{"error":false,"id":["154651"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":154651,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154651","日期":"2024-07-10","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-23-19","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第19次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":19,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[23],"委員會代碼:str":["交通委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第19次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-07-10T11:29:12+08:00","結束時間":"2024-07-10T11:43:05+08:00","影片長度":"00:13:53","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f8f813bdaa6a3a74157345d751ed3a12a67bbd165341284486d6197b49c015b13e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡其昌","委員發言時間":"11:29:12 - 11:43:05","會議時間":"2024-07-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長李孟諺就「TPASS通勤月票辦理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":423,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（11時29分）謝謝主席，請李部長。"],["主席：請李部長。"],["李部長孟諺：委員好。"],["蔡委員其昌：部長好，部長，TPASS上路1年了嘛！"],["李部長孟諺：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：在疫後特別預算裡面，我們編了3年200億的經費來做這個TPASS，本席非常支持，我認為這個對上班族來講都是很好的政策，對於民眾的滿意度，你們做過調查嗎？"],["李部長孟諺：現在正在做，因為剛滿週年，我們正在做調查。"],["蔡委員其昌：現在在調查中？"],["李部長孟諺：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：你自己預估民眾的滿意度大概會多高？"],["李部長孟諺：目前來講，這個政策的負評是所有交通政策裡面負評比較少的。"],["蔡委員其昌：當然啦！"],["李部長孟諺：我個人對於滿意度會到什麼程度，我目前沒有……"],["蔡委員其昌：好，我希望你們積極去……滿意度是一定會滿意，因為政府3年編了200億來協助上班族，減輕他們的負擔，這一定是滿意；我的意思是，在滿意度之外，我們要透過這個調查把不滿意的部分找出來，然後把它加以改正。"],["李部長孟諺：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：我看了一下交通部相關的一些統計數據，如果我們以臺灣各地區來做比較的話，可以很清楚的從數據上面看到，其實基隆北北桃核定的預算數跟核撥的預算數都是最高，換言之，這個地方的公共運輸，不論是軌道或者是公共運輸網絡的比例跟密度一定相對較高，因為人數差距不會很遠，但為什麼核定預算數到預算撥付數，基隆北北桃都比中部跟南部來得高？就各生活圈購買人數、使用人數以及跨區使用的情形，從使用量可以看到，基北北桃的使用量很明顯大過於中彰投苗跟南高屏，倍數非常驚人，臺中大概才兩千多萬，南高屏還有四千多萬，到了基北北桃大概快五億，所以很明顯，這個幾乎是不成比例，為什麼不成比例呢？其實我們用常識就可以知道，這跟公共運輸的量能、密度都很有關係，我們從TPASS這個好政策的實施反過來講，更顯示出中彰投苗交通建設的緩慢或者是貧乏，當然這個事情不能完全怪交通部，因為中彰投苗也有地方政府，地方政府對於自己城市交通建設的積極度也有很大的關係，但是不管怎麼樣，交通部作為國家整個交通主管及督導機關，我覺得這個事情不能置身事外。","本席作為臺中選出來的立委，特別是臺中海線選出來的立委，本席還是要回過頭來看這個問題，從TPASS來看我們臺中交通建設的問題。我最近看到臺中市政府送了橘線的案子，當然藍線也還沒開始動，不過橘線已送，這個本席不反對，多線齊發嘛！趕快讓臺中捷運的交通網絡能夠早日核定、得到中央的補助，本席在過去這麼多年來持續爭取，所以市政府送案速度快，本席並不反對，但是本席對橘線就非常非常的有意見，如果部長瞭解臺中的地理狀況就可以知道，捷運橘線001站叫做清泉崗國際機場，清泉崗國際機場離海線清水市區大概3公里，我也把圖標出來給大家看一下。但是對於市政府，本席已經講過很多次，本席是中央民代，市政府大概也不太鳥我，這短短的3公里卻不願意把它規劃進去，我看了市政府送到交通部的案子裡面依然沒有這3公里，這3公里可以串連高鐵，可以讓海線過去長期發展最重要的城鎮──清水鎮整個腹地都可以整個包進去，但市政府卻不送案。本席再三強調，對於市政府，當然市長有他的權力，本席尊重他對於整個城市的規劃發展，因為他是民選的市長，但是送到中央來的案子，只要沒有把清水納進去，本席對於中央經費補助預算就大有意見，所以我在這裡先預告，因為這只是送案審查，未來要通過整個細部設計到綜合規劃還有一段時間，對於補助款項的撥補還有一段時間，但本席現在先講，我再講一次，如果橘線沒有把清水納入，本席對於中央的補助就會有很強烈的反對意見，我希望臺中發展，但不可以老是把海線給忘了，海線已經是相對落後的地方，這3公里不把它補起來，就交通專業來講、區域發展而言，這都是很不正義的事情。所以你們TPASS做得再好、滿意度再高，對我們那裡的人來講感覺很低，為什麼感覺很低？我們那裡就沒有捷運可以坐，那這個TPASS有什麼用？對不對？","海線雙軌我們爭取那麼久，還好我們當時把整個臺中環線做切割，本席在當副院長的時候做切割，要求不可以把海線的雙軌化跟環線一起評估，如果一起評估，到現在還在評估嘛！所以我們當時把它切割，讓雙軌化單獨進行評估，所以今年1月中央相關的可行性評估才可以通過，為什麼要切割？因為雙軌化不做，我們海線的火車班次就會非常的少，都會集中在山線，而海線到今天都還在單軌，所以總算我們做了一件對的事情，你們也從善如流，遵照本席的意見，把它做了切割。","今年完成了可行性評估，接下來進入細部設計跟綜合規劃，雙軌化完成之後，對於你們的TPASS，總算我們才會有感覺一點，因為我們的火車班次增多了，我們海線要去高鐵、要到南北搭火車的時候，我們使用這個TPASS的頻率才會高，人次才會高，否則中央定了再好的政策，都只是強化那個區域的不公平，都只是強化了區域的不正義。","所以本席今天要探討的是，從我們海線的例子來告訴交通部，當然我講過，市政府要怎麼規劃、線路要怎麼劃，這是它的權力，但是中央在面對地方政府上來爭取經費的時候，對於這個區域的公平性、對於區域的正義一定要堅持住，本席這個要求不是不合理，如果我要求你把這個路線再拉個20公里、30公里到某一個地方，說實在話，本位主義太強，但是海線的鐵路雙軌化，橘線延伸到清水，其實這個都是政府應該做的，沒有道理山線塞得要命，火車密集到那個程度，然後火車排不進去，但是海線卻放任它單軌，所以交通部先做了一件對的事情，海線讓它雙軌了，當然接下來的施工要快，而且接下來橘線短短的3公里，就可以串接起海線一個非常大的區域，但你卻做到這裡，市政府不規劃，交通部沒意見，我沒有辦法要求市長，但我可以要求部長，接下來市府與你們相關的，捷運橘線的會議跟溝通裡面，一定要把本席的意見予以強烈的表達，否則的話，本席會認為這個就是強化的區域不正義，再一次強化區域的不正義，所以我希望部長可以重視這個問題。"],["李部長孟諺：是，也跟委員報告，像現在臺中只有一條綠線；不過藍線目前已經有比較好的進展，在過去委員多次的催促跟協助，現在藍線已經在進行設計的階段，只要基設經過工程會審議通過之後，就可以進入辦理相關發包的階段，所以我想藍線已經進入、接近實質建設的階段；現在的橘線看起來在規劃上就是缺了往清水這一段是不是要延伸，這部分我們會跟臺中市政府再做溝通，看這個部分怎麼樣讓大家的期待可以得到實現。"],["蔡委員其昌：我知道部長對於臺中市政府，你不能要求市長應怎麼規劃，我也不能要求市長應怎麼規劃，但是別忘了，臺中市要蓋橘線，必須要有中央的支持，中央如果不支持經費，這個橘線是不可能蓋的，所以我希望在審查的時候，你一定要跟市政府講，這個是蔡其昌堅持、強烈要求的，沒有做到這個事情，我覺得這個就太離譜、太荒謬了。海線不是二等公民，海線雖然人口沒有市區多，但是都叫臺中市，長期把海線放在旁邊，遺棄在旁邊，讓海線的人當二等公民、三等公民，這合理嗎？這短短、一小段的路，不僅讓運量可以增加，如果市長是由我來當，我就把它延伸到臺中港，就是再連接到臺中港，那又是3公里而已，臺中港現在發展成這個樣子，然後你不把它做個連結，我也覺得很荒謬，好啦！這個是後話啦！重點就是不可以再放任，中央一定要強烈表達，對於相關規劃、專業以及區域公平的問題，這3公里沒有道理不做。","最後一個是藍線，時間關係，本來我今天沒有要問，但部長也提到了，本席這麼多年來幫忙、推動中央對藍線相關經費的協助，我要問的只有一個問題，本席要求港務公司跟捷運共構，關於這個案子，交通部你們已經承諾，當時的行政院陳建仁院長也承諾本席，臺中港務公司的大樓已經老舊了，臺中港長期沒有新的辦公大樓，且捷運站在那個地方共構，我看市政府也改了圖，到底藍線到臺中港港務公司這一站新大樓的規劃，有沒有同時如期的在進行？"],["李部長孟諺：是不是會後我們再把比較詳細的資料來跟委員報告？"],["蔡委員其昌：好。就是把進度跟我講一下，因為你們已經承諾要做了，但是現在進度跟時程到底怎麼抓，還有跟藍線的配合度，這個一定要把它連結起來。謝謝。"],["主席：蔡其昌委員發言完畢。現在請黃健豪委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":142,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-19","speakers":["李昆澤","陳素月","廖先翔","何欣純","林國成","林俊憲","許智傑","黃健豪","魯明哲","陳雪生","林沛祥","蔡其昌","邱若華","牛煦庭","陳俊宇","游顥"],"page_start":99,"meetingDate":["2024-07-10"],"gazette_id":"1137301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部部長李孟諺就「TPASS 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不過局限也送 這個本席不反對多線齊發嘛 趕快讓台中的捷運的交通網絡能夠早日來核定 然後得到中央的補助 這個過去本席這麼多年來持續的在爭取所以市政府送案的速度快 本席並不反對但是呢 本席對局限我就非常非常的有意見"},{"start":293.676,"end":302.966,"text":"那如果部長你了解臺中的這個這個地理狀況你就可以知道捷運局線這個001站叫做清泉崗國際機場那清泉崗國際機場離我們海線就清水市區大概3公里"},{"start":312.2,"end":336.261,"text":"大概3公里我也把圖標出來給大家看一下大概3公里但是市政府本席已經講過很多次但是本席是中央民代市政府大概也不大鳥我那所以這個短短的3公里卻不願意把它規劃進去所以我看了市政府送到交通部的案子裡面還是依然沒有這3公里"},{"start":337.992,"end":362.125,"text":"這三公里串聯了可以串聯高鐵可以讓海線過去發展長期最重要的一個城鎮就清水鎮覆地都可以整個包進去但市政府卻不送案所以本席我一直講過我再三強調這個市政府當然市長有他的權利他對於整個城市的規劃發展本席尊重因為他是民選的市長"},{"start":363.117,"end":372.673,"text":"但是啊 送到中央來的案子只要沒有把清水納進去本期對經費 中央經費補助預算本期就大有意見"},{"start":374.133,"end":400.993,"text":"本席就大有意見所以我會在這裡就先預告因為這個只是送案來審查那你要通過到未來整個細部設計到綜合規劃細部設計還有一段時間所以對於補助款項的撥補還有一段時間但本席現在先講我現在再講一次如果局限沒有把清水納入"},{"start":402.154,"end":431.013,"text":"本席對於中央的補助我就會有很強烈的反對意見我希望台中發展但不可以老是把海線給忘了海線已經相對落後的地方這3公里不把它補起來就交通專業來講就區域的發展而言這個都認為是很不正義的事情所以你的TPASS做得再好滿意度再高對我們那裡的人來講感覺很低"},{"start":432.202,"end":436.228,"text":"為什麼感覺很低?我們問一下就沒有捷運堂多但是這TPASS對我們是什麼留言?"},{"start":438.493,"end":465.721,"text":"海線雙軌我們爭取那麼久還好我們當時把整個台中環線做切割本席在當副院長的時候切割啊要求不可以把海線的雙軌化跟環線一起評估一起評估到現在還在評估嘛所以我們當時把它切割讓雙軌化單獨進行評估所以才可以在今年1月啊這個通過"},{"start":466.92,"end":467.944,"text":"這個"},{"start":468.877,"end":494.161,"text":"中央的這個相關的這些可行性評估才可以通過那為什麼要切割因為雙軌化不做我們海線的火車班次就非常的少都會集中在山線而海線到今天還在單軌所以總算我們做了一件對的事情你們也這個從善如流遵照本席的意見把它做切割所以今天可以完成可行性評估接下來進入細部設計跟這個綜合規劃"},{"start":499.63,"end":525.546,"text":"那雙軌化完成之後我們總算才對譬如說你的TPASS我們會有感覺一點是因為我們的火車班次增多了我們海線要去高鐵要到要南北這個做鐵路的時候我們使用這個TPASS的頻率才會高嘛人次才會高嘛否則你中央訂了再好的政策都只是強化那個區域的不公平都只是強化了區域的不正義"},{"start":527.045,"end":549.663,"text":"所以本席今天要探討的是從我們海線的例子來告訴交通部當你們對於地方政府當然我講過市政府要怎麼規劃線路要怎麼畫這是他的權利啦但是中央在面對地方政府要上來爭取經費的時候對於這個區域的公平性啊對於區域的正義一定要這個堅持"},{"start":551.141,"end":569.434,"text":"那本席這個要求不是不合理嗎如果說我要求你把這路線再拉個20公里30公里到某一個地方這個其實是說實在話本位主義太強但是海線的鐵路雙軌化局限延伸到清水其實這個都是"},{"start":571.707,"end":588.342,"text":"政府應該做的沒有道理海線山線塞得要命大家火車密集到那個程度然後火車排不進去但是海線卻放任他這個當軌所以交通部先做了一件對的事情海線讓他雙軌"},{"start":590.593,"end":618.763,"text":"那當然接下來施工要快接下來局限短短的這個3公里就可以串接起這個海線阿非常大的一個區域但你卻到這裡市政府不規劃那交通部沒意見所以我沒有辦法要求市長但我可以要求部長在接下來市府的你們相關的對決運局限的會議跟溝通裡面一定要把本期的意見強烈的表達"},{"start":620.291,"end":631.881,"text":"強烈的表達否則的話本席會認為這個就是強化的區域不正義啦再一次強化區域的不正義所以這一點我希望部長可以來重視這個問題"},{"start":634.308,"end":659.849,"text":"也跟委員報告就是像現在臺中現在只有一條綠線不過藍線目前已經有比較好的進展在過去委員多次的這個催促跟協助現在藍線已經在進行設計的階段那只要機設經過工程會的審議通過之後就可以來辦理相關的發包的階段所以我想藍線已經進入接近實質建設的階段"},{"start":661.61,"end":689.79,"text":"那現在局限目前看起來規劃上就是缺這個往清水這一段的是不是來延伸那這部分我們會來跟臺中市政府再做溝通那來看怎麼樣讓這個部分的這個大家的期待能夠可以得到來實現這是我只是部長講說我知道啦你對臺中市政府的你也不能要求市長怎麼規劃我也不能要求市長怎麼規劃"},{"start":690.931,"end":709.802,"text":"但是別忘了臺中市局限要蓋他必須要中央來支持經費中央如果不支持這個局限是不可能可以蓋的所以我希望在審查的時候你一定要跟市政府講這個是蔡其昌堅持強烈要求"},{"start":711.089,"end":737.863,"text":"沒有做到這個事情我覺得這個是太荒謬的事太離譜太荒謬了海線不是二等公民啊海線雖然人口沒有市區多啊但是都叫台中市啊登記把海線放在旁邊儀器在旁邊讓海線的人當二等公民三等公民這合理嗎這個短短的一小段的路然後可以讓運量也可以增加然後他其實如果如果啦"},{"start":739.534,"end":759.28,"text":"這個市長是我來當我就把他拉到台中港了啦我再連接台中港那又是三公里而已嘛台中港現在發展成這個樣子然後你不把他連結這個我也覺得很荒謬好啦這個後話啦重點就是不可以再放任中央一定要強烈表達"},{"start":761.627,"end":789.849,"text":"對於這個規劃專業以及區域公平的問題這三公里沒有道理不做最後一個藍線剛剛本來我今天沒有要問了時間關係但部長也提到了本席這麼多年來在幫忙協助推動藍線中央的這些相關的經費的協助然後我要問的只有一個問題那個本席要求那個港務公司跟捷運共購這個案子交通部有沒有如你們已經承諾嘛這個當時的行政院"},{"start":790.919,"end":815.305,"text":"也承諾本席臺中港務公司的大樓已經老舊了臺中港長期沒有新的辦公大樓那捷運站在那個地方供購市政府我看他也改了圖了那我們到底這個南線到了這個臺中港港務公司的這一站這個新大樓的規劃有沒有同時如期的在進行"},{"start":817.63,"end":830.674,"text":"是不是會後我們把比較詳細的資料跟委員報告就是把進度跟我講一下啦因為你們已經承諾要做了嘛但是現在進度跟時程到底怎麼抓跟藍線的配合度這個一定要能夠把它連結起來好 謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}