{"error":false,"id":["154658"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":154658,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154658","日期":"2024-07-10","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-20-21","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第21次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":21,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[20],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第21次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-07-10T12:07:24+08:00","結束時間":"2024-07-10T12:18:54+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:30","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f8f0dd07436ac0d5a2a39103cf15d5982f2ae364a75fc925654034e7fd9a14e5935ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅明才","委員發言時間":"12:07:24 - 12:18:54","會議時間":"2024-07-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「數位貨幣發行之規劃與貨幣之數位轉型」、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、數位發展部就「創造金融科技創新發展空間與扶植金融科技業」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【7月8日及10日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":1029,"blocks":[["羅委員明才：（12時7分）主席、各位委員、出列席官員，大家好。主席，可否請央行總裁？"],["主席：有請楊金龍總裁。"],["羅委員明才：以及數位發展部林宜敬政務次長。"],["主席：有請林次。"],["楊總裁金龍：羅委員早。"],["羅委員明才：還有金融研訓院的林副院長。"],["主席：請金融研訓院林副院長。"],["羅委員明才：大家好，那我想請教一下楊總裁，我們現在要開始發行數位新臺幣，意味著我手上的鈔票即將要告別、慢慢的減少，從大概50年前到現在新臺幣使用的情況，一般民眾開始用手機支付或者是代收代支等等，有很多新的產品都出現了，那現在新臺幣的使用比率大概剩下多少？有很多年輕人身上都不帶錢，因為用不到啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：是，我想基本上還是有一部分的人喜歡用現金。"],["羅委員明才：大概百分之多少？"],["楊總裁金龍：有三兆多，也就是說，目前流通在市場上的現金是三兆多。"],["羅委員明才：三兆多？"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["羅委員明才：比率大概是多少？"],["楊總裁金龍：比率占我們的……"],["羅委員明才：20年前我們都沒有什麼手機的支付等等，我們出門就是一定要帶厚厚的一疊現金，在前幾年COVID-19時代來臨的時候，大家都不敢碰錢，因為怕錢上面有細菌，政府也在不斷的引導大家儘量不要用紙張統一發票，要用電子雲端發票，不要去接觸錢，因為鈔票變成細菌傳染一個很重要的來源。"],["楊總裁金龍：不過在委員講到這個的時候，我也藉這個機會來澄清、說明一下，事實上在COVID-19的時候，很多先進國家特別像歐洲的英格蘭銀行、ECB歐元區的央行，他們跟我們中央銀行也都一樣的，都很關心COVID的virus會不會透過鈔券來傳遞，結果他們實驗的結果是不會，很低，所以我才會說……"],["羅委員明才：為什麼不會？"],["楊總裁金龍：委員在講這個的時候，我想我也藉這個機會來說明。"],["羅委員明才：請問一下總裁，這個病菌停留在一千塊……"],["楊總裁金龍：它很快就……"],["羅委員明才：停留在鈔票上，它的存活時間有多久？"],["楊總裁金龍：很短，我想我請發行局，當時我們……"],["羅委員明才：因為停在一千塊的……"],["楊總裁金龍：當時我們針對這個問題也討論很久。"],["羅委員明才：是不是可以請說明一下？"],["楊總裁金龍：好，請發行局來說明一下。"],["羅委員明才：因為大家都覺得這個市場、夜市出來的錢，感覺都髒兮兮的、怕怕的。"],["鄧局長延達：報告委員，這個Bank of England、BIS他們都有研究，其實virus透過鈔券傳播的機率非常非常低，而且我們鈔券一直有回籠整理，整理的時間都是一個月以上，所以鈔券再發出來，病菌已經死掉了。"],["羅委員明才：好，謝謝。請總裁，我們看到全世界慢慢的都不使用鈔票了，改用電子支付、手機支付，這變成是全世界先進國家必須要走的一條道路。"],["楊總裁金龍：是啦，沒有錯，委員講得沒有錯，事實上，臺灣也是朝這一方向在走。"],["羅委員明才：請問一下總裁，剛剛我手上拿的那個鈔票最後會不會消失不見？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，在我們可預見的將來，鈔券還是會存在的，現金還是會存在的。"],["羅委員明才：以十年前跟現在來比的話，我們現在真正使用鈔票的比率占平常交易量的多少百分比？"],["楊總裁金龍：它是慢慢在下降。"],["羅委員明才：所以使用現金的越來越少嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：是在下降的，沒有錯。"],["羅委員明才：那它的比率？"],["楊總裁金龍：準確的比率我現在記不起來，但是我知道它是在下降的。"],["羅委員明才：這個下降的速度快不快？大概剩下不到三、四十趴了。"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦，我們同事給我的資料是，2017年到2023年國內現金支付的金額由6.24兆降至4.03兆，就已經降下來了。"],["羅委員明才：這個下降比率大概是多少？"],["楊總裁金龍：如果說占GDP的比重，因為我們的GDP是越來越高的嘛。"],["羅委員明才：18兆啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：對啊，我們的GDP越來越高，使用現金的是越來越少，那當然占GDP的比重就越來越少，這是第一個。另外，非現金支付由3.09兆增至7.27兆，所以委員的說法沒有錯。"],["羅委員明才：這個不是我的說法啦，是全世界很多數據顯示。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有錯，我剛剛也跟委員講，臺灣也是一樣的。"],["羅委員明才：楊總裁，當你拿到我們未來在臺灣使用的數位新臺幣，不知道長得什麼樣子。"],["楊總裁金龍：數位新臺幣你是看不到的。"],["羅委員明才：看不到？"],["楊總裁金龍：因為它就像一個虛擬的工具。"],["羅委員明才：可是我們那天去財金公司，……"],["楊總裁金龍：但是它有錢包啊！"],["羅委員明才：你給我一張……"],["楊總裁金龍：那個是卡片，那個卡片我們有設計一個離線式的，離線式的會有兩種，離線就是說網路沒辦法處理的時候，你也可以透過手機來離線支付，另外一個就是用卡片。"],["羅委員明才：是。"],["楊總裁金龍：卡片也是啊！就是離線的。"],["羅委員明才：那總裁你有沒有帶數位新臺幣的卡片？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，今天抱歉啦！那一天是給各位參觀的。"],["羅委員明才：那是不是借看一下？"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦，就是這個。"],["羅委員明才：可不可以借我看一下？"],["楊總裁金龍：好，那是一個測試。"],["羅委員明才：手上拿的這張卡是臺灣未來發行的數位新臺幣，希望無窮。請問楊總裁，當你拿到這張卡片開始使用，第一筆你在臺灣要購買什麼？"],["楊總裁金龍：不過，我跟委員報告，這個是離線的啦，基本上我們要發展的CBDC，它是在手機裡面的，它是虛擬的、數位的，這個只是說離線的時候你可以用手機，也可以用卡片，而不是說CBDC就是用卡片來發行的，這個必須要做一個明確的說明。"],["羅委員明才：請問總裁，未來這張卡片的最大額度是多少？"],["楊總裁金龍：現在還沒有，我記得委員也曾經講，因為有記名不記名，還有額度，一般來講都是說一萬塊，我也記得委員有說一萬塊恐怕是太少，不過，目前都還沒有做最後的決定，事實上呢，委員的意見我們會參考。"],["羅委員明才：我們希望這個速度可以快一點，因為現在的院長說是AI行動內閣，因此所有事情包括使用鈔票，還是三十年、五十年前的那個思維的話，就跟不上潮流了。"],["楊總裁金龍：我想社會支付的習慣，還有數位的要求是漸進式的，而且也是在進步當中，不會像委員說的，這個還是三十年前、四十年前的思維，不會。我跟委員報告，事實上現在臺灣的支付是多元化的。"],["羅委員明才：那請問一下總裁，未來的數位新臺幣上面要用玉山還是要用孫中山？因為我有看到……"],["楊總裁金龍：我們在此就用我們鈔票上的帝雉，這個只是試驗的，不必當真，說這個就是未來的數位貨幣，不是，如同剛剛我在澄清的，那個是在離線的時候使用的，是一個備案。"],["羅委員明才：總裁，這樣子啦，因為這邊畫了一隻鳥，我是建議，因為日本最近的鈔票都在改版，我建議在上面可以放一個黃仁勳，因為當我們拿數字貨幣，上面有黃仁勳的時候，到美國也可以通，因為全世界現在都認識臺灣之光黃仁勳，臺灣要走向世界，走向AI未來十年、二十年的發展，就把他放上去，會更具臺灣的代表性。"],["楊總裁金龍：我覺得委員的建議很有創意啦，不過這個可以做參考，謝謝。"],["羅委員明才：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅明才委員的質詢。","接著請鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在。","洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員不在。","蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在。","楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員不在。","何欣純委員、何欣純委員、何欣純委員不在。","今天登記發言的委員均已詢答完畢，本次會議做如下決定：報告及詢答完畢。二、委員質詢及未答復或請補充資訊者，請相關部會於一週內以書面答復，委員另有要求期限者則從其所定。三、委員楊瓊瓔、李坤城所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關部會以書面答復。四、本次會議議程已進行完畢，倘有不在場委員補提書面質詢，一併列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請議事人員協助處理。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-21","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","顏寬恒","吳秉叡","賴士葆","王世堅","李彥秀","王鴻薇","葛如鈞","賴惠員","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅明才","楊瓊瓔","李坤城"],"page_start":211,"meetingDate":["2024-07-10"],"gazette_id":"1137301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137301_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「數位貨幣發行之規劃與貨幣之數位轉型」、金融監督管理委員會彭\n主任委員金隆、數位發展部就「創造金融科技創新發展空間與扶植金融科技業」進行專題報告，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137301_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":1.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.00534375,"end":3.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.840343750000001,"end":5.684093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.021593750000001,"end":7.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.64159375,"end":8.755343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.160343750000003,"end":10.071593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.19409375,"end":10.054718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.071593750000002,"end":10.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.814093750000001,"end":12.012218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.012218750000002,"end":15.302843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.84284375,"end":18.610343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.028468750000002,"end":16.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.58534375,"end":18.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.06159375,"end":28.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.718468750000003,"end":29.258468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.06846875,"end":31.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.941593750000003,"end":32.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.67971875,"end":36.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.565343750000004,"end":40.868468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.05409375,"end":42.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.994718750000004,"end":43.55159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.665343750000005,"end":45.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":45.86346875,"end":47.517218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.88846875,"end":49.98096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.50409375,"end":51.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.174718750000004,"end":57.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.119093750000005,"end":64.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.22409375,"end":60.274718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.56096875,"end":66.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.34534375,"end":68.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.34096875,"end":68.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEA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來說明一下事實上在COVID-19的時候很多先進國家特別像歐洲像Bengalang還有像ECB歐元區的央行"},{"start":162.148,"end":176.014,"text":"他們跟我們中央銀行都一樣的都是很關心是不是鈔卷會COVID的這個virus呢是不是會透過鈔卷來傳遞出去結果呢他們那個實驗的結果呢不會"},{"start":180.182,"end":186.145,"text":"很低。所以我才會說﹖為什麼不會?委員在講這個的時候,我想我也藉這個機會來說。請問一下總裁,這個病菌停留在"},{"start":195.235,"end":208.429,"text":"一千塊停留在鈔票上,他的存活時間有多久?很短,很短,我想我要請我們的發行局,當時我們針對這個問題,我們都討論很久,我們也自己,我請我們的發行局來說明一下。"},{"start":219.349,"end":235.291,"text":"因為大家都覺得這個市場有時候流流這個夜市什麼出來那起來感覺都髒髒兮兮的怕怕的報告委員這個Bengal England還是BIS他們都有研究其實鈔券的這個"},{"start":237.267,"end":237.467,"text":"謝謝,那請總裁"},{"start":262.025,"end":289.514,"text":"我們看到全世界慢慢的不使用鈔票用電子支付、用手機支付變成是一個全世界先進國家也必須要走的一條道路是啦,沒有錯,委員講的都沒有錯事實上台灣也是在朝這個方向在走那請問一下總裁最後我們看到剛剛我手上拿的那個鈔票會不會消失不見"},{"start":291.137,"end":312.698,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說在我們可預見的將來我們可預見的將來鈔券還是會存在的現金還是會存在的那以10年前跟現在來比的話我們現在真正使用鈔票的比率是佔平常交易量的剩下多少%"},{"start":313.419,"end":313.699,"text":"拜訪議員．羅明"},{"start":334.833,"end":336.654,"text":"我們同事給我們那個我們就說2017年到2023年國內現金的支付金額由6.24兆降至4.03兆"},{"start":349.795,"end":350.735,"text":"非現金的支付由3.09兆增至7.27兆"},{"start":376.844,"end":380.465,"text":"楊總裁,當你拿到了我們未來在台灣使用的數位新台幣,不知道長得什麼樣子?"},{"start":399.668,"end":423.281,"text":"數位新台幣,你是看不到的。看不到?是啊,你是看不到,因為它就是一個,就像一個虛擬的東西。可是我們那天去財經公司。但是它有錢包啊。你給我一張。沒有,那個是卡片。那個是,那個是卡片。那個卡片是在,我們有一個設計的那個呢,是什麼?就是那個離線式的。"},{"start":426.422,"end":453.318,"text":"離線式的話會有兩種離線的話就是說你網路沒辦法處理的時候呢那麼你也可以透過手機來離線支付那另外一個就是用卡片那卡片也是啊卡片也是啊就是離線的總裁你有沒有帶那個數位新台幣的卡片沒有啦今天抱歉啦那一天是給各位參觀的那個是不是借看一下馬上就帶了齁對啦對啦這個啦"},{"start":455.919,"end":456.199,"text":"手上"},{"start":476.368,"end":505.053,"text":"拿到這張卡這是台灣未來發行的數位新台幣希望無窮請問楊總裁當你拿到這張卡片開始使用了你第一筆在台灣你要購買什麼不過我跟委員報告這個是講離線的啦基本上我們要發展的CBDC它是在手機裡面的啦"},{"start":505.553,"end":506.434,"text":"這是一個明確的說明。"},{"start":524.674,"end":552.903,"text":"那請問總裁未來的這張卡片它的最大額度是多少現在還沒有我們現在就是說我記得委員也在講就是說因為有記名不記名還有就是說額度嘛那一般來講的話都是說一萬塊嘛那我也記得委員就說這個一萬塊恐怕是太少啦不過呢這是因為現在目前都還沒有"},{"start":554.943,"end":582.43,"text":"做最後的一個決定的時候事實上委員的一個意見我們會參考我們希望這個速度可以快一點因為數位台灣現在的院長他現在說是AI行動內閣如果行動內閣所有的事情這個包括使用鈔票還用30年50年的那個思維的話就跟不上潮流了"},{"start":583.491,"end":605.63,"text":"我想社會的支付的習慣還有數位的一個要求呢他是漸進式的而且也是在進步當中的啦也不會又說像委員在講又說這個還是30年前40年前的不會因為現在的支付台灣我跟委員報告事實上呢台灣的支付呢他是多元化的"},{"start":606.932,"end":618.724,"text":"請問一下總裁未來的數位新台幣你上面是要用玉山還是要用孫中山?我們在這裡我們就用我們的鈔票的那個地址"},{"start":624.93,"end":625.35,"text":"總裁總裁這樣子的齁?"},{"start":644.164,"end":655.465,"text":"因為這邊是放一隻鳥我是建議因為日本最近日圓它都在改版我建議在上面你可以放一個黃仁勳"},{"start":658.022,"end":678.527,"text":"因為當我們拿數字貨幣上面有黃仁勳的時候拿著這張卡到美國也可以通因為全世界現在都認識台灣之光黃仁勳所以我們希望台灣要走向世界走向AI未來10年20年的發展就是把它放上去"},{"start":679.787,"end":690.179,"text":"謝謝!"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}