{"error":false,"id":["154676"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":154676,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154676","日期":"2024-07-11","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-36-37","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第37次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":37,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第37次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-07-11T09:24:49+08:00","結束時間":"2024-07-11T09:36:37+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:48","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/90adb50f95b06db97bf1f9afe1586b6ce6fdecbb7cc8faa7beb11409451ce229290f8695fcfb382c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:24:49 - 09:36:37","會議時間":"2024-07-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第37次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員羅智強等27人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之二條文草案」案。\n（四）委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條條文修正草案」案。）","gazette":{"lineno":167,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時24分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請次長。"],["主席：麻煩次長。"],["徐次長錫祥：委員早。"],["黃委員國昌：次長好。臺灣社會對於有權有勢的人竟然可以去關說司法，真的是深惡痛絕啊！一般的小老百姓，不管是走進地檢署還是走進法院，都是誠惶誠恐，委任律師當他們的代理人或辯護人來主張他們訴訟上面的權益，但是卻有一群明明在這個社會上面已經掌握了相當高權力的人，包括我們的法官，法官去關說司法；也包括了我們位高權重的政治人物，去關說檢察官，不要對他所涉入的刑事案件來提起上訴；更離譜的，還有幹過法務部部長的邱太三，去找桃園地檢署檢察長彭坤業，幫富商逃稅5億的案子進行關說，明明沒認罪還要關說，叫檢察長去施壓桃園地檢署的檢察官，讓他進行認罪協商。這些過去實際上面的亂象，讓我們行政院院長卓榮泰前幾天在院會備詢的時候，說臺灣是民主國家，不會有壓案的事情，我不知道他是脫離現實，還是準備要說謊！這明明全部都是具體發生過的事情，針對這些案子最後的結果是怎麼樣，次長你知道嗎？有任何人受到任何的刑事處罰嗎？請教次長。"],["徐次長錫祥：沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有吧？"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["黃委員國昌：這樣子的結果，我相信沒有人可以接受，這就是為什麼我們今天要來這邊審不法關說罪、妨害司法公正罪，不可以讓這些違法濫權的人繼續逍遙法外，享受一般人所沒有的特權。","第二個問題，在權貴犯罪的脈絡裡，我們常常發現，我們權貴犯罪的司法審判程序通常會拖很久，有拖到5年、10年、15年的，好不容易確定了，人卻跑了，讓我們的刑事刑罰權沒有辦法獲得落實，這也是為什麼我們今天要處理棄保潛逃罪的問題。其實這兩件事在2017年司改國是會議的時候都做出了決議，到現在研議了7年，次長，對於這樣的速度，你能夠接受嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員，我想法律的修改，有時候也不是完全看時效，因為學說上的甲說、乙說，學者很多人有不同的見解，像我們最近的討論也是一樣，光一個法律上的用語，可能會有不同的解釋，所以才會開了11次的協商會議，我想在制定的過程中，的確大家很用心，但為要求慎重，所以才會這樣，不過這個法案現在文字上大概都已完成，陳核後再送到司法院，然後再會銜，很快的應該就會送到大院來。"],["黃委員國昌：好，我們希望啦！針對這些明顯的法律漏洞，幫權貴犯罪開的後門，其實討論得越久，拖得越久，這個後門就存在得越久，只要不完成立法，我就繼續幹，我就繼續跑；我就繼續幹，我就繼續去關說司法；沒人可以拿我怎麼樣，我就繼續棄保潛逃，也不會有任何法律效果。","今天剛好要處理棄保潛逃的問題，有一件事情要請教一下次長，檢察官向法院聲請羈押的時候，有時候符合羈押的要件，但法院認為沒有必要性，所以會用具保的方式來替代，問題是我們在羈押的事由裡面除了有逃亡之虞以外，還有什麼呢？"],["徐次長錫祥：重罪、串證。"],["黃委員國昌：串證嘛！滅證嘛！"],["徐次長錫祥：對。"],["黃委員國昌：好。如果今天他沒有跑，我們用1,200萬給他交保，但是他跑去串證，他跑去滅證，違反一開始的時候法院沒有給他羈押，只是給他具保，但叫他不可以去接觸證人；如果有去接觸證人的話，這個時候的法律效果是什麼？"],["徐次長錫祥：這個會再裁定羈押。"],["黃委員國昌：會再聲請羈押？"],["徐次長錫祥：對。"],["黃委員國昌：我們現在的具保，保的到底是什麼？只有保他會到庭嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：就是以防他逃匿以及將來執行不到案，就會沒入保證金。"],["黃委員國昌：所以只有保他到不到庭？"],["徐次長錫祥：對。"],["黃委員國昌：如果他違反法院的命令，那個具保的錢會沒收嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：不會，會再聲請執行羈押。"],["黃委員國昌：所以我們把法律效果說清楚，今天不管具保多少錢，具保了以後，就只是擔保他會到庭，沒有辦法擔保他會不會滅證、他會不會串供，如果他違反法院的命令，我們目前的效果是向法院再聲請羈押，如果未來我們在修法上面，把它進一步擴及到除了向法院聲請羈押以外，他違反之前交保的時候法院所為的命令，一併的把他具保的金額沒入，法務部贊不贊成？"],["徐次長錫祥：刑訴法不是我們主管的法律。"],["黃委員國昌：我知道啦！但臺灣現在刑事司法的荒謬就在這裡，刑法跟刑訴、實體法跟訴訟法像是雙胞胎一樣，一體兩面，結果一個法務部管、一個司法院管，這兩者之間必須要有一個很好的統合機制。我今天不會請你代表司法院發言，所以從法務部的立場，我剛剛那樣子就立法方向提出的建議，法務部贊不贊成？"],["徐次長錫祥：我們帶回去研議好了。"],["黃委員國昌：請好好研議。"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["黃委員國昌：因為我覺得這些事情，像怎麼樣確保國家的刑事司法權能夠落實，這是一個非常嚴肅而重要的問題。"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["黃委員國昌：下一個我要追的事情是88會館的調查報告，我上次去高檢署的時候，高檢署已經承認了，說一開始調查報告的內容是不實的，這88會館裡面聚集了非常多的權貴犯罪，過去這兩年我們看了非常非常的多，結果一開始連高檢署做出來的行政調查報告，內容都是虛偽不實，然後我在5月15號的時候，那個時候黃謀信次長跟我承諾說，高檢署會修正報告，而且會儘速公布，現在快兩個月了，東西在哪裡？"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員，本部的確在113年4月17號有函請臺高檢再釐清，據報確實有88會館人員出入，將提給懲戒法院來審酌，所以是提過去了。"],["黃委員國昌：不是啦！給懲戒法院是一回事，那個是被彈劾所以提給懲戒法院，現在我的問題是，你們高檢署的行政調查報告避重就輕，我追了半天，你們答應說高檢署會儘速公布修正的報告，可是我等到今天都還沒看到啊！"],["徐次長錫祥：的確當時是根據相關人員陳述所做的認定，並沒有調查不實……"],["黃委員國昌：就被騙了嘛！"],["徐次長錫祥：後來再追查的結果，是有88會館人員出入，但是不是有女陪侍的那一種……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，你們修正的報告什麼時候要公布？跳票了啊！我是給你們兩個月的時間！"],["徐次長錫祥：我們會後再送給大院。"],["黃委員國昌：速度快一點，好不好？"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["黃委員國昌：因為這個牽涉到我們對於檢察機關的信任，連高檢署做出來的行政調查報告都「離離落落」，這要怎麼跟人民做交代？"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["黃委員國昌：最後一件事情，不好意思，最後再給我30秒。我希望能夠幫監所的同仁喊出他們的心聲，深夜危勞勤務津貼支給表排除監所管理員，法務部認同嗎？他們的工作很辛苦、很危險，在監所裡面看管那些受刑人。"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員，我們絕對贊同他們的工作的確有危險性，而且很辛苦，所以這一部分我們一定會帶回去研議。"],["黃委員國昌：不要研議！法務部要有立場，要支持他們，爭取把他們納入，可以嗎？這麼多監所管理員大家在關心的一件事情是什麼？你們的公文寫的是你們在研議，現在大家關心的是，這些在各個監所裡值勤，讓受刑人能夠好好服完應有刑期的監所管理員，法務部有為他們站出來爭取嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：對於改善他們的工作環境，法務部一直都有在努力。但有時候可能會牽扯到部會或費用問題，不過我們還是會極力爭取。"],["黃委員國昌：我希望法務部作為這些監所管理員的大家長，就該幫他們爭取正當合法的權益，這絕對是正當合法的權益！要認真一點！"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["黃委員國昌：不要讓他們繼續失望，這樣好不好？"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員。下一位我們請鍾佳濱委員發言。另外同時宣告，今天有委員提出臨時提案，依據往例在上午11點的時候處理，屆時如有委員在詢答，我們就等該委員詢答完畢之後馬上進行臨時提案的處理，不好意思。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":230,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-37","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","黃國昌","羅智強","鍾佳濱","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","沈發惠","林思銘","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","翁曉玲","楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁"],"page_start":177,"meetingDate":["2024-07-11"],"gazette_id":"1137401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第37次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員羅智強等27\n人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民\n國刑法增訂第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之二條文草案」案、(四)委員謝衣鳯等16人擬\n具「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1137401_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.32534375,"end":8.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.282843750000001,"end":9.025343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.602843750000002,"end":13.345343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.800968750000003,"end":15.015968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.011593750000003,"end":19.504718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.74096875,"end":22.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.356593750000002,"end":24.41534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.870968750000003,"end":30.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.64221875,"end":32.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.88659375,"end":34.034093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.64159375,"end":39.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.97409375,"end":40.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.37471875,"end":42.572843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00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案件,並擬具具保了以後,我只是擔保他會倒庭,我沒有辦法去擔保他會不會滅政,他會不會竄購,那如果他違反法院的命令,我們目前的效果是向法院再申請羈押,那如果說未來我們在修法上面,把他進一步擴及到除了向法院申請羈押以外,他違反之前交保的時候法院所為的命令,一併的把他具保的金額沒入"},{"start":420.874,"end":438.402,"text":"法務部在不贊成?這個不是我們這是刑訴不是我們主管的我知道啦但台灣現在刑事司法荒謬就在這裡刑法跟刑訴實體法跟訴訟法像是雙胞胎一樣一體兩面嘛"},{"start":439.842,"end":459.095,"text":"結果你們一個法務部管一個司法院管這兩者之間必須要有一個很好的統合的機制啦我今天不會請你代表司法院發言從法務部的立場我剛剛那樣子啊立法上面方向的建議啊 贊不贊成"},{"start":462.386,"end":484.609,"text":"我們待會去研議好了好好研議啦因為我覺得這些事情怎麼樣確保國家的刑事司法權能夠落實這是一個非常嚴肅而重要的問題謝謝下一個我要追的事情是八八會館的調查報告我上次去高檢署的時候高檢署已經承認了"},{"start":485.86,"end":507.985,"text":"一開始調查報告內容是不實的八八會館裡面聚集了非常多的權貴犯罪過去這兩年我們看了非常非常的多了結果我們一開始連高檢署做出來的行政調查報告內容都虛偽不實然後我在5月15號的時候"},{"start":510.014,"end":528.379,"text":"那個時候次長跟我承諾黃謀信次長跟我承諾說高檢署會修正報告而且會儘速公佈現在快兩個月了東西在哪裡報告委員本部的確在113年4月17號有含請台高檢再釐清據報確實有88會館人員出入將提給懲戒法院來審訟"},{"start":538.753,"end":560.553,"text":"提過去了還提過去了不是啊給懲戒法院是一回事啦是那個是被彈劾的所以給懲戒法院嘛是現在我的問題是你們高檢署的行政調查報告避重就輕嘛我追了半天啊你們答應說高檢署會儘速公佈修正的報告我等到今天沒看到啊"},{"start":562.921,"end":586.937,"text":"的確當時是根據相關人員所說所做的認定並沒有調查不實那後來再追查的結果是有88會館人員出入但是不是有女陪室的那一種沒有關係你們修正的報告什麼時候要公布跳票啦我給你們兩個月的時間我們會後再送給大院"},{"start":587.779,"end":613.48,"text":"三）委員羅智強等22人擬具:「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條之一及第二百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一條之一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百六十一及第三百"},{"start":617.605,"end":645.967,"text":"他們的工作很辛苦很危險欸在監所裡面去看管那一些受刑人。報告委員我們絕對贊同就是他們的確是有危險性而且很辛苦那這一部分我們一定會帶回去研議。不要研議啊!法務部要有立場啊!要支持他們啊!爭取要把他納入啊!可以嗎?這麼多監所管理員大家在關心的一件事情是什麼?"},{"start":648.134,"end":670.916,"text":"你們的公文是你們在研議嗎?那現在大家關心的是法務部有幫這一些在各個監所裡面幫我們在讓這個受刑人能夠好好的服完他應該有的刑期這一些的監所管理員你們法務部有站出來爭取嗎?"},{"start":674.266,"end":697.696,"text":"對於改善他們的工作環境我們法務部一直有在努力那有時候是有很會牽扯到部會或者是費用的問題不過我們還是會極力爭取我希望法務部作為這些監所管理員的大家長該幫他們爭取正當合法的權益這個絕對是正當合法的權益"},{"start":700.967,"end":701.348,"text":"條文修正草案案案件。"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}