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11:56:21","會議時間":"2024-07-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第28次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查國民黨黨團擬具「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二及第三十八條之三條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。）","gazette":{"lineno":583,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（11時48分）謝謝主席，本席請董次長。"],["主席：有請董次長。"],["徐委員欣瑩：次長好。"],["董次長建宏：委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：請問您，依照經濟學的供需理論，當供給大於需求的時候，價格是上漲還是下降？"],["董次長建宏：供給大於需求當然是下降。"],["徐委員欣瑩：當然是下降，但也很奇怪，現在自由住宅率高達78.6%，我們空閒的住宅也有18.5%，為什麼房價和房租還是一路飆漲？"],["董次長建宏：這個要跟委員報告，一般市場供需原則當然是supply and demand side的互動，可是住宅有一個特殊狀況是它有所謂的獨一性，也就是說，這個地點蓋了房子，這個地點就不能蓋另外一間，所以它具有一定程度的壟斷性，在經濟學上我們很清楚，有壟斷性的地方就不是一般的單純市場，而是具有壟斷性的市場或寡占性市場。"],["徐委員欣瑩：反正現在臺灣就是房價、房租一路飆漲，我們今天要談的，我想您也接受了很多委員質詢，那就是租屋黑市的問題。有關租屋黑市的問題，現在空屋高達166.4萬戶，為什麼沒有辦法讓民間釋出這些空屋呢？"],["董次長建宏：我想空屋跟租屋市場之間的連結性，首先要先跟委員報告，我們目前在法定上……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我的問題是，目前我們政府的政策有在想辦法鼓勵或獎勵讓他釋出嗎？"],["董次長建宏：我們當然是透過包租代管政策等等，誘使房東把房子釋出來。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，但是我們看到日本，日本取消固定資產稅優惠額，讓持有人的成本增加三到四倍，所以它的空屋開始釋出，可是我們臺灣呢？蔡政府之前的囤房稅2.0也提高了三到四倍，但是並非實價課稅，所以讓每戶每年大概就增加個三、四萬，等於他每年就是多繳個三、四萬塊，所以我們的囤房率還是比較高。當然我們瞭解，現在300億包租代管，包租代管蔡政府花了8年，過去4年1,200億的租金補貼，本席想瞭解每年租金補貼的預算300億，但是真的接受申請的到底花掉多少？平均。"],["董次長建宏：我請我們國土署來說明。"],["張專門委員渝欣：跟委員報告一下，我們租金補貼的部分，今年度……"],["徐委員欣瑩：今年的不要，我問去年，因為去年整年過掉了，去年的預算應該有300億吧？"],["張專門委員渝欣：對，去年是第一年開辦300億，大概是32萬戶左右。"],["徐委員欣瑩：有來申請的，到底300億花掉多少？"],["張專門委員渝欣：報告委員，這個確實數據是不是……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們都沒掌握？都不知道？這樣真的不行！"],["張專門委員渝欣：不好意思。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我想次長你們一定瞭解，包括王司長，我們現在租屋黑市問題很大，而租屋補貼沒辦法落實是因為房客要申請租屋補貼，請問房東下一句話是什麼？你一定很清楚嘛！就是──不要租你！"],["董次長建宏：跟委員報告，我們其實透過……"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是，這個情況怎麼解決？我要聽的是這個。"],["董次長建宏：第一個，透過實際租屋的住宅調查，我們就發現因為租屋的租金補貼而不出租的房東，其實並沒有很高，大概一成左右。"],["徐委員欣瑩：哇！這個就可怕了。你知道……"],["董次長建宏：對，但是……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以現在我就擔心我們的官員對實際的市場，我跟你講……"],["董次長建宏：沒有，我要跟委員報告，我們……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我先講，現在立法院這麼多的助理，很多不是設籍在臺北，他們在臺北都要租房子，還有區域立委在各地的助理全部都租房子，真正去問一下，我看我們就在委員的助理裡面做個問卷，如實回答一下，大部分都黑市啊！全部都是黑市租屋，你怎麼會說只有一成？我不相信。"],["董次長建宏：我跟委員報告，申請租金補貼本來就不需要房東同意，我們目前的修法已經確定不需要房東同意。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，這些我都知道。"],["董次長建宏：房客可以依據消保法第十二條主張……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，不用他同意，可是房客要提出，提出以後，國稅局就還是會去查他嘛！"],["董次長建宏：我們在法律裡面也明確規定不得作為查稅的依據。"],["徐委員欣瑩：不查稅？"],["董次長建宏：對，所以基本上他們只要願意申請，我們就會給予。如果在這個過程裡面……"],["徐委員欣瑩：他如果不申請也可以？"],["董次長建宏：對……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我說房東，也就是說……"],["董次長建宏：這個申請是房客的事情，房客自己去申請就可以了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，房客申請嘛！那房東的資訊不會被揭露嗎？會不會被揭露？房東的房子會不會被揭露？"],["董次長建宏：它被揭露，但是不能夠查稅啊！"],["徐委員欣瑩：但是被揭露的情況下，比如說我是房東，這一棟房子我有20間小套房出租，結果有3個要申請租屋補貼，所以你的意思是說揭露沒有關係，不影響他的權益？"],["董次長建宏：沒有揭露啊！我們沒有揭露，租金補貼就是他拿來，然後我們告訴他，他就去申請了，就這樣！"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，他去申請，你們不會去查有沒有確實是這樣？會吧？"],["董次長建宏：他會上傳他的租賃資料、他的租約嘛！"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們只看契約就給他了？"],["董次長建宏：對啊！"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以無關乎他房東的房子，你們不會去查，這個是一直這樣嗎？還是現在有改法令，是這一兩年或去年開始有改嗎？"],["張專門委員渝欣：我們就是針對房客提出的資料進行審查，審查合格我們就會撥付租金補貼。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，所以房東的資訊政府什麼都不會看，然後也沒有人會去查房東？"],["張專門委員渝欣：我不會去查房東，基本上房租上面就會有一些相關的資訊，甚至我們現在連房東……"],["徐委員欣瑩：不會有人去查說，這邊有一間是租金補貼、這邊有20間整個都是出租的，不會去查？"],["張專門委員渝欣：我們不會主動去做這種查核。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，不好意思！本席希望就是，去年開始實施嘛，去年跟今年你有300億元的租金補貼，你告訴我到底有多少戶來申請、發出了多少錢，可不可以把這個資料能夠儘快給我們？"],["張專門委員渝欣：好，可以給委員，沒問題。"],["徐委員欣瑩：謝謝，謝謝主席！"],["董次長建宏：謝謝委員！"],["主席：謝謝徐欣瑩委員的質詢，謝謝次長跟司長。","繼續請洪申翰委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":62,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-28","speakers":["高金素梅","王美惠","許宇甄","李柏毅","蘇巧慧","吳琪銘","黃捷","張宏陸","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","丁學忠","麥玉珍","張智倫","黃建賓","洪申翰","鄭天財Sra 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side的互動可是住宅有一個特殊的狀況是它有所謂的獨一性也就是說這個地點蓋了房子別的地點就就是這個地點就不能蓋另外一間所以它具有一定程度的壟斷性那在經濟學上我們很清楚有壟斷性的地方它就不是一般的單純市場而是具有壟斷性的市場或寡占性市場"},{"start":69.219,"end":83.702,"text":"反正現在台灣就是房價房租一路飆漲我們今天要談的當然我想您也接受很多委員質詢就是租屋黑市的問題租屋黑市的問題我們現在空屋高達有166.4萬戶為什麼沒有辦法"},{"start":94.864,"end":98.886,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條、第三十八條之二條文修正草案。"},{"start":119.789,"end":145.492,"text":"我們當然是透過那個包租貸款政策等等去使用又是房子房東把房子釋出出來對那但是我們看到日本日本他這個取消固定資產稅的優惠額他讓持有人的成本增加3到4倍所以他的空屋開始釋出可是我們台灣蔡政府之前"},{"start":146.452,"end":173.005,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之"},{"start":174.506,"end":192.231,"text":"四年呢?過去四年一千兩百億的租金補貼本席想了解每年租金補貼到底你預算三百億但是你真正申請然後你你真的接受申請的你你花掉多少?平均平均我請我們國土組來做說明跟委員報告一下"},{"start":197.148,"end":222.532,"text":"就是我們租金補貼的部分齁,我們今年度的...今年沒有,去年,因為去年整年過掉了嘛,去年,去年你預算應該有300億吧?對,因為去年是第一年開辦300億,所以他的這個,是大概32萬戶左右。300億,那他到底有來申請的你,你到底300億花掉多少?"},{"start":223.94,"end":250.743,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之二及第三十八條之"},{"start":251.964,"end":278.517,"text":"請你回答房東會怎麼對就是房客要租屋補貼請問房東下一句話是什麼你一定很清楚嘛不要租你對不對跟委員報告我們其實不是這情況怎麼解決我要聽的是這個我們第一個就是我們透過實際的租屋的住宅調查裡面其實我們就發現因為租金租屋補貼而不去租租的房東其實並沒有很高大概一層左右"},{"start":279.177,"end":300.195,"text":"這個就可怕,你知道,所以現在我就擔心我們的官員在實際的市場,我跟你講,現在立法院這麼多的助理,很多絕對不一定,有的當然是,但很多不是涉及在台北,他在台北都租房子。"},{"start":300.675,"end":327.922,"text":"還有我們區域立委在各地的助理全部都租房子真正去問一下我看我們就做個問卷在我們委員的助理裡面如實回答一下大部分都黑市啊全部都是黑市租屋你怎麼會說只有一層我跟委員報告就是說整個申請租金補貼本來就不需要房東同意我們目前的修法已經確定不需要房東同意房客可以依據消保法第12條去主張"},{"start":329.702,"end":349.797,"text":"房客要提出嘛提出以後那個國稅局就還是會去查他嘛我們在法令裡面也明確規定他的他不得作為他查稅的依據嘛好不查稅對所以基本上他們基本上他只要願意申請我們就會給予然後他如果說在這個過程裡面對我說房東"},{"start":353.18,"end":354.501,"text":"租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例第三十四條文修正草案案。"},{"start":368.68,"end":396.632,"text":"但是他揭露的情況下比如說我是房東我有20間我這一棟房子我有20間小套房出租結果呢有三個要跟我申請就是他要租屋補貼那是不是我這邊的我就所以你的意思說揭露沒有關係不影響他的權益沒有揭露啊我們沒有揭露他申請租金補貼就是他拿來然後我們告訴他他就去申請了就這樣對對他去申請那房東的"},{"start":398.153,"end":425.532,"text":"他去申請你們不會去查說有沒有確實是這樣嗎?會吧?他會上傳他的租賃資料嗎?所以你們只看契約就給他了?所以無關乎他的房東的房子你們不會去查?這個是一直這樣嗎?還是現在有改法令?是這一兩年去年有開始有改還是?我們就是針對房客提出的資料進行審查審查合格我們就會撥付租金補貼"},{"start":428.301,"end":457.143,"text":"對,那所以房東的資訊房東的都不會被政府什麼都不會看然後也沒有人會去查房東對,我們不會去查房東因為他房租基本上房租上面就會有一些相關的資訊那甚至我們現在連房東不會有人去查說這邊有一間有租金補貼所以去查說這邊有20間這邊整個都是租出租的,不會對,我們不會主動去做這種查核"},{"start":458.736,"end":459.397,"text":"主席紅森漢委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}