{"error":false,"id":["154858"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":154858,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154858","日期":"2024-09-20","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"院會-11-2-1","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第2會期第1次會議","屆":11,"會期":2,"會次":1,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"院會","標題":"第11屆第2會期第1次會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-09-20T15:04:16+08:00","結束時間":"2024-09-20T15:35:09+08:00","影片長度":"00:30:53","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":641,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（15時4分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請行政院卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：黃委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：卓院長好。中午聆聽您的施政報告，我必須要說有些驚訝，因為我還真的是第一次看到行政院院長把考察活動的照片大拼盤來當成施政報告的內容……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們有延伸後續的政策喔！"],["黃委員國昌：當然您提到了，有很多地方我知道你試圖的要回應年輕人所關心的事情，但對年輕人所非常在意的公平正義，特別是司法正義以及媒體正義，在你的口頭報告當中完全沒有觸及，關於有觸及的，就居住正義的部分想先請教您，賴清德總統在去年的時候、競選總統的期間，大學生問他說：「蔡英文總統說新建社宅12萬戶真的可以達標嗎？」賴總統說：「你可以看看蔡總統任內最後一天，興建跟完成發包的有沒有12萬戶。」請問有嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：12萬戶我們會在……"],["黃委員國昌：請問有嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：持續進行中。"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，到今年年底十萬多戶。"],["黃委員國昌：所以有到12萬戶嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：十萬多戶，差一萬多，您所說的是完成發包，但是動工興建的部分我們持續在增加當中。"],["黃委員國昌：所以加起來是多少？"],["劉部長世芳：現在是十萬多戶。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！所以我的問題很簡單嘛！沒有達標就沒有達標嘛！有各式各樣的理由都沒有關係，行政院都可以去說明、都可以去解釋，好好的繼續努力就好了，不要文過飾非，有就有、沒有就沒有，如此清楚的事情，所有的數字全部都攤出來，全民都來檢驗。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會用後續的時間把它加強起來。"],["黃委員國昌：今年1月的時候，在你就任行政院院長以前，你曾經說：「賴清德沒有涉入立法院院長選舉，所以未曾指派本人進行任何的工作。」我那時候說你公然說謊……"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：你說我一再昧於事實的指責，然後說你的公信力跟社會的公信力，到底誰的公信力比較高，社會可以公評，所以我再請教你一次，你那時候有沒有公然說謊？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有公然說謊，那我就覺得非常詫異啦！為什麼民主進步黨的立院黨團總召柯建銘說1月14號就成立了改選小組，你是成員之一，是柯建銘總召說謊還是你說謊？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們討論事實，不見得就是要涉入、去影響干涉啊！難道在國會領袖選舉這麼重要的一件事情上面，黨可以沒有立場嗎？那我們在內部討論……"],["黃委員國昌：我並沒有說黨不可以有立場啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：那你說我干涉啊！我沒有涉入啊！"],["黃委員國昌：但是我問的是什麼？你說賴清德沒有涉入立法院院長選舉，沒有指派你進行任何工作啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：那我要……"],["黃委員國昌：那奇怪了，柯建銘就不是這樣講啊！所以我請教你嘛！是你說謊還是柯建銘說謊？"],["卓院長榮泰：那照委員的講法，我請教委員什麼叫涉入？"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，我把所有的事情攤出來啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們內部討論叫涉入嗎？"],["黃委員國昌：你有你的說法、你有你的說法……"],["卓院長榮泰：而且……"],["黃委員國昌：內部討論叫涉入……"],["卓院長榮泰：是嗎？"],["黃委員國昌：你有沒有跟黃珊珊見面，討論立法院院長選舉的事？"],["卓院長榮泰：那是之後的事情，你問我的時候完全沒有這個行為。"],["黃委員國昌：好，我們繼續再往下看，我請教你，黨政軍退出媒體還是不是民主進步黨的價值？"],["卓院長榮泰：這應該一直都是國內政治工作者共同追求的民主價值。"],["黃委員國昌：所以還是不是民進黨的價值？"],["卓院長榮泰：一樣是。"],["黃委員國昌：是嘛！民進黨現在有做到黨政軍退出媒體嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們主要的幾個人，過去經營媒體的都已經退出了，主持媒體的也……"],["黃委員國昌：我的問題還是很簡單啦！民進黨有沒有貫徹黨政軍退出媒體的價值？卓院長你認為有還是沒有？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們一直在追求這種價值，當中有些人跟媒體有關係，在從事公職之後他都要離開，或者離開公職之後他才能進入媒體工作。"],["黃委員國昌：OK，好。下一個問題，關於要發鏡電視的執照，「這是總統的旨意，這不是行政院長的旨意，不管誰來當行政院院長，這個案子都還是要通過的」，這個算是有貫徹黨政軍退出媒體的價值嗎？總統下令這張執照就是要過的，這個叫黨政軍退出媒體嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：你說的總統是誰？你說的行政院長又是誰？這完全……"],["黃委員國昌：我說的總統是蔡英文總統，對不起喔！這不是我說的，這個是鏡電視的大股東裴偉說的啊！這是他說的啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：那你應該問裴偉先生。"],["黃委員國昌：後來公布了錄音帶以後，他也不敢否認這個錄音帶的真正性啊！這樣叫做黨政軍退出媒體嗎？請教院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，你應該問問裴偉先生，他是怎麼樣心情說這個話？這個話是真是假？要不要經過什麼樣層層的考驗？"],["黃委員國昌：好，第一個……"],["卓院長榮泰：他一句話你就相信，我說的話你一句都不信！"],["黃委員國昌：如果裴偉說的是真的，大家都沒辦法接受對吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["黃委員國昌：好。如果裴偉說的是假的，哇！這件事情就嚴重了，我們放任一個媒體的大亨在外面假傳總統的旨意耶！這個事情非常的嚴重耶！但結果很奇怪喔，裴偉假傳蔡英文總統的旨意，如果真的是假傳的話，整個民進黨政府一片安靜，沒有人出來譴責裴偉，也沒有人出來說裴偉講的是假的耶！院長，你不會覺得很奇怪嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：每個人面對事情的發生跟結果都有不同的處理方式，因為這不是當事人，我沒有辦法替某些人回答，至於有沒有都還是一個疑問。"],["黃委員國昌：現在啦！裴偉這樣說完了以後，我看到民進黨的態度是一片靜悄悄，對於這種假冒總統旨意在外面招搖撞騙的媒體大亨一樣關係非常的良好。這個就讓大家開始去質疑啦，質疑我們的民進黨政府在辦案的時候是不是有選擇性辦案？還是關係好的、後臺好的能拖就拖、能混就混？","兩年多以前，有人具體的檢舉、告發了裴偉鏡電視的弊案，到現在超過兩年多了，很具體的指責喔！高層下令這個案子不准動，承辦檢察官根本不可能忤逆上意，動都沒有動，還要拖延多久？還要包庇多久？還是依法偵辦中？"],["卓院長榮泰：照委員的標準，我是不涉入那個個案的，但是關於程序上怎麼進行，如果可以的話，部長簡要回答。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分北檢還在偵辦中，我想我們……"],["黃委員國昌：有實際的偵辦作為嗎？真的有實際的偵辦作為嗎？不會啊，北檢前幾天讓全體國人印象深刻啊！9月9號告發洩密的案子，9月16號就偵結發新聞稿「北檢絕無洩密」。北檢效率很好啊！怎麼遇到特定的人、有關係的人、敢假傳總統旨意的人，當他涉及到這樣的弊案卻一直拖延，拖了兩年還不夠喔？部長，你對於這樣子司法偵查的效率滿不滿意？"],["鄭部長銘謙：檢察官依法偵辦……"],["黃委員國昌：當然是檢察官依法偵辦嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：案件的進行我沒辦法去推論……"],["黃委員國昌：所以我就請教你嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為我也沒辦法介入、沒辦法去指導。"],["黃委員國昌：站在法務部部長的高度、法務部部長的立場，一個案子拖延了兩年多，當事人、告發的人、告訴的人都已經出來指責了，到現在還繼續的拖延、繼續的包庇，這樣的效率部長滿意嗎？作為法務部部長你總要有態度嘛！我沒有說他一定有罪或沒有罪喔！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我不會去干涉檢察官偵辦案件的一個速度，檢察官自然會就案情以及證據的蒐集，把案件最妥適的處理，我沒辦法去做一個指導的……"],["黃委員國昌：所以意思是什麼？意思是辦個兩年很正常？辦個5年正不正常？"],["鄭部長銘謙：案情有難易……"],["黃委員國昌：還是跟鄭文燦的案子一樣要拖個7年才算正常？現在我沒有講案件本身喔！我完全請教的是人民所關心的司法效率嘛，司法的效率應該重要吧？這個是行政上面的事項啊，你作為一個部長，一個案件拖了兩年多，對這樣的效率，你滿不滿意都不敢表態？"],["鄭部長銘謙：一個案件的蒐證調查絕對不是行政效率……"],["黃委員國昌：好，我們繼續往下看。非常的奇怪，遇到了特定的綠色媒體集團，我們民主進步黨是能拖就拖、能混就混啊！我為什麼這樣說？這個就牽涉到有一個被違法任命為代理主委的翁柏宗。當初在鏡電視的弊案裡面，人家是指證歷歷說他洩密、通風報信、當綠媒的小弟，把NCC裡面審議時應該秘密的事項不斷地跟裴偉通風報信，人家把證據都拿出來了，當初翁柏宗是怎麼回答簡訊的？來，看一下，他說：如果連形式的真正性都待審酌，就沒有辦法確定、沒有具體事證。形式的真正性沒有問題啊！這些簡訊我全部看過，全部都是真的啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我需要請翁代理主委來說明嗎？"],["黃委員國昌：不好意思，翁柏宗先生沒有立場上備詢台，他沒有立場上備詢台，這是我的立場。我現在的問題還是一樣，這個洩密案還要拖多久？北檢有的案子可以9天偵結出來，查無不法、絕對沒有洩密。奇怪了！遇到跟民進黨政府關係特別好的媒體集團，這麼簡單的洩密案拖了2年多，偵結了嗎？有偵辦嗎？還要拖多久？請問還要拖多久？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，有一句話我想我現在說出來，你心裡的感覺跟我會是一樣的，我們都應該認為是無罪推定。"],["黃委員國昌：對，所以呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我請翁代……"],["黃委員國昌：我現在沒有說他有罪、沒罪，我只問你偵辦多久了？偵結了嗎？不起訴處分做了嗎？我連效率性的問題都不能問喔？為什麼人民痛恨權貴司法，這就是理由啦！我有說錯嗎？這是讓大家瞠目結舌的事情啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：大家是誰？沒有人瞠目結舌啊！"],["黃委員國昌：捲入弊案、事情還沒有解決的人繼續被提名被當NCC的委員。請教一下卓院長，翁柏宗有擔任NCC委員的資格嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，我是基於讓行政院的機關能夠運作正常……"],["黃委員國昌：請回答問題，翁柏宗有沒有當NCC委員的資格？"],["卓院長榮泰：我現在是依法請他代理職位。"],["黃委員國昌：是，所以他有沒有當NCC委員的資格？"],["卓院長榮泰：目前有。"],["黃委員國昌：他目前有，什麼時候會沒有？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果大院人事審查同意之後，他不被同意的話，那他就沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：對不起，現在我不是在講審查有沒有過的問題，我現在講的是形式的積極要件跟消極要件，他有沒有具備及符合現在法定的積極要件跟消極要件，這個問題有這麼難理解嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我依法請他代理主委，他就有這個資格。"],["黃委員國昌：我具體的問，你什麼時候要公告施行NCC組織法？"],["卓院長榮泰：我的理由是因為我要讓……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有，我現在的問題是你什麼時候要公告施行？"],["卓院長榮泰：只要它能夠正常的運作，不影響政府機關……"],["黃委員國昌：我們今天已經提案了，提了主決議，這個主決議現在進入協商冷凍期1個月，過了1個月以後，本院決議要求行政院立即施行，針對立法院這樣的主決議，院長你會抗拒，還是會尊重國會的決議？"],["卓院長榮泰：我會請求大院在這1個月當中趕快進行人事同意權。"],["黃委員國昌：關於人事同意權，上次我在這邊質詢你的時候，我問了一個最關鍵的問題，這個人你背不背書？你拖延了多久才回答這個問題？沒關係，我們來看一看你們的算盤是什麼？按照你的邏輯就兩個嘛，第一個，立法院通過之後，翁柏宗就成為正式的主委；立法院否決了，按照現在行政院的態度，他就會繼續擔任代理主委。所以立法院接下來審查NCC的人事同意權，不管是贊成翁柏宗，還是反對翁柏宗，最後的結論竟然都一樣耶！都是翁柏宗擔任NCC的主委。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，你這種預言式的質詢……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有啊，沒有預言式的質詢啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：答案不會只有這兩種啦！"],["黃委員國昌：那請問還有什麼選擇？"],["卓院長榮泰：看大院怎麼決定……"],["黃委員國昌：請教院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：我不敢僭越啊！"],["黃委員國昌：沒有啊，立法院只有Yes or No啊！要不就贊成、要不就否決，怎麼會有第三種選擇？"],["卓院長榮泰：之後行政院才會有行政院該因應的方式。"],["黃委員國昌：當立法院否決了以後，翁柏宗不就跟現在一樣繼續當代理主委嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果立法院否決一個行政機關，讓它無法正常運作的話，那我必須尋求更多救濟，否則政府的政務會推動不下去。"],["黃委員國昌：剛剛你說要尋求更多的救濟，那是行政院自己的立場，但你說我這邊整理得不對，對不起！我沒有辦法接受啊！我們不管是同意還是不同意，最後出任的不都是翁柏宗嗎？對你們來講，算盤就是一樣嘛！你立法院否決你的，我行政院絕對不公告施行NCC組織法，舊法就是繼續當嘛！萬年的NCC代理主委嘛！踐踏中華民國的民主法治到這種程度！"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我只有三個原則，第一個，就是讓機關正常運作；第二個，儘速通過人事的同意權；第三個，我會依法行政，很簡單的三個原則。"],["黃委員國昌：好！談到依法行政，我想請教一下，我發函給NCC，請求說明NCC的正副主委特別費用到哪裡去了？NCC的正副主委特別費用到哪裡去了？這是人民的民脂民膏，院長，立法委員不能問嗎？可以問嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：國會議員要了解這個，我想首長可以就……該回答的部分要清楚的回答。"],["黃委員國昌：但是它就不回答！"],["卓院長榮泰：那你可以繼續問。"],["黃委員國昌：我繼續問，所以院長你現在是指示NCC要回答嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：你可以請他上來回答。"],["黃委員國昌：我只有一個基本的立場，行政院院長對於各部會首長的特別費，立法委員能不能監督？"],["卓院長榮泰：對不起！我沒聽清楚最後兩個字。"],["黃委員國昌：行政院院長的立場，對於行政院各個部會首長的特別費、錢花到哪裡去了，立法委員能不能問？能不能監督？"],["卓院長榮泰：依法可以。"],["黃委員國昌：依法可以嘛！但我們的NCC很大，NCC非常的大！"],["卓院長榮泰：都一樣！都一樣！"],["黃委員國昌：拒絕說明啊！拒絕提供資料啊！怎麼會一樣？完全不一樣啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：應該回答的部分……"],["黃委員國昌：悍然拒絕啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：它應該回答的部分……"],["黃委員國昌：我希望NCC所有的官員今天聽到我們行政院院長表態囉，立法委員可以問、可以監督喔！我為什麼會去監督到這件事情？因為我接到檢舉，我接到什麼樣的檢舉？我先請教一下我們的院長，按照我們目前行政院的官箴，官員送禮可以找業者買單嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：官員送禮？"],["黃委員國昌：對！"],["卓院長榮泰：用官員的名義送禮，可以找業者來買單嗎？"],["黃委員國昌：可以找商人來買單嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：官員本身收受禮物都有一定的標準……"],["黃委員國昌：我說送禮啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：我是說官員本身收受禮物都有一定的標準，何況是用自己的名義再送出去，我想這個行為將來要避免。"],["黃委員國昌：是要避免還是不可以？"],["卓院長榮泰：他有沒有超過……"],["黃委員國昌：我可不可以送禮？譬如說，我卓榮泰要送禮，結果我去找一個財團大亨來買單，可以做這樣的事嗎？買單就是他花錢幫你送禮嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：難免就會有很多瓜田李下。"],["黃委員國昌：只有「難免瓜田李下」喔？"],["卓院長榮泰：我是用語比較含蓄。"],["黃委員國昌：不可以這樣子做，這個態度有這麼困難嗎？不可以這樣做，這個態度有這麼困難嗎？院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：我剛剛說過，官員收受禮物有一定的標準，不能收受他的禮物，或許現在有一些什麼樣的標準……"],["黃委員國昌：我現在就不是在講收受禮物的問題，請問這個問題有這麼困難嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，他如果是一件禮物……"],["黃委員國昌：你要送禮，你要花你自己的錢……"],["卓院長榮泰：請問，是很大筆嗎？"],["黃委員國昌：我都沒有意見，你要送禮的時候，你找別人來買單、找別人來出錢，這個在行政院的官箴裡可以嗎？這麼簡單、這麼明確的問題……"],["卓院長榮泰：如果單純是這樣的行為就不被允許。"],["黃委員國昌：這樣的行為不被允許嘛！好，我今天公開檢舉，法務部部長，請聽好，這個是有名有姓的、NCC的內部檢舉，奇怪！我們的翁柏宗過年贈送了高價的海鮮，這海鮮盒裡面有附收據，收據我都貼出來了，查了收據的統編，竟然是一個廣電媒體公司，NCC的副主委送禮，廣電媒體公司買單，這樣對嗎？部長，要不要查？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是依照公務員廉政倫理規範來做一個規範，如果沒有職務上利害關係的話，這部分是以3,000元以下為限。"],["黃委員國昌：上面收據寫得很清楚，是「41,000」元，我發票都貼出來了！這個統編我還特別去找，我想說其他公司也就算了，廣電媒體公司幹這種事！廣電媒體公司的主管機關是誰？是不是NCC？是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員告訴我們這件事情，如果今天委員不願意讓翁代理主委來這裡答復的話，我會請部長啟動了解的程序……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們會請政風單位……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，接下來翁柏宗自己會進入廉政程序、到檢調程序，他要怎麼講、他有什麼解釋，我都尊重。我只問一件事，這件事該不該查？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們再請政風單位來了解。"],["黃委員國昌：請政風單位了解嘛！好，我們繼續往下看。","這兩位是民主進步黨提名、民主進步黨支持出任的NCC委員，在新聞傳播學界受到非常多學者跟學子敬重的兩位學者：一個是林麗雲委員，一個是王維菁委員。這兩位是我以前在推動媒體改革時的好戰友，雖然他們去NCC當委員，但我不會因為過去的情誼而放水，該監督的監督，該說的話我還是要說。結果這兩位委員卸任以後發表了一篇鏗鏘有力、沉痛的文章！他說什麼？他說：臺灣政媒共生集團透過政治與媒體影響力，除了藉土地開發牟利，也介入政治甚至政府領域，包括人事、個案跟政策，讓媒體成為政治部門的輿論宣傳工具，不公正的新聞報導及節目導致臺灣新聞頻道的社會信任度長期世界排名倒數，是臺灣民主的另外一個危機！我讀了心有戚戚焉，院長贊不贊成這樣的描述？"],["卓院長榮泰：首先我感謝兩位委員在任內對通傳會業務上的努力，但是我更希望他們這段話是在他們任期當中、在正式場合、在公開的時候，在裡面基於職權講的，那麼會對整個體制的改善更有幫忙。"],["黃委員國昌：你說的沒錯，我也贊成啊！你可以說他們勇氣不足啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有，我沒有這樣說。"],["黃委員國昌：當官的時候不敢講，卸任的時候才講，有很多評論都是這樣！"],["卓院長榮泰：我沒有這麼說，我沒有這麼說。"],["黃委員國昌：我都尊重。但我對他們兩位的評價是：下來的時候願意講實話就已經很不容易了。我對你請教的問題是：他們這樣子的描述，你贊不贊成？這是不是你所觀察到的臺灣媒體現象？"],["卓院長榮泰：這樣的描述字面上大家看得懂，但我必須更深入了解所指的、所談的是何事？是什麼人？我們才能夠做進一步的判斷。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你不知道他在談誰？"],["卓院長榮泰：這樣看我是不知道。"],["黃委員國昌：你這樣看你不知道？我跟院長報告，談的就是三立，談的就是三立！我在國會殿堂……"],["卓院長榮泰：我看不出來有這樣的意思。"],["黃委員國昌：對，你看不出來，但我看得出來，很多人都看得出來啊！卓榮泰院長看不出來，可是今天全體國人都知道了，我們的行政院院長對於兩位NCC委員這樣的指責看不出來在談什麼，但我看得出來。"],["卓院長榮泰：或許我們角度不同，但如果我們都同時看清楚這一件事情的話，我們處理的方式會是一樣的。"],["黃委員國昌：他們講的有道理、沒有道理就要具體的看，對不對？一個特定的媒體集團在民進黨裡面有沒有派系、有沒有政治影響力、有沒有介入實際的政治事務？媒體上面討論很多，但我喜歡談具體的，我們更具體的來看。","他說臺灣政媒共生集團藉由土地開發牟利，這事情就嚴重了！所以我們下一步來看，桃園有個埔心牧場，埔心牧場是一個非常神奇的所在。為什麼我說是一個非常神奇的所在？味全集團持有埔心牧場二十幾年，不斷申請都市計畫變更，不斷申請不要再停留在農業區了，他們要開發、要遊憩、要休閒，結果二十幾年從來沒准過，從來沒准過！為什麼我會說這件事情很神奇？神奇的事情發生在2018年年底時，2018年年底時賣給了三立集團，院長，你知不知道2018年年底賣給三立集團後，內政部什麼時候准了都市計畫變更？"],["卓院長榮泰：我真的不知道什麼時候准的。"],["黃委員國昌：來，我把歷程都寫得很清楚了，什麼時候准的？2018年年底准的，2019年1月桃園市政府，18年年底才買耶，19年桃園市政府幫它把細部計畫都做好了耶，19年5月的時候，我們的內政部就准了耶！從地方到中央一路開綠燈，一條龍啊，快速服務啊，大家看的是瞠目結舌啊！","味全搞了二十幾年沒有辦法變，一賣給三立，1個月之內，我們鄭文燦所領導的桃園市政府太有效率了，1個月喔，馬上幫它提細部計畫，5個月以後我們的內政部就准了！院長，神不神奇？夠不夠力？差別待遇在哪裡？解釋給大家聽嘛！神不神奇、夠不夠力嘛？兩位委員所講的政媒集團，有政治影響力，還開發土地牟利，講的有沒有道理？來，請教院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我真的不知道這個過程，……"],["黃委員國昌：沒關係啊，你慢慢……"],["卓院長榮泰：你要問內政部，還是要問三……"],["黃委員國昌：這件事情我也不是第一天講了啦，我公開講了嘛，我公開講了，但是我們偉大的民主進步黨政府遇到這種案子是一片噤聲，一片靜悄悄啊！媒體不敢報，官員不敢說，我們中華民國臺灣的民主法治怎麼幫特定的政媒集團服務成這個樣子，非常的驚訝！但……"],["卓院長榮泰：那請教委員……"],["黃委員國昌：我現在來講牽涉到中央法規的部分，在中央法規的部分，大家都要問，味全搞了27年沒辦法過，三立取得了以後光速過關，那我就實事求是，我馬上去拜讀三立當初是提出什麼樣神奇的計畫，讓桃園市政府、內政部一路過關斬將。結果我看了，哇，原來這個三立影城跟我們的前瞻基礎建設計畫是有關係的，是因為前瞻基礎建設計畫，桃園市政府為了配合前瞻基礎建設計畫，我們的文化部火速就讓它過了，但我看完了以後就只有一個問題，前瞻基礎建設計畫跟三立集團的三立影城有什麼關係？院長你知道有什麼關係嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：前瞻基礎建設是由各地方用競爭型的方式來提出地方的各項建設，所以一定要經過地方政府做很多的審核，進來預算的整個規模之後，就會依預算的程序來進行。"],["黃委員國昌：來，我再跟院長報告，聽你剛剛解釋的過程，你顯然不是很了解，沒關係啦……"],["卓院長榮泰：我當然不了解這個個案。"],["黃委員國昌：院長事務很繁忙嘛，沒關係，我幫院長都查好了，我就去看了我們的前瞻基礎建設計畫、文化生活圈建設計畫，我從頭看到尾，就沒有一個三立影城啊！我找不到啊！我完全找不到啊！讓我陷入了迷惘，我們的桃園市政府是從哪裡看到前瞻基礎建設計畫有一個埔心牧場從農業區要變更成產業遊樂區，這麼重要的土地計畫的變更，從前瞻基礎建設計畫而來，但我實際去看卻完全沒有。從農業區變更成產業專用區，短短幾個月的時間光速通過了以後，院長，你知不知道這個地皮漲了多少錢？"],["卓院長榮泰：請委員明示。"],["黃委員國昌：好，2018年三立是1坪3萬8買的，1坪3萬8很便宜，牧場嘛，農業區嘛，怎麼會值錢，但是區位變更了以後，我們的鄭文燦市長，加上我們的中央，地方、中央一條龍的服務以後，我最近看了2024年4月周邊土地的實價登錄，1坪十幾萬，1坪十幾萬耶！院長，有好賺嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我了解委員的用心，你是希望地方首長不要涉入……"],["黃委員國昌：有好賺嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：不要涉入任何的土地開發，這個用心我清楚了。"],["黃委員國昌：有好賺嗎？可以這樣改喔！"],["卓院長榮泰：賺不到啦，賺不到啦。"],["黃委員國昌：因為時間的關係，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],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這不是我說的這個是進電視的大股東裴偉說的"},{"start":336.786,"end":363.226,"text":"這是要說的啊那你應該問裴偉先生他後來公布了錄音帶以後他也不敢否認這個錄音帶的真正性啊這樣叫做有黨政軍退出媒體嗎那委員你應該問問裴偉先生他是怎麼樣的心情說這個話這個話是真是假要不要再經過怎麼樣層層的考驗第一個第一個如果裴偉說的是真的大家都沒辦法接受嘛對吧"},{"start":364.341,"end":378.129,"text":"是的好那如果培瑞說的是假的哇這件事情就嚴重了我們放任一個媒體的大亨在外面假傳總統的旨意欸這個事情非常的嚴重欸"},{"start":379.471,"end":379.731,"text":"現在啦"},{"start":409.758,"end":429.193,"text":"因為我這樣子說完了以後我看到民進黨的態度阿是一片靜悄悄對於這種假冒總統旨意在外面招搖撞騙的媒體大亨一樣關係阿非常的良好這個就讓大家開始去質疑阿質疑我們的民進黨政府"},{"start":430.134,"end":453.666,"text":"在辦案的時候 是不是有選擇性辦案還是關係好的 後台好的 能拖就拖啊 能混就混兩年多以前 有人具體的檢舉告發了培偉進電視的弊案 到現在 超過兩年多了很具體的指責喔"},{"start":456.246,"end":479.781,"text":"高層下令這個案子不准動陳辦檢察官根本不可忤逆上意動都沒有動還要拖延多久還要包庇多久還是依法偵辦中照委員的標準我是不涉入那個個案的那是怎麼進行程序上如果可以的話部長這部分是北檢還在偵辦中有實際的偵辦作為嗎"},{"start":485.885,"end":498.274,"text":"真的有實際的偵辦作為嗎?不會阿北檢前幾天阿讓全體國人印象深刻阿9月9號告發洩密的案子9月16號就貞潔發新聞稿阿北檢絕無洩密阿"},{"start":503.51,"end":521.108,"text":"北檢效率很好啊怎麼遇到特定的人有關係的人敢假傳總統旨意的人涉及到這樣的弊案一直拖延拖了兩年還不夠部長你對於這樣子司法偵查的效率滿不滿意"},{"start":523.857,"end":548.433,"text":"這個檢察官這個依法偵辦這個當然是檢察官依法偵辦嘛所以我就請教你嘛站在法務部部長的高度法務部部長的立場一個案子拖延了兩年多當事人告發的人告訴的人都已經出來指責了到現在還繼續的拖延繼續的包庇這樣的效率部長滿意嗎"},{"start":551.243,"end":577.038,"text":"所謂法務部部長你總要有態度嘛我沒有說他一定有罪沒有罪我不會去干涉檢察官偵辦案件的一個速度檢察官自然會經案情以及證據的收集就罪案件的妥適的一個處理我沒辦法去做一個指導一個所以意思是什麼意思是說半個兩年很正常半個五年這麼正常還是要跟鄭文燦的案子一樣要拖個七年才算正常"},{"start":578.129,"end":598.662,"text":"現在我沒有講案件的本身喔我完全請教的是人民所關心的司法的效率嘛司法的效率應該重要吧這個是行政上面的事項啊你怎麼作為一個部長對一個案件拖了兩年多這樣的效率你把不滿意都不敢表態好我們繼續往下看喔非常的習慣"},{"start":605.185,"end":626.426,"text":"遇到了特定的綠色媒體集團我們民主進步黨是能拖就拖啊能混就混啊我為什麼這樣說這個就牽涉到有一個被違法任命為代理主委的翁柏宗當初在進電視的弊案裡面人家是指證莉莉啊抓洩密"},{"start":627.793,"end":654.336,"text":"通風報信當綠媒的小弟把NCC裡面審議應該秘密的事項不斷的跟培委通風報信人家把證據都拿出來了然後簡訊我們的翁伯忠當初是怎麼回答的來看一下他說如果連刑事的真正性都帶審酌就沒有辦法確定沒有具體施政刑事的真正性沒有問題啊"},{"start":656.511,"end":679.425,"text":"這些簡訊我全部看過阿全部都是真的阿委員我需要請翁代主委來說明嗎不好意思喔翁國昌先生沒有立場上備詢台阿他沒有立場上備詢台阿這是我的立場阿我現在的問題一樣阿這個洩密案還要拖多久有的案子北檢可以出來九天貞節"},{"start":681.092,"end":686.516,"text":"委員有一句話我想我現在說出來你心裡跟我感覺是一樣的我們都應該認為無罪推定吧"},{"start":709.337,"end":725.47,"text":"對 所以咧我現在沒有說他有罪沒罪我只問你 偵辦多久了 偵劫了嗎不起訴處分錯了嗎我連效率性的問題都不能問喔為什麼人民痛恨權貴司法 這就是理由啦"},{"start":726.872,"end":744.141,"text":"我有說錯嗎 讓大家瞠目結舌的事情 簡陸弊案 事情還沒有解決的人繼續被提名當NCC的委員 來請教一下我們的卓院長 黃國昌有擔任NCC委員的資格嗎"},{"start":745.869,"end":769.649,"text":"我是基於讓行政院的機關能夠運作正常請回答問題 黃國昌有沒有當NC新聞的資格我現在是依法請他代理所以他有沒有當NC新聞的資格目前有他目前有 什麼時候會沒有如果大院的人士審查同意之後他不被同意 那他就沒有"},{"start":771.425,"end":773.426,"text":"來我具體的問啦你什麼時候要公告施行NCC組織法"},{"start":801.511,"end":818.37,"text":"我現在的問題是你什麼時候要公告施行如果我們今天已經提案了嘛提了主決議了嘛這個主決議現在進入協商冷凍期一個月嘛過了一個月以後"},{"start":819.997,"end":822.46,"text":"我會請求在這一個月當中大院趕快進行人事同意權"},{"start":836.328,"end":863.613,"text":"人事同意權喔上次我在這邊質詢你的時候我問了一個最關鍵的問題阿這個人你背不背書阿這個人你背不背書阿你拖延了多久才回答這個問題阿沒關係我們來看一看你們的算盤是什麼按照你的邏輯兩個嘛第一個我們立法院通過立法院通過 翁國中就成為正式的主委立法院否決了"},{"start":865.27,"end":882.262,"text":"按照我們現在行政院的態度他就會繼續當代理主委所以不管我們的立法院接下來審查NCC的人事同意權我不管是贊成翁伯中還是反對翁伯中最後的結論竟然都一樣"},{"start":883.283,"end":910.999,"text":"都是黃國昌擔任NCC的主委報告委員你是懂預言式的質詢喔沒有啦沒有預言式的質詢啊答案不會只有這兩種啦那請問還有什麼選擇來請叫院長沒有啊立法院只有yes or no啊我要不然就贊成要不然就否決怎麼會有第三種選擇那之後行政院才會有行政院該應應的方式啊對所以當立法院否決了以後當立法院否決了以後"},{"start":912.176,"end":939.931,"text":"那不就翁柏中跟現在一樣繼續當代理主委嗎如果立法院否決一個行政機關讓他正常的運作的話那我必須尋求更多的救濟否則政府的政府會推動不下去阿剛剛你說你要尋求更多的救濟那是你行政院的自己的立場阿但你說我這邊整理的不對對不起阿我沒有辦法接受阿我們不管是同意還是不同意最後出任的不是都是翁柏中嗎"},{"start":941.793,"end":968.446,"text":"對你們來講算盤就是一樣嘛立法院你否決否決你的我行政院我絕對不公告施行NCC的組織法就法繼續當嘛萬年的NCC代理主委嘛踐踏中華民國的民主法治到這種程度報告委員我只有三個原則第一個就是讓機關正常運作第二個緊速通過人事的同意權再第三個就是我會依法行政"},{"start":969.107,"end":972.99,"text":"國會議員瞭解這個我想首長可以就該回答的部分要清楚的回答"},{"start":999.005,"end":1001.427,"text":"行政院院長對各部會首長的特別費,立法委員能不能監督?"},{"start":1022.379,"end":1035.417,"text":"行政院院長的立場對於行政院各個部會首長的特別費錢花到哪裡去了立法委員能不能問能不能監督依法可以但我們的ACC很大"},{"start":1036.618,"end":1038.319,"text":"我為什麼會去監督到這件事情因為我接到檢舉"},{"start":1064.808,"end":1091.35,"text":"我接到什麼樣的檢舉阿來我先請教一下我們的院長按照我們目前行政院阿的關憎按照我們目前行政院的關憎阿官員送禮可以找業者買單嗎官員送禮對用官員的名義送禮可以用業者買單嗎對就請找商人來買單阿這個官員本身售售禮物都有一定的"},{"start":1092.073,"end":1093.854,"text":"是避免還是不可以我可不可以送禮 譬如說我卓龍他要送禮"},{"start":1106.684,"end":1107.204,"text":"我剛說過官員收受禮物有一定的標準"},{"start":1131.425,"end":1135.869,"text":"你送禮你要花你自己的錢我都沒有意見你要送禮的時候你找別人來買單找別人來出錢"},{"start":1150.363,"end":1177.943,"text":"這個在行政院的觀真理可以嗎這麼簡單這麼明確的問題這樣的行為就不被允許這樣的行為不被允許嘛好來我今天公開檢舉喔法務部部長請聽好這個是有名有姓的喔NCC的內部檢舉奇怪我們的翁伯忠過年贈送高價的海鮮這海鮮盒裡面有附收據"},{"start":1179.636,"end":1202.758,"text":"我收據都貼出來了我收據的統編一去查竟然是一個廣電媒體公司欸ACC的副主委送禮廣電媒體公司買單這樣對嗎部長要不要查這個是依照公務員廉政規範的事情來做一個規範"},{"start":1204.167,"end":1215.512,"text":"我發票都貼出來了阿我還統編特別去找欸我統編特別去找我想說其他公司也就算了廣電媒體公司幹這種事廣電媒體公司的主管機關是誰是不是NCC"},{"start":1234.055,"end":1253.267,"text":"謝謝委員告訴我們這件事情但是今天如果委員不願意讓翁代理主委來這裡答覆的話我會請部長請部長進幾棟瞭解的沒有關係啦翁博宗他自己接下來進入廉政程序到檢調程序他要怎麼講他有什麼解釋我都尊重"},{"start":1254.247,"end":1281.486,"text":"我都尊重我只有問一件事嘛這件事該不該查這邊我們再請那個通常會我們再請那個政控單位來瞭解請政控單位瞭解嘛好來我們繼續往下看兩位民主進步黨提名民主進步黨支持出任NCC委員的兩位在新聞傳播學界受到非常多的學者跟學子敬重的兩位學者"},{"start":1282.21,"end":1309.556,"text":"一個是林立雲委員一個是王維欽委員這兩位以前都是我在推動媒體改革的時候的好戰友他們進去NCC當委員的時候我不會因為過去的情誼而放水該監督的監督該說的話我還是要說結果這兩位委員卸任了以後發表了一個鏗鏘有力沉痛的文章他說什麼"},{"start":1310.868,"end":1329.463,"text":"他說台灣正媒共生的集團透過政治與媒體影響力除了藉土地開發謀利也介入政治甚至政府領域包括人事、個案跟政策讓媒體成為政治部門的輿論宣傳工具"},{"start":1330.555,"end":1345.869,"text":"不公正的新聞報導及節目導致臺灣新聞頻道的社會信任度長期世界排名倒數是臺灣民主的另外一個危機我讀了新友七七煙"},{"start":1347.742,"end":1372.168,"text":"院長贊不贊成這樣的描述首先我會感謝兩位委員在任內對通傳會業務上的努力但是我會更希望他們這段話是在他們任期當中在正式的場合公開的時候在裡面基於職權講的話那麼會對整個體制的改善會更有幫忙您說的沒錯我也贊成"},{"start":1373.663,"end":1398.951,"text":"你可以說他們勇氣不足啊當官的時候不敢講嘛卸任的時候才講嘛有很多評論都是這樣我都尊重但我對他們兩位的評價是下來的時候願意講實話就已經很不容易了我對你請教的問題是他們這樣子的描述你贊不贊成這是不是你所觀察到的台灣媒體的現象"},{"start":1400.256,"end":1405.239,"text":"所以你不知道他在談誰喔?你這樣看你不知道喔?其實我就跟院長報告最少在談的就是三立"},{"start":1422.322,"end":1424.824,"text":"他們講的有道理沒有道理就要具體的看嘛"},{"start":1453.278,"end":1482.021,"text":"一個特定的媒體集團在民進黨裡面有沒有派系有沒有政治影響力有沒有介入實際的政治事務媒體上面討論了很多啊但我喜歡談具體的我們更具體的來看他說台灣正媒共生集團還藉由土地開發牟利這個事情就嚴重了所以我們下一步來看豪元啊"},{"start":1482.95,"end":1503.763,"text":"有一個埔西牧場那個埔西牧場是一個非常神奇的所在為什麼我說是一個非常神奇的所在衛權集團持有埔西牧場20幾年不斷的申請都市計畫變更不斷的申請不要再停留在農業區了他們要開發要遊棄要休閒結果20幾年喔"},{"start":1510.422,"end":1513.503,"text":"請問委員我真的不知道什麼時候準的"},{"start":1538.015,"end":1566.827,"text":"好來我把歷程都寫得很清楚什麼時候準的2018年年底準2019年1月桃園市政府18年年底才買19年桃園市政府幫他把事務計畫都做好了19年5月的時候我們的內政部就準了從地方到中央一路開綠燈一條龍快速服務"},{"start":1568.496,"end":1592.997,"text":"大家看的是瞠目結舌阿威權搞了20幾年沒有辦法變一脈給三立一個月之內我們政文參所領導的桃園市政府太有效率啦一個月喔馬上幫他提細部計畫五個月以後我們的內政部就准啦院長神不神奇夠不夠力"},{"start":1596.943,"end":1615.375,"text":"差別待遇在哪裡解釋給大家聽嘛神不神奇夠不夠力嘛兩位委員所講的政媒集團有政治影響力還開發土地牟利講的有沒有道理來請教院長我真的不知道這個過程"},{"start":1617.072,"end":1639.907,"text":"沒關係啊 這件事情我也不是第一天講的我公開講了嘛 我公開講了但是我們偉大的民主進步黨政府遇到這種案子是一片盡聲 一片靜悄悄媒體不敢報 官員不敢說"},{"start":1641.769,"end":1659.591,"text":"但我們中華民國台灣的民主法制怎麼幫特定的政媒集團服務成這個樣子啊 非常的驚訝但我現在來講 牽涉到中央法規的部分中法規的部分 大家都在問"},{"start":1661.298,"end":1679.111,"text":"威權搞了27年沒辦法過三立取得了以後光速過關那我就實事求是阿我馬上去拜讀阿三立阿當初是提出什麼樣神奇的計畫桃園市政府內政部一路過關斬將"},{"start":1682.629,"end":1711.262,"text":"結果我看了 哇 原來這個三立影城跟我們前瞻基礎建設計畫是有關係因為前瞻基礎建設計畫是桃園市政府為了要配合我們的前瞻基礎建設計畫我們的文化部 火速就讓他過啦但我看完了以後 我就只有一個問題前瞻基礎建設計畫跟三立集團的三立影城有什麼關係"},{"start":1712.915,"end":1741.52,"text":"院長你知道有什麼關係嗎前瞻基礎建設是由各地方用競爭型的方式來提出地方的各項的建設所以一定要經過地方政府做很多的審核那這個進來預算的整個規模之後就會以預算的程序來進行來來我再跟院長報告聽你剛解釋的過程你顯然不是很了解沒有關係啦我當然不了解這個院長事務很繁忙嘛沒關係我幫院長都查好了"},{"start":1742.79,"end":1766.182,"text":"我就去看了我們的前瞻基礎建設計畫文化生活圈建設計畫我從頭看到尾就沒有一個三立影城了我找不到啊我完全找不到啊讓我陷入了迷惘我們的桃園市政府是從哪裡看到前瞻基礎建設計畫有一個浦西牧場從農業區"},{"start":1771.82,"end":1795.251,"text":"要變更成產業遊樂區這麼重要的土地計畫的變更從前瞻基礎建設計畫而來但我實際去看就完全沒有但從農業區變更成產業專用區短短幾個月的時間光速通過了以後院長你知不知道這個地皮漲了多少錢啊"},{"start":1797.649,"end":1817.067,"text":"請委員明示2018年 三立是一坪三萬八一坪三萬八很少的嘛牧場嘛 農業區嘛 怎麼會值錢但是區位變更了以後我們的鄭文燦市長"},{"start":1818.615,"end":1832.984,"text":"加上我們的中央阿地方中央一路一條龍的服務以後阿我最近2024年4月周邊的土地就看了十家登錄阿一坪十幾萬阿一坪十幾萬阿 院長 有好談嗎有好談嗎"},{"start":1852.272,"end":1852.477,"text":"好 謝謝黃委員"}]},"會議時間":"2024-09-20T10:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"15:04:16 - 15:35:09","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第1次會議（事由：行政院院長施政報告並備質詢）"},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}