{"error":false,"id":["154860"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":154860,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154860","日期":"2024-09-20","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"院會-11-2-1","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第2會期第1次會議","屆":11,"會期":2,"會次":1,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"院會","標題":"第11屆第2會期第1次會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-09-20T15:51:14+08:00","結束時間":"2024-09-20T16:22:36+08:00","影片長度":"00:31:22","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":883,"blocks":[["林委員思銘：（15時51分）謝謝江副院長，我們請卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員思銘：院長，我想接續剛才蔡易餘委員有關國土計畫法的問題，國土計畫法明年就要上路，但是爭議一直不斷，甚至我們看到連執政黨的委員都出來反對。農業部也表示，農業施政的資源投入和國土計畫法的施行並非對價關係，就是剛剛你們解釋的，這都是因為農民對土地變更、農地的變更充滿疑慮，而且對農地的劃設標準不一，你們也一直去強調，所以各個直轄市、縣市主管機關也還需要有更多充分的時間去進行調查、與地方來溝通，因此明年如果你執意一定要上路的話，鐵定會產生非常非常多的問題。當然剛才兩位部長都解釋得非常多，但是一旦明年實施，會造成多大的農民反彈？我想執政者還是要去思考。","我整理了最近幾天不管是總統府或者行政院的看法，賴清德總統指示要彙整資料，行政院要再做整體評估，所以是否表示賴總統也贊成應該要延後施行？另外，行政院昨天也表示，要等待9個縣市政府送交國土功能分區圖，再進行階段的討論，所謂的新階段的討論的意思是什麼？院長是否應該就現在來宣布暫緩施行？難道國土計畫法有一定要在明年就施行的急迫性與必要性嗎？另外我想提的就是有關相關的獎勵措施，防止我們糧食安全風險以及農地品質下降等配套措施，政府何時可以完成規劃內容，公告讓民眾知道？這幾個問題請院長先答復。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。剛剛我已經有跟蔡易餘委員答復過，我們看到了事實上目前的狀況，以及依照國土計畫法第四十五條的規定，在執行上顯然是無法達成那個條件，但是我們現在內政部、農業部還在努力當中，我會跟兩位部長再做討論，而這個用意，第一個就是避免引起農民跟一般民眾的誤解，我們能不能把這個誤解解釋清楚？從原來法條裡面的解釋，能不能解釋清楚？第二個，我不願意這個案子是變成地方用一種政治的方式，在做一種政治的對抗，我們應該好好的來討論如何執行或是要不要怎麼執行。第三個，行政部門還沒有做出任何決定之前，我還沒有向總統報告這個事情，所以總統府是否贊成，並沒有是或否的意思，因為行政部門還沒有做出最終的決定。但是，我跟蔡易餘委員也承諾了，剛剛委員在垂詢的過程當中，我們會依照大家現在反映給行政院的這種態度跟內容來做審慎的了解，會儘速做出一個決定，但我希望這個決定之後，大家就往那個方向去推。"],["林委員思銘：是。院長，我想國土計畫法到底要不要暫緩實施這件事情，我自己彙整一下，大概我們立法院總共有11位委員提出暫緩實施的一個修法版本，所以我們還是要呼籲行政院，你要重視相關地方，尤其是農業縣市他們的意見。我想雖然你剛剛一直說你要花很多力氣去跟他們溝通，因為你剛才提到你昨天有提到一個事情，就是你說要等到這些沒有繳交分區圖的縣市繳交之後再來進行所謂新階段的討論，但如果這9個縣市遲遲不交呢？你所謂新階段的討論是指什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：一個是事實上不交！第二個是法律上的規定，我們就沒有辦法依照第四十五條……"],["林委員思銘：他不交，你就沒有辦法讓這個法案……"],["卓院長榮泰：但現在我的矛盾是，現在法條是行政院對於全國的國土計畫要在明年4月公告，在法律沒有……"],["林委員思銘：院長，所以我為什麼告訴你有11個版本，我想請行政院明確告訴我們社會大眾，到底你對於這11個修法的版本，行政院支持嗎？你不要把責任都推給立法院嘛！你們支持嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我想委員也希望行政院多多聆聽各方的意見嘛！我們也要多所整合，我們也要再做努力啊！內政部、農業部對這件事情是非常努力的。"],["林委員思銘：你基於現在的法律已經規定就是在明年要施行嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["林委員思銘：你是因為這個因素，所以你說你一定會去努力趕快把它……"],["卓院長榮泰：依法行政是我一向的主張。"],["林委員思銘：對，但是因為有這麼多立委提出修法版本，你也要表個態啊！你支不支持啊？"],["卓院長榮泰：我剛剛說過啦！"],["林委員思銘：你支不支持這樣的立法，就是我們再延緩兩年，讓我們有更多的緩衝期跟地方溝通？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我再次重複我剛剛答復蔡委員的這段話，我說我看到了事實上的困難，有9個縣市沒有送來。"],["林委員思銘：是。"],["卓院長榮泰：我也看到了國土法第四十五條必須一併公告在未來執行上的困難。"],["林委員思銘：是啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：我也看到地方政府有各種的意見，我也看到一些農民、團體或代表有不同聲音。"],["林委員思銘：所以你溝通還要一段時間嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們已經進行了很……"],["林委員思銘：已經這樣，為什麼……"],["卓院長榮泰：內政部已經很辛苦進行好長一段時間了。"],["林委員思銘：對於是不是請立法部門把這個法案儘速地修正，你們做出你們一個相對應的意見嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：我剛剛答復的過程就說了……"],["林委員思銘：部長，可以嗎？還是請部長來回答？"],["卓院長榮泰：我會跟兩位部長好好的討論我們如何接續後面，如果將來我們一個決定出來了，希望大院來協助，那我當然希望透過法定的程序。"],["林委員思銘：好。"],["卓院長榮泰：但是我們如果繼續推，我也希望地方政府能夠合作。"],["林委員思銘：好，院長，我想這個議題我們就討論到這裡。"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["林委員思銘：我想我最後的結論就是呼籲，我們的國土計畫法當然關係到國家整體土地資源的規範與利用，我知道你們的用心，但是這個更跟我們民眾的生活與財產是息息相關的，如果你倉促的上路，造成他們非常多的疑慮，也造成他們對政府的很多埋怨，所以這些都是你們要考慮的。"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，國土計畫上路不是要跟人民搶他們的財產，也不是要改變他們現在的價值。"],["林委員思銘：我是希望你不要倉促上路，你要跟他們充分溝通。"],["劉部長世芳：我們已經延後過一次了。"],["林委員思銘：把疑慮講清楚之後，因為你溝通了，但大家認為還是有很多疑慮啊！"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，國土計畫法是在立法院三讀通過的，站在行政機關的立場，一定要依法行政，而沒有辦法用行政命令來做任何展延。"],["林委員思銘：部長，我才會呼籲嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，這不會是倉促上路，它已經延過一次了，它延過兩年。"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以有進行討論。"],["林委員思銘：如果不是這樣，我想大家……"],["卓院長榮泰：我不敢說……"],["林委員思銘：如果是如你講得這麼輕鬆，不是倉促上路，就不會有這麼多的人反彈嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：我不敢說原來的條文裡面有問題，但因為這兩年還是沒有辦法化解誤解，我們就必須重新再來。"],["林委員思銘：我呼籲還是希望行政院、農業部，還有……"],["劉部長世芳：國土計畫法，縣市政府也是主管機關，不一定是由我們行政單位的內政部或相關機關，如果縣市政府他們有不同的考量，包括換屆的時候，如果有任何考量，他應該隨時可以提出來。而且在我們國土計畫法裡面也提到，5年就應該做通盤檢討，但是我們所知道的，你細看法條的內容，5年內要2年做通盤檢討也可以，但是有若干縣市政府是看到時間已經到了，最後半年才在加緊行程，像有些大的縣市政府說他們有一、兩千件的人民陳情案件，可是我們細看之下，跟鄉鎮公所都有很大的關係，不一定是中央政府。"],["林委員思銘：部長，這個我們都瞭解，我想我還是希望行政院很務實的面對民眾的聲音。","另外，院長，你是否知道目前校園中最紅的零食是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：一個什麼糖。"],["林委員思銘：從去年的魔芋爽到今天的蠟瓶糖。"],["卓院長榮泰：對，蠟瓶糖。"],["林委員思銘：請問這些是不是都沒有拿到合法的輸入許可，或者未經政府的食品檢驗？"],["卓院長榮泰：最近很多輿論在討論零食的安全性問題。"],["林委員思銘：是，請針對問題來回答，它是不是沒有拿到合法的輸入許可，也沒有經過我們政府的產品檢驗？"],["邱部長泰源：所謂的蠟瓶糖完全沒有經過我們正常的檢驗跟入境許可，所以如果有銷售行為，是違法的。"],["林委員思銘：但它現在確實到處流竄，既然它是違法，請問部長為什麼還會全臺到處流竄？在網路平臺上都可以購得。"],["邱部長泰源：那是因為有網紅啦，然後可能有人私帶進來，我們會……"],["林委員思銘：那你要如何查緝？"],["邱部長泰源：嚴加取締。"],["林委員思銘：嚴加取締而已，你是這樣後知後覺喔？因為現在問題都已經浮現出來了，還繼續在發生。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，因為網路銷售行為非常盛行，所以它一時之間竄起來，因為它原來是不能進口的，我會要求衛福部、食安單位馬上杜絕這個事情。但是我在這裡公開的呼籲國人尤其小朋友還有家長，不要碰觸這樣危險的產品。"],["林委員思銘：院長，當然這是你的呼籲，要去宣導告訴民眾，但是我想查不勝查，他們還是有辦法進來，所以你要如何查緝、如何追溯處罰才是重點啦。"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我們已經在113年9月18號函請各衛生局要加強市場的稽查，查獲違規者，將依法嚴辦，我們的食藥署也已通知各個電商平臺，檢視自家的商品有沒有去廣告這個部分。"],["林委員思銘：部長，關於蠟瓶糖，現在業者又以不同的商品名稱繼續在平臺上販售，相關部門對於這些狀況有掌握嗎？你掌握之後，要怎麼樣去查緝、怎麼樣去杜絕他們繼續在網路上販賣？"],["卓院長榮泰：教育部也會從教育系統對校內的行為來做一些節制，平臺的部分，我們會請主管單位必須跟平臺去做一些溝通甚至要求，我們現在希望能夠強力要求，平臺既然落地，希望它能夠符合我們的食品安全相關法律。"],["林委員思銘：所以，院長，為了保護我們的國家的主人翁，我在這邊特別沉重的呼籲行政院、衛福部、教育部，對於這些未經合法檢驗，或者未經正常管道進入國內的糖果，真的要嚴加取締，否則會殘害我們國家的未來主人翁。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["林委員思銘：這個事情是很嚴重的。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["林委員思銘：但我發覺你們好像根本都是後知後覺。"],["卓院長榮泰：衛福部有在處理食安的問題。"],["林委員思銘：希望你們儘速的去亡羊補牢，趕快來做。","另外，我想還是要跟院長來討論能源的問題，院長，能源政策是我們人民最關心的一個議題，電價的波動也是牽一髮動全身，今年4月電價審議委員會已經漲過一次電價，在9月底也即將再次召開電價審議委員會來討論電價調漲的問題，我們老百姓都很關心是不是又要再次面臨電價上漲、荷包縮水的問題。我在這邊要請院長苦民所苦，你要以民生為優先，人民的生活已經苦哈哈了，實在是經不起再一波的電價調漲，再一波的被剝一層皮。","台電也已經對外表示，如果立法院最後沒有通過今年1,000億預算的撥補，依據它的成本計算，電價後續仍需補漲12%。也就是說，台電自身不去檢討能源政策到底錯在哪裡，為什麼每年都一直虧損，對於它的經營管理方式是否需要調整，如果只想靠政府的撥補弭平它的虧損，甚至用這樣的一個說法要脅國會要通過補助，我想這樣的經營方式是一個惡性的循環，是不是政府都要每年用撥補預算的方式，永無止境彌補台電的虧損？","所以對於我們的能源政策，到底行政院對能源政策的配比，或者在未來，我們一直在強調，就是核能有沒有繼續讓它延役的可能？院長，你可不可以再次給我們很清楚的一個回答？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們先請郭部長答復一下電價的部分。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們的電價，從今年開始，大概會依法由電價費率審議會決定，所以您剛才所指導的電價會不會漲，這個完全要由審議委員會作決定。","而您剛才問台電到底經營得好不好，我跟您報告，是這個樣子，我們過去所產生的虧損，大部分都是因為物價，因為原料價格上漲，俄烏戰爭導致於我們進口的材料漲了很多。我們因為要補貼民生用，所以大概每一年都要補貼一千多億，因為過去沒有完全反映在電價上面，所以造成它嚴重虧損。"],["林委員思銘：部長，當然剛才聽到您的回答，你是講電價的調漲要透過電價審議委員會，但是我剛才已經唸了一段文字給你聽，就是你們也表示未來依據成本去計算，電價後續仍須補漲12%才能夠彌補台電虧損的問題。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這個是兩件事情。"],["林委員思銘：所以除了電價審議委員會……"],["郭部長智輝：彌補的是要改善台電的財務情形，跟我們的電價沒有絕對關係。我們的意思是，我們這一次調不調電價是由審議委員會決定，但撥補一千億這件事情是在改善台電的財務情形，因為台電過去承擔了很多補貼的政策，所以它的財務狀況非常糟糕。"],["林委員思銘：如果是這樣子的話……"],["郭部長智輝：如果沒有撥補的話……"],["林委員思銘：如果您說是兩回事，我想請教你，也就是我們補助一千億之後，電價是不會調漲囉？你可以很肯定地回答這件事嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們可以跟審議委員會報告，就以我們現在，今年材料的價格……"],["林委員思銘：依照你的邏輯，你剛才跟我講是兩回事嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：是，是兩回事。"],["林委員思銘：你說台電的虧損跟所謂我們電價要調漲12%，這不是必然的。"],["郭部長智輝：對，不是絕對的。"],["林委員思銘：那如果經過撥補之後，這一千億我們撥補給你，難道你電價還要調漲嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我認為審議委員會他們應該會參考，應該是可以不漲。"],["林委員思銘：我覺得經濟部的態度很重要，你要明確告訴國人啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：我來跟委員報告，電價的重點在於我們如何維持民生穩定、民生需求，所以我們是反映成本也要照顧民生，當然我們也要穩定物價和節能減碳，這個都要做。"],["林委員思銘：是。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以跟委員報告，我們今年提出的一千億追加，就我看來，我要修正一下剛剛委員所說的轉述台電的說法，說沒有這一千億就一定會漲電價，這種說法絕對不對，我也不希望跟國會用這種方式來對話。今年的一千億，我們可以用在穩定民生電價，讓它不漲；今年的一千億，我們可以回復給台電，過去很多政策補貼的政策，造成它財務不良，我們可以讓它財務比較健全，所以我說這1,000億是用在穩定民生跟健全財務，至於電價審議委員會，那是電價審議委員會獨立作業的審查結構，我願意這樣來跟國會對答。"],["林委員思銘：所以院長，依照您剛才的回答，我聽到您說，就是如果今年這1,000億補進去，電價是不會調漲的，因為要因應我們民生的需求。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["林委員思銘：您的意思肯定是這樣嘛？"],["卓院長榮泰：但是電不只是民生在用啊！"],["林委員思銘：不是，你剛才說要照顧我們人民的……"],["卓院長榮泰：對、對、對，這是第一個條件。"],["林委員思銘：因為要照顧人民的時候，你不希望電價調漲嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：民生電價我認為我們4月調過一次之後，我也在這裡說過，為了民生的穩定，不應該再調民生電價。"],["林委員思銘：所以9月底應該不會再調漲了啦！OK，好……"],["卓院長榮泰：但是這個要交給審議委員會，我必須要強調，這是我們過去的期待與現在的希望，電價審議委員會還是會期待的。"],["林委員思銘：我希望行政院的態度要做出來，你的態度就是你也希望不要調嘛！","另外，因為你剛剛又提到要反映成本，要看它成本多少去決定電價的問題，而我們看到台電的財務報告指出今年4月起調漲電價後仍繼續虧損，截至7月底累計虧損超過新臺幣4,300億，而行政院明年要繼續編列1,000億預算來撥補台電。那麼院長，我請問你，台電年年虧損，這樣看起來，台電就是年年虧損嘛！因為……"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，所以我們在明年……"],["林委員思銘：因為購買電的成本增加嘛！原物料增加嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們跟部長討論過之後，往年台電做很多政策補貼，我們都回復到目的事業主管機關，比方說對醫院、學校，就把這些電費由衛福部相關的醫院單位、教育單位來負擔，所以大家會看到某些部會有增加……"],["林委員思銘：我們看到今年總預算有關各個部會、各個機關電費的預算都增加很多……"],["卓院長榮泰：那是因為台電不再負擔這種政策補貼的任務了，它把它回復給目的事業主管機關，所以目的事業主管機關的電費會增加，台電的財務狀況會比較……"],["林委員思銘：所以你編列這些預算等於說就是拿人民的納稅錢來補貼這些機關的電費嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：這就是一個社會投資和補貼政策，包括醫院、學校，這就是一個社會投資跟政府的投資。"],["林委員思銘：其實我最終是要請問院長，你還是要很明確地告訴我們，到底我們的政府是否仍堅持不願意做政策的改變？對於我們的能源政策，到目前為止，還是一樣繼續地堅持非核家園……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們還是從「展綠、增氣、減煤、非核」這四個項目來做起。"],["林委員思銘：堅持用太陽能、堅持用光電、堅持用風電和綠能來發電？"],["卓院長榮泰：「堅持」兩個字是我們……","這是必要的選項啦！"],["林委員思銘：核能不是你的選項就對了？核能變成現在就絕對不是你的選項，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：我想委員也知道，依照核管法，核三廠1號機已經除役了，明年2號機也會除役，現在核管法都沒有改變，我們沒有辦法讓它重新啟動。"],["林委員思銘：院長，如果行政院的態度是希望繼續使用核能，我想相關法令的修正，立法院一定都願意配合。所以到底你的態度是怎樣？你要跟我們講清楚、說明白。如果依照你現在的說法，你說因為法律不許可，所以我們沒有辦法讓核電廠延役……"],["卓院長榮泰：它已經除役了。"],["林委員思銘：但是聽起來你並沒有反對核能喔！"],["卓院長榮泰：它已經除役，就沒有延役的問題。未來是否有可能重新啟動？現在法律上是不允許的。"],["林委員思銘：所以你也贊成我們透過修法，讓這些核電廠重新延役？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，現在我們行政院的態度是希望能夠……"],["林委員思銘：或者是讓它重啟？"],["卓院長榮泰：剛剛說的光電、風電，包括水力，包括地熱，包括氫能，所有的新能源我們都把它全數開發出來、儘速地開發，現在還在興建中的燃氣電廠，至少它是污染性比較低的，能儘速依照時程把它先興建完成，這樣我們有辦法在2030甚至2033年之前提供足夠的電力能源。"],["林委員思銘：院長，您講得很漂亮……"],["卓院長榮泰：這不是漂亮，這是數字的……"],["林委員思銘：實際上能不能達成？我想是一個很大的疑問。","我再告訴你一件事情，就是核三廠停機後，目前我們的發電方式以天然氣發電占比最高，大概占約45%，但同時它的發電成本也不便宜，燃氣發電每發一度電我們就要虧損一塊錢，台電去年（2023年）的系統發電量是2,454.6億度，換算下來，我們燃氣發電一年大概要虧損1,080億，你的燃氣發電一年剛好大概就是要虧損1,080億，所以你今年又剛好撥補1,000億，跟這個數字非常的接近……"],["卓院長榮泰：不是剛好這樣子密合的。"],["林委員思銘：所以就是剛才講的，你買一個天然氣，買一度電，然後你賣給人民，你會虧損一塊錢，用天然氣發電……"],["卓院長榮泰：剛剛跟委員報告，如果蒙大院的同意，我們今年的追加預算1,000億，那是在安定民生以及健全台電的成本，不是在補這個所謂發電成本的差距。"],["林委員思銘：所以如果核能不繼續重啟的話，因為核能除役之後、停機之後，所造成這些相關電力的不足、造成我們購電的成本又高，然後台電又年年虧損，這是一個無止境循環的狀況。"],["卓院長榮泰：至於已經除役的……"],["林委員思銘：所以我到目前都看不出來到底我們的經濟部要如何解決……"],["卓院長榮泰：已經除役的核電廠，我們一直有三項原則。"],["林委員思銘：如何解決台電年年虧損的問題？"],["卓院長榮泰：就是要核安沒有問題、核廢可以解決以及社會有討論的共識。"],["林委員思銘：但是很明顯的，你們每年都在講，但是從我擔任立法委員、從2020年到現在，每年我們都認為，到底台電這個虧損可不可以弭補、可不可以平衡、到什麼時候台電才不會虧損？如果繼續發展綠能，台電何時能夠不虧損？但是每年都講得非常好聽，我們的綠能一定能夠達標，但是仍然沒有達標，而虧損繼續，因為我們購電的成本太高了，所以台電是永無止境的在虧損，都要靠我們編預算來撥補，這個情形到底何時能夠停止？院長，你能給個承諾嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我是希望這兩年內能夠把台電的財務健全，第一，它不用負擔這麼多政策補貼的政策，讓這個回復到……"],["林委員思銘：兩年？所以你的意思就兩年，希望兩年內？"],["卓院長榮泰：希望它回復到目的事業主管機關。另外，我們對於新開發的一些電源能夠穩定……"],["林委員思銘：您給我的答案是，2026年台電就不要再靠我們編預算來撥補、來弭平它的年度虧損了？"],["卓院長榮泰：我說這兩年讓我們來調整它的體質，讓它不用負擔這麼多政策補貼的任務，那麼讓它體質……"],["林委員思銘：我想，我不管你用……"],["卓院長榮泰：然後我們希望用經營的方式……"],["林委員思銘：院長，不管你用任何的工具，你就是讓台電營運上面能夠損益平衡，我想我要的是這個答案，不管你說它其他的什麼……"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想這一點，我們應該是有把握，其實在過去幾年是因為烏俄戰爭所導致於天然氣的價格比較高漲，但是根據我們最近跟預測明年這些材料的成本，應該是不會再往上走，所以它應該就會達到像委員指導的，這樣我們應該是不會再把這個價格調漲了，也不會再虧損了。"],["林委員思銘：所以院長跟部長，你們就是保證在2026年，我們不會再用我們的預算來撥補給台電、來平衡它的虧損？"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["林委員思銘：我希望你能做到，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：我們這是要趕快把借的錢能夠還掉……"],["林委員思銘：我也很高興聽到這個答案，但是我希望你能夠做到，也拜託你能夠做到。"],["郭部長智輝：也減少我們的利息支出。"],["林委員思銘：OK。接下來，針對偵查不公開，我想請法務部長也一併上臺好了，針對有特定媒體、記者在政論節目上面透露，北檢正在偵查階段偵辦中的京華城相關案件的內容，表示他在地檢已經經營了七年的線，而且對於消息的信任度達到百分之兩百。我們前幾天也看到北檢有傳喚幾個證人，傳喚他以及幾個人。所以這個事件，北檢表示不管是檢廉調，你們都不會去洩漏這些偵查的內容。記者他是依多年的採訪經驗綜合分析判斷，偵辦團隊絕對不會洩漏整個偵查案情的內容。所以我要請教院長，因為本席知道這件事情之後，我感到非常的瞠目結舌，我想請教不管是院長或者部長，這件事情到底是如何？這個記者講他掌握了訊息來源，而且百分之兩百是可靠的，請問到底他為什麼能夠知道？原因是什麼？他到底如何掌握的？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分北檢在9月9日有分案來做偵辦，所謂這位記者是在13日有接受北檢的詢問，他是以證人身分來接受詢問的，根據這一種的詢問，北檢有發新聞稿，就是說他這個沒辦法提出、他不提出他消息的來源，那我想至於他所講的這個事實是不是正確，因為基於偵查不公開，我們也無從得知。"],["林委員思銘：部長，我想請教一下，這個記者他有拒絕證言的權利嗎？他有嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分那個……"],["林委員思銘：他是符合刑事訴訟法第一百八十條及第一百八十一條的要件嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個檢方在……"],["林委員思銘：檢察官問他的時候，他來作證可以講說這個部分我可以拒絕證言嗎？他不願意透露消息的來源，他可以這樣嗎？檢方的回答就是發個聲明稿，非常的含蓄啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分跟委員報告，這部分只是檢方的一個初步查證，這個案件還沒結。"],["林委員思銘：是。"],["鄭部長銘謙：那我想這個檢方還會對整個案情持續了解蒐證，我相信可以再……"],["林委員思銘：我進一步問部長，這個案子如果北檢沒有辦法對這位記者去詢問他消息的來源，如何查證是否有人洩漏？你要如何查證？到底誰洩漏的？他不講啊！你要如何查證？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分因為我不是承辦檢察官，我沒辦法去回答這個問題。"],["林委員思銘：所以我希望法務部要積極的去查證，請北檢要積極的去查證。","另外，NCC的翁副主委，NCC應該也有必要去調查這個記者的消息來源吧！他是不是講的不實在？亂發布假訊息？"],["翁代理主任委員柏宗：這個部分我們已經請三立……已經請他事實陳述了，那我們正在了解說他有沒有做事實查證，這個已經在整個行政程序當中。"],["卓院長榮泰：NCC是有作為的。"],["林委員思銘：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林委員、謝謝卓院長。報告院會，休息15分鐘，休息之後繼續進行質詢，現在休息。","休息（16時22分）","繼續開會（16時38分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":15,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-1","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","高金素梅"],"page_start":7,"meetingDate":["2024-09-20"],"gazette_id":"1137501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第1次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1137501_00001"}},"委員名稱":"林思銘","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bd92ad92936238b0e80bad79184d219b47607cafce7c84e806c9ea2d93ae82c1c51c5fd7770ca2cd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6.27471875,"end":11.337218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.742218750000003,"end":12.855968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":21.765968750000003,"end":22.508468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":22.44096875,"end":29.089718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29.511593750000003,"end":31.047218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":31.772843750000003,"end":34.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":34.962218750000005,"end":38.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":39.197843750000004,"end":48.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":49.06971875,"end":55.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":55.617218750000006,"end":56.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":57.47346875,"end":62.502218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":63.09284375000001,"end":65.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":66.34971875000001,"end":69.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":69.65721875,"end":72.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":73.58909375,"end":78.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":78.93846875,"end":80.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":80.55846875,"end":83.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":83.47784375,"end":87.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":88.30409375,"end":88.87784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":89.45159375,"end":90.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":90.09284375,"end":93.51846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":94.15971875000001,"end":97.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":97.43346875,"end":99.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":99.98159375,"end":101.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":101.90534375,"end":106.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":107.30534375,"end":114.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":114.57846875000001,"end":119.59034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":120.34971875000001,"end":122.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":122.39159375000001,"end":126.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":126.82971875000001,"end":129.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":130.18784375,"end":133.86659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":134.62596875,"end":139.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":140.04284375,"end":141.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":141.49409375000002,"end":143.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":144.10971875,"end":146.96159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":147.21471875,"end":148.63221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":149.05409375000002,"end":149.49284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":149.91471875000002,"end":152.91846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":153.57659375,"end":157.98096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":158.41971875000002,"end":160.02284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":160.68096875,"end":161.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":161.57534375,"end":163.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":163.98846875,"end":165.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":166.80659375000002,"end":169.27034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":170.29971875,"end":172.34159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":172.79721875,"end":174.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":174.95721875,"end":177.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":178.09596875,"end":180.69471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":181.08284375000002,"end":181.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":182.07846875,"end":184.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":185.26784375000003,"end":186.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":187.47846875000002,"end":190.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":190.41471875000002,"end":191.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":192.30471875,"end":193.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":193.99221875,"end":198.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","st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一旦明年實施會造成多大的一個農民的一個反彈我想我們執政者你們還是要去思考像我這個整理的最近幾天不管是總統府或者行政院你們的一個看法"},{"start":107.512,"end":119.369,"text":"賴清哲總統表示說只是要彙整資料﹖行政院要再做整體評估﹖所以是否表示賴總統也贊成應該要延後施行"},{"start":120.39,"end":138.925,"text":"另外行政院昨天也表示要等待9個縣市政府送銷國土功能分區圖再進行階段的討論所謂的新階段的討論的意思是什麼院長是否應該就現在來宣布暫緩施行"},{"start":140.14,"end":169.097,"text":"所以難道國土計劃法一定有要在明年就這個施行的急迫性與必要性嗎另外我想提的就是有關相關的獎勵措施防止我們糧食安全風險以及農地品質下降等配套措施政府何時可以完成規劃內容公告讓民眾知道這幾個問題請院長先答覆"},{"start":170.336,"end":192.546,"text":"好謝謝委員剛剛我已經跟蔡議員有答覆過我們看到了事實上目前的狀況以及依照國土計劃法45條的規定在執行上顯然是無法達成那個條件但是我們現在還是內政部農業部上去在努力當中那我會跟兩位部長在座討論"},{"start":194.062,"end":215.579,"text":"用意第一個就避免引起農民跟一般民眾的誤解我們能不能把這個誤解解釋得清楚從原來法條裡面的解釋能不能解釋得清楚第二個我不願意這個案子是變成地方用一種政治的方式在做一種政治的對抗我們應該好好的來討論如何執行或是要不要怎麼執行"},{"start":217.201,"end":230.657,"text":"行政部門還沒有做出任何的決定之前我還沒有向總統報告這個事情所以總統府是否贊成並沒有是或否的意思因為行政部門還沒有做出最終的決定但是我跟蔡議員也承諾了剛剛委員在"},{"start":234.294,"end":260.45,"text":"循詢的過程當中我們會依照大家現在反映給行政院的這種態度跟內容我們來做審慎的了解會儘速的做出一個決定那我希望這個決定之後大家就往那個方向去推院長我想這個國土計畫法到底要不要暫緩實施這件事情我想我們總共我自己彙整一下總共大概我們立法院有11位委員有提出暫緩實施的一個修法的一個版本"},{"start":261.551,"end":289.985,"text":"所以我們還是要呼籲行政院你要重視這個相關我們地方尤其那個農業縣市他們的意見雖然我想說你剛才一直講說你要花很多的力氣去跟他們做溝通因為你剛才提到你昨天提到一個事情就是說你說要等到如果說這個這些沒有繳交分區圖的縣市如果他們繳交之後再來進行所謂的新階段的討論"},{"start":291.138,"end":298.774,"text":"那如果這九個縣市遲遲不交呢?你的所謂的新階段的討論是指什麼?"},{"start":299.685,"end":302.086,"text":"所以院長我為什麼告訴你說有11個版本"},{"start":323.174,"end":348.027,"text":"所以我想請行政院明確告訴我們社會大眾到底你對於我們這個11個修法的版本 行政院支持嗎你不要把責任都推給立法院嘛 你們支持嗎我想委員也希望行政院多多聆聽各方的意見我們也要多所整合 我們也要再做努力內政部 農業部是非常努力的這些事情你基於說現在的法律已經規定就是在明年要實施"},{"start":349.568,"end":361.338,"text":"所以你是因為這個因素﹖所以你說你一定會去努力的去趕快﹖立法行政是我一向的主張但是因為有這麼多的立委提出修法的版本你也要表個態啊你支持不支持啊"},{"start":364.073,"end":365.094,"text":"國土法45條必須一併公告在未來執行上的困難"},{"start":381.184,"end":394.389,"text":"那我也看到地方政府有各種的意見我也看到一些農民團體或代表所以你溝通還要一段時間嘛我們已經進行內政部已經很辛苦進行好長一段時間你不願意對於說我們是不是"},{"start":395.795,"end":424.486,"text":"請立法部門儘速的把這個法案儘速的修正你們做出你們一個相對應的意見我剛剛答覆的過程就說了我會跟兩位部長好好的討論我們如何接續後面如果將來我們一個表決定出來了那希望大院來協助那我當然希望透過法定的程序但是我們如果繼續推我也希望地方政府能夠合作好院長我想這個議題我們就討論到這裡我想我最後的結論就是希望呼籲"},{"start":425.026,"end":425.126,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":446.266,"end":460.907,"text":"這個 非常多的疑慮也造成他們對政府的很多的埋怨所以這些都是你們要討論的報告委員國土計畫上路不是說要跟人民搶他們的財產也不是要改變他們現在的價值你不要倉促上路你跟他們充分溝通我們已經言論過一次了講清楚之後"},{"start":461.448,"end":465.07,"text":"因為你溝通大概還是認為說還是很多疑慮啊我才會呼籲嘛報告委員這不會是倉促上路他已經言過一次了"},{"start":478.536,"end":479.156,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":497.262,"end":523.718,"text":"國土計劃法縣市政府也是主管機關不一定是由我們的行政單位的那個內政部或相關機關如果縣市政府他們有不同的考量包括換屆的時候如果有任何考量他應該隨時可以提出來而且在我們國土計劃法裡面也提到五年就應該做通盤檢討但是我們所知道你細看法條的內容五年內你要兩年做通盤檢討也可以但是有若干縣市政府是看到說這個時間已經到了"},{"start":525.299,"end":526.28,"text":"我想我還是希望說行政院很務實的面對民眾他們的聲音"},{"start":542.19,"end":565.865,"text":"另外院長你是否知道目前校園中最紅的零食是什麼嗎校園中一個什麼糖就是從去年的魔乳爽到今天的叫做辣平糖請問這些是不是都沒有拿到合法的輸入席可或者是我們未經政府的食品檢驗最近"},{"start":567.421,"end":568.561,"text":"現在所謂的拉平堂"},{"start":590.663,"end":595.387,"text":"那既然他是違法那請問這個部長為什麼還全台會到處流竄在網路平台上都可以舉報的"},{"start":616.038,"end":627.444,"text":"有網紅﹖可能有人私帶進來的那你要如何查緝啊?因家取緝而已你是這樣後知後覺喔?因為現在問題都已經浮現出來了這個問題還繼續在發生網路銷售行為的非常盛行所以在一時之間串起來那我會要求衛福部我們的"},{"start":645.374,"end":672.231,"text":"實案單位能夠馬上進行因為他原來是不能進來的不能進口的馬上要杜絕這個事情但是我希望這裡公開的呼籲啊國人以及小朋友還有家長共同來不要碰觸這樣危險的產品當然這是你的呼籲喔要去宣導告訴民眾但是我想這個查不勝查他們還是有辦法進來所以你要如何查緝如何追溯處罰這才是重點啊"},{"start":672.827,"end":687.48,"text":"發言委員我們已經在113年9月18號還請各衛生局要加強市場的稽查查獲的規則將依法原辦我們的食藥署也通知各個電商平台檢視"},{"start":689.598,"end":716.149,"text":"所有的自家的電商品和自家的商品有沒有去廣告這個部分是部長我想關於這個蠟品堂因為他現在業者他又以不同的商品名稱繼續在平台上販售所以相關部門你對於這些狀況你有掌握嗎你掌握之後你怎麼樣去查緝他怎麼樣去杜絕他們繼續在網路上面去販賣"},{"start":717.898,"end":722.473,"text":"教育部也會從教育系統對校內的行為來做一些節制平台的部分我們會請"},{"start":724.093,"end":750.294,"text":"主管單位必須跟平台能夠去做一些這樣的溝通甚至要求我們現在希望能夠強力的要求平台既然落地希望它能夠符合我們的相關安全法律所以我想為了保護我們的國家的主人翁我在這邊特別沉重的呼籲我們行政院衛福部或者教育部對於這些未經合法檢驗或者未經正常管道進入到"},{"start":750.954,"end":754.239,"text":"的這些糖果真的要嚴加取締"},{"start":756.091,"end":760.234,"text":"另外我想還是要跟院長來討論能源的問題這個能源政策是我們人民最關心的一個議題"},{"start":782.546,"end":810.973,"text":"電價的波動也是簽議法的動全身在今年4月電價審議委員會已經掌握一次電價在9月底也即將要再次召開電價審議委員會來討論電價調漲的問題所以我們老百姓都很關心說是不是又要再次面臨電價上漲荷包縮水的一個問題所以院長我要在這邊要請院長你要苦民所苦"},{"start":811.766,"end":837.206,"text":"你要以民生為優先人民的生活已經苦哈哈了實在是經不起再一波的電價調漲再一波的被剝一層皮那台電也已經對外表示說如果立法院最後沒有通過這個今年的1000億的預算的撥補那依據他的成本計算電價後續仍需補漲12%"},{"start":842.52,"end":867.483,"text":"也就是說台電它自身不去檢討說能源政策到底是錯在哪裡為什麼每年都會一直虧損對於它的經營管理的方式是否需要調整如果只是想要靠政府的撥補來彌平它的虧損甚至用這樣的一個說法來要求國會要通過補助"},{"start":870.233,"end":898.408,"text":"我想這樣的一個經營方式是一個惡性的循環我們是不是政府都要每年用撥補預算的方式來這個永無止境彌補台電的虧損所以對於我們的能源政策行政院到底你對能源政策的一個配比或者未來我們有沒有可能我們一直在強調就是在核能有沒有繼續讓它延益的可能"},{"start":899.315,"end":904.877,"text":"市長您可不可以再次給我們很清楚的一個回答我們請請國務長答覆一下電價報告這個委員我們的這個電價從今年開始大概會依法由這個電價匯率審議會來決定所以您剛才所指導的這個電價會不會漲這個完全要由這個審議委員會來做決定"},{"start":924.593,"end":949.622,"text":"您剛才問說那個台電到底經營的好不好我跟您報告是這個樣子我們在過去所產生的虧損大部分都是由因為這個物價因為這個原料的這個價格上漲這個二屋的這個戰爭導致於說我們進口的這個材料那麼漲了很多那我們因為這個要"},{"start":952.251,"end":962.168,"text":"民生用所以我們大概每一年都要補貼一千多億因為過去沒有完全反映在電價上面"},{"start":963.914,"end":983.626,"text":"所以造成他嚴重的虧損所以部長當然剛才聽到你的回答你是講說這個電價的調漲要透過電價審議委員會但是我剛才已經念了一段文字給你聽就是說你們也表示說這個未來依據成本去計算電價後續仍需補漲12%"},{"start":987.967,"end":997.19,"text":"才能夠彌補臺電虧損的問題彌補的是要改善臺電的財務情形跟我們的電價沒有這個絕對的關係我們的意思是說我們這一次調不調電價是由省議委員會來決定但是一千億的撥補這件事情是在改善臺電的財務情形"},{"start":1016.34,"end":1018.522,"text":"部長 如果您說是兩回事我想請教你 也就是說我們補助1000億之後 電價是不會調漲嗎"},{"start":1036.499,"end":1049.585,"text":"你可以很肯定的回答這件事嗎我們可以跟這個審議委員會報告這以我們現在今年來 今年的材料的價格因照你的邏輯 你剛才跟我講兩回事說台電的虧損跟所謂的我們電價要調漲12%這不是必然的對 不是絕對的那如果說經過撥補之後這一千億我們撥補給你難道你電價還要調漲嗎"},{"start":1065.031,"end":1092.38,"text":"我認為這個審議委員會他們應該會參考應該是可以不長時間我覺得經濟部的態度很重要你要明確告訴國人我來跟委員報告我們電價的重點在於我們如何維持民生的穩定民生的需求所以我們是反應成本也要照顧民生當然我們也要穩定物價跟節能減碳這個都要做所以跟委員報告我們今年提出的1000億的追加"},{"start":1094.059,"end":1120.981,"text":"就我看來我要修正一下剛剛委員所說的轉述台電的說法說沒有這1000億就一定會漲電價這種說法絕對不對我也不希望跟國會用這種方式來對話今年的1000億我們可以用在穩定民生的電價讓它不漲今年的1000億我們可以來回復給台電它過去很多政策補貼的政策造成它財務的不良我們可以讓它財務比較健全"},{"start":1121.681,"end":1137.289,"text":"所以我說這個1000億是用在穩定民生跟健全財務至於說電價審議委員會那是電價審議委員會獨立作業的一個審查結構我願意這樣來跟國會對答所以院長依照您剛才的回答我聽到的您說到就是如果今年這1000億不進去電價是不會調漲的"},{"start":1140.385,"end":1141.005,"text":"9月底應該不會再調整"},{"start":1164.688,"end":1184.245,"text":"但是這個要交給審議委員會我必須要講到這是我們過去的期待以現在的期望電價審議委員會還是會期待你的態度就是你也希望不要調那另外因為你剛才又提到說整個這個要反映成本所以你要看它成本多少你來去這個決定說電價的一個問題"},{"start":1185.54,"end":1200.967,"text":"那我們看到臺電的財務報告指出說今年4月起調漲電價後仍繼續虧損截至7月底累積虧損超過新台幣4300億而行政院明年你要繼續編列1000億的預算來撥補臺電那院長我請問你臺電年年虧損"},{"start":1208.404,"end":1208.524,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":1228.353,"end":1228.733,"text":"臺電不再負擔政策補貼"},{"start":1243.951,"end":1245.272,"text":"所以我其實我最終的我要請問院長你還是要這個很明確的告訴我們到底我們的"},{"start":1269.778,"end":1280.751,"text":"政府是否仍堅持不願意做政策的改變對於這個我們的能源政策還是一樣到目前為止我們還是繼續的堅持用太陽能堅持用光電堅持用風電綠能來作為發電"},{"start":1291.522,"end":1293.063,"text":"如果行政院的態度是希望核能繼續我想相關法令的修正"},{"start":1319.349,"end":1342.316,"text":"立法院一定都願意配合所以到底說你的態度是怎樣你要跟我們講清楚說明白如果依照你現在的說法你說因為法律不許可所以我們沒有辦法去讓核能研議但是聽起來你是沒有反對核能喔他已經除以就沒有研議的問題是未來是否有可能重新啟動那現在法律上是不允許的所以你也"},{"start":1343.615,"end":1352.516,"text":"也贊成說我們透過修法讓這些核能重新研議不是 行政院現在我們的態度是希望能夠剛剛說的"},{"start":1355.114,"end":1379.337,"text":"光電 風電 包括水力 包括地熱 包括氫能所有的新能源我們都把它全速的開發出來 緊速的開發那現在還在興建中的燃氣電廠至少它是一個污染性質比較低的燃氣電廠能盡速依照時程把它先興建完成這樣我們有辦法在2030甚至2033年之前提供足夠的電力能源"},{"start":1380.836,"end":1403.95,"text":"院長您講得很漂亮這不是漂亮 這數字的實際上能不能達成我想是一個很大的一個疑問其實我們現在來我再告訴你一件事情就是說河山廠停機後我們可以從我們看那個圖表上面看出來就是說目前我們的發電方式以這個天然氣的發電的占比最高大概占約45%"},{"start":1405.971,"end":1410.879,"text":"但同時發電的成本也不便宜啊燃氣的發電每發一電鍍我們就要虧損一塊錢"},{"start":1414.667,"end":1437.2,"text":"我們以台電去年2023年的系統發電量是2454.61度換算下來大概我們燃氣發電一年一度要虧損一年大概要虧損1080億所以你的燃氣發電一年剛好大概就是要虧損1080億所以你今年又剛好撥補1000億"},{"start":1439.481,"end":1464.924,"text":"跟這個數字啊 非常的接近所以你就跟他講 你買一度電 買一個天然氣買一度電 然後你賣給人民 你會虧損這個一塊錢如果盟大院的同意 我們今年的最佳預算一千億那是在安定民生以及健全台電的成本 不是在補這個所謂發電成本的差距所以那個"},{"start":1466.087,"end":1482.836,"text":"如果核能不繼續重啟的話真的我們因為核能除役之後停機之後所造成的我們這些相關電力的不足所造成我們購電的成本又高然後台電又年年虧損"},{"start":1484.188,"end":1490.76,"text":"這是一個無止境的循環的狀況所以我到目前都看不出來說到底我們經濟部到底要如何解決臺電年年虧損的問題"},{"start":1496.755,"end":1522.588,"text":"就是要和安沒有問題和廢可以解決以及社會有討論的共識但是我想從我擔任立法委員從2020到現在每年我們都認為說到底台電這個虧損可不可以彌補啊可不可以平衡到什麼時候台電才不會虧損如果繼續這個發展我們的綠能那我們是不是台電何時能夠不虧損但是"},{"start":1523.669,"end":1539.141,"text":"每年都講得非常好聽我們的綠能一定能夠達標但是仍然沒有達標那虧損繼續因為我們購電的成本太高了所以台電是永無止境的在虧損都要靠我們編預算來去撥補這個情形到底何時"},{"start":1540.892,"end":1541.332,"text":"主管機關"},{"start":1557.519,"end":1559.7,"text":"不管你用任何的工具啦你就是讓台電營運上面能夠損益平衡啦"},{"start":1585.026,"end":1588.748,"text":"這一點我們應該是有把握其實在過去幾年是因為烏鶴戰爭所導致於天然氣跟天然氣的價格比較高漲但是根據我們最近的這個最近"},{"start":1605.217,"end":1614.884,"text":"跟預測明年的這些材料的成本應該是不會再往上抓了所以他應該就會達到像委員知道的這樣的就是我們應該是不會再把這個價格調漲也不會再虧損"},{"start":1629.548,"end":1631.891,"text":"接下來針對偵查不公開請法務部長也一併上台"},{"start":1648.797,"end":1669.637,"text":"我想針對這個特定媒體在政論節目上面有特定媒體記者記者在政論節目上面他透露說北檢正在偵查階段偵辦中的金華城相關案件的內容表示他在地檢已經經營了7年的線而且對於消息的信任度達到200%"},{"start":1672.259,"end":1683.408,"text":"我們前幾天也看到北檢有傳喚幾個證人傳喚他以及幾個人所以這個事件北檢表示說不管是檢連掉"},{"start":1685.702,"end":1713.45,"text":"他們都不會去洩露這些偵查的內容那麼記者他是以多年的採訪經驗綜合分析判斷偵辦團隊絕對不會洩露偵查這個整個案情的內容所以我要請教這個院長因為本席知道這件事情之後我感到非常的瞠目結舌我想請教不管是院長或者我們部長"},{"start":1714.83,"end":1732.909,"text":"這件事情到底這個記者講說他掌握了200%的這個這個信息的來源而且200%是可靠的請問到底他為什麼能夠知道原因是什麼他到底如何掌握的"},{"start":1734.771,"end":1750.367,"text":"這部分北檢在9月9日有分案來做一個偵辦那所謂這位記者是在13日有接受北檢的一個詢問他是以證人身份來接受詢問的"},{"start":1752.227,"end":1754.588,"text":"部長部長我想請教一下這個記者他有拒絕政言的權利嗎是他有嗎"},{"start":1780.543,"end":1781.524,"text":"他不願意透露消息的來源他可以這樣嗎"},{"start":1802.151,"end":1826.309,"text":"這個檢方的回答就是發的聲明稿非常的含蓄這部分跟委員報告這部分只是檢方的一個初步的一個查證這個案件還沒解那我想這個還會再覺得那個整個一個案情的一個檢方的持續的一個瞭解說證我相信可以再有一個我進一步問部長如果部長這個案子如果北檢沒有辦法"},{"start":1848.465,"end":1850.106,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":1877.856,"end":1878.377,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝林委員"}]},"會議時間":"2024-09-20T10:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"15:51:14 - 16:22:36","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第1次會議（事由：行政院院長施政報告並備質詢）"},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}