{"error":false,"id":["154877"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":154877,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154877","日期":"2024-09-24","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"院會-11-2-1","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第2會期第1次會議","屆":11,"會期":2,"會次":1,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"院會","標題":"第11屆第2會期第1次會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-09-24T11:18:49+08:00","結束時間":"2024-09-24T11:50:09+08:00","影片長度":"00:31:20","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":644,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（11時19分）主席謝謝，麻煩請卓榮泰院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：洪委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：卓院長早。首先還是先就教全民所關心的議題，有高達八成的民眾遲遲是反對廢除死刑，廢除死刑人民沒有辦法接受，也不願意尊重，怎麼辦？這一次憲法法庭上禮拜做出了一個有條件的合憲判決，政府能夠接受嗎？院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：憲法法庭對憲法做出的解釋，它的位階是相當高的……"],["洪委員孟楷：我要問的是政府能夠接受嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以，我們現在應該形成社會的共同標準，但後面有一些相當的多的條件……"],["洪委員孟楷：社會的共識就是社會的共同標準，歷次到現在，有八成以上的民意都是反對廢除死刑，您認為現在臺灣社會有條件廢除死刑嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我還是遵照憲法法庭所說的有條件的合憲，在死刑這個制度上，基本上、原則上它是合憲。"],["洪委員孟楷：上午也有委員就教您，您個人到底是贊成廢除死刑？還是反對廢除死刑？院長，我能不能請教一下？其實我們也都很想瞭解部會首長，大家對於這個社會高度關心的議題，到底態度、立場是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：第一點，在憲法法庭這樣的解釋文之後，它應該成為一個共同的標準。第二點，如果要問我，我覺得社會重大的惡行，在法律所不允許的狀況底下，如果能夠遵照憲法上所規定的正當法律程序完成對一個人的防衛權利的抗辯之後，仍然由法官能夠來判處他應得的罪刑，這樣的行為應該被社會所接受，也應該依法執行。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以，您到底是贊成廢除死刑？還是反對廢除死刑？"],["卓院長榮泰：我剛才講過……"],["洪委員孟楷：聽起來你是反對廢除死刑嗎？是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：對不起？"],["洪委員孟楷：您反對廢除死刑是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：我覺得臺灣現在是有死刑存在的。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，有死刑存在。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們是依法行政。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是重點是沒有執行啊！過去到現在，尤其民進黨政府上任之後，其實執行死刑的狀況非常的少，而現在做出這樣的一個有條件合憲之後的判決，讓外界質疑在臺灣殺人比死刑更容易，難道不諷刺嗎？尤其大法官還做出了條件解釋，要一審、二審、三審法官都要一致判決，變成一票否定制，中華民國從上到下所有的制度裡面，有那麼嚴苛的制度嗎？行政院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以憲法法庭要行政院跟立法院合作，兩年內要修改相關的法律。"],["洪委員孟楷：他不是要我們行政、立法合作！現在看起來是司法院凌駕行政、立法耶！司法院凌駕行政院，因為如果有任何法官要判處死刑的話，全部的法官都要同意啊！法務部能夠接受嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長。"],["洪委員孟楷：過去法務部，我們在釋憲法庭的時候所講出來認為死刑是合憲的，有條件嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：死刑的制度在我們……"],["洪委員孟楷：法務部的立場，死刑有條件嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：立場我們認為是合憲的。"],["洪委員孟楷：判決死刑是有條件的嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們是尊重整個憲法法庭的……"],["洪委員孟楷：我在問是法務部的立場，不是你尊重憲法法庭！法務部的立場是什麼？判決死刑有沒有條件？有沒有要一審、二審，三審法官都一定要一致的判決，才能夠判決死刑？有沒有？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分法務部還是尊重……我們是依照憲法法庭……"],["洪委員孟楷：已經出來了，我現在在問的是法務部的意見有沒有……"],["鄭部長銘謙：……憲判字已經判決出來……"],["洪委員孟楷：有沒有條件？沒有條件嘛！那立法權，我們也講了，立法委員在過去所有世界民主國家裡面，死刑都是立法權來做決定、來訂立，可是今天是司法院凌駕行政跟立法院！院長，我再請教，現在有37名死刑犯已經三審定讞，其中最長的死刑犯24年了，已經定讞24年，1999年判決死刑到現在24年還沒有執行，現在既然有條件合憲，該不該執行？"],["卓院長榮泰：第一個，我覺得這兩天以來很多的討論，針對裡面……這37名當中，有幾位在程序上顯然不符合的，那個有一定的處理過程……"],["洪委員孟楷：我在問的是……"],["卓院長榮泰：其他的部分，應該由檢察單位，就他們該不該執行程序來做瞭解。"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，現在是由最高檢察署……"],["洪委員孟楷：法務部該不該執行？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們是依法處理。"],["洪委員孟楷：依法處理啊！我現在就是有條件合憲……"],["鄭部長銘謙：……37位死刑犯……"],["洪委員孟楷：37位是不是都可以非常上訴？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分的話……"],["洪委員孟楷：是不是都可以非常上訴？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這不一定要非常上訴……這個現在由最高檢察署來審……"],["洪委員孟楷：他們37位，是不是因為這一次的大法官解釋之後都可以非常上訴？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個要再審……"],["洪委員孟楷：再審不就是非常上訴？"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為每個個案不同嘛！"],["洪委員孟楷：所以加害者能夠非常上訴，那被害者誰幫他們上訴？被害者的家屬誰幫他們上訴？這不就是我們政府應該的責任嗎？所以院長，我再拉回來，我們這兩年、上一屆一直在討論所謂國民法官法、國民法官制度，但是今天大法官判決出來之後，憲法法庭要求一致性的判決，未來國民法官的案件，即便是六名國民法官都同意要判處死刑，但只要有一名職業法官反對，是不是就沒有辦法判處死刑？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們有發現到這樣的狀況，未來在執行上是否適當，所以就憲法法庭所說的，2年內要修改相關的條文，這當中是不是容許有更多的討論空間……"],["洪委員孟楷：也會把它納進來修法嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我是說，是不是容許有更多討論空間……"],["洪委員孟楷：行政部門會提出版本嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：而且能夠得到社會的認同，在行政、立法、司法之間也能取得平衡。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，我現在就是在就教您，現在就是要跟您確認這個議題嘛！六名國民法官如果一致都判處死刑，但只要有一名職業法官不同意就沒有辦法判處死刑，那是不是就是一個漏洞？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告……"],["洪委員孟楷：是不是就是大法官解釋之後形成的後續漏洞？有可能變成殺人犯，或者是罪大惡刑者的犯罪空間、逃脫條款，是不是？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是法院指出應該處理的問題，因為這個……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以行政院的態度是什麼？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們法務部會再配合修法，在修法之中會把我們的意見……"],["洪委員孟楷：會修法？所以會提出行政院的版本修法，是不是？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們行政部門會提意見……"],["洪委員孟楷：我只確認，會提出行政院版本的修法，把這個漏洞給補齊，是這樣嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個法院組織法的主管機關是司法院……"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：他們修法會跟行政院會銜，我們法務部會提出建議意見。"],["洪委員孟楷：你的意見是什麼？要修正這個漏洞？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個一致性的……"],["洪委員孟楷：要不要修正這個漏洞？我現在就問那麼簡單……院長，我還有很多問題，是不是請院長回答，好不好？院長，您的行政院版本會怎麼出來？會不會修正這個漏洞？"],["卓院長榮泰：剛剛部長說過，法院組織法的調整是司法院的職權，但我們認為可以討論的是，將來如何在執行上是可行的，這個可行也要符合社會大家共同的標準跟價值。"],["洪委員孟楷：這就是本席點出來的，大法官釋憲跟我們八成以上的民意背道而馳，這樣已經變成是實質廢死，臺灣現在真的沒有理由、沒有空間和條件廢死；本席希望未來有一天如果沒有這種重大惡行犯罪者，當我們社會天下太平，可以不要有死刑，但是重大惡行犯罪者還沒有防制之前，有死刑的嚇阻做最後一道防線，這是司法正義的最後一道防線。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我很負責任的跟委員說明……"],["洪委員孟楷：院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：憲法法庭所做的這個解釋不是廢死、並非廢死……"],["洪委員孟楷：但是它已經實質走向廢死的方向……"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有，它不是廢死，我們死刑是存在的。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，本席再跟您討論、就教下一個會期，部長可以先請回。","本席一直強調這個會期的重點是人事跟總預算，您也提到以人為先、團結合作。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，團結合作、以人為先，我想我們都同意，但重點在於團結不是只有你的團結是團結，在野黨的團結也是團結……"],["卓院長榮泰：當然。"],["洪委員孟楷：全民的團結是團結，所以凝聚共識非常重要，我想請教……"],["卓院長榮泰：整個國家的團結。"],["洪委員孟楷：當然，國家的團結、國家的方向一起走。我想請教，上禮拜五晚上，賴清德總統宴請民進黨籍的立委，並且經過轉述之後，賴總統說總預算被退回很罕見，所以民進黨團要求韓院長要進行朝野協商。本席也想請教，賴總統從當選總統到現在9個月的時間了，沒有跟在野黨包括國民黨團、民眾黨團有任何一個想要溝通的方向，或是想要溝通的表示，這是不是也很罕見？一個民選的總統，過去陳水扁總統也跟在野黨領袖拜會過，過去馬英九總統也跟在野黨領袖座談過，蔡英文總統也跟在野黨領袖座談過，那我想請教，9個月過去了，一個40%的少數民選總統，到目前為止沒有打算要跟在野黨有任何的溝通，是不是也很罕見？"],["卓院長榮泰：總統尊重五院體制的憲法結構，他不會……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以您說過去蔡英文不尊重囉？"],["卓院長榮泰：他不會輕易的啟動院際的協商，但是他跟……"],["洪委員孟楷：這不是院際協商啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：他跟五院院長在各種場合的碰面是都有的。"],["洪委員孟楷：這是朝野溝通。"],["卓院長榮泰：那如果……"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，我可以請教，您剛剛進來有接受媒體採訪，你也講說希望朝野進一步溝通……"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：那這個責任在誰身上？"],["卓院長榮泰：我希望我跟韓院長也能夠溝通……"],["洪委員孟楷：是。"],["卓院長榮泰：朝野黨團也能夠繼續溝通……"],["洪委員孟楷：還有包括行政部門跟立法部門溝通……"],["卓院長榮泰：行政、立法兩院也能繼續溝通……"],["洪委員孟楷：以及現在最重要是總統、執政團隊，執政黨跟在野黨的溝通不是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果院跟院之間的溝通不良，或是有任何的重大事件發生，似乎總統是可以依照憲法啟動院際協商，但這個不輕易的啟動。"],["洪委員孟楷：如果不輕易啟動，那什麼時候、什麼情況下會啟動？"],["卓院長榮泰：總統自有判斷。"],["洪委員孟楷：黨團也認為，現在這樣一個總預算以及包括人事的部分，對於我們一而再、再而三的要求或是說民眾的一個呼籲，行政部門沒有聽到、充耳不聞，這樣子不算嚴重嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們完全有聽到，而且願意更誠懇地跟大家談。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，您知不知道為什麼總統不願意跟在野黨有任何的溝通？"],["卓院長榮泰：總統沒有說不願意。"],["洪委員孟楷：可是都一直沒有做任何的行動啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：我說總統自有判斷。"],["洪委員孟楷：過去蔡英文總統、馬英九總統以及陳水扁總統都有這樣的動作，您自己的了解，總統不願意做這樣的動作的原因是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：總統沒有不願意，他自有判斷在什麼時機、用什麼方式。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以您覺得您也不願意跟總統建議，是不是應該也可以跟在野黨來互相的溝通，甚至是邀請在野黨來做所謂的國是會議，來做一個國是溝通？我相信在野黨應該都很樂意。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員的這席話，總統一定聽得到，不用我建議，總統一定會聽到大院委員的建議，他都非常重視。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，所以您說總統現在也在看我們立院的直播就對了？"],["卓院長榮泰：現在沒看，但他也會看到報導。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，我想請教院長，之前我們行政院江宜樺前院長，他也在上任的時候表態要拜會在野黨的領袖，當時民進黨的主席是蘇貞昌，雖然到最後沒有促成，但是我也想請教您個人的意願是？"],["卓院長榮泰：總統拜會在野黨領袖嗎？"],["洪委員孟楷：不是，行政院啊！您現在是行政院長，除非你想要當總統……"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，我……"],["洪委員孟楷：我現在講的是，行政院長表態要拜會在野黨領袖，您從520上任到現在也已經4個多月了，您自己有沒有這樣的打算？既然國民黨、在野黨跟執政黨好像現在溝通上是這樣，那您本身願不願意來拜會在野黨領袖？"],["卓院長榮泰：我現在的工作還是比較適宜跟韓院長還有其他的院長來做溝通，那各黨……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以您也不願意？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，各黨有各黨的主席，由主席去做溝通，我覺得黨務的交流是比較順暢的，我很願意跟韓院長溝通，其實我們各種溝通都很多的。"],["洪委員孟楷：各種溝通很多？這個我不知道，因為現在韓院長沒有辦法發言，我也不想問。"],["卓院長榮泰：他有微笑！"],["洪委員孟楷：但是本席的重點在什麼？就像您剛剛講的，臺灣、中華民國我們一起努力打拼啊！可是本席要講的是，執政者、擁有執政權力的人沒有多一點點善意，如果能夠多釋出一點橄欖枝，否則你要怎麼樣期待所謂的團結合作、以人為本？這是講真的還講假的？","再來，總預算、人事的部分，我們先討論人事，大法官人事連綠營內部都已經有罵聲，黨籍立委哀號「歹處理」！有這種事情嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為這個是總統府的作業，我也希望說……"],["洪委員孟楷：我想請教，上禮拜五你們有一起座談，因為民進黨上任8年以來，找所謂的立委溝通，都是找民進黨籍的立委，從來沒找過在野黨籍立委，不過沒關係，我尊重你們的作法，但重點是黨籍立委連人事也有意見了，現在的人事你也不溝通，沒有跟你們自己內部的民進黨立委溝通，你也不找在野黨立委溝通，那你們到底要溝通什麼？你認為之後的人事案會很順利得通過嗎？不管是NCC、不管是考試委員、不管是大法官，你認為會很順利得通過嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：總統府提名之後，自然會由總統府秘書長帶著這幾位被提名人到各黨團做正式的拜託，讓大家互相的認識，這個是絕對會做到的，我也希望大家能夠充分去了解他們個人的立場和過去的學經歷。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，說實在話，要溝通就拿出誠意，不要什麼事情面對到在野黨合理監督的時候就推給韓院長，韓院長已經是我們看過最公道的公道伯了，但是不要每一次溝通不順的時候就是要韓院長來朝野協商。因為如果要通過你們法案的時候，你們就是下達軍令狀，要求你們黨籍立委團進團出來投票。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我剛剛談話當中沒有這種意思，說韓院長溝通不良，沒有，我絕對沒有這種意思。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，想請教人事的部分，內閣團隊有沒有溝通不良的狀況？就是內部有沒有橫向溝通不良的狀況？"],["卓院長榮泰：一開始我承認有，漸漸的到現在為止，互相都知道彼此工作的角色要怎麼扮演，而且有充分的合作……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以已經從一開始上路卡卡的，到現在比較順暢了？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然是比較順暢。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，邱泰源部長跟環境部部長是怎麼回事？"],["卓院長榮泰：這問題剛剛上一位委員也有提到。"],["洪委員孟楷：我知道，但我現在只看到你們人前手牽手，背後怎麼樣……下一句我就不講了。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有。"],["洪委員孟楷：請邱部長跟彭部長請上臺。這件事情凸顯三個狀況，第一，網內互打對卓賴體制其實是損傷，坐實總統把手伸進行政體系。第二，卓院長是不是無視被架空、沒有領導統御？第三，會不會所有內閣團隊以後都有樣學樣，就直接跟總統報告就好了？邱部長，總統罵彭部長是你自己聽到的？總統告訴你？還是別人轉述跟你說？"],["邱部長泰源：沒有。我跟彭部長是多年好友，我們一直在討論醫療院所怎麼節能減碳……"],["洪委員孟楷：我是說總統罵……"],["邱部長泰源：在討論當中，這個我完全沒有跟總統有互動過。"],["洪委員孟楷：你沒有跟總統互動過？所以是彭部長告訴你說總統罵他？"],["邱部長泰源：不是罵，他是說……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以是彭部長告訴你，總統打給他？"],["邱部長泰源：對醫療院所節能減碳的活動非常肯定……"],["洪委員孟楷：邱部長，聽本席的問題！本席是問，你說總統打給彭部長這件事，是彭部長告訴你總統打給他？"],["邱部長泰源：是彭部長告訴我的。"],["洪委員孟楷：彭部長，接到總統的電話，有沒有第一時間跟卓院長報告？"],["彭部長啓明：有，其實我跟總統、跟卓院長，都常常在討論淨零減碳的事情，所以對於醫院部分，其實院長也很……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以總統確實不只一次打給你，要求你做與淨零減碳相關的政策？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有，其實我們……"],["洪委員孟楷：你剛剛說不時打電話，現在又說沒有？"],["彭部長啓明：不是。總統府有國家氣候變遷對策委員會，行政院會會先報告完，然後到國家氣候變遷委員會討論，所以討論的議題在這裡面。"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊，但打電話啊！剛剛邱部長證實你告訴他總統打電話給你，不管是罵或說。中華民國憲政體制再怎麼樣，現在最高行政首長是誰？"],["彭部長啓明：院長。"],["洪委員孟楷：行政院院長？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：說實在，你們的老闆、你們的領導人是行政院院長；你們的任命權，也是行政院院長任命的。一樣，今天總統貴為我們中華民國的元首，他可以私下打電話給你，跟你講政策，還要你補貼相關的醫療院所，這是不是已經介入行政體制？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員……"],["洪委員孟楷：我現在在請教彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實我每天都接到工總、商總各式各樣對淨零減碳的關心，包含……"],["洪委員孟楷：那是關心，你不一定做。但今天是總統打電話來！總統打電話來，你可以不做嗎？我剛剛請教，你第一時間接到總統電話後，有沒有跟卓院長報告？還是總統跟卓院長說了，卓院長指示你？這是體制的問題，你懂我意思嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：體制上我們跟院長都是在一起的，我們每個禮拜……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有在一起，因為卓院長剛剛已經承認了，說這件事他看了新聞才知道。換言之，你沒有主動跟卓院長報告……"],["卓院長榮泰：所謂看了新聞才知道是說，邱部長講的那句話我看了新聞才知道。"],["洪委員孟楷：對啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：他講的那句話我看了新聞才知道。"],["洪委員孟楷：他講總統罵彭部長？"],["卓院長榮泰：對，他講的這句話我看了新聞才知道。報告委員……"],["洪委員孟楷：其實這件事情……"],["卓院長榮泰：我講兩句話就好了……"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，我一個結論。說實在話，這件事其實是你們幾個部會首長自己私下的溝通，但我要凸顯的重點是什麼？第一，中華民國憲政體制；第二，責任政治。如果總統今天可以直接跟部長溝通的話，那我們邀請總統來做國情報告何錯之有？我們認為現在的雙首長制讓行政院長相對來說，就像總統的幕僚長或秘書長，而總統有實際的權力去指揮各部會首長，也因此我們才會說，希望總統能夠來做責任政治的報告……"],["卓院長榮泰：兩句話跟委員報告……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們現在講……"],["卓院長榮泰：部長也好，我也好，跟總統都會有公開或是固定在私底下見面的時間，都會有……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒錯嘛！我現在講的就是打電話……"],["卓院長榮泰：我會跟總統談說……"],["洪委員孟楷：這不嚴重……"],["卓院長榮泰：我跟總統會談說……"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，你要這樣唾面自乾我也沒有辦法。重點在於，如果今天你跟總統不同調的話……"],["卓院長榮泰：同調。"],["洪委員孟楷：總統是跳過你直接指揮……"],["卓院長榮泰：我的第二句話是，我跟部長的重要政策，在我跟總統的見面當中都會跟總統談，所以總統完全知道每個部會首長重要政策在推動的時程跟進度，他關心的是這個事情。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長……"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我可不可以……"],["洪委員孟楷：邱部長不要再打斷我的話，我現在請教院長。院長，這件事情凸顯什麼？第一，碳費基金要不要趕快訂立？碳費本來應該是今年上半年度就出來，但是到目前為止還沒有出來。"],["卓院長榮泰：環境部已經決定了。"],["洪委員孟楷：第二，基金的運用有沒有規則可循？絕對有啊，否則的話，今天各部會私下打電話，我要五毛、我要一塊，部長這邊就可以來做這個小金庫，這樣完全不對。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有這種事情。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以是不是應該要法制化作業？"],["卓院長榮泰：碳費的決定怎麼實施，環境部已經完整，相關的三個子法也出來了……"],["彭部長啓明：對，三個子法已經在8月底公布了，一般費率300到500塊已經定了，現在就是優惠費率……"],["洪委員孟楷：還沒有最後的確認嘛，所以我剛剛上來質詢之前才要確認的是，其實最後一次你們才把所謂的碳費確認出來嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：已經確認了。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，拉回來總預算的部分，兩位部長請回。","有關總預算的部分，我們看最先進民主國家美國，美國從1974年到2023年，全國家的總預算真正能夠在預設時間內通過的，在49年的這49次裡面有幾次，院長知道嗎？只有4次，美國……"],["卓院長榮泰：我認為能夠在法定時間通過對每個國家、每個人民都好。"],["洪委員孟楷：美國這個成熟民主國家在總預算預設時間內通過4次，在49次裡面只有4次。立法院在上禮拜五確實我們做出了一個決議，是大家投票通過退回行政院所提出的總預算，這是明年度的，最主要有幾個原因，第一，2016年馬政府最後一年的時候，全國總預算是一兆九千多億，但是過去民進黨8年執政之後，尤其賴清德總統的第一年預算居然高達史上破天荒的3兆，這是創歷史新高。第二，我們也認為裡面有一些預算應編列沒編列、該編列沒編列，是不是應該要做調整？第三，有一些預算明顯有浮編或浮報的狀況，包括宣傳費用大漲的部分，我們也請行政部門的算盤是不是能夠再做個檢討或討論？其實站的角度是什麼？就是為人民把關嘛，我的原則很簡單，預算當用則用、當省則省。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒錯。"],["洪委員孟楷：你可以問一下每個部會，如果說有來我辦公室的，只要他們來，我說為中華民國做事、為臺灣2,350萬人做事，我對預算絕對不會刁難。但是如果說沒有，而是用政治意識形態或是讓我覺得你們有浮編、濫編的狀況，很抱歉，我們不會手軟。現在退回預算，其實只要行政部門馬上調整，再送進來，我們來做檢視，都可以進入到立法院再做實質的討論，因為進入到委員會後，立法委員只能刪減預算、凍結預算，不能增加預算，這點院長你也很清楚吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，行政院編列預算就是法定的權限。"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊，所以我們現在退回總預算，我現在要請教，在我們退回總預算之後，行政部門有沒有打算調整預算？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們希望盡力的透過朝野黨團繼續協商。"],["洪委員孟楷：有沒有打算？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們希望儘快的付委，委員剛剛所說的那幾項都正確……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以你沒有打算要做任何的調整？"],["卓院長榮泰：你剛剛說的那幾項都正確……"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，我可不可以直接確認一下……"],["卓院長榮泰：都可以在實質審查裡面呈現出來。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，我只要確認一件事情，院長，我確認一件事情，行政院這一次編列史上最高3兆元預算，我們現在退回，我們也說只要行政部門趕快重新審議編列都可以再送進來，而且更重要的是預算法第五十四條有規定，一般性費用、人事費用、補償費用、補貼費用、一般性例行計畫是不受預算審查的限制，換言之，即便我們到12月底以前沒有通過明年的總預算，但是明年1月一樣該發的薪水會發，該補貼的計畫會補貼，例行計畫也會照走，是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：行政院……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以沒有影響到我們一般的，包括育兒津貼、衛福支出、社福支出等都沒有影響，人事費用也沒有影響。"],["卓院長榮泰：行政院知道這個規定。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們現在要問的是，請聽清楚我的問題，我們退回預算，行政部門有沒有打算做任何的調整？還是沒有，就是這樣鐵板一塊？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，行政院知道一般的預算我們可以執行，但是我們不會因此而怠惰跟立法院的溝通。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，那我現在講……"],["卓院長榮泰：第二點，很多的新增預算代表了我們下一個年度政府的政策，新增預算無法執行，政府大開腳步向前走的速度就會慢。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，讓我再提醒一下，以人為本、團結合作，但你的團結就變成是我說的才算啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有，在國家的團結底下……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們現在認為預算應該要重新調整，但你們不要調整，就是不要調整，3兆那麼多，但你們不要調整，這就是行政院的態度……"],["卓院長榮泰：剛剛委員所說的，在實質審查時都可以達到這樣的功能。"],["洪委員孟楷：我只請教一件事，是不是就是您的態度？不會調整？有沒有調整的空間啦？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們希望繼續溝通，希望能夠儘速付委，之後大院就實質審查、詳細審查，我們誠意的溝通跟說明。"],["洪委員孟楷：韓院長，卓院長丟一個難題給你，他完全不退讓，完全鐵板一塊，但是就要求立法院長做朝野協商，這就是現在民進黨政府執政下的嘴臉！"],["卓院長榮泰：我是維護行政院預算的完整性，預算權的完整性。"],["洪委員孟楷：我還要請教的是宣傳費大增，尤其去年宣傳費用九億二百多萬，我認為這其實已經比馬政府時代又多編了很多，我一直強調，我相信卓院長應該也認同，做的好，大家會幫你做宣傳，不用你自己自誇自擂自吹，但如果做不好，只想要粉飾太平的話，民眾沒有辦法接受。今年全中央部會的宣傳預算高達十四億九千多萬，將近15億，暴增了5億9,000萬，我想請教，宣傳費用多了五億多，將近6億，有這個需要嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，去年的九億多是去年審查之後，打折之後的預算。"],["洪委員孟楷：買廣告、做電視、網路，我甚至沒有講網軍喔，但我想說電視等相關部分，即便你有講到只增加了三億多，三億多不是錢嗎？三億多可以有多少營養午餐，三億多能夠有多少的學童補助，這難道不是費用嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：光是……"],["洪委員孟楷：為什麼要增加這麼多？"],["卓院長榮泰：在三億多裡面，內政部因為打詐相關所編列的就有2.3億。"],["洪委員孟楷：打詐，漂亮，非常好！院長，你講到打詐我就來討論打詐，昨天的新聞，101的董座講了什麼？她撂狠話說：「有種不要下架」，她要下架什麼？她要下架詐騙集團假冒她的名字的網路廣告。我們看下一張，我們打詐三法、打詐五法通過了，昨天賈永婕還在個人臉書上又貼說現在有詐騙集團冒她的名在做詐騙廣告。我說實在話，我們編列5億、10億的預算去宣傳打詐，抵不上一個賈永婕在臉書上發一篇她又被詐騙的文，為什麼？因為這代表的是國人一而再、再而三……"],["卓院長榮泰：所以這個打詐我們會有處理……"],["洪委員孟楷：你要執法權力，我們給你執法權力，你要執法空間，我們給你執法空間，但是到目前為止，這樣的詐騙廣告還是層出不窮啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：所以每次出來我們都會……"],["洪委員孟楷：你還好意思講說打詐的宣傳要增加，從原本的一千四百多萬變成2億3,000萬，增加將近20倍！你1年的打詐預算比過去8年蔡英文執政的預算還要多，你知道嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我請內政部長來說明我們增加的內容。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，你知道你1年的打詐預算比過去蔡英文執政8年的打詐預算還要多，你知道嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為大家都希望能夠遏止詐騙這個歪風，我們也全力在進行……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以蔡英文政府的時候不希望嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們全力在進行。"],["洪委員孟楷：來，院長，我再來跟你討論本席的選區──淡水、林口在端午中秋節都有發生大陸人士突破海防的狀況，海委會說要6,000名的海巡志工，海巡署又說沒有規劃，請問院長知道這個事情嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個牽扯到治安，甚至是國安問題，我覺得這個要整體規劃，整體規劃才能產生出一個聯合防衛的效果。"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊，所以一個是主委說要6,000名志工，但海巡署馬上出來說沒有規劃。"],["管主任委員碧玲：報告委員，沒有喔，完全沒有6,000名海巡志工這件事，我們也不了解這個新聞怎麼來的。"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有？"],["管主任委員碧玲：對，完全不了解……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以管碧玲主委表示編列6,000名海巡志工……"],["管主任委員碧玲：沒有，完全沒有，完全沒有！"],["洪委員孟楷：所以這個新聞是假新聞囉？"],["管主任委員碧玲：不知道，連署長都不知道，沒有任何人知道這個新聞怎麼來的。"],["洪委員孟楷：這個新聞是假新聞？要不要跟這個媒體提告？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們沒有提告，但是我們有澄清，對於6,000名海巡志工這件事情完全沒有人聽說過……"],["洪委員孟楷：好。院長，我只請教，因為我們發生事情之後……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們的海巡志工是救生救難，我們有3個海巡志工隊都是為了救生救難。"],["洪委員孟楷：我還是強調，我們共同防護海巡，我們共同支持海巡，今年海巡有編列了1億的紅外線相關建置計畫……"],["管主任委員碧玲：太少了，1億太少了。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，但是至少我們在所謂的紅色海灘裡面要建置吧？到目前為止，18處的紅色海灘你們建置了幾處？"],["管主任委員碧玲：報告委員，這個部分能不能容許我們不公開說明我們建置在什麼地點？因為我想還是某種程度會牽涉機敏。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是至少本席講到的，本席的淡水以及林口這兩個紅色海灘，也是我們之前國防部所規劃的，都沒有建置啊！所以你才沒有辦法掌握有遊艇、小艇進來到我們河口的狀況，不是嗎？這就是現在的問題嘛。"],["管主任委員碧玲：對，所以我們……"],["洪委員孟楷：你今年已經有編列1億的預算，但是你到目前為止，連最重要的18處的紅色海灘都沒有建置，那你怎麼有辦法說服國人說，我們有保衛國家的決心？"],["管主任委員碧玲：1億沒有辦法……"],["洪委員孟楷：這才是真真正正的重點。"],["管主任委員碧玲：1億沒有辦法包括所有的紅色海灘，所以我們的計畫是很龐大的，要……"],["主席：好。"],["洪委員孟楷：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員的質詢，也謝謝卓院長的備詢。","報告院會，上午的質詢到此為止，下午兩點三十分繼續開會，進行施政報告之質詢。現在休息，謝謝大家。","休息（11時50分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":322,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-1","speakers":["韓國瑜","張啓楷","陳培瑜","羅智強","林國成","陳瑩","洪孟楷","黃秀芳","謝龍介","李柏毅","賴士葆","許智傑","黃健豪","陳素月"],"page_start":233,"meetingDate":["2024-09-24"],"gazette_id":"1137501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137501_00003","1137501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第1次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n行政院院長施政報告並備質詢─ 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115.909,"end":122.595,"text":"我第一點在憲法法庭這樣的解釋文之後他應該成為一個共同的標準第二點如果要問我我覺得"},{"start":123.803,"end":127.085,"text":"所以您到底是贊成廢除死刑還是反對廢除死刑?"},{"start":154.178,"end":179.504,"text":"您反對廢除死刑是不是我覺得台灣現在是有死刑是存在的是有死刑存在但是重點是沒有執行啊過去到現在現在尤其民進黨政府上任之後其實執行死刑的狀況非常的少而現在在做出這樣的一個和有條件合憲之後的一個判決讓外界質疑啊在台灣殺人比死刑更容易難道不諷刺嗎"},{"start":180.529,"end":193.248,"text":"由其大法官還做出了條件解釋要一審二審三審法官都要一致判決變成一票否定制中華民國從上到下所有的制度裡面有那麼嚴苛的制度嗎?行政院長"},{"start":195.04,"end":217.874,"text":"所以這個憲法法庭要我行政院跟立法院合作兩年內要修改相關的他不是要我們行政立法合作現在看起來是司法院凌駕行政立法司法院凌駕行政院因為認為是行政院如果說要有任何法官要判處死刑的話全部的這個法官都要同意法務部能夠接受嗎"},{"start":219.212,"end":224.553,"text":"法務部過去我們在釋憲法庭的時候所講出來的認為死刑是合憲的有條件嗎"},{"start":229.626,"end":251.313,"text":"法務部的立場、死刑有條件嗎?判決死刑是有條件的嗎?我在問是法務部的立場,不是你尊重憲法法庭法務部的立場是什麼?判決死刑有沒有條件?有沒有要一審、二審、三審法官都一定要定讞都一定要一致的判決才能夠判決死刑?有沒有?"},{"start":252.154,"end":257.498,"text":"立法委員在過去所有世界民主國家裡面 死刑都是立法權來做決定來訂立可是今天是司法院凌駕行政跟立法院"},{"start":277.779,"end":298.409,"text":"院長我再請教現在有37名死刑犯是已經三審定業其中最長的死刑犯24年已經定業24年1999年判決死刑到現在24年還沒有執行現在既然有條件核限該不該執行"},{"start":300.523,"end":305.284,"text":"法務部該不該執行我們是在依法處理依法處理阿我現在就是有條件和限那該37位是不是都可以非常上訴"},{"start":328.916,"end":329.136,"text":"所以院長"},{"start":356.055,"end":379.751,"text":"我再拉回來我們這兩年上一屆一直在討論的是所謂國民法官法國民法官制度但是今天大法官判決出來之後所謂的憲法法庭要求一致性的判決未來國民法官的案件即便是六名國民法官都同意他要判處死刑但只要有一名職業法官反對是不是就沒有辦法判處死刑"},{"start":380.76,"end":407.845,"text":"我們有發現到這樣的一個狀況在未來執行上是否適當所以在這個憲法法庭所說的兩年內要修改相關的條文當中是不是這個部分容許有更多的討論空間也會把他納進來修法嗎我是說容許是不是容許有更多討論空間行政部門會提出版本嗎能夠得到社會的認同那麼在行政立法跟司法之間也能取得平衡現在就是要跟您確認這個議題嘛"},{"start":409.885,"end":426.161,"text":"6名國民法官如果說一致都判處死刑但只要1名職業法官不同意他就沒有辦法判處死刑那是不是就是一個漏洞是不是就是大法官解釋之後沒有辦法形成的後續的漏洞有可能變成是殺人犯或者是罪大惡行者的一個犯罪空間逃脫條款"},{"start":430.136,"end":446.601,"text":"這是法院指出應該處理的問題所以行政院您的態度是什麼那這邊法務部的話我們會再配合修法會修法所以會提出行政院的版本修法是不是我只確認會提出行政院版本修法把這個漏洞給補齊是這樣嗎"},{"start":450.11,"end":459.285,"text":"這個法院主管的機關是司法院那這部分他們修法會跟行政院會選那法務部的話我們會提出我們的建議意見"},{"start":461.308,"end":488.413,"text":"你的意見是什麼?要修正這個漏洞?要不要修正這個漏洞?我現在就問那麼簡單院長我還有很多問題是不是請院長回答好不好?院長您的行政院版本會怎麼出來?會不會修正這個漏洞?剛剛部長說過法院組織法的調整這個是司法院的職權但我們認為可以討論的是如何將來在執行上它是可行的這個可行也要符合到社會大家共同的標準跟價值"},{"start":489.284,"end":497.202,"text":"就是本席點出來大法官的視線就是跟我們八成以上的民意背道而馳這樣變成是已經實質廢死"},{"start":499.568,"end":500.789,"text":"委員 我很負責的跟委員說明 憲法法庭所說的這個結結是 不是廢死"},{"start":529.468,"end":530.008,"text":"以人為先團結合作"},{"start":549.198,"end":560.352,"text":"團結合作以人為先我想我們都同意但重點是團結不是只有你的團結是團結在野黨的團結也是團結當然全民的團結是團結所以凝聚共識非常重要"},{"start":561.485,"end":583.772,"text":"我們想請教啊當然國家的團結國家的方向一起走啊那我想請教上禮拜禮拜五晚上說賴清德總統驗起民進黨籍的立委那並且轉述之後賴總統說總預算被退回很罕見所以要求民進黨團要求韓院長要進行朝野協商那本席也想請教賴總統從當選總統到現在9個月的時間了沒有跟在野黨"},{"start":589.335,"end":599.491,"text":"包括國民黨團包括民眾黨團有任何的想要溝通的一個方向或是想要溝通的一個表示是不是這也很罕見"},{"start":600.612,"end":622.177,"text":"一個民選的總統過去陳水扁總統也跟在野黨領袖拜會過過去馬英九總統也跟在野黨領袖座談過蔡英文總統也跟在野黨領袖座談過我想請教9個月過去了一個40%的少數民選總統到目前為止沒有打算要跟在野黨有任何的溝通是不是也很罕見"},{"start":623.751,"end":648.354,"text":"總統尊重五院體制的憲法結構他不會輕易的啟動院紀的協商但是他跟五院院長在各種場合的朝野溝通院長我可以請教您剛剛進來的時候有接受媒體採訪媒體採訪您也講是說希望朝野進一步溝通那這個責任在誰身上"},{"start":650.08,"end":672.713,"text":"我希望我跟韓院長也能夠溝通是 朝野黨團也能夠繼續溝通還有包括行政部門跟立法部門溝通以及現在最重要是總統執政團隊執政黨跟在野黨的溝通不是嗎如果院跟院之間的溝通不良或是有任何的重大事件發生那我似乎總統是可以依照憲法啟動院際協商那這個不輕易的啟動"},{"start":673.573,"end":693.603,"text":"不經意啟動那什麼時候什麼情況下是啟動總統是有判斷黨團也認為說現在的這樣的一個總預算以及包括人事的部分我們對於行政部門一而再再三我們要求或說民眾的一個呼籲行政部門沒有聽到從而不聞這樣子不算嚴重嗎我們完全聽到而且願意"},{"start":695.075,"end":695.975,"text":"蔡英文總統 馬英九總統 陳水扁總統"},{"start":710.37,"end":728.163,"text":"您自己的瞭解總統不願意做這樣動作的原因是什麼總統沒有不願意他自有判斷在什麼時機用什麼方式所以您覺得您也不願意跟總統建議說是不是應該也可以跟在野黨來互相的溝通甚至如果說邀請在野黨來做這個所謂的這個國事會議"},{"start":729.284,"end":756.064,"text":"來做一個國事溝通我相信在野黨應該都很樂意委員的這幾話總統一定聽得到不用我建議總統一定聽到大院委員的建議他都非常重視好那所以您說總統現在在看我們立院的直播就對了現在沒看他也沒看到報導那我們來看一下那我想請教院長咧院長之前我們行政院江怡化前院長他也在上任的時候表態說要拜會在野黨的領袖當時民進黨的主席是蘇貞昌"},{"start":757.385,"end":778.403,"text":"雖然到最後沒有促成但是我也想請教您個人的意願呢總統拜會在野黨領袖嗎不是 行政院啊您現在是行政院長除非您想要當總統否則我現在講是說行政院長表態要拜會在野黨的領袖啊那現在您也從520上任到現在也已經4個多月了嘛您自己有沒有這種打算"},{"start":779.44,"end":794.819,"text":"既然國民黨跟在野黨跟這個執政黨好像現在溝通上那您本身願不願意來拜會在黨領袖我現在的工作還是比較適宜跟韓院長還有其他的院長我們來做溝通那各黨的主席"},{"start":797.942,"end":798.203,"text":"主席韓議員"},{"start":817.602,"end":820.303,"text":"大法官人士連綠營內部都已經有罵聲黨籍立委哀嚎拍出力"},{"start":847.162,"end":871.884,"text":"有這件事嗎那我希望因為這個是總統府的作業啦總統府的作業是那我也希望說我想請教上禮拜五你們一起座談因為民進黨上任8年以來找所謂的立委溝通都是找民進黨籍的立委從來沒找過這樣的黨籍立委不過沒關係我尊重你們的做法但重點是黨籍立委連人事也有意見了"},{"start":872.705,"end":898.976,"text":"那你現在人事你也不溝通你們沒有跟你們自己內部民進黨的立委溝通你也不早在野黨立委溝通那你們到底要溝通什麼這個在總統府作業完提名之後不管NCC不管考試委員不管大法官你認為會很順利的通過嗎他自然會有黨的祕書總統府祕書長帶著這幾位被提名人到各黨團做正式的拜託讓大家互相的認識這個是絕對會做到的"},{"start":903.027,"end":919.365,"text":"所以我一個結論啦 院長 院長 說實在話要溝通拿出誠意 不要什麼事情 面對到在野黨的合理的監督的時候就推給韓院長韓院長已經是我們最看到 最公道的公道伯了"},{"start":920.236,"end":945.362,"text":"但是不要每一次溝通不順的時候韓院長朝野協商那如果說你們要你們通過你們的法案的時候你們就是下達軍令狀要求你們黨籍立委團進團出來投票報告我剛剛的談話當中沒有這種意思說韓院長溝通不良沒有 我絕對沒有這種意思院長想請教人事的部分內閣團隊有沒有溝通不良的狀況 內部"},{"start":947.452,"end":974.505,"text":"一開始我承認有那漸漸的到現在為止互相都知道彼此的工作的角色要怎麼扮演而且有充分的合作所以已經從一開始上路KK到現在比較順暢當然是比較順暢那邱太元部長跟我們環境部部長這是怎麼回事這剛剛委員剛剛上一個委員也有推出過我知道啊但是我現在只有看到你人牽手牽手啊但背後怎麼樣下一句我就不講了"},{"start":976.319,"end":978.401,"text":"我直接向總統報告就好啊來 那個邱部長總統罵 彭部長"},{"start":1005.278,"end":1023.194,"text":"是你自己有聽到總統告訴你還是別人轉述跟你說沒有因為我跟彭部長是多人的好友我們一直在討論醫療演說怎麼樣來解釋我只是說總統罵在討論的當中這個我完全沒有跟總統有互動過你沒有跟總統互動過所以是彭部長告訴你說總統罵他"},{"start":1024.475,"end":1026.776,"text":"接到總統的電話有沒有第一時間跟卓院長報告"},{"start":1048.908,"end":1074.916,"text":"有其實我跟總統跟卓院長我們都常常在討論這個淨零減碳的事情所以這個議院的部分其實院長也很所以總統確實已經不只一次打給你要求你做相關淨零減碳的政策沒有其實我們在你剛說不實打電話現在又說沒有不是就是我們在這個總統有國家氣候變遷對策委員會我們行政院會先報告完然後到國家氣候變遷委員會裡面去討論所以這個討論的議題在這個裡面都有在裡面"},{"start":1078.57,"end":1078.59,"text":"院長"},{"start":1094.366,"end":1112.091,"text":"行政院院長你們的老闆說實在你們的領導人是行政院院長你們的任命權也是行政院院長任命的那一樣啊總統今天他貴為我們中華民國的元首他可以私下打電話給你跟你講一個政策還要你補貼相關的醫療院所"},{"start":1114.281,"end":1131.351,"text":"這是不是已經介入到了行政體制報告委員我現在在請教彭部長報告委員其實我每天都接到公總商總各式各樣對淨零減碳的關心那個是關心阿但你不一定做嘛但今天是總統打電話來阿總統打電話來你可以不做嗎"},{"start":1132.952,"end":1153.687,"text":"而且我剛剛就請教的是說你有沒有第一時間接到總統電話之後你跟卓院長報告還是總統跟卓院長說了卓院長跟你指示這是體制的問題你懂我意思嗎我們體制上我們跟院長都是在一起的我們每個禮拜沒有在一起的因為卓院長剛剛已經承認了他說這件事件是他看了新聞才知道"},{"start":1154.912,"end":1178.855,"text":"所以換言之你沒有主動跟卓院長報告我剛看了新聞才知道是說邱部長講的那句話我看了新聞才知道他講的那句話我看了新聞才知道他講說總統罵彭部長對他講這些我看新聞才知道報告委員喔我其實這件事情來院長我兩句話就好了院長我一個結論啦這件事情其實是說實在的話你們幾個部會首長自己私下的溝通但重點我要突顯是什麼"},{"start":1179.616,"end":1191.306,"text":"第一 中華民國憲政體制第二 責任政治如果說總統今天可以直接跟部長來做溝通的話那我們邀請總統來做國情報告何錯之有"},{"start":1192.065,"end":1192.245,"text":"沒錯嘛"},{"start":1216.254,"end":1243.517,"text":"我現在講的就是說打電話指示我會跟總統談說這不嚴重我跟總統會談說院長你要這樣拓滅自乾我沒有辦法但是重點在於是今天如果說你跟總統是不同調的話那總統是跳過你直接指揮第二句話是說我跟部長的重要的政策我在跟總統的見面當中我都會跟總統談所以總統都完全知道每一個部會所長重要政策在推動的時程跟進度"},{"start":1244.678,"end":1272.938,"text":"關心的是這個事情院長來 院長 邱部長不要再打斷我的話我現在請教院長院長 這件事情其實凸顯什麼第一 碳費基金要不要趕快訂立碳費應該 本來應該是今年上半年度就出來但到目前為止還沒有出來第二 基金的運用有沒有規則可循 絕對有否則的話各部會今天私下打電話 我要"},{"start":1274.002,"end":1275.663,"text":"所以是不是應該要法制化作業?"},{"start":1284.482,"end":1284.842,"text":"總預算的部分"},{"start":1314.164,"end":1333.2,"text":"我們看最先進民主國家美國美國從1974年到2023年他們全國家的總預算真正能夠在預設時間通過的49年49次裡面有幾次 院長知道嗎"},{"start":1335.623,"end":1336.744,"text":"美國在預設時間可以通過49次"},{"start":1349.858,"end":1376.886,"text":"立法院上禮拜五確實我們做出一個決議是大家投票通過是退回行政院所提出來的總預算這是明年最主要幾個原因第一2016年馬政府最後一年的時候全國的總預算是一兆九千多億但是過去民進黨八年執政之後尤其賴清德總統的第一年預算居然高砸史上破天荒的三兆這是創歷史新高"},{"start":1378.86,"end":1399.875,"text":"我們也認為說裡面有一些預算因編列沒編列 剛編列沒編列是不是應該要做調整以及第三 有一些預算明顯就已經有服編或是服報的狀況包括說宣傳費用大漲的部分我們也請行政部門是不是能夠算盤來再做一個檢討或討論其實站在角度是什麼"},{"start":1400.555,"end":1412.664,"text":"就是為人民把關嘛我的原則很簡單預算當用則用當審則審你可以問一下每一個部會如果說來我辦公室的只要他們來我說為中華民國做事為台灣2350萬人做事我預算絕對不會刁難"},{"start":1415.586,"end":1438.644,"text":"但是如果說沒有而是用政治意識形態或是讓我覺得是說你們有浮邊爛邊的狀況很抱歉我們不會手軟但現在退回預算其實只要行政部門馬上調整再送進來我們來做檢視都可以進入到立法院再做實質的討論因為進入到委員會立法委員只能刪減預算只能凍結預算不能增加預算"},{"start":1439.724,"end":1459.612,"text":"這點院長你也很清楚啊所以我們現在退回總預算我現在要請教我們現在退回總預算之後行政部門有沒有打算調整預算我們希望盡力的通過朝野黨團有沒有打算我們希望盡快的赴委委員剛剛所說的那幾項都正確你剛剛說的那幾項都正確都可以在實質審查裡面呈現出來院長我確認一件事情"},{"start":1467.697,"end":1479.333,"text":"行政院這次編列史上最高3兆元預算我們現在退回我們也說只要行政部門趕快再重新審議編列都可以再送進來而且更重要的是預算法54條裡面有規定"},{"start":1481.308,"end":1499.423,"text":"一般性的費用人事費用補償費用補貼費用一般性例行計畫是不受預算的這個審查的限制換言之就是即便我們到12月底以前沒有通過明年的總預算但是明年1月一樣該發的薪水會發該補貼的這個計畫會補貼例行的計畫會照走"},{"start":1506.15,"end":1506.79,"text":"行政院知道"},{"start":1529.574,"end":1557.91,"text":"一般的預算我們可以執行但是我們不會因此而怠惰跟立法院的溝通第二點 很多的新增預算代表我們下一個年度政府的政策新增預算就無法執行政府大開表步向前走的速度就會慢以人為本 團結合作你的團結就變成是說我說的才算啊我們現在認為是說你應該要去重新調整不要 我不要調整"},{"start":1558.789,"end":1574.496,"text":"我就是不要調整三跳那麼多我不要調整在實質審查都可以達到這樣的功能我再請教一件事是不是就是您的態度不會調整有沒有調整空間啦我們需要繼續溝通希望那個禁訴復違之後呢大院就實質審查詳細審查我們誠意的溝通跟說明"},{"start":1578.553,"end":1607.252,"text":"卓院長丟一個難題給你阿他完全不退讓完全鐵板一塊但是就要求立法院長做超越協商這就是現在民進黨政府執政下的嘴臉那我也請教宣傳大增尤其去年宣傳費用9億200多萬我其實認為阿這已經比馬政府時代的時候又多編了很多那我一直強調我相信卓院長應該也認同"},{"start":1608.908,"end":1630,"text":"做得好 大家會幫你倒選團 不用你自己自誇自擂自吹但如果做不好 只想要粉飾太平的話 民眾沒有辦法接受那今年 全中央部會總預算高達14億9千多萬 將近15億暴增了5億9千萬我想請教 宣傳費用多了5億多6億 剛我這個需要"},{"start":1632.859,"end":1648.539,"text":"報告委員去年的9億多是去年 網路我甚至沒有講說網絡的預算但我想是說電視這一些相關的部分即便您有講到只增加了3億多3億多不是錢嗎"},{"start":1650.067,"end":1674.054,"text":"3億多可以有多少營養午餐3億多能夠有多少血統補助這難道不是費用嗎為什麼要增加那麼多3億多裡面內政部因為打詐相關的編列2.3億院長你就講打詐我就來討論打詐昨天的新聞101董作他講什麼他說廖恆化有種不要下架他要下架什麼"},{"start":1676.475,"end":1694.388,"text":"下架詐騙集團假冒他的名字的網路廣告我們看下一張我們已經打詐三法通過了打詐五法通過了昨天 賈詠潔都還在他個人臉書上又在貼講說現在有詐騙集團冒他的名做這樣的一個詐騙廣告我說實在話"},{"start":1697.56,"end":1705.106,"text":"我們編列5億10億的預算去宣傳打詐底不上一個賈詠潔她在臉書上發一篇她又被詐騙的文"},{"start":1706.736,"end":1708.898,"text":"打詐的宣傳要增加從原本的1400多萬變成兩億三千萬增加將近20倍"},{"start":1729.308,"end":1731.089,"text":"來 院長我再來跟你討論本期的選區啊淡水"},{"start":1758.069,"end":1759.25,"text":"院長請問知道這個事情嗎?"},{"start":1772.856,"end":1799.958,"text":"這個牽扯到治安甚至是國安的問題我覺得這個要整體的規劃整體的規劃才能反昇出一個一個是主委說要六千名志工一個海巡署馬上出來講說沒有規劃報告委員沒有 完全沒有六千名海巡志工這件事我們也不瞭解這個新聞怎麼來的所以管碧玲主委表示沒有 完全沒有那這個新聞是假新聞囉不知道 連署長都不知道沒有任何人知道這個新聞怎麼來的那要不要跟這個媒體來提告"},{"start":1800.939,"end":1828.813,"text":"我們沒有提告但是我們有澄清但是6000名海巡志工在這次事件完全沒有人聽說過院長那我只請教因為我們發生事件之後我還是想叫我們各同防護海巡我們也各同支持海巡那今年海巡有編列了1億的紅外線的相關的建置計畫太少了1億太少了是但是至少我們在所謂的紅色海灘裡面你要建置吧到目前為止18座紅色海灘我們建置了幾處"},{"start":1829.733,"end":1834.615,"text":"但是至少本席講到的本席的淡水以及林口這兩個紅色海灘也是我們之前國防部所規劃的都沒有建置阿"},{"start":1873.609,"end":1874.79,"text":"謝謝洪孟楷委員的質詢：也謝謝卓院長的備詢"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:19:12.404000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:19:13.045000+08:00","text":"主席謝謝，麻煩請卓榮泰院長。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-09-24T11:19:13.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:19:13.325000+08:00","text":"麻煩再請卓院長備詢。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:19:13.325000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:19:17.351250+08:00","text":"洪委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:19:17.351250+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:19:21.377500+08:00","text":"卓院長早。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:19:21.377500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:19:25.403750+08:00","text":"首先還是先就教全民所關心的議題，有高達八成的民眾遲遲是反對廢除死刑，廢除死刑人民沒有辦法接受，也不願意尊重，怎麼辦？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:19:25.403750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:19:29.430000+08:00","text":"這一次憲法法庭上禮拜做出了一個有條件的合憲判決，政府能夠接受嗎？院長。","quality":0.188},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:19:29.430000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:19:30.411000+08:00","text":"憲法法庭對憲法做出的解釋，它的位階是相當高的……","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:19:54.629000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:19:58.890000+08:00","text":"我要問的是政府能夠接受嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:19:58.890000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:20:05.012000+08:00","text":"所以，我們現在應該形成社會的共同標準，但後面有一些相當的多的條件……","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:20:05.132000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:20:14.774000+08:00","text":"社會的共識就是社會的共同標準，歷次到現在，有八成以上的民意都是反對廢除死刑，您認為現在臺灣社會有條件廢除死刑嗎？","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:20:16.858000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:20:23.803000+08:00","text":"我還是遵照憲法法庭所說的有條件的合憲，在死刑這個制度上，基本上、原則上它是合憲。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:20:24.283000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:20:30.087000+08:00","text":"上午也有委員就教您，您個人到底是贊成廢除死刑？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:20:30.288000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:20:31.108000+08:00","text":"還是反對廢除死刑？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:20:32.609000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:20:33.650000+08:00","text":"院長，我能不能請教一下？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:20:34.471000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:20:43.117000+08:00","text":"其實我們也都很想瞭解部會首長，大家對於這個社會高度關心的議題，到底態度、立場是什麼？","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:20:45.049000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:20:49.814000+08:00","text":"第一點，在憲法法庭這樣的解釋文之後，它應該成為一個共同的標準。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:20:49.814000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:20:52.803000+08:00","text":"第二點，如果要問我，我覺得社會重大的惡行，在法律所不允許的狀況底下，如果能夠遵照憲法上所規定的正當法律程序完成對一個人的防衛權利的抗辯之後，仍然由法官能夠來判處他應得的罪刑，這樣的行為應該被社會所接受，也應該依法執行。","quality":0.109},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:20:52.803000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:20:54.464000+08:00","text":"所以，您到底是贊成廢除死刑？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:20:55.505000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:20:56.065000+08:00","text":"還是反對廢除死刑？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:20:56.065000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:21:02.843250+08:00","text":"我剛才講過……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:21:02.843250+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:21:09.621500+08:00","text":"聽起來你是反對廢除死刑嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:21:09.621500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:21:16.399750+08:00","text":"是不是？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:21:16.399750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:21:23.178000+08:00","text":"對不起？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:21:23.178000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:21:24.738000+08:00","text":"您反對廢除死刑是不是？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:21:25.218000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:21:27.439000+08:00","text":"我覺得臺灣現在是有死刑存在的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:21:27.959000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:21:29.159000+08:00","text":"是，有死刑存在。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:21:29.159000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:21:30.159000+08:00","text":"我們是依法行政。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:21:29.259000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:21:30.740000+08:00","text":"但是重點是沒有執行啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:21:31.620000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:21:48.504000+08:00","text":"過去到現在，尤其民進黨政府上任之後，其實執行死刑的狀況非常的少，而現在做出這樣的一個有條件合憲之後的判決，讓外界質疑在臺灣殺人比死刑更容易，難道不諷刺嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:21:49.769000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:22:02.008000+08:00","text":"尤其大法官還做出了條件解釋，要一審、二審、三審法官都要一致判決，變成一票否定制，中華民國從上到下所有的制度裡面，有那麼嚴苛的制度嗎？","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:22:02.008000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:22:02.248000+08:00","text":"行政院長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:22:04.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:22:09.564000+08:00","text":"所以憲法法庭要行政院跟立法院合作，兩年內要修改相關的法律。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:22:09.644000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:22:12.145000+08:00","text":"他不是要我們行政、立法合作！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:22:12.786000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:22:15.287000+08:00","text":"現在看起來是司法院凌駕行政、立法耶！","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:22:16.248000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:22:25.093000+08:00","text":"司法院凌駕行政院，因為如果有任何法官要判處死刑的話，全部的法官都要同意啊！","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:22:26.134000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:22:26.874000+08:00","text":"法務部能夠接受嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:22:26.874000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:22:28.212000+08:00","text":"請部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:22:28.212000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:22:33.553000+08:00","text":"過去法務部，我們在釋憲法庭的時候所講出來認為死刑是合憲的，有條件嗎？","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-09-24T11:22:33.553000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:22:38.626000+08:00","text":"死刑的制度在我們……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:22:38.626000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:22:42.147000+08:00","text":"法務部的立場，死刑有條件嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-09-24T11:22:42.147000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:22:43.147000+08:00","text":"立場我們認為是合憲的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:22:42.147000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:22:44.108000+08:00","text":"判決死刑是有條件的嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-09-24T11:22:44.108000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:22:45.108000+08:00","text":"我們是尊重整個憲法法庭的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:22:44.108000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:22:49.489000+08:00","text":"我在問是法務部的立場，不是你尊重憲法法庭！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:22:49.990000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:22:51.570000+08:00","text":"法務部的立場是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:22:51.570000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:22:52.891000+08:00","text":"判決死刑有沒有條件？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:22:53.651000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:22:58.612000+08:00","text":"有沒有要一審、二審，三審法官都一定要一致的判決，才能夠判決死刑？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:23:00.093000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:23:00.293000+08:00","text":"有沒有？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-09-24T11:23:00.293000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:23:01.293000+08:00","text":"這部分法務部還是尊重……我們是依照憲法法庭……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:23:01.293000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:23:02.293000+08:00","text":"已經出來了，我現在在問的是法務部的意見有沒有……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-09-24T11:23:02.293000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:23:03.293000+08:00","text":"……憲判字已經判決出來……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:23:03.293000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:23:04.293000+08:00","text":"有沒有條件？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:23:04.293000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:23:05.293000+08:00","text":"沒有條件嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:23:01.154000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:23:06.478000+08:00","text":"那立法權，我們也講了，立法委員在過去所有世界民主國家裡面，死刑都是立法權來做決定、來訂立，可是今天是司法院凌駕行政跟立法院！","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:23:26.779000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:23:47.389000+08:00","text":"院長，我再請教，現在有37名死刑犯已經三審定讞，其中最長的死刑犯24年了，已經定讞24年，1999年判決死刑到現在24年還沒有執行，現在既然有條件合憲，該不該執行？","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:23:47.389000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:23:48.389000+08:00","text":"第一個，我覺得這兩天以來很多的討論，針對裡面……這37名當中，有幾位在程序上顯然不符合的，那個有一定的處理過程……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:23:48.389000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:23:49.389000+08:00","text":"我在問的是……","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:23:49.389000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:23:50.389000+08:00","text":"其他的部分，應該由檢察單位，就他們該不該執行程序來做瞭解。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-09-24T11:23:50.389000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:23:51.389000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，現在是由最高檢察署……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:23:49.523000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:23:49.803000+08:00","text":"法務部該不該執行？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-09-24T11:23:49.903000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:23:50.503000+08:00","text":"我們是依法處理。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:23:50.543000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:23:50.703000+08:00","text":"依法處理啊！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:23:50.983000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:23:51.703000+08:00","text":"我現在就是有條件合憲……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-09-24T11:23:51.703000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:23:52.864000+08:00","text":"……37位死刑犯……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:23:52.864000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:23:54.284000+08:00","text":"37位是不是都可以非常上訴？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-09-24T11:23:54.284000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:23:56.647200+08:00","text":"這部分的話……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:23:56.647200+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:23:59.010400+08:00","text":"是不是都可以非常上訴？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-09-24T11:23:59.010400+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:24:01.373600+08:00","text":"這不一定要非常上訴……這個現在由最高檢察署來審……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:24:01.373600+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:24:03.736800+08:00","text":"他們37位，是不是因為這一次的大法官解釋之後都可以非常上訴？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-09-24T11:24:03.736800+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:24:06.100000+08:00","text":"這個要再審……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:24:06.100000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:24:08.463200+08:00","text":"再審不就是非常上訴？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-09-24T11:24:08.463200+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:24:10.826400+08:00","text":"因為每個個案不同嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:24:10.826400+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:24:13.189600+08:00","text":"所以加害者能夠非常上訴，那被害者誰幫他們上訴？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:24:13.189600+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:24:15.552800+08:00","text":"被害者的家屬誰幫他們上訴？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:24:15.552800+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:24:17.916000+08:00","text":"這不就是我們政府應該的責任嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:24:17.916000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:25:08.731000+08:00","text":"所以院長，我再拉回來，我們這兩年、上一屆一直在討論所謂國民法官法、國民法官制度，但是今天大法官判決出來之後，憲法法庭要求一致性的判決，未來國民法官的案件，即便是六名國民法官都同意要判處死刑，但只要有一名職業法官反對，是不是就沒有辦法判處死刑？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:25:09.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:25:25.543000+08:00","text":"我們有發現到這樣的狀況，未來在執行上是否適當，所以就憲法法庭所說的，2年內要修改相關的條文，這當中是不是容許有更多的討論空間……","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:25:25.543000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:25:27.263000+08:00","text":"也會把它納進來修法嗎？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:25:27.263000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:25:29.483000+08:00","text":"我是說，是不是容許有更多討論空間……","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:25:29.483000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:25:30.784000+08:00","text":"行政部門會提出版本嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:25:30.784000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:25:35.745000+08:00","text":"而且能夠得到社會的認同，在行政、立法、司法之間也能取得平衡。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:25:36.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:25:36.825000+08:00","text":"院長，我現在就是在就教您，現在就是要跟您確認這個議題嘛！","quality":0.56},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:25:38.885000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:25:45.632000+08:00","text":"六名國民法官如果一致都判處死刑，但只要有一名職業法官不同意就沒有辦法判處死刑，那是不是就是一個漏洞？","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-09-24T11:25:45.632000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:25:46.632000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:25:46.212000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:25:50.056000+08:00","text":"是不是就是大法官解釋之後形成的後續漏洞？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:25:50.216000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:25:55.141000+08:00","text":"有可能變成殺人犯，或者是罪大惡刑者的犯罪空間、逃脫條款，是不是？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-09-24T11:25:59.136000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:26:00.537000+08:00","text":"這是法院指出應該處理的問題，因為這個……","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:26:00.537000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:26:04.238000+08:00","text":"所以行政院的態度是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-09-24T11:26:04.618000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:26:07.219000+08:00","text":"我們法務部會再配合修法，在修法之中會把我們的意見……","quality":0.391},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:26:07.599000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:26:07.799000+08:00","text":"會修法？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:26:08.119000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:26:10.879000+08:00","text":"所以會提出行政院的版本修法，是不是？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-09-24T11:26:10.879000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:26:11.879000+08:00","text":"我們行政部門會提意見……","quality":0.1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:26:11.780000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:26:15.601000+08:00","text":"我只確認，會提出行政院版本的修法，把這個漏洞給補齊，是這樣嗎？","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-09-24T11:26:19.110000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:26:22.536000+08:00","text":"這個法院組織法的主管機關是司法院……是啊！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-09-24T11:26:24.078000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:26:28.285000+08:00","text":"他們修法會跟行政院會銜，我們法務部會提出建議意見。","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:26:30.308000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:26:31.348000+08:00","text":"你的意見是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:26:31.348000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:26:32.868000+08:00","text":"要修正這個漏洞？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-09-24T11:26:32.868000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:26:33.868000+08:00","text":"這個一致性的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:26:33.749000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:26:34.709000+08:00","text":"要不要修正這個漏洞？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:26:34.829000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:26:38.950000+08:00","text":"我現在就問那麼簡單……院長，我還有很多問題，是不是請院長回答，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:26:39.710000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:26:42.070000+08:00","text":"院長，您的行政院版本會怎麼出來？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:26:42.070000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:26:42.930000+08:00","text":"會不會修正這個漏洞？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:26:43.730000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:26:57.393000+08:00","text":"剛剛部長說過，法院組織法的調整是司法院的職權，但我們認為可以討論的是，將來如何在執行上是可行的，這個可行也要符合社會大家共同的標準跟價值。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:26:57.393000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:27:08.568000+08:00","text":"這就是本席點出來的，大法官釋憲跟我們八成以上的民意背道而馳，這樣已經變成是實質廢死，臺灣現在真的沒有理由、沒有空間和條件廢死；本席希望未來有一天如果沒有這種重大惡行犯罪者，當我們社會天下太平，可以不要有死刑，但是重大惡行犯罪者還沒有防制之前，有死刑的嚇阻做最後一道防線，這是司法正義的最後一道防線。","quality":0.239},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:27:08.568000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:27:09.208000+08:00","text":"委員，我很負責任的跟委員說明……院長……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:27:09.308000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:27:09.769000+08:00","text":"憲法法庭所做的這個解釋不是廢死、並非廢死……","quality":0.632},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:27:09.769000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:27:21.876250+08:00","text":"但是它已經實質走向廢死的方向……","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:27:21.876250+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:27:33.983500+08:00","text":"沒有，它不是廢死，我們死刑是存在的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:27:33.983500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:27:46.090750+08:00","text":"院長，本席再跟您討論、就教下一個會期，部長可以先請回。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:27:46.090750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:27:58.198000+08:00","text":"本席一直強調這個會期的重點是人事跟總預算，您也提到以人為先、團結合作。是。","quality":0.242},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:27:58.198000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:28:05.868000+08:00","text":"好，團結合作、以人為先，我想我們都同意，但重點在於團結不是只有你的團結是團結，在野黨的團結也是團結……當然。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:28:06.128000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:28:10.965000+08:00","text":"全民的團結是團結，所以凝聚共識非常重要，我想請教……","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:28:10.965000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:28:12.686000+08:00","text":"整個國家的團結。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:28:12.686000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:28:14.966000+08:00","text":"當然，國家的團結、國家的方向一起走。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:28:15.667000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:28:29.911000+08:00","text":"我想請教，上禮拜五晚上，賴清德總統宴請民進黨籍的立委，並且經過轉述之後，賴總統說總預算被退回很罕見，所以民進黨團要求韓院長要進行朝野協商。","quality":0.937},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:28:30.811000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:28:48.491000+08:00","text":"本席也想請教，賴總統從當選總統到現在9個月的時間了，沒有跟在野黨包括國民黨團、民眾黨團有任何一個想要溝通的方向，或是想要溝通的表示，這是不是也很罕見？","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:28:49.612000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:29:11.177000+08:00","text":"一個民選的總統，過去陳水扁總統也跟在野黨領袖拜會過，過去馬英九總統也跟在野黨領袖座談過，蔡英文總統也跟在野黨領袖座談過，那我想請教，9個月過去了，一個40%的少數民選總統，到目前為止沒有打算要跟在野黨有任何的溝通，是不是也很罕見？","quality":0.99},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:29:12.751000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:29:18.516000+08:00","text":"總統尊重五院體制的憲法結構，他不會……","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:29:18.516000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:29:19.516000+08:00","text":"所以您說過去蔡英文不尊重囉？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:29:18.516000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:29:21.179000+08:00","text":"他不會輕易的啟動院際的協商，但是他跟……","quality":0.647},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:29:21.179000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:29:22.179000+08:00","text":"這不是院際協商啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:29:21.259000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:29:25.322000+08:00","text":"他跟五院院長在各種場合的碰面是都有的。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:29:25.643000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:29:26.484000+08:00","text":"這是朝野溝通。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:29:26.484000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:29:27.985000+08:00","text":"那如果……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:29:27.985000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:29:35.352000+08:00","text":"院長，我可以請教，您剛剛進來有接受媒體採訪，你也講說希望朝野進一步溝通……是。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:29:36.393000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:29:37.334000+08:00","text":"那這個責任在誰身上？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:29:39.080000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:29:41.321000+08:00","text":"我希望我跟韓院長也能夠溝通……是。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:29:41.681000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:29:43.282000+08:00","text":"朝野黨團也能夠繼續溝通……","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:29:44.083000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:29:46.124000+08:00","text":"還有包括行政部門跟立法部門溝通……","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:29:46.124000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:29:47.124000+08:00","text":"行政、立法兩院也能繼續溝通……","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:29:46.664000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:29:52.107000+08:00","text":"以及現在最重要是總統、執政團隊，執政黨跟在野黨的溝通不是嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:29:52.107000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:30:01.713000+08:00","text":"如果院跟院之間的溝通不良，或是有任何的重大事件發生，似乎總統是可以依照憲法啟動院際協商，但這個不輕易的啟動。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:30:02.573000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:30:05.454000+08:00","text":"如果不輕易啟動，那什麼時候、什麼情況下會啟動？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:30:05.454000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:30:07.615000+08:00","text":"總統自有判斷。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:30:07.615000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:30:21.162000+08:00","text":"黨團也認為，現在這樣一個總預算以及包括人事的部分，對於我們一而再、再而三的要求或是說民眾的一個呼籲，行政部門沒有聽到、充耳不聞，這樣子不算嚴重嗎？","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:30:21.162000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:30:22.583000+08:00","text":"我們完全有聽到，而且願意更誠懇地跟大家談。","quality":0.526},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:30:22.583000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:30:23.583000+08:00","text":"院長，您知不知道為什麼總統不願意跟在野黨有任何的溝通？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:30:23.583000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:30:24.583000+08:00","text":"總統沒有說不願意。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:30:24.583000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:30:25.583000+08:00","text":"可是都一直沒有做任何的行動啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:30:25.583000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:30:26.583000+08:00","text":"我說總統自有判斷。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:30:24.075000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:30:43.073000+08:00","text":"過去蔡英文總統、馬英九總統以及陳水扁總統都有這樣的動作，您自己的了解，總統不願意做這樣的動作的原因是什麼？","quality":0.735},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:30:43.073000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:30:46.415000+08:00","text":"總統沒有不願意，他自有判斷在什麼時機、用什麼方式。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:30:46.815000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:30:59.105000+08:00","text":"所以您覺得您也不願意跟總統建議，是不是應該也可以跟在野黨來互相的溝通，甚至是邀請在野黨來做所謂的國是會議，來做一個國是溝通？","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:30:59.385000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:31:01.106000+08:00","text":"我相信在野黨應該都很樂意。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:31:01.206000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:31:07.451000+08:00","text":"委員的這席話，總統一定聽得到，不用我建議，總統一定會聽到大院委員的建議，他都非常重視。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:31:07.451000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:31:11.574000+08:00","text":"好，所以您說總統現在也在看我們立院的直播就對了？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:31:11.694000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:31:13.215000+08:00","text":"現在沒看，但他也會看到報導。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:31:14.416000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:31:30.308000+08:00","text":"好，我想請教院長，之前我們行政院江宜樺前院長，他也在上任的時候表態要拜會在野黨的領袖，當時民進黨的主席是蘇貞昌，雖然到最後沒有促成，但是我也想請教您個人的意願是？","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:31:32.971000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:31:34.292000+08:00","text":"總統拜會在野黨領袖嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:31:34.292000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:31:35.052000+08:00","text":"不是，行政院啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:31:35.593000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:31:38.075000+08:00","text":"您現在是行政院長，除非你想要當總統……","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:31:38.075000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:31:39.075000+08:00","text":"不是，我……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:31:38.575000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:31:47.383000+08:00","text":"我現在講的是，行政院長表態要拜會在野黨領袖，您從520上任到現在也已經4個多月了，您自己有沒有這樣的打算？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:31:48.440000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:31:56.449000+08:00","text":"既然國民黨、在野黨跟執政黨好像現在溝通上是這樣，那您本身願不願意來拜會在野黨領袖？","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:31:56.890000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:32:03.718000+08:00","text":"我現在的工作還是比較適宜跟韓院長還有其他的院長來做溝通，那各黨……","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:32:03.718000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:32:06.260667+08:00","text":"所以您也不願意？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:32:06.260667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:32:08.803333+08:00","text":"不是，各黨有各黨的主席，由主席去做溝通，我覺得黨務的交流是比較順暢的，我很願意跟韓院長溝通，其實我們各種溝通都很多的。","quality":0.113},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:32:08.803333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:32:11.346000+08:00","text":"各種溝通很多？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:32:11.346000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:32:13.888667+08:00","text":"這個我不知道，因為現在韓院長沒有辦法發言，我也不想問。","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:32:13.888667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:32:16.431333+08:00","text":"他有微笑！","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:32:16.431333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:32:18.974000+08:00","text":"但是本席的重點在什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:32:18.974000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:32:21.516667+08:00","text":"就像您剛剛講的，臺灣、中華民國我們一起努力打拼啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:32:21.516667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:32:24.059333+08:00","text":"可是本席要講的是，執政者、擁有執政權力的人沒有多一點點善意，如果能夠多釋出一點橄欖枝，否則你要怎麼樣期待所謂的團結合作、以人為本？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:32:24.059333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:32:26.602000+08:00","text":"這是講真的還講假的？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:32:26.602000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:32:28.982000+08:00","text":"再來，總預算、人事的部分，我們先討論人事，大法官人事連綠營內部都已經有罵聲，黨籍立委哀號「歹處理」！","quality":0.476},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:32:56.162000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:32:59.205000+08:00","text":"有這種事情嗎？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:33:00.086000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:33:04.830000+08:00","text":"因為這個是總統府的作業，我也希望說……","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:33:04.830000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:33:30.088000+08:00","text":"我想請教，上禮拜五你們有一起座談，因為民進黨上任8年以來，找所謂的立委溝通，都是找民進黨籍的立委，從來沒找過在野黨籍立委，不過沒關係，我尊重你們的作法，但重點是黨籍立委連人事也有意見了，現在的人事你也不溝通，沒有跟你們自己內部的民進黨立委溝通，你也不找在野黨立委溝通，那你們到底要溝通什麼？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:33:30.088000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:33:35.051000+08:00","text":"你認為之後的人事案會很順利得通過嗎？","quality":0.118},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:33:35.051000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:33:39.252000+08:00","text":"不管是NCC、不管是考試委員、不管是大法官，你認為會很順利得通過嗎？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:33:39.412000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:33:54.090000+08:00","text":"總統府提名之後，自然會由總統府秘書長帶著這幾位被提名人到各黨團做正式的拜託，讓大家互相的認識，這個是絕對會做到的，我也希望大家能夠充分去了解他們個人的立場和過去的學經歷。","quality":0.575},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:33:55.671000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:34:12.417000+08:00","text":"院長，說實在話，要溝通就拿出誠意，不要什麼事情面對到在野黨合理監督的時候就推給韓院長，韓院長已經是我們看過最公道的公道伯了，但是不要每一次溝通不順的時候就是要韓院長來朝野協商。","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:34:13.457000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:34:19.878000+08:00","text":"因為如果要通過你們法案的時候，你們就是下達軍令狀，要求你們黨籍立委團進團出來投票。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:34:20.719000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:34:25.700000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我剛剛談話當中沒有這種意思，說韓院長溝通不良，沒有，我絕對沒有這種意思。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:34:27.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:34:34.342000+08:00","text":"院長，想請教人事的部分，內閣團隊有沒有溝通不良的狀況？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:34:34.342000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:34:36.452000+08:00","text":"就是內部有沒有橫向溝通不良的狀況？","quality":0.125},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:34:36.452000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:34:44.096000+08:00","text":"一開始我承認有，漸漸的到現在為止，互相都知道彼此工作的角色要怎麼扮演，而且有充分的合作……","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:34:44.636000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:34:48.858000+08:00","text":"所以已經從一開始上路卡卡的，到現在比較順暢了？","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:34:48.858000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:34:49.878000+08:00","text":"當然是比較順暢。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:34:50.479000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:34:53.620000+08:00","text":"好，邱泰源部長跟環境部部長是怎麼回事？","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:34:55.341000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:34:56.982000+08:00","text":"這問題剛剛上一位委員也有提到。","quality":0.643},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:34:57.102000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:35:03.485000+08:00","text":"我知道，但我現在只看到你們人前手牽手，背後怎麼樣……下一句我就不講了。沒有。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:35:03.485000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:35:04.485000+08:00","text":"請邱部長跟彭部長請上臺。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:35:04.485000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:35:05.485000+08:00","text":"這件事情凸顯三個狀況，第一，網內互打對卓賴體制其實是損傷，坐實總統把手伸進行政體系。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:35:05.485000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:35:06.485000+08:00","text":"第二，卓院長是不是無視被架空、沒有領導統御？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:35:06.485000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:35:07.485000+08:00","text":"第三，會不會所有內閣團隊以後都有樣學樣，就直接跟總統報告就好了？","quality":0.276},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:35:07.161000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:35:35.840000+08:00","text":"邱部長，總統罵彭部長是你自己聽到的？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:35:36.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:35:36.961000+08:00","text":"總統告訴你？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:35:37.381000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:35:38.382000+08:00","text":"還是別人轉述跟你說？沒有。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-09-24T11:35:39.043000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:35:43.587000+08:00","text":"我跟彭部長是多年好友，我們一直在討論醫療院所怎麼節能減碳……","quality":0.741},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:35:43.727000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:35:45.028000+08:00","text":"我是說總統罵……","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-09-24T11:35:45.028000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:35:48.691000+08:00","text":"在討論當中，這個我完全沒有跟總統有互動過。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:35:48.691000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:35:50.633000+08:00","text":"你沒有跟總統互動過？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:35:50.633000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:35:52.174000+08:00","text":"所以是彭部長告訴你說總統罵他？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-09-24T11:35:52.174000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:35:53.174000+08:00","text":"不是罵，他是說……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:35:53.174000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:35:54.174000+08:00","text":"所以是彭部長告訴你，總統打給他？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-09-24T11:35:54.174000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:35:55.174000+08:00","text":"對醫療院所節能減碳的活動非常肯定……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:35:55.174000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:35:56.174000+08:00","text":"邱部長，聽本席的問題！","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:35:56.174000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:35:57.174000+08:00","text":"本席是問，你說總統打給彭部長這件事，是彭部長告訴你總統打給他？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-09-24T11:35:57.174000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:35:58.174000+08:00","text":"是彭部長告訴我的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:35:53.475000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:35:55.756000+08:00","text":"彭部長，接到總統的電話，有沒有第一時間跟卓院長報告？","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-09-24T11:36:17.908000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:36:25.810000+08:00","text":"有，其實我跟總統、跟卓院長，都常常在討論淨零減碳的事情，所以對於醫院部分，其實院長也很……","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:36:25.870000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:36:31.232000+08:00","text":"所以總統確實不只一次打給你，要求你做與淨零減碳相關的政策？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-09-24T11:36:31.932000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:36:33.073000+08:00","text":"沒有，其實我們……","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:36:33.393000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:36:35.713000+08:00","text":"你剛剛說不時打電話，現在又說沒有？不是。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-09-24T11:36:38.054000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:36:43.176000+08:00","text":"總統府有國家氣候變遷對策委員會，行政院會會先報告完，然後到國家氣候變遷委員會討論，所以討論的議題在這裡面。","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:36:43.176000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:36:49.906000+08:00","text":"是啊，但打電話啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:36:49.906000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:36:56.636000+08:00","text":"剛剛邱部長證實你告訴他總統打電話給你，不管是罵或說。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:36:56.636000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:37:03.366000+08:00","text":"中華民國憲政體制再怎麼樣，現在最高行政首長是誰？院長。","quality":0.125},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:37:03.366000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:37:04.906000+08:00","text":"行政院院長？對。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:37:04.906000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:37:11.688000+08:00","text":"說實在，你們的老闆、你們的領導人是行政院院長；你們的任命權，也是行政院院長任命的。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:37:12.448000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:37:24.922000+08:00","text":"一樣，今天總統貴為我們中華民國的元首，他可以私下打電話給你，跟你講政策，還要你補貼相關的醫療院所，這是不是已經介入行政體制？","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-09-24T11:37:25.062000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:37:26.503000+08:00","text":"報告委員……","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:37:26.503000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:37:27.964000+08:00","text":"我現在在請教彭部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-09-24T11:37:27.964000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:37:33.587000+08:00","text":"報告委員，其實我每天都接到工總、商總各式各樣對淨零減碳的關心，包含……","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:37:34.208000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:37:35.789000+08:00","text":"那是關心，你不一定做。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:37:36.529000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:37:38.170000+08:00","text":"但今天是總統打電話來！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:37:39.311000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:37:40.351000+08:00","text":"總統打電話來，你可以不做嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:37:42.173000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:37:46.976000+08:00","text":"我剛剛請教，你第一時間接到總統電話後，有沒有跟卓院長報告？","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:37:47.596000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:37:50.018000+08:00","text":"還是總統跟卓院長說了，卓院長指示你？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:37:50.999000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:37:52.760000+08:00","text":"這是體制的問題，你懂我意思嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-09-24T11:37:53.120000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:37:56.182000+08:00","text":"體制上我們跟院長都是在一起的，我們每個禮拜……","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:37:56.542000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:38:02.667000+08:00","text":"沒有在一起，因為卓院長剛剛已經承認了，說這件事他看了新聞才知道。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:38:04.192000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:38:05.974000+08:00","text":"換言之，你沒有主動跟卓院長報告……","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:38:06.294000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:38:10.158000+08:00","text":"所謂看了新聞才知道是說，邱部長講的那句話我看了新聞才知道。對啊！","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:38:11.099000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:38:14.442000+08:00","text":"他講的那句話我看了新聞才知道。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:38:14.582000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:38:15.423000+08:00","text":"他講總統罵彭部長？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:38:15.423000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:38:17.125000+08:00","text":"對，他講的這句話我看了新聞才知道。","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:38:17.305000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:38:17.725000+08:00","text":"報告委員……","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:38:18.346000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:38:19.167000+08:00","text":"其實這件事情……","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:38:19.988000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:38:20.748000+08:00","text":"我講兩句話就好了……","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:38:20.989000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:38:22.030000+08:00","text":"院長，我一個結論。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:38:22.370000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:38:27.855000+08:00","text":"說實在話，這件事其實是你們幾個部會首長自己私下的溝通，但我要凸顯的重點是什麼？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:38:28.616000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:38:32.159000+08:00","text":"第一，中華民國憲政體制；第二，責任政治。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:38:32.739000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:38:40.286000+08:00","text":"如果總統今天可以直接跟部長溝通的話，那我們邀請總統來做國情報告何錯之有？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:38:40.286000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:38:41.286000+08:00","text":"我們認為現在的雙首長制讓行政院長相對來說，就像總統的幕僚長或秘書長，而總統有實際的權力去指揮各部會首長，也因此我們才會說，希望總統能夠來做責任政治的報告……","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:38:41.286000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:38:42.286000+08:00","text":"兩句話跟委員報告……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:38:42.286000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:38:43.286000+08:00","text":"我們現在講……","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:38:43.286000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:38:44.286000+08:00","text":"部長也好，我也好，跟總統都會有公開或是固定在私底下見面的時間，都會有……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:38:41.065000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:38:41.225000+08:00","text":"沒錯嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:39:05.254000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:39:07.256000+08:00","text":"我現在講的就是打電話……","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:39:07.736000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:39:09.097000+08:00","text":"我會跟總統談說……","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:39:09.097000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:39:09.398000+08:00","text":"這不嚴重……","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:39:09.798000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:39:10.819000+08:00","text":"我跟總統會談說……","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:39:10.819000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:39:12.941000+08:00","text":"院長，你要這樣唾面自乾我也沒有辦法。","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:39:13.921000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:39:18.345000+08:00","text":"重點在於，如果今天你跟總統不同調的話……同調。","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:39:18.926000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:39:20.687000+08:00","text":"總統是跳過你直接指揮……","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:39:20.687000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:39:36.340000+08:00","text":"我的第二句話是，我跟部長的重要政策，在我跟總統的見面當中都會跟總統談，所以總統完全知道每個部會首長重要政策在推動的時程跟進度，他關心的是這個事情。院長……","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-09-24T11:39:36.340000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:39:37.340000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我可不可以……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:39:36.961000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:39:40.423000+08:00","text":"邱部長不要再打斷我的話，我現在請教院長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:39:40.423000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:39:43.065000+08:00","text":"院長，這件事情凸顯什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:39:43.065000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:39:46.087000+08:00","text":"第一，碳費基金要不要趕快訂立？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:39:47.008000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:39:52.912000+08:00","text":"碳費本來應該是今年上半年度就出來，但是到目前為止還沒有出來。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:39:52.912000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:39:53.912000+08:00","text":"環境部已經決定了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:39:52.912000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:39:56.635000+08:00","text":"第二，基金的運用有沒有規則可循？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:39:57.515000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:40:01.918000+08:00","text":"絕對有啊，否則的話，今天各部會私下打電話，我要五毛、我要一塊，部長這邊就可以來做這個小金庫，這樣完全不對。","quality":0.37},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:40:01.918000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:40:03.002000+08:00","text":"沒有這種事情。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:40:03.002000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:40:04.663000+08:00","text":"所以是不是應該要法制化作業？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:40:04.663000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:40:06.426800+08:00","text":"碳費的決定怎麼實施，環境部已經完整，相關的三個子法也出來了……","quality":0},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-09-24T11:40:06.426800+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:40:08.190600+08:00","text":"對，三個子法已經在8月底公布了，一般費率300到500塊已經定了，現在就是優惠費率……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:40:08.190600+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:40:09.954400+08:00","text":"還沒有最後的確認嘛，所以我剛剛上來質詢之前才要確認的是，其實最後一次你們才把所謂的碳費確認出來嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:40:09.954400+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:40:11.718200+08:00","text":"已經確認了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:40:11.718200+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:40:13.482000+08:00","text":"院長，拉回來總預算的部分，兩位部長請回。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:40:13.482000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:41:02.200000+08:00","text":"有關總預算的部分，我們看最先進民主國家美國，美國從1974年到2023年，全國家的總預算真正能夠在預設時間內通過的，在49年的這49次裡面有幾次，院長知道嗎？","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:41:04.623000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:41:05.043000+08:00","text":"只有4次，美國……","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:41:05.043000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:41:11.950500+08:00","text":"我認為能夠在法定時間通過對每個國家、每個人民都好。","quality":0.043},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:41:11.950500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:41:18.858000+08:00","text":"美國這個成熟民主國家在總預算預設時間內通過4次，在49次裡面只有4次。","quality":0.241},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:41:18.858000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:41:45.866000+08:00","text":"立法院在上禮拜五確實我們做出了一個決議，是大家投票通過退回行政院所提出的總預算，這是明年度的，最主要有幾個原因，第一，2016年馬政府最後一年的時候，全國總預算是一兆九千多億，但是過去民進黨8年執政之後，尤其賴清德總統的第一年預算居然高達史上破天荒的3兆，這是創歷史新高。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:41:47.860000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:41:54.024000+08:00","text":"第二，我們也認為裡面有一些預算應編列沒編列、該編列沒編列，是不是應該要做調整？","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:41:54.765000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:42:07.294000+08:00","text":"第三，有一些預算明顯有浮編或浮報的狀況，包括宣傳費用大漲的部分，我們也請行政部門的算盤是不是能夠再做個檢討或討論？","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:42:07.294000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:42:08.875000+08:00","text":"其實站的角度是什麼？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:42:09.555000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:42:14.979000+08:00","text":"就是為人民把關嘛，我的原則很簡單，預算當用則用、當省則省。沒錯。","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:42:14.979000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:42:21.664000+08:00","text":"你可以問一下每個部會，如果說有來我辦公室的，只要他們來，我說為中華民國做事、為臺灣2,350萬人做事，我對預算絕對不會刁難。","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:42:24.586000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:42:32.832000+08:00","text":"但是如果說沒有，而是用政治意識形態或是讓我覺得你們有浮編、濫編的狀況，很抱歉，我們不會手軟。","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:42:33.293000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:42:49.545000+08:00","text":"現在退回預算，其實只要行政部門馬上調整，再送進來，我們來做檢視，都可以進入到立法院再做實質的討論，因為進入到委員會後，立法委員只能刪減預算、凍結預算，不能增加預算，這點院長你也很清楚吧？","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:42:49.545000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:42:50.625000+08:00","text":"是，行政院編列預算就是法定的權限。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:42:50.625000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:42:59.128000+08:00","text":"是啊，所以我們現在退回總預算，我現在要請教，在我們退回總預算之後，行政部門有沒有打算調整預算？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:42:59.869000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:43:02.850000+08:00","text":"我們希望盡力的透過朝野黨團繼續協商。","quality":0.706},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:43:02.850000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:43:03.450000+08:00","text":"有沒有打算？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:43:04.110000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:43:06.871000+08:00","text":"我們希望儘快的付委，委員剛剛所說的那幾項都正確……","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:43:06.871000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:43:07.871000+08:00","text":"所以你沒有打算要做任何的調整？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:43:06.871000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:43:07.151000+08:00","text":"你剛剛說的那幾項都正確……","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:43:07.151000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:43:08.151000+08:00","text":"院長，我可不可以直接確認一下……","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:43:07.151000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:43:08.052000+08:00","text":"都可以在實質審查裡面呈現出來。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:43:08.052000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:43:48.403000+08:00","text":"院長，我只要確認一件事情，院長，我確認一件事情，行政院這一次編列史上最高3兆元預算，我們現在退回，我們也說只要行政部門趕快重新審議編列都可以再送進來，而且更重要的是預算法第五十四條有規定，一般性費用、人事費用、補償費用、補貼費用、一般性例行計畫是不受預算審查的限制，換言之，即便我們到12月底以前沒有通過明年的總預算，但是明年1月一樣該發的薪水會發，該補貼的計畫會補貼，例行計畫也會照走，是不是？","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:43:48.403000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:43:49.752400+08:00","text":"行政院……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:43:49.752400+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:43:51.101800+08:00","text":"所以沒有影響到我們一般的，包括育兒津貼、衛福支出、社福支出等都沒有影響，人事費用也沒有影響。","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:43:51.101800+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:43:52.451200+08:00","text":"行政院知道這個規定。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:43:52.451200+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:43:53.800600+08:00","text":"我們現在要問的是，請聽清楚我的問題，我們退回預算，行政部門有沒有打算做任何的調整？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:43:53.800600+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:43:55.150000+08:00","text":"還是沒有，就是這樣鐵板一塊？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:43:55.150000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:44:24.777000+08:00","text":"委員，行政院知道一般的預算我們可以執行，但是我們不會因此而怠惰跟立法院的溝通。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:44:24.777000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:44:25.777000+08:00","text":"是，那我現在講……","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:44:25.298000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:44:36.744000+08:00","text":"第二點，很多的新增預算代表了我們下一個年度政府的政策，新增預算無法執行，政府大開腳步向前走的速度就會慢。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:44:37.324000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:44:42.287000+08:00","text":"院長，讓我再提醒一下，以人為本、團結合作，但你的團結就變成是我說的才算啊！","quality":0.688},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:44:42.287000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:44:43.287000+08:00","text":"沒有，在國家的團結底下……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:44:42.447000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:44:51.271000+08:00","text":"我們現在認為預算應該要重新調整，但你們不要調整，就是不要調整，3兆那麼多，但你們不要調整，這就是行政院的態度……","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:44:51.431000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:44:53.812000+08:00","text":"剛剛委員所說的，在實質審查時都可以達到這樣的功能。","quality":0.652},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:44:54.292000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:44:56.073000+08:00","text":"我只請教一件事，是不是就是您的態度？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:44:56.353000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:44:56.713000+08:00","text":"不會調整？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:44:58.014000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:44:58.734000+08:00","text":"有沒有調整的空間啦？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:44:58.874000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:45:03.476000+08:00","text":"我們希望繼續溝通，希望能夠儘速付委，之後大院就實質審查、詳細審查，我們誠意的溝通跟說明。","quality":0.795},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:45:07.553000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:45:19.421000+08:00","text":"韓院長，卓院長丟一個難題給你，他完全不退讓，完全鐵板一塊，但是就要求立法院長做朝野協商，這就是現在民進黨政府執政下的嘴臉！","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:45:19.421000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:45:21.442000+08:00","text":"我是維護行政院預算的完整性，預算權的完整性。","quality":0.05},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:45:21.442000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:45:46.753000+08:00","text":"我還要請教的是宣傳費大增，尤其去年宣傳費用九億二百多萬，我認為這其實已經比馬政府時代又多編了很多，我一直強調，我相信卓院長應該也認同，做的好，大家會幫你做宣傳，不用你自己自誇自擂自吹，但如果做不好，只想要粉飾太平的話，民眾沒有辦法接受。","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:45:47.713000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:45:58.980000+08:00","text":"今年全中央部會的宣傳預算高達十四億九千多萬，將近15億，暴增了5億9,000萬，我想請教，宣傳費用多了五億多，將近6億，有這個需要嗎？","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:46:01.859000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:46:05.283000+08:00","text":"報告委員，去年的九億多是去年審查之後，打折之後的預算。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:46:06.024000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:46:17.539000+08:00","text":"買廣告、做電視、網路，我甚至沒有講網軍喔，但我想說電視等相關部分，即便你有講到只增加了三億多，三億多不是錢嗎？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:46:19.067000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:46:24.949000+08:00","text":"三億多可以有多少營養午餐，三億多能夠有多少的學童補助，這難道不是費用嗎？光是……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:46:24.949000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:46:25.649000+08:00","text":"為什麼要增加這麼多？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:46:26.209000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:46:31.811000+08:00","text":"在三億多裡面，內政部因為打詐相關所編列的就有2.3億。","quality":0.739},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:46:31.811000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:46:32.811000+08:00","text":"打詐，漂亮，非常好！","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:46:31.811000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:46:40.133000+08:00","text":"院長，你講到打詐我就來討論打詐，昨天的新聞，101的董座講了什麼？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:46:40.433000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:46:43.054000+08:00","text":"她撂狠話說：「有種不要下架」，她要下架什麼？","quality":0.706},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:46:45.475000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:46:49.979000+08:00","text":"她要下架詐騙集團假冒她的名字的網路廣告。","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:46:50.539000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:47:03.268000+08:00","text":"我們看下一張，我們打詐三法、打詐五法通過了，昨天賈永婕還在個人臉書上又貼說現在有詐騙集團冒她的名在做詐騙廣告。","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:47:03.328000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:47:14.086000+08:00","text":"我說實在話，我們編列5億、10億的預算去宣傳打詐，抵不上一個賈永婕在臉書上發一篇她又被詐騙的文，為什麼？","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:47:14.086000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:47:15.086000+08:00","text":"因為這代表的是國人一而再、再而三……","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:47:15.086000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:47:16.086000+08:00","text":"所以這個打詐我們會有處理……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:47:16.086000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:47:17.086000+08:00","text":"你要執法權力，我們給你執法權力，你要執法空間，我們給你執法空間，但是到目前為止，這樣的詐騙廣告還是層出不窮啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:47:17.086000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:47:18.086000+08:00","text":"所以每次出來我們都會……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:47:15.736000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:47:17.878000+08:00","text":"你還好意思講說打詐的宣傳要增加，從原本的一千四百多萬變成2億3,000萬，增加將近20倍！","quality":0.657},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:47:17.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:47:21.283000+08:00","text":"你1年的打詐預算比過去8年蔡英文執政的預算還要多，你知道嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:47:21.283000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:47:24.688000+08:00","text":"我請內政部長來說明我們增加的內容。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:47:24.688000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:47:28.093000+08:00","text":"院長，你知道你1年的打詐預算比過去蔡英文執政8年的打詐預算還要多，你知道嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:47:28.093000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:47:31.498000+08:00","text":"因為大家都希望能夠遏止詐騙這個歪風，我們也全力在進行……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:47:31.498000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:47:34.903000+08:00","text":"所以蔡英文政府的時候不希望嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:47:34.903000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:47:38.308000+08:00","text":"我們全力在進行。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:47:38.308000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:48:08.250000+08:00","text":"來，院長，我再來跟你討論本席的選區──淡水、林口在端午中秋節都有發生大陸人士突破海防的狀況，海委會說要6,000名的海巡志工，海巡署又說沒有規劃，請問院長知道這個事情嗎？","quality":0.338},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-09-24T11:48:21.856000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:48:27.381000+08:00","text":"這個牽扯到治安，甚至是國安問題，我覺得這個要整體規劃，整體規劃才能產生出一個聯合防衛的效果。","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:48:27.381000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:48:31.424000+08:00","text":"是啊，所以一個是主委說要6,000名志工，但海巡署馬上出來說沒有規劃。","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"管主任委員碧玲","start":"2024-09-24T11:48:31.424000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:48:37.609000+08:00","text":"報告委員，沒有喔，完全沒有6,000名海巡志工這件事，我們也不了解這個新聞怎麼來的。沒有？","quality":0.861},{"speaker":"管主任委員碧玲","start":"2024-09-24T11:48:37.609000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:48:38.609000+08:00","text":"對，完全不了解……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:48:37.849000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:48:39.731000+08:00","text":"所以管碧玲主委表示編列6,000名海巡志工……","quality":0.529},{"speaker":"管主任委員碧玲","start":"2024-09-24T11:48:40.391000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:48:41.913000+08:00","text":"沒有，完全沒有，完全沒有！","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:48:42.833000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:48:44.034000+08:00","text":"所以這個新聞是假新聞囉？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"管主任委員碧玲","start":"2024-09-24T11:48:44.034000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:48:47.637000+08:00","text":"不知道，連署長都不知道，沒有任何人知道這個新聞怎麼來的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:48:47.637000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:48:48.637000+08:00","text":"這個新聞是假新聞？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:48:47.958000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:48:48.938000+08:00","text":"要不要跟這個媒體提告？","quality":1},{"speaker":"管主任委員碧玲","start":"2024-09-24T11:48:49.939000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:48:55.462000+08:00","text":"我們沒有提告，但是我們有澄清，對於6,000名海巡志工這件事情完全沒有人聽說過……好。","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:48:55.462000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:48:58.603000+08:00","text":"院長，我只請教，因為我們發生事情之後……","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"管主任委員碧玲","start":"2024-09-24T11:48:58.603000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:48:59.603000+08:00","text":"我們的海巡志工是救生救難，我們有3個海巡志工隊都是為了救生救難。","quality":0.034},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:48:58.963000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:49:09.729000+08:00","text":"我還是強調，我們共同防護海巡，我們共同支持海巡，今年海巡有編列了1億的紅外線相關建置計畫……","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"管主任委員碧玲","start":"2024-09-24T11:49:09.729000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:49:11.069000+08:00","text":"太少了，1億太少了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:49:11.249000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:49:15.071000+08:00","text":"是，但是至少我們在所謂的紅色海灘裡面要建置吧？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:49:15.692000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:49:17.813000+08:00","text":"到目前為止，18處的紅色海灘你們建置了幾處？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"管主任委員碧玲","start":"2024-09-24T11:49:17.813000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:49:18.813000+08:00","text":"報告委員，這個部分能不能容許我們不公開說明我們建置在什麼地點？","quality":0},{"speaker":"管主任委員碧玲","start":"2024-09-24T11:49:18.813000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:49:19.813000+08:00","text":"因為我想還是某種程度會牽涉機敏。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:49:18.733000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:49:23.495000+08:00","text":"但是至少本席講到的，本席的淡水以及林口這兩個紅色海灘，也是我們之前國防部所規劃的，都沒有建置啊！","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:49:23.495000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:49:29.082714+08:00","text":"所以你才沒有辦法掌握有遊艇、小艇進來到我們河口的狀況，不是嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:49:29.082714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:49:34.670429+08:00","text":"這就是現在的問題嘛。","quality":0},{"speaker":"管主任委員碧玲","start":"2024-09-24T11:49:34.670429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:49:40.258143+08:00","text":"對，所以我們……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:49:40.258143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:49:45.845857+08:00","text":"你今年已經有編列1億的預算，但是你到目前為止，連最重要的18處的紅色海灘都沒有建置，那你怎麼有辦法說服國人說，我們有保衛國家的決心？","quality":0},{"speaker":"管主任委員碧玲","start":"2024-09-24T11:49:45.845857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:49:51.433571+08:00","text":"1億沒有辦法……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-24T11:49:51.433571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:49:57.021286+08:00","text":"這才是真真正正的重點。","quality":0},{"speaker":"管主任委員碧玲","start":"2024-09-24T11:49:57.021286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:50:02.609000+08:00","text":"1億沒有辦法包括所有的紅色海灘，所以我們的計畫是很龐大的，要……好。謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-09-24T11:50:02.609000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-24T11:50:03.790000+08:00","text":"謝謝洪孟楷委員的質詢，也謝謝卓院長的備詢。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-09-24T11:50:04.290000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:50:13.718571+08:00","text":"報告院會，上午的質詢到此為止，下午兩點三十分繼續開會，進行施政報告之質詢。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-09-24T11:50:14.018571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:50:16.304286+08:00","text":"現在休息，謝謝大家。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-09-24T11:50:16.604286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-24T11:50:17.747143+08:00","text":"休息（11時50分）","quality":0}]},"會議時間":"2024-09-24T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:18:49 - 11:50:09","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第1次會議（事由：行政院院長施政報告並備質詢）"},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}