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報告委員當然各部分都在進步當中啦好 但是自駕的部分您上面寫的自駕的部分那個是part 2啦先回答part 1的問題啦IPS計畫投入了72億目前的成效是什麼具體的成效講3點來聽就好了啦講智慧講創新我們大家都同意嘛那72億丟下去具體的成效不用太多"},{"start":121.967,"end":148.273,"text":"隨便講舉相數來聽就好了各位很棒就是針對這個ICS的一個這個計畫的部分的話到目前就所了解的部分第一個部分就是在就是有些特定場域包括這個淡海市政區那個淡海新市政那邊有一些這個交控的這個試驗的一個場域那另外另外一個部分的話就是有關於這個就是自駕這個無人煞車的部分跟這個經營部"},{"start":150.474,"end":175.191,"text":"跟經貨經濟部這個核准的16個一個試驗計畫那交通部這邊也有這個參與這個補助那第三個部分的話大概就是說我先停一下啦齁講到這裡啊我不知道你自己會不會覺得心虛啊丟了72億下去喔我開放式的問題啊讓你可以自己Promote講得這麼虛無你剛剛提到滯降"},{"start":176.624,"end":205.524,"text":"自駕巴士國家隊的口號什麼時候打出來的什麼時候打出來這個口號部長知不知道委員請指教你什麼都要我指教奇怪是你是部長還是我是部長我問你ITS你也要我指教自駕巴士國家隊你也要我指教這個都是民脂民膏欸人民砸下去的錢欸交通部有這麼多的建設不可能每一個時間點我在這邊背給您聽"},{"start":206.857,"end":221.26,"text":"我沒有!要你背給我聽喔!你連資本上面的ITS是什麼都搞不清楚耶!沒有關係啦!我換一個比較簡單的題目啦!自家巴士國家隊目前進度如何?"},{"start":224.733,"end":251.684,"text":"市長可以幫忙回答嗎跟委員報告一下這個自駕巴士的部分的話第一道程序就是要經這個經濟部核准在這個沙盒實驗裡面去做這個實驗那所以現在多少業者走出了沙盒跟這個委員報告據我所了解的一個這個部分總共有16個計畫案那其中有10個是有關於這個大客車的部分那目前只剩下這一個兩岸一個是這一個台積電"},{"start":252.384,"end":263.353,"text":"所以有多少業者走出了沙盒?跟我報告就是說大概剩兩個案子其他的都已經目前都離開這個沙盒是結束還是離開沙盒?是計畫這個就是在沙盒計畫已經這一個結束"},{"start":269.258,"end":296.108,"text":"那結束了以後然後呢那結束了這部分我跟各位報告據我所瞭解因為參與這個就是沙盒計畫裡面有系統業者有車輛業者的部分那這個相關系統業者開發的部分就是包括這些ADAS先進的一個這個部分的話他們也要轉向到這個做單品的一個這個這個產品那另外一個部分就是系統面的這東西他們也在跟車"},{"start":296.828,"end":322.238,"text":"沒關係啊,我再具體的問齁,你們目前估計大概還要多久可以上路?跟我們報告,如果說這個是自駕這個巴士的這個部分的話以目前國際上成熟的商品大概是到這一個,到這個Level 3但是Level 3的部分的話,駕駛員都還要在這個上面所以你們估計大概還要多久?"},{"start":323.339,"end":348.873,"text":"我們這個估計我們在今年年底我們就會有一個自駕巴士的這個操作指引出來那如果說這個所謂的自駕巴士要真正能夠這個商用上路的部分可能比較可行是在早期可能是公車專用到這個線型比較大所以還要多久我個人的看法可能這個3到5年的一個時間3到5年OK好來我們桃機三航廈"},{"start":350.639,"end":370.841,"text":"運輸系統十七億的標案裡面其中一個非常重要的就是T2到T3嘛T2到T3啊 旅客的運輸服務啊我們現在安排的比較特殊啊我們要用自駕車嘛我講的應該沒有錯吧 部長是 沒錯到現在可以follow上齁是 好 可以齁 好"},{"start":372.005,"end":379.804,"text":"那T2到T3要搞自駕巴士的系統那我看了就覺得這個非常的ambitious非常好"},{"start":381.071,"end":402.837,"text":"其他的先進的國家開始大家慢慢上路了台灣搞了八年到現在講原地踏步可能太沉重了但沒有任何一個業者出沙盒真的可以商轉也是事實嘛我看到這個標案我就很好奇當初怎麼評選出來的所以我就仔細的去拜讀這個招標的服務建議書"},{"start":405.558,"end":426.123,"text":"結果裡面看到了負責自駕控制的是一個系統啊叫做李立系統股份有限公司啊這家公司部長有沒有聽過有聽過有聽過嘛委員過去有質詢過是是是我質詢過很多次啦但我覺得非常的奇怪我覺得非常的奇怪這家公司不曉得是有什麼通天的本領啊"},{"start":427.287,"end":448.63,"text":"在台灣的自駕車市場非常的活躍這個標案又給他拿到了那標案給他拿到沒關係嘛我們交通看的是專業看的是能力絕對不是在搞政商關係搞政商背景給能力有能力有專業的人拿到標案天經地義天工地道"},{"start":449.511,"end":472.839,"text":"但問題是是這樣嗎?然後我就看了一下他當初投標愜意服務處的時機啊2018年台中智慧城自駕車試行計畫也是履歷得標啊!市長!不好意思喔!部長!那個時候你應該還是台中市議員嘛!那個時候你應該在台中市議院很認真的監督林佳龍部長在搞這個事嘛!"},{"start":475.558,"end":483.043,"text":"來 我跟你報告一下沒有關係啦 因為到部長的高度我問部長成績的問題不會問市議員議員成績的問題啦禮麗 台中自駕公車系統7000萬打水漂 一事無成台南的 又給他7300萬 還是一事無成我們台鐵 由來的系統不好好用"},{"start":505.125,"end":518.597,"text":"丟了5640萬給他供搞列控4.0結果運安會上個會期跟我說這個系統根本不能用從台中到台南然後到台鐵全部都是被害人結果"},{"start":519.398,"end":535.13,"text":"我們淘機這麼重要T2到T3的標案又給他得標了說明一下現在這個標案又給李立自駕系統得標目前的狀態是什麼報告委員我這邊的訊息不知道對不對目前得標的廠商是晨運汽車是"},{"start":536.371,"end":552.813,"text":"沒有錯我剛架構圖我不是都畫給你看了嗎主承包商是承運嘛去做presentation的時候除了承運以外另外一個重要的人就是履歷的系統嘛因為那自駕車的系統是履歷在搞的嘛對嘛所以我現在問你狀態如何"},{"start":555.596,"end":577.252,"text":"這個標案錢給他了嘛你要推動進度如何大家都很關心嘛目前在細部設計當中啦目前在細部設計當中您對履歷的系統有什麼樣子的疑慮其實您可以提供給我們我現在直接請教啊現在主承包商承運啊是不是有跟淘機申請啊說這個履歷很爛啊根本不能用啊要換有還是沒有"},{"start":580.935,"end":599.163,"text":"我們有得到這樣的訊息不過我們已經有跟主承包商特別交代我們必須要按照合約的規範因為他們是單獨承攬所以他必須要提出包括他的必要性換承包商的那個承包商提的計畫沒有還沒有還沒有正式提嘛還沒有"},{"start":600.063,"end":622.898,"text":"我今天要請教部長的也要拜託部長注意我知道你剛上任所以有一些資訊今天其實是利用質詢的時間提供給部長請部長跟我們淘機的董事長大家好好合作因為我想淘機T3的進度延緩這件事情全國國人都很關心我相信院長也很關心我先預告這是我下一次質詢的主題但就T2到T3的運輸"},{"start":630.403,"end":650.416,"text":"當初做了標案也做了評選結果搞了一個惡名昭彰的履歷讓他拿到標案結果搞了幾年啊說他能力不足啊是在靠政商關係拿標案啊對他的批評啊完全沒錯因為現在連主承包商承運都受不了了"},{"start":651.444,"end":666.321,"text":"爛的不得了啊他們自己都受不了啊要換飆商啊那我的問題就來了當初這個評選到底是怎麼做的部長可以去了解一下嗎好沒有問題委員交代去了解我就去了解需要多教"},{"start":668.48,"end":688.951,"text":"應該一兩個月內就可以了解清楚不用這麼久吧部長一個月好不好好沒問題一個月內我要的是一個清楚的檢討我們當初喔T2到T3這些旅客的運輸何其重要大剌剌的辦了招商還評選結果選到一個能力最差最爛還有詐騙紀錄的廠商"},{"start":692.573,"end":708.84,"text":"這還不是我們嘴巴講他如果後來做得很成功我們大家還是給他鼓鼓掌嘛但現在連跟他一起合作的主承包商都受不了啊要求要換廠商那問題就大了因為我相信陶基的董事長現在也很痛苦啦"},{"start":709.58,"end":738.416,"text":"按照本來超標的規範就已經得標了嘛得標到一半你突然要換廠商你也會擔心說欸那這樣會不會有公平性的問題當初是他來評分嘛啊我給他了現在你又要換那當初其他參與競爭的廠商會不會覺得說啊這個是有案盤還是在怎麼搞還得標了以後評選了以後還可以隨便換廠商所以我相信剛剛董事長楊董事長您在講的在等他的申請主要是這回事嘛"},{"start":739.022,"end":763.8,"text":"但我希望我們處理問題就是面對問題要解決問題就要先面對問題嘛當初到底怎麼評選的怎麼會給時機這麼爛他提給你們淘氣的時機三樣我剛剛全部都列出來因為每一個我都有追蹤全部都失敗全部都失敗給他得標結果現在搞到起虎難下"},{"start":765.134,"end":787.764,"text":"到底要不要准他換啊不准他換繼續爛下去怎麼辦那准他換那當初這個評審是怎麼做的是不是有不可告人的地方是不是靠政商關係在南阿標案的社會都會關心嘛所以我也感謝部長啊勇於認識一個月之內您說的部分我詳細去了解一個月之內好謝謝"}]},"會議時間":"2024-09-26T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:55:55 - 13:09:08","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、內政部、內政部警政署及內政部國土管理署就「行人交通安全改善成效暨道路見警率對於道安事故防範效益與警力配置」進行專題報告，並備質詢。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫」進行專題報告，並備質詢。三、邀請交通部部長陳世凱及國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長杜微就「臺鐵公司化執行情況、獎敘規範暨軌道月台旅客安全規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":1095,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（12時55分）謝謝主席。麻煩有請交通部陳部長。"],["主席：好，請陳部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好。創新、智慧大概是民進黨政府過去幾年來一直強打的招牌，創新跟智慧……"],["陳部長世凱：創新行動。"],["黃委員國昌：對，過去這八年，交通部推展的ITS計畫，八年來投入多少預算？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我現在手上沒有資料可以提供給委員。"],["黃委員國昌：來！那你先說明一下，ITS目前推動的進度如何？"],["陳部長世凱：委員可以跟我指教。"],["黃委員國昌：你知不知道什麼是ITS？"],["陳部長世凱：委員可以跟我指教，是智慧交通的運輸嗎？"],["黃委員國昌：我們發展智慧運輸，目前政府已經投入72億，大家都在問這個到2024年的計畫，第一期四年30億，第二期四年到2024，是42.87億，總共投入72億搞的ITS計畫，目前的成效是什麼？請部長。"],["陳部長世凱：是，報告委員，當然各部分都在進步當中，但是自駕的部分，因為您圖片上寫了自駕部分，我覺得到目前為止都還沒有……"],["黃委員國昌：那個是Part 2啦！先回答Part 1的問題啦！ITS計畫投入了72億，目前的成效是什麼？具體的成效，講三點來聽就好了啦！講智慧、講創新，我們大家都同意嘛，72億丟下去，具體的成效不用太多，隨便講幾項出來聽就好了啦！"],["陳部長世凱：委員，請司長說明，好不好？"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告，針對這個ITS計畫，到目前就我所了解的，第一個部分，有些特定場域，包括淡海新市鎮那邊有一些交控試驗的場域，另外一個部分就是有關於自駕、無人沙盒的部分，經過經濟部核准16個試驗計畫，交通部這邊也有參與這個補助。第三個部分，大概就是說……"],["黃委員國昌：我先停一下啦！講到這裡，我不知道你自己會不會覺得心虛？丟了72億下去，我提開放式的問題，讓你可以自己promote，卻講得這麼虛無。你剛剛提到自駕，自駕巴士國家隊的口號什麼時候打出來的？什麼時候打出這個口號？部長知不知道？"],["陳部長世凱：委員請指教。"],["黃委員國昌：你什麼都要我指教，奇怪！你是部長，還是我是部長？我問你ITS，你要我指教……"],["陳部長世凱：委員，如果你都要問……"],["黃委員國昌：自駕巴士國家隊，你也要我指教，這個都是民脂民膏耶！人民砸下去的錢耶！"],["陳部長世凱：交通部有這麼多的建設，不可能每一個時間點我在這邊背給您聽。"],["黃委員國昌：我沒有要你背給我聽……"],["陳部長世凱：你剛剛不是問時間點嗎？"],["黃委員國昌：你連基本上的ITS是什麼都搞不清楚！"],["陳部長世凱：是智慧交通運輸，我剛剛沒有答不出來。"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒有關係啦！我換一個比較簡單的題目。自駕巴士國家隊目前進度如何？"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告，自駕巴士的部分，第一道程序就是要經經濟部核准，在這個沙盒實驗裡面去做實驗，所以……"],["黃委員國昌：現在多少業者走出了沙盒？"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告，據我所了解的，這個部分總共有16個計畫案，其中有10個是關於大客車的部分，目前只剩下兩案，一個是台積電……"],["黃委員國昌：所以有多少業者走出了沙盒？"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告，大概剩兩個案子，其他的目前已經都離開沙盒了……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個議題您之前關心過……"],["黃委員國昌：是結束，還是離開沙盒？"],["林司長福山：是計畫，就是在沙盒計畫已經結束。"],["黃委員國昌：結束了，然後呢？"],["林司長福山：結束的這部分，我跟委員報告，據我所了解，因為參與這一個沙盒計畫，裡面有系統業者、有車輛業者，相關系統業者開發的部分就是包括這些ADAS先進駕駛輔助系統的這個部分，他們也有轉向到做單品的產品，另外一個部分就是系統面的東西，他們也在跟車子……"],["黃委員國昌：沒關係，我再具體的問，你們目前估計大概還要多久可以上路？"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告，如果是自駕巴士這個部分，以目前國際上成熟的商品大概是到level 3，但是level 3的話，駕駛員都還要在這上面……"],["黃委員國昌：所以你們估計大概還要多久？"],["林司長福山：關於這個估計，在今年年底，我們就會有一個自駕巴士的操作指引出來，如果所謂的自駕巴士要真正能夠商用、上路的部分，可能比較可行的是在早期，可能是是公車專用道這個線型比較單純的……"],["黃委員國昌：所以還要多久？"],["林司長福山：我個人的看法，可能三到五年的時間。"],["黃委員國昌：三到五年？OK。","桃機三航廈運輸系統17億的標案裡面，其中一個非常重要的就是T2到T3，T2到T3旅客的運輸服務，我們現在安排的比較特殊，我們要用自駕車，我講的應該沒有錯吧！部長？"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒錯。"],["黃委員國昌：到現在可以follow上？"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒錯。"],["黃委員國昌：可以吧？好。T2到T3要搞自駕巴士的系統，我看了就覺得這個非常ambitious，非常好！其他先進的國家大家開始慢慢上路了，臺灣搞了8年，到現在，講原地踏步可能太沉重，但沒有任何一個業者出沙盒真的可以商轉也是事實嘛！因此我看到這個標案，我就很好奇當初是怎麼評選出來的，所以我就仔細的去拜讀招標的服務建議書，結果裡面看到了負責自駕控制的是一個系統，叫做理立系統股份有限公司，這家公司部長有沒有聽過？"],["陳部長世凱：有聽過。"],["黃委員國昌：有聽過嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：委員過去有質詢過，我有聽過您質詢過這個議題。"],["黃委員國昌：是，我質詢過很多次了，但我覺得非常的奇怪，這家公司不曉得是有什麼通天的本領，在臺灣的自駕車市場非常的活躍，這個標案又給它拿到了，標案給它拿到沒關係，交通看的是專業、看的是能力，絕對不是在搞政商關係、搞政商背景，給有能力、有專業的人拿到標案，天經地義、天公地道，但問題是，是這樣嗎？然後我就看了一下它當初投標建議服務書的實績，2018年臺中智慧城自駕車試行計畫也是理立得標。部長，那個時候你應該還是臺中市議員嘛？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["黃委員國昌：那個時候你應該在臺中市議會很認真的監督林佳龍部長在搞這個事，對吧？來，我跟你報告一下……"],["陳部長世凱：對這件事有關心，但是它到底哪些是廠商……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，因為你到部長的高度，我問部長層級的問題，不會問市議員、議員層級的問題。","理立，臺中自駕公車系統7,000萬，打水漂，一事無成；臺南的又給它7,300萬，還是一事無成；我們臺鐵原來的系統不好好用，丟了5,640萬給它搞列控4.0，結果運安會上個會期跟我說這個系統根本不能用。從臺中到臺南，然後到臺鐵，全部都是被害人，結果我們桃機這麼重要T2到T3的標案，又給它得標了！說明一下，現在這個標案又給理立自駕系統得標，目前的狀態是什麼？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我這邊的訊息不知道對不對，目前得標的廠商是成運汽車公司。"],["黃委員國昌：是，沒有錯。來，剛剛架構圖，我不是都畫給你看了嗎？主承包商是成運嘛！去做presentation的時候，除了成運以外，另外一個重要的人就是理立的系統嘛！因為自駕車的系統是理立在搞的嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：是，所以承包商是成運。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！所以我現在問你狀態如何，這個標案錢給它了嘛！你要推動，進度如何？大家都很關心嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：目前在細部設計當中。"],["黃委員國昌：目前在細部設計當中？"],["陳部長世凱：如果委員您對理立的系統有什麼樣子的疑慮，其實您可以提供給我們。"],["黃委員國昌：我現在直接請教，現在主承包商成運是不是有跟桃機申請，說這個理立很爛，根本不能用，要換？有還是沒有？"],["楊董事長偉甫：我們有得到這樣的訊息，不過我們已經有跟主承包商特別交代，我們必須要按照合約的規範，因為他們是單獨承攬……"],["黃委員國昌：是嘛！沒錯。"],["楊董事長偉甫：所以它必須要提出包括它的必要性，跟換承包商的那一個……"],["黃委員國昌：提計畫了沒有？"],["楊董事長偉甫：還沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：還沒有正式提嘛！"],["楊董事長偉甫：還沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：我接著要請教部長，也要拜託部長注意，我知道你剛上任，所以有一些資訊今天其實是利用質詢的時間提供給部長，請部長跟桃機董事長大家好好合作。因為我想桃機T3的進度延緩這件事情，全國國人都很關心，我相信院長也很關心……"],["陳部長世凱：我們全速在加速當中。"],["黃委員國昌：對，我先預告，這是我下一次質詢的主題。但就T2到T3的運輸，當初做了標案，也做了評選，結果搞了一個惡名昭彰的理立，讓它拿到標案，結果搞了幾年，說它能力不足，是在靠政商關係拿標案，對它的批評完全沒錯。"],["陳部長世凱：瞭解。"],["黃委員國昌：因為現在連主承包商成運都受不了，爛得不得了！他們自己都受不了，要換標商啊！我的問題就來了，當初這個評選到底是怎麼做的？部長可以去了解一下嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：好，沒問題，委員交代去了解，我就去了解。"],["黃委員國昌：需要多久？"],["陳部長世凱：應該一、兩個月內就可以了解清楚。"],["黃委員國昌：不用這麼久吧！部長，一個月好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好，沒問題，一個月內。"],["黃委員國昌：我要的是一個清楚的檢討，我們當初T2到T3，這些旅客的運輸何其重要，大剌剌的辦了招商，還評選，結果選到一個能力最差、最爛，還有詐騙紀錄的廠商，這還不是我們嘴巴講，它如果後來做得很成功，大家還是給它鼓鼓掌，但是現在連跟它一起合作的主承包商都受不了，要求要換廠商，那問題就大了，因為我相信桃機的董事長現在也很痛苦，按照本來招標的規範，都已經得標了嘛！得標到一半，你突然要換廠商，你也會擔心這樣會不會有公平性的問題，當初是它來評分，我給它了，現在你又要換，那麼當初其他參與競爭的廠商會不會覺得這個是有暗盤，還是在怎麼搞？得標了以後、評選了以後，還可以隨便換廠商。","所以我相信剛剛楊董事長講的在等它的申請，主要是這回事嘛！但我希望我們處理問題就是面對問題，要解決問題就要先面對問題，當初到底怎麼評選的、怎麼會給實績這麼爛的？它提給你們桃機的實績三樣，我剛剛全部都列出來，因為每一個我都有追蹤，全部都失敗，給它得標，結果現在搞到騎虎難下，到底要不要准它換？不准它換，繼續爛下去，怎麼辦？那准它換，當初評審是怎麼做的、是不是有不可告人的地方、是不是靠政商關係在拿標案的？社會都會關心嘛！所以我也感謝部長勇於任事，一個月之內。"],["陳部長世凱：您說的部分，我詳細去了解，一個月內……"],["黃委員國昌：一個月之內？好，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝黃委員。","接下來有請盧縣一委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":388,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-2","speakers":["魯明哲","蔡其昌","李昆澤","許智傑","何欣純","廖先翔","萬美玲","林沛祥","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","邱若華","游顥","賴士葆","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王鴻薇","黃國昌","盧縣一","林月琴","洪申翰","牛煦庭","黃健豪","羅智強","蔡易餘","葉元之","徐欣瑩","林國成","劉建國","傅崐萁"],"page_start":293,"meetingDate":["2024-09-26"],"gazette_id":"1137601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137601_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、內政部、內政部警政署及內政部國土管理署就「行人交通安全改善\n成效暨道路見警率對於道安事故防範效益與警力配置」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請交通\n部部長陳世凱就「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢；三、邀請交通部部長陳世凱及國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長杜微就「臺鐵公司化執行情\n況、獎敘規範暨軌道月台旅客安全規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137601_00018"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}