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部長辛苦了 我們就先開始謝謝委員今天很多人對你進行靈魂拷問是 因為從大家從傳統的觀念來看算是破格就任交通部長 對不對那當然很多人講是要學習沒有沒有破格啦 不是破格一般來講 要不然你要具有非常深厚的專業素養要不然就是經過一定的歷練嘛所以大家媒體會這樣報導其實也是其他有的我的歷練其實也不少"},{"start":39.798,"end":52.933,"text":"好 喜悅不少 沒有關係但我希望我聽到的是你今天帶來我先問你一個問題就是你請問部長就任之後你想要給整個交通部帶來什麼改變我們國家大的交通政策會有什麼樣的創新跟調整"},{"start":54.062,"end":54.522,"text":"時間有限"},{"start":81.913,"end":110.775,"text":"四平八穩的話大概差不多就好當然這很正常但我希望聽到的其實說部長相對年輕的這個年齡相對沒有像傳統不管是學經歷或怎麼樣就就任交通部長其實我覺得你可以得分的地方是有魄力嘛你來帶來一個大的改變帶來一個很好的政策亮點我想這就是坐穩這個位置非常重要的一個特質我跟你做交換的分享今天我們專案報告的主題其實在談的是行人安全你剛剛第一個講到的就是安全那我們就順著安全往下談"},{"start":111.516,"end":112.537,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就"},{"start":134.284,"end":153.449,"text":"中央有時候是規劃的部分是中央或者是說設計整體規劃是中央但實際到地方的執行是地方政府那中央只有補助那為什麼會打折扣你就從地方的視角來分析這個事就看地方政府他們在發包的過程真的只是地方政府的問題嗎"},{"start":155.046,"end":182.176,"text":"部長你也當過議員我也當過議員你都很清楚嘛我們當民意代表有時候坦白說會到地方施工的過程會有這個建議那個建議對嘛我們要聽到是基層的聲音對不對你人行道拓寬對不對哇停車位不見了哇里長不高興了對不對或者是開車有需求的人不高興了你的人行人路權好的政策初衷到了地方因為你要跟縣市妥協到最後又陷入人車在爭奪路服這樣子的一個"},{"start":182.876,"end":187.58,"text":"二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就、「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫。"},{"start":208.939,"end":226.294,"text":"這個爭論的問題怎麼來解決你覺得你在做部長這樣子的一個任內你有沒有目標要把台灣從車本城市轉型變成人本跟大眾運輸為主的交通政策我在上任的時候第一天大家問我說要怎麼做我第一句話叫做人本交通人本交通"},{"start":227.355,"end":241.087,"text":"好 那我們就順著這個往下講我現在請問部長我原本不問編制我問我們整個交通部裡面針對公共汽車明年的預算大概是多少大概就好公共汽車啊公共汽車"},{"start":243.079,"end":261.239,"text":"四十億是公共汽車但那個TPAS的部分另外算TPAS其實也比例也非常是九十億但是裡面不是全部是公共汽車啦沒錯TPAS我本來就要另外算公共汽車就好如果把TPAS含進去啊我們這個公共汽車這樣子的一個運輸啊"},{"start":264.898,"end":288.724,"text":"加起來總額大概是179億左右但是東拉西扣比如說T-PASS佔了90億就像你講的不存在是公共汽車還有光是電動巴士的補助就佔了4、50億真正你能夠支持地方基層做公車路網跟路線調整的大概就像你剛剛所講的大概4、50億左右部長你覺得這樣夠嗎?"},{"start":290.251,"end":306.669,"text":"我覺得公共汽車的部分可以再加強但是我們在TPAS實行之後我有看到一個蠻特殊的數據TPAS實行之後捷運跟鐵路的這個運量有上來但是公車的運量沒有上來所以這個部分其實要做得更好一點為什麼公車運量沒有上來"},{"start":308.154,"end":327.37,"text":"幾個部分啦當然補助的部分我們盡量做因為需求提升了可是供給沒有提升嘛對不對對但是我們的供給不但沒有提升反而是下降的我覺得為什麼要強調供給提升這個會變成一個惡性循環我們今天如果要從車本交通轉型成人本交通你總得解決通勤族的問題吧通勤族上班我們希望他可以多使用人行道"},{"start":327.97,"end":340.641,"text":"那他不開車他怎麼上班呢?如果沒有好的公共汽車的接駁路線他怎麼到捷運站呢?這都老問題了可是如果部長你上任你可以講說我就針對這個事好好解決的話那我覺得那是值得期待的現在供給下降的問題是"},{"start":342.543,"end":357.36,"text":"業者退場啊司機缺額的問題沒有辦法解決啊你看這幾年我們針對公共汽車的預算中110年的48億左右到了113年我們現在是排除TPAS的狀況好像有增加但是因為那是電動公車的專業那個專項的預算到114年其實總體藍色的部分其實是沒有什麼變化的"},{"start":362.421,"end":371.468,"text":"可是這個沒有什麼變化能夠解決中間發生很大的兩件事第一叫業者退場嘛第二叫司機缺額嘛你現在新的挑戰你如果用舊的邏輯跟舊的預算的時候請問你怎麼解決這樣的問題部長"},{"start":375.735,"end":403.682,"text":"報告委員目前的做法您應該也都清楚但是如果有更新的做法可以建議我歡迎委員建議給我們我期待看到的是未來這個預算當然應該要逐年來做上升而且這個上升你不是說我又多編電動公車現在你業者換電動公車有什麼用呢沒有司機開有什麼用對不對你看是哪一些的政策細節可以來做設計讓公車的補貼要提升嘛你要讓業者有誘因進場嘛你要專案解決司機缺額的問題嘛"},{"start":404.762,"end":429.892,"text":"這些東西要不然你要有好的政策優惠要不然你就要有大量的預算支持嘛你這樣才有辦法讓各級的地方政府去配合讓中央跟地方的公車路線去做提升嘛公車路線去提升的時候才有意義那很多人會講啊預算什麼大家都要對不對馬路建設也要對不對軌道建設也要可是部長這我講你也很清楚搞一條捷運線多少錢好幾百億這一條捷運線能夠服務多少地方"},{"start":430.973,"end":445.193,"text":"頂多一個自家式的兩三個行政區嘛長一點三五個行政區好幾百億造福了大概一個縣市的一半左右的旅客可是我們今天看的這個是全國捏全國的公共機車才50億一年啊難道不少嗎"},{"start":445.834,"end":464.591,"text":"是 我們應該是要增加啦那另外就是說增加幸福巴士的部分比較偏鄉或者是人口比較少這些細節啦我們希望在未來的幾年啦如果您在這個部長的位置上越坐越穩的時候我們希望看到的不只是我們針對行人安全的各式硬體健身提升啦軟體的部分也要提升啦你要讓我們台灣的交通從"},{"start":465.572,"end":466.553,"text":"希望部長加油謝謝謝謝委員執教"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-09-26T13:31:14.231000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:31:14.392000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-09-26T13:31:15.313000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:31:15.794000+08:00","text":"交通部長，有請。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-09-26T13:31:15.794000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:31:15.814000+08:00","text":"請陳部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-09-26T13:31:29.785000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:31:30.406000+08:00","text":"部長，辛苦了！","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-09-26T13:31:30.546000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:31:31.026000+08:00","text":"我們就先開始……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-09-26T13:31:31.606000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:31:32.046000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-09-26T13:31:32.046000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:31:40.571000+08:00","text":"今天很多人對你進行靈魂拷問，因為大家從傳統的觀念來看，你算是破格就任交通部長，對不對？","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-09-26T13:31:40.671000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:31:41.532000+08:00","text":"當然很多人講是在學習……","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-09-26T13:31:41.792000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:31:42.092000+08:00","text":"沒有破格啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-09-26T13:31:42.272000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:31:42.672000+08:00","text":"不是破格。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-09-26T13:31:44.133000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:31:51.257000+08:00","text":"一般來講，要嘛你要具有非常深厚的專業素養，要不然就是經過一定的歷練，所以媒體會這樣報導其實也是其來有自……","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-09-26T13:31:51.537000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:31:52.338000+08:00","text":"我的歷練其實也不少。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-09-26T13:31:52.798000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:31:54.540000+08:00","text":"好，其實也不少，沒有關係！","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-09-26T13:31:54.540000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:32:05.913000+08:00","text":"但我希望我聽到的是你今天要帶來的，我先問你一個問題，請問部長就任之後，你想要給整個交通部帶來什麼改變，我們國家大的交通政策會有什麼樣的創新與調整？","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-09-26T13:32:05.913000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-26T13:32:06.913000+08:00","text":"所有的交通建設都是所有民眾非常期待的，也真正都是福國利民的，也跟每一個民眾的生活絕對是息息相關的，我相信所有的民眾都希望可以做到更安全，這是第一個……安全。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-09-26T13:32:06.913000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-26T13:32:07.913000+08:00","text":"接下來更重要的是很多的民眾，包含委員在內，都希望能夠做得更多、做得更快、做得更好，這個部分，當然我上任之後，所有的進度我都會盯緊，讓它做得更快、做得更多、做得更好……","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-09-26T13:32:07.062000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:32:36.655000+08:00","text":"好，時間有限，四平八穩的話大概差不多就好……好。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-09-26T13:32:37.135000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:32:57.751000+08:00","text":"當然這很正常，但我希望聽到的其實是，部長相對年齡年輕，沒有像傳統，不管是學經歷或怎麼樣，就就任交通部長，其實我覺得你可以得分的地方是有魄力，你來帶來一個大的改變，帶來一個很好的政策亮點，我想這就是坐穩這個位置非常重要的一個特質，我跟你做交換分享……","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-09-26T13:32:57.751000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-26T13:32:58.751000+08:00","text":"是，謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-09-26T13:32:58.191000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:33:03.775000+08:00","text":"今天我們專案報告的主題其實在談的是行人安全，你剛才第一個講到的就是安全，我們就順著安全往下談。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-09-26T13:33:03.775000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-26T13:33:08.544800+08:00","text":"最近行人路權是顯學，從我們的中央政府到地方，其實都編列非常多的預算，執行非常多的建設，在改善這樣的事情，剛好這跟你的經驗相關，我們都當過地方的議員，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-09-26T13:33:08.544800+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-26T13:33:13.314600+08:00","text":"這樣的政策下到地方的時候，比如我們要做一個人行道的改善等等，常常打折扣，部長同意這樣的說法嗎？","quality":0.047},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-09-26T13:33:13.314600+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-26T13:33:18.084400+08:00","text":"確實是有這個……","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-09-26T13:33:18.084400+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-26T13:33:22.854200+08:00","text":"為什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-09-26T13:33:22.854200+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-26T13:33:27.624000+08:00","text":"為什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-09-26T13:33:27.624000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:33:37.387000+08:00","text":"有時候規劃的部分是中央，或者是說整體設計規劃是中央，但實際到地方的執行是地方政府，中央只有補助。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-09-26T13:33:38.807000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:33:39.387000+08:00","text":"對，為什麼會打折扣？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-09-26T13:33:39.687000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:33:42.808000+08:00","text":"你就從地方的視角來分析這個事。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-09-26T13:33:43.088000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:33:45.148000+08:00","text":"就看地方政府在發包的過程……","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-09-26T13:33:45.389000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:33:46.449000+08:00","text":"真的只是地方政府的問題嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-09-26T13:33:48.046000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:33:50.347000+08:00","text":"部長，你也當過議員，我也當過議員，你都很清楚……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-09-26T13:33:50.487000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:33:57.029000+08:00","text":"其實我們當民意代表，坦白說，有時候會到地方，在施工的過程會有這個建議、那個建議，建議不少……對嘛！","quality":0.756},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-09-26T13:33:57.189000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:33:59.130000+08:00","text":"我們要聽到的是基層的聲音，對不對？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-09-26T13:33:59.130000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:34:01.031000+08:00","text":"你要人行道拓寬，對不對？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-09-26T13:34:01.431000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:34:04.392000+08:00","text":"停車位不見了，里長不高興了，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-09-26T13:34:04.392000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:34:13.955000+08:00","text":"或者是開車有需求的人不高興了，你的行人路權好的政策初衷到了地方，因為要跟現實妥協，到最後又陷入人車在爭奪路幅這樣子一個一直以來都有的沉痾，對不對？是。","quality":0.696},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-09-26T13:34:13.955000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-26T13:34:14.955000+08:00","text":"我們聽到這樣子面對問題的態度就很好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-09-26T13:34:14.955000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-26T13:34:15.955000+08:00","text":"所以政策常常難落地，甚有可能造成所謂的衝突對立。","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-09-26T13:34:15.955000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-26T13:34:16.955000+08:00","text":"部長，如果你今天就任交通部長，你很大膽的講，我們就是貫徹政府這樣子的一個政策配套，我們能夠解決地方的問題，透過交通政策各方各面的配套措施。","quality":0.095},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-09-26T13:34:16.955000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-26T13:34:17.955000+08:00","text":"那我覺得你做這個交通部長，我願意讚美你，對不對？","quality":0.19},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-09-26T13:34:17.955000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-26T13:34:18.955000+08:00","text":"我們就順著這個往下談。","quality":0.1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-09-26T13:34:16.777000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:34:43.420000+08:00","text":"人、車這個爭論的問題怎麼來解決？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-09-26T13:34:43.420000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:34:52.668000+08:00","text":"你覺得你在部長任內，有沒有目標把臺灣從車本城市轉型變成人本及大眾運輸為主的交通政策？","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-09-26T13:34:53.369000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:34:56.111000+08:00","text":"我在上任的第一天，大家問我，要怎麼做？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-09-26T13:34:56.652000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:34:58.573000+08:00","text":"我第一句話叫做人本交通。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-09-26T13:34:58.894000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:34:59.274000+08:00","text":"人本交通。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-09-26T13:34:59.274000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-26T13:35:00.355000+08:00","text":"人本交通。","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-09-26T13:35:00.355000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:35:02.757000+08:00","text":"好，我們就順著這個往下講。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-09-26T13:35:02.757000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:35:10.884000+08:00","text":"我現在請問部長，我不問編制，我問我們整個交通部裡面針對公共汽車，明年的預算大概是多少？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-09-26T13:35:11.145000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:35:11.525000+08:00","text":"大概就好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-09-26T13:35:12.886000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:35:13.507000+08:00","text":"公共汽車啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-09-26T13:35:13.727000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:35:14.087000+08:00","text":"公共汽車。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-09-26T13:35:16.740000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:35:20.865000+08:00","text":"40億是公共汽車，但TPASS的部分另外算……","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-09-26T13:35:21.105000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:35:22.006000+08:00","text":"TPASS。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-09-26T13:35:22.446000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:35:26.470000+08:00","text":"TPASS其實比例也非常大，是90億，但是裡面不是全部是公共汽車……","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-09-26T13:35:26.551000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:35:29.574000+08:00","text":"沒錯，TPASS我本來就要另外算，公共汽車就好。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-09-26T13:35:29.574000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-26T13:35:30.695000+08:00","text":"是，另外算。","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-09-26T13:35:30.695000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:36:01.004000+08:00","text":"如果把TPASS含進去，我們公共汽車這樣子的運輸加起來，總額大概是179億左右，但是東拉西扣，譬如TPASS占了90億，就像你講的，不純然是公共汽車，光是電動巴士的補助，就占了40、50億，真正能夠支持地方基層做公車路網與路線調整的，就像你剛剛所講的，大概40、50億左右。","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-09-26T13:36:01.464000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:36:01.724000+08:00","text":"部長，你覺得這樣夠嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-09-26T13:36:03.251000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:36:14.003000+08:00","text":"我覺得公共汽車的部分可以再加強，但是在TPASS實行之後，我有看到一個滿特殊的數據，TPASS執行之後，捷運及鐵路的運量有上來……對嘛！","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-09-26T13:36:14.003000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:36:18.528000+08:00","text":"但是公車的運量沒有上來，所以這個部分其實要做得更好一點。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-09-26T13:36:18.528000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:36:19.669000+08:00","text":"為什麼公車的運量沒有上來？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-09-26T13:36:21.154000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:36:23.616000+08:00","text":"幾個部分，當然補助的部分我們儘量做……","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-09-26T13:36:23.857000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:36:27.700000+08:00","text":"因為需求提升了，可是供給沒有提升，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-09-26T13:36:27.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:36:27.820000+08:00","text":"對，但是供給……","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-09-26T13:36:28.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:36:30.682000+08:00","text":"我們的供給不但沒有提升，反而是下降的……目前……","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-09-26T13:36:30.822000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:36:31.563000+08:00","text":"我今天為什麼要強調公共汽車……","quality":0.538},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-09-26T13:36:32.143000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:36:33.004000+08:00","text":"這個會變成一個惡性循環……","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-09-26T13:36:33.004000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:36:37.227000+08:00","text":"我們今天如果要從車本交通轉型成人本交通，你總得解決通勤族的問題吧……是。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-09-26T13:36:37.788000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:36:42.031000+08:00","text":"通勤族上班，我們希望他可以多使用人行道，那他不開車，他怎麼上班呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-09-26T13:36:42.451000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:36:45.994000+08:00","text":"如果沒有好的公共汽車接駁路線，他怎麼到捷運站呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-09-26T13:36:46.655000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:36:52.280000+08:00","text":"這都老問題了，可是如果部長上任，你可以講，就針對這個事好好解決的話，我覺得那是值得期待的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-09-26T13:36:52.900000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:36:58.346000+08:00","text":"現在供給下降的問題是業者退場、司機缺額的問題沒有辦法解決……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-09-26T13:36:58.346000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-26T13:36:59.346000+08:00","text":"是，司機缺額滿多的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-09-26T13:36:59.067000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:37:07.977000+08:00","text":"你看這幾年我們針對公共汽車的預算，從110年的48億左右，到了113年，我們現在是排除TPASS的狀況，好像有增加，但是因為那是電動公車的專項預算……對。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-09-26T13:37:08.137000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:37:21.485000+08:00","text":"到114年，其實總體，就是藍色的部分是沒有什麼變化的，可是這個沒有什麼變化中間發生了很大的兩件事，第一個叫業者退場，第二個叫司機缺額……對。","quality":0.898},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-09-26T13:37:22.146000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:37:24.468000+08:00","text":"現在新的挑戰，你如果用舊的邏輯與舊的預算的時候，請問你怎麼解決這樣的問題？部長。","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-09-26T13:37:28.735000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:37:36.537000+08:00","text":"報告委員，目前的作法您應該也都清楚，但是如果有更新的作法可以建議，我歡迎委員建議給我們。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-09-26T13:37:36.537000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:37:40.778000+08:00","text":"我期待看到的是未來這個預算當然應該要逐年來做上升……是。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-09-26T13:37:41.438000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:37:45.719000+08:00","text":"而且這個上升你不是又多編電動公車，現在業者換電動公車有什麼用呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-09-26T13:37:46.059000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:37:47.880000+08:00","text":"沒有司機開有什麼用，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-09-26T13:37:47.880000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:38:10.387000+08:00","text":"你看是哪一些的政策細節可以來做設計，讓公車的補貼要提升，你要讓業者有誘因進場，你要專案解決司機缺額的問題，這些東西要不嘛你要有好的政策優惠，要不然你就要有大量的預算支持，你這樣才有辦法讓各級的地方政府去配合，讓中央與地方的公車路線去做提升，公車路線去提升的時候，才有意義。","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-09-26T13:38:10.487000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:38:13.348000+08:00","text":"很多人會講，預算什麼，大家都要，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-09-26T13:38:13.348000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:38:14.909000+08:00","text":"馬路建設也要，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-09-26T13:38:14.909000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:38:15.489000+08:00","text":"軌道建設也要。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-09-26T13:38:15.949000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:38:20.271000+08:00","text":"部長，可是這個我想你應該很清楚，搞一條捷運線多少錢？","quality":0.739},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-09-26T13:38:20.271000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:38:22.572000+08:00","text":"好幾百億，這一條捷運線能夠服務多少？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-09-26T13:38:23.973000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:38:38.193000+08:00","text":"頂多一個直轄市的2、3個行政區，長一點，3、5個行政區，好幾百億造福了大概一個縣市一半左右的旅客，可是我們今天看的這個是全國，全國的公共汽車才一年50億，難道不少嗎？","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-09-26T13:38:38.834000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:38:39.755000+08:00","text":"是，我們應該是要增加。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-09-26T13:38:40.476000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:38:44.119000+08:00","text":"另外，增加幸福巴士的部分，比較偏鄉或者是人口比較少，運量沒那麼高，但我們來做……","quality":0.676},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-09-26T13:38:44.519000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:38:55.890000+08:00","text":"這些細節，在未來的幾年，如果你在這個部長位置上越坐越穩的時候，我們希望看到的不只是我們針對行人安全的各式硬體建設提升，軟體的部分也要提升……好。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-09-26T13:38:56.530000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:38:57.591000+08:00","text":"你要讓我們臺灣的交通從開車為主可以轉向有別的選擇……是。","quality":0.44},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-09-26T13:38:57.591000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-26T13:38:58.591000+08:00","text":"我把公車路網這些東西完整的建構，解決了客運業者的這些問題之後，才會有質的改變……對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-09-26T13:38:58.591000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-26T13:38:59.591000+08:00","text":"我會認定、媒體也這樣認定，你是破格就任，破格就任，就用大的魄力來回應社會大眾的質疑。","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-09-26T13:38:59.591000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-26T13:39:00.591000+08:00","text":"我們今天第一次質詢，這是我給部長的建議，我們希望能夠帶來改變，未來針對公共汽車政策的很多細節，我們後面質詢的時候再來專項的討論，希望部長加油，謝謝。","quality":0.119},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-09-26T13:38:59.433000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-26T13:38:59.533000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員指教。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-09-26T13:39:00.033000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-26T13:39:01.461571+08:00","text":"謝謝牛委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-09-26T13:39:01.761571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-26T13:39:05.190143+08:00","text":"接下來有請黃健豪委員發言。","quality":0}]},"會議時間":"2024-09-26T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"13:31:13 - 13:39:28","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、內政部、內政部警政署及內政部國土管理署就「行人交通安全改善成效暨道路見警率對於道安事故防範效益與警力配置」進行專題報告，並備質詢。二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫」進行專題報告，並備質詢。三、邀請交通部部長陳世凱及國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長杜微就「臺鐵公司化執行情況、獎敘規範暨軌道月台旅客安全規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":1312,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（13時31分）謝謝主席。交通部長，有請。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長，辛苦了！我們就先開始……"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["牛委員煦庭：今天很多人對你進行靈魂拷問，因為大家從傳統的觀念來看，你算是破格就任交通部長，對不對？當然很多人講是在學習……"],["陳部長世凱：沒有破格啦！不是破格。"],["牛委員煦庭：一般來講，要嘛你要具有非常深厚的專業素養，要不然就是經過一定的歷練，所以媒體會這樣報導其實也是其來有自……"],["陳部長世凱：我的歷練其實也不少。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，其實也不少，沒有關係！但我希望我聽到的是你今天要帶來的，我先問你一個問題，請問部長就任之後，你想要給整個交通部帶來什麼改變，我們國家大的交通政策會有什麼樣的創新與調整？"],["陳部長世凱：所有的交通建設都是所有民眾非常期待的，也真正都是福國利民的，也跟每一個民眾的生活絕對是息息相關的，我相信所有的民眾都希望可以做到更安全，這是第一個……"],["牛委員煦庭：安全。"],["陳部長世凱：接下來更重要的是很多的民眾，包含委員在內，都希望能夠做得更多、做得更快、做得更好，這個部分，當然我上任之後，所有的進度我都會盯緊，讓它做得更快、做得更多、做得更好……"],["牛委員煦庭：好，時間有限，四平八穩的話大概差不多就好……"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：當然這很正常，但我希望聽到的其實是，部長相對年齡年輕，沒有像傳統，不管是學經歷或怎麼樣，就就任交通部長，其實我覺得你可以得分的地方是有魄力，你來帶來一個大的改變，帶來一個很好的政策亮點，我想這就是坐穩這個位置非常重要的一個特質，我跟你做交換分享……"],["陳部長世凱：是，謝謝委員。"],["牛委員煦庭：今天我們專案報告的主題其實在談的是行人安全，你剛才第一個講到的就是安全，我們就順著安全往下談。最近行人路權是顯學，從我們的中央政府到地方，其實都編列非常多的預算，執行非常多的建設，在改善這樣的事情，剛好這跟你的經驗相關，我們都當過地方的議員，對不對？這樣的政策下到地方的時候，比如我們要做一個人行道的改善等等，常常打折扣，部長同意這樣的說法嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：確實是有這個……"],["牛委員煦庭：為什麼？為什麼？"],["陳部長世凱：有時候規劃的部分是中央，或者是說整體設計規劃是中央，但實際到地方的執行是地方政府，中央只有補助。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，為什麼會打折扣？你就從地方的視角來分析這個事。"],["陳部長世凱：就看地方政府在發包的過程……"],["牛委員煦庭：真的只是地方政府的問題嗎？部長，你也當過議員，我也當過議員，你都很清楚……"],["陳部長世凱：其實我們當民意代表，坦白說，有時候會到地方，在施工的過程會有這個建議、那個建議，建議不少……"],["牛委員煦庭：對嘛！我們要聽到的是基層的聲音，對不對？你要人行道拓寬，對不對？停車位不見了，里長不高興了，對不對？或者是開車有需求的人不高興了，你的行人路權好的政策初衷到了地方，因為要跟現實妥協，到最後又陷入人車在爭奪路幅這樣子一個一直以來都有的沉痾，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們聽到這樣子面對問題的態度就很好。所以政策常常難落地，甚有可能造成所謂的衝突對立。部長，如果你今天就任交通部長，你很大膽的講，我們就是貫徹政府這樣子的一個政策配套，我們能夠解決地方的問題，透過交通政策各方各面的配套措施。那我覺得你做這個交通部長，我願意讚美你，對不對？","我們就順著這個往下談。人、車這個爭論的問題怎麼來解決？你覺得你在部長任內，有沒有目標把臺灣從車本城市轉型變成人本及大眾運輸為主的交通政策？"],["陳部長世凱：我在上任的第一天，大家問我，要怎麼做？我第一句話叫做人本交通。"],["牛委員煦庭：人本交通。"],["陳部長世凱：人本交通。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，我們就順著這個往下講。我現在請問部長，我不問編制，我問我們整個交通部裡面針對公共汽車，明年的預算大概是多少？大概就好。"],["陳部長世凱：公共汽車啊！"],["牛委員煦庭：公共汽車。"],["陳部長世凱：40億是公共汽車，但TPASS的部分另外算……"],["牛委員煦庭：TPASS。"],["陳部長世凱：TPASS其實比例也非常大，是90億，但是裡面不是全部是公共汽車……"],["牛委員煦庭：沒錯，TPASS我本來就要另外算，公共汽車就好。"],["陳部長世凱：是，另外算。"],["牛委員煦庭：如果把TPASS含進去，我們公共汽車這樣子的運輸加起來，總額大概是179億左右，但是東拉西扣，譬如TPASS占了90億，就像你講的，不純然是公共汽車，光是電動巴士的補助，就占了40、50億，真正能夠支持地方基層做公車路網與路線調整的，就像你剛剛所講的，大概40、50億左右。部長，你覺得這樣夠嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：我覺得公共汽車的部分可以再加強，但是在TPASS實行之後，我有看到一個滿特殊的數據，TPASS執行之後，捷運及鐵路的運量有上來……"],["牛委員煦庭：對嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：但是公車的運量沒有上來，所以這個部分其實要做得更好一點。"],["牛委員煦庭：為什麼公車的運量沒有上來？"],["陳部長世凱：幾個部分，當然補助的部分我們儘量做……"],["牛委員煦庭：因為需求提升了，可是供給沒有提升，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：對，但是供給……"],["牛委員煦庭：我們的供給不但沒有提升，反而是下降的……"],["陳部長世凱：目前……"],["牛委員煦庭：我今天為什麼要強調公共汽車……"],["陳部長世凱：這個會變成一個惡性循環……"],["牛委員煦庭：我們今天如果要從車本交通轉型成人本交通，你總得解決通勤族的問題吧……"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：通勤族上班，我們希望他可以多使用人行道，那他不開車，他怎麼上班呢？如果沒有好的公共汽車接駁路線，他怎麼到捷運站呢？這都老問題了，可是如果部長上任，你可以講，就針對這個事好好解決的話，我覺得那是值得期待的。","現在供給下降的問題是業者退場、司機缺額的問題沒有辦法解決……"],["陳部長世凱：是，司機缺額滿多的。"],["牛委員煦庭：你看這幾年我們針對公共汽車的預算，從110年的48億左右，到了113年，我們現在是排除TPASS的狀況，好像有增加，但是因為那是電動公車的專項預算……"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：到114年，其實總體，就是藍色的部分是沒有什麼變化的，可是這個沒有什麼變化中間發生了很大的兩件事，第一個叫業者退場，第二個叫司機缺額……"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：現在新的挑戰，你如果用舊的邏輯與舊的預算的時候，請問你怎麼解決這樣的問題？部長。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，目前的作法您應該也都清楚，但是如果有更新的作法可以建議，我歡迎委員建議給我們。"],["牛委員煦庭：我期待看到的是未來這個預算當然應該要逐年來做上升……"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：而且這個上升你不是又多編電動公車，現在業者換電動公車有什麼用呢？沒有司機開有什麼用，對不對？你看是哪一些的政策細節可以來做設計，讓公車的補貼要提升，你要讓業者有誘因進場，你要專案解決司機缺額的問題，這些東西要不嘛你要有好的政策優惠，要不然你就要有大量的預算支持，你這樣才有辦法讓各級的地方政府去配合，讓中央與地方的公車路線去做提升，公車路線去提升的時候，才有意義。","很多人會講，預算什麼，大家都要，對不對？馬路建設也要，對不對？軌道建設也要。部長，可是這個我想你應該很清楚，搞一條捷運線多少錢？好幾百億，這一條捷運線能夠服務多少？頂多一個直轄市的2、3個行政區，長一點，3、5個行政區，好幾百億造福了大概一個縣市一半左右的旅客，可是我們今天看的這個是全國，全國的公共汽車才一年50億，難道不少嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：是，我們應該是要增加。另外，增加幸福巴士的部分，比較偏鄉或者是人口比較少，運量沒那麼高，但我們來做……"],["牛委員煦庭：這些細節，在未來的幾年，如果你在這個部長位置上越坐越穩的時候，我們希望看到的不只是我們針對行人安全的各式硬體建設提升，軟體的部分也要提升……"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：你要讓我們臺灣的交通從開車為主可以轉向有別的選擇……"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：我把公車路網這些東西完整的建構，解決了客運業者的這些問題之後，才會有質的改變……"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：我會認定、媒體也這樣認定，你是破格就任，破格就任，就用大的魄力來回應社會大眾的質疑。我們今天第一次質詢，這是我給部長的建議，我們希望能夠帶來改變，未來針對公共汽車政策的很多細節，我們後面質詢的時候再來專項的討論，希望部長加油，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員指教。"],["主席：謝謝牛委員。接下來有請黃健豪委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":388,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-2","speakers":["魯明哲","蔡其昌","李昆澤","許智傑","何欣純","廖先翔","萬美玲","林沛祥","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","邱若華","游顥","賴士葆","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王鴻薇","黃國昌","盧縣一","林月琴","洪申翰","牛煦庭","黃健豪","羅智強","蔡易餘","葉元之","徐欣瑩","林國成","劉建國","傅崐萁"],"page_start":293,"meetingDate":["2024-09-26"],"gazette_id":"1137601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137601_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、內政部、內政部警政署及內政部國土管理署就「行人交通安全改善\n成效暨道路見警率對於道安事故防範效益與警力配置」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請交通\n部部長陳世凱就「雙十假期數波返鄉車潮之交通整備暨海陸空疏運計畫」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢；三、邀請交通部部長陳世凱及國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長杜微就「臺鐵公司化執行情\n況、獎敘規範暨軌道月台旅客安全規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137601_00018"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}