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狀態不是臨時提出來的他在民間已經倡議3年了"},{"start":552.138,"end":578.654,"text":"所以普及民間、廣獲共鳴你現在去Google大概有超過10萬筆的壯世代的文章在討論在這一期的商業週刊以壯世代做封面35頁報導那你可以看到這個在民間是如何而且他談的是企業對於企業看到的這一方面的共識也請部會能夠好好的"},{"start":579.133,"end":579.914,"text":"養養灑灑數萬字竟然沒有提到這五個字超高齡社會"},{"start":596.826,"end":609.269,"text":"我有點嚇到 你知道嗎 我說 院長我 院長你是忘了嗎 你的承諾嗎你心中沒有超高齡社會嗎但是我寧願相信 院長你最近真的是太累了"},{"start":610.077,"end":610.137,"text":"萬鈞蓄勢待發"},{"start":632.978,"end":656.016,"text":"行政院有決心嗎?大家突然有一點﹖有院長你的一言興邦﹖有時候一言悔邦這一個大家等待你這一個在這個跨部會小組在陳政委的領導下召開的三次會議主動的從6個部會擴充到13個部會"},{"start":660.289,"end":681.365,"text":"這是主動 這不是委員的要求是他們在探討過程當中會發現真的是很多部會跟高聯化都有關也提出了64項的計畫這個項目大概就看到這個盛世壯大盛世壯大讓我們 但是仔細一看以後發現"},{"start":683.991,"end":705.917,"text":"這都是匯編的現行措施現行措施沒有策略引導沒有未來性沒有前瞻性感覺就是敷衍表示另外我們也詢問了各個部會有關壯世代這13個部會有關壯世代編類預算的情況根據他們的回覆"},{"start":714.883,"end":737.142,"text":"有5個部會掛零 兩個部會是零頭勞動部沒有公務預算 另外找一些基金衛福部都是在做一些文康志工 也都是湊數性的讓我們真的是滿腔熱血 突然被潑了冷血不過剛蘇發布"},{"start":738.739,"end":766.777,"text":"有傳給我說他們其實是有編列的1.7億那只是名稱沒有用對但是這個不是一個名稱這是一個政策不是名稱掛羊頭賣狗肉那也沒有意義院長這裡喔超高齡社會再過95天8年後台灣一半人口超過50歲那我要三問院長"},{"start":767.97,"end":768.811,"text":"院長你覺得"},{"start":790.521,"end":805.911,"text":"報告委員我們國家的政策國發會長期以來都有相當整密的規劃甚至他們也定期的或是不定期的會發表很多對國家政策的過去的分析未來的預判目前這個工作也正在進行當中"},{"start":806.851,"end":811.775,"text":"各部會呈現出來的編類 像教育部 終身教育師 預算 針對60歲以上的教育預算 佔教育部的0.2%基本上各部會幾乎都是1%以下"},{"start":832.588,"end":832.808,"text":"吳春城議員"},{"start":848.106,"end":873.76,"text":"不過請委員能夠關心因為我們剛剛因為由您的一邊督促陳時中政委是非常快速的行動未來他會在我們社會福利推動委員會當中也會定期的將這個議題納為報告的重點那各部會也有他可以雲芝的這個預算跟費用我認為在所謂定義成眾世代的相關的過程當中政府不會去忽略了"},{"start":874.605,"end":903.081,"text":"移漏了這一塊那以後還要請委員我們繼續來督促是不是執行的能夠到位這個各部位因為主動都站出來各部位有誠意但是我們現在欠缺的是什麼跟委員報告我可以補充事實上我們今年14年教育部在這個中生學習這一塊我們事實上經會我特別因為委員關心這個壯世代我覺得那也確實在"},{"start":903.541,"end":905.302,"text":"我看好像主計處的資料這一個在我們的稅基上面壯士代的貢獻是占了55%"},{"start":933.106,"end":960.173,"text":"是支撐我們國家各位我們行政院編列中的預算55%以上是壯士代因為他有工作能力有消費力但是我們很多為他們照顧不到1%好 第二問 院長這不是老人的問題這是年輕人的問題年輕世代大家都在談扶養比這個扶養比這個工作人口當分母然後被扶養當分子那因為高齡化"},{"start":960.981,"end":961.021,"text":"吳春城議員"},{"start":965.721,"end":985.153,"text":"越來越小對不對目前是4比1委員吳春城我時間暫停一下好不好對不起那個備詢的部長你看問哪一位就在那邊其他的部長就請回好不好因為這樣子這個畫面等一下我要請你們出來跟我喊口號好不好請各位部長先回院長請留下來我們的大家長對不起我覺得這樣會比較好一點抱歉抱歉吳委員對不起請繼續好"},{"start":994.178,"end":1012.267,"text":"目前是4比1啦 4個扶養1個到2040年是2比1啦到2057年就1比1啦 台就分子代分母啦我要請問院長對這個會壓垮下一代的扶養品國家希望工程有解方嗎"},{"start":1013.985,"end":1014.045,"text":"吳春城議員"},{"start":1028.035,"end":1043.594,"text":"高齡照顧上面我們會持續推動長照3.0來增加年輕人在對高齡長輩的一個負擔那我們會做更多的家庭投資來投資給這個年輕的家庭讓他們能夠從減輕負擔開始"},{"start":1046.021,"end":1057.269,"text":"能夠比較成長自己的撫養的這個能力這個就是在過程當中這個事情沒有一個社會有辦法去照顧一半的人口都從照顧撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養撫養�"},{"start":1074.225,"end":1091.752,"text":"這些人不是我們所想像的都是躺在那邊靠撫養的靠社會福利的他們事實上可以生產者消費者繼續成為一個社會的貢獻者現在戰後嬰兒草全部進入60歲了戰後嬰兒草有三個特質"},{"start":1093.817,"end":1104.347,"text":"高壽、高智能、高資產這些是社會上非常有用的人我們現在就把他打到社會的邊緣去了讓他任由他們臥床躺平"},{"start":1105.066,"end":1105.346,"text":"吳春城議員吳春城議員"},{"start":1132.168,"end":1132.348,"text":"吳春城議員"},{"start":1146.206,"end":1146.546,"text":"三問院長"},{"start":1175.799,"end":1194.566,"text":"我們現在的社福預算已經超過了8300億了現在呢 花了這些錢可以解決我們的人口國安危機嗎還是這些錢有辦法承諾 如果花了這些錢就有效 那我們當然值得花嘛有效嗎 會嗎 會解決嗎"},{"start":1196.411,"end":1215.402,"text":"委員應該清楚人口的危機不會是一年兩年就可以解決的但至少我們現在有一個方向我們如何先維持現在的出生率能夠把它維持住再想盡各種有效的途徑讓把它提高所以我們用更多的剛剛說的社會投資從0到2歲2到6歲之後的義務教育"},{"start":1220.278,"end":1240.956,"text":"國中到大學一路上0到22歲國家跟著大家一起養的這種觀念希望鼓勵大家這一個是一個全面性的問題這一個也不是靠幾個救濟性的措施能夠解決的問題既然是國安危機這麼容易解決就不叫國安危機了"},{"start":1241.917,"end":1269.946,"text":"那所以呢最終的源自於我們失衡的高齡政策我們現在只有單軌式的照顧性政策而沒有發展性政策那這個8300億也只能照顧15%就是這些已經越來越失能越來越需要照顧的但是呢任由85% 800萬的人像土石流一樣的因為隨著他們年紀越來越大未來都是高齡者一定越來越多嘛"},{"start":1270.623,"end":1270.883,"text":"雙軌並行,我們現在只有單軌"},{"start":1300.393,"end":1306.639,"text":"這兩個必須為什麼他有所不同學理不同 目標不同不能混為一談混為一談就是沒有解方嘛OK 下來這個 院長你也看到了大家"},{"start":1327.216,"end":1356.433,"text":"都起義來歸了要追隨你我們要來給全民做承諾各級的車廂都到位了論述到位 行政到位 立法到位 審計到位媒體 輿論都到位了但是我們竟然發現沒有火車頭沒有火車頭這些變成什麼展示櫥窗喔展示櫥窗 好看的做好看的這樣其實沒有在動火車頭在哪裡"},{"start":1357.999,"end":1380.23,"text":"我的頭在我的對面就是你就是你你知道你非常的重要我們現在來看日本怎麼做日本在1995年就有高齡社會對策基本法30年前欸人家30年前就有這個我們看他的第15條在內閣府要設立高齡社會對策會議"},{"start":1381.887,"end":1385.054,"text":"第16條 會議的會長有內閣總理大臣擔任 就是我們的行政院長"},{"start":1389.212,"end":1390.693,"text":"吳春城議員吳春城議員吳春城議員吳春城議員"},{"start":1415.575,"end":1440.321,"text":"不僅認同我們也是朝這個方向我們有社會福利推動委員會那也是由院長來召集的雖然不是跟日本這樣一個單一的訴求我們一定會把那個議題剛剛陳時中政委所努力過的這種過程放在裡面做一個我覺得有誠意沒有決心決心要做就要做到底其實也不用效法日本我們自己行政院就有了只是看你重不重視這個關心問題"},{"start":1443.103,"end":1462.177,"text":"我們現在行政院這個效能做得不錯是人員跟檢探辦公室已經有這個檢探辦公室可以依照中央行政組織機關基準法第28條就可以成立這些組織編制所以現在法令由派任然後要有召集人要有副院長以上的人來擔任"},{"start":1463.098,"end":1463.698,"text":"執行長：副主任：分組業務"},{"start":1486.731,"end":1501.941,"text":"這件事情﹚人口的問題涉及的13個部位都來了再看看有沒有決心而已有決心就應該要比照這樣的方式才有辦法而這個解決是未來台灣一半人口的幸福"},{"start":1502.757,"end":1528.791,"text":"跟委員報告不僅決心還要有行動在社會福利推動委員會召開的19次會議當中跟委員報告17到19次這幾次裡面都有把壯世代的議題列為一個討論那是不是我們會後可以把這個討論的重點再跟委員做詳細的說明跟報告因為我知道前面的問題啦就是真的是我也看得出院長的誠意但是我們沒有找到問題的核心"},{"start":1529.511,"end":1529.992,"text":"臺灣進入超高齡社會"},{"start":1546.721,"end":1549.242,"text":"可否承諾在行政院設立專責的壯世代政策辦公室"},{"start":1575.493,"end":1579.875,"text":"但是要比照像檢探辦公室這樣的編制按照這樣的組織法來成立你給他要馬兒跑但是不給他吃草"},{"start":1598.345,"end":1601.587,"text":"我會緊記剛剛委員所說的有想法還要有決心還要下去行動我跟你講我們的決心都是夠的行動或許剛開始我們在收集更完整的資料但最後我們就會收斂"},{"start":1621.881,"end":1649.742,"text":"提出幾個重點的計畫 院長可不可以承諾這樣子 成立這個辦公室這個問題我已經陳述 這個我看周邊這個是大數據這個的問題涉及到這麼多 如果這是一個國安問題這是一個希望工程的問題 扶養筆的問題 少子化的問題 社福要破產的問題ESG所有的這些的問題都跟這件事情有關"},{"start":1650.763,"end":1653.485,"text":"委員長你是領導我講這件事情我非常清楚了"},{"start":1674.48,"end":1674.86,"text":"我跟委員的承諾"},{"start":1693.763,"end":1695.664,"text":"社會福利委員會的思維那個就單軌你再把這個放在這個單軌底下就死路一條啦"},{"start":1716.212,"end":1744.491,"text":"保證死路一條我們已經搞太久了啦或者是我們國發會他現在已經有一個人口對策的一個相關的組織我們可以把它做內容功能的強化是不是請朱偉來說明一下我跟委員報告一下我剛剛跟陳政委有做討論我們認為整個人口的問題都必須被探討不是只有壯世代從年輕人要不要生小孩一路到老所以我們希望成立一個人口對策的辦公室"},{"start":1745.111,"end":1745.731,"text":"吳春城議員吳春城議員吳春城議員"},{"start":1768.186,"end":1794.925,"text":"跟委員報告日前我們討論過人口政策的時候大概都有這樣交換意見只是還沒有把它當作一個純熟對外發表的過程所以我說我還跟陳政委還有社福推動委員會跟國發會我們在做一個比較完整的規劃我覺得推出來不是一個空的架構空的組織它必須要精神內容跟計劃齊成這樣我們才能夠對後續的工作有十足的掌握"},{"start":1799.221,"end":1821.421,"text":"我跟院長報告現在在馬上進入超高齡社會了你今天在這裡不能做承諾沒有決心那全民都看到我們有動作我們有行動這是一個決心的問題我們是有絕對的承諾面對人口的問題壯士代是人口問題的一部分"},{"start":1822.618,"end":1845.701,"text":"對但是非常核心的一部分好嗎是的非常核心而且跟你講這跟高齡化跟少子化是一體制兩面掌握三分之二財富金管會是這樣子這些財富都鎖在這裡年輕人沒有未來變成食水經濟包括長壽經濟是年輕人的未來最重要的產業發展包括教育包括文化所有的層面來我們看下一頁"},{"start":1848.01,"end":1848.43,"text":"我個人也不會認為銀髮是海嘯"},{"start":1914.659,"end":1914.702,"text":"主席"}]},"會議時間":"2024-09-27T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:16:24 - 11:48:19","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第2次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","gazette":{"lineno":753,"blocks":[["吳委員春城：（11時16分）有請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：吳委員好。"],["吳委員春城：院長好，你辛苦了。"],["卓院長榮泰：不會，應該的。"],["吳委員春城：剛剛聽到你跟陳雪生委員的對話，在談馬祖的建設，我是非常感動，我覺得陳委員老當益壯，在為家鄉謀福利，所以我覺得我們應該政治放一邊，齊心愛臺灣，大家一起攜手合作，全民都在看著我們。","今天我的這個議題非常重要，因為就像上面寫的，再過95天臺灣就正式進入超高齡社會，被視為國安危機的人口問題是否有解？希望院長暫時把一切紛擾放一邊，我們能夠專注用心地，以國家利益大於政黨利益，甚至大於個人得失，因為這件事情事關到600萬的壯世代，還有年輕人的未來，所以現在有萬名的人線上在看我們這場質詢。","我用一個比有趣一點的，希望不要劍拔弩張，能夠有高度、有風度地來一場華山論劍，能夠對於我們如何邁向超高齡社會跟院長有一個很好的交流給全民交代，這樣好嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：好。我覺得委員不用用「大論辯」，我們用大討論就可以了。"],["吳委員春城：大討論，對，OK，華山論劍嘛！華山論劍可能到最後就是齊心齊力一致對外嘛！","院長知道這是人口危機，我在這個領域也很久了，我深深地感受到，往前30年臺灣最重要的問題是民主化的問題，但是到現在還在談民主化就是笑話了。民進黨明天就是38歲了，從青少年到現在中年，還在搞同樣的問題就要再加油一點了。往後30年最重要的是什麼？是人口的問題，有高齡化跟少子少。臺灣有全世界最快的老化、最嚴重的少子化，像直接掉下懸崖一樣的人口，跟南韓並列為全世界兩個人口問題最嚴重的國家，到2057年我們會超越日本，比日本還老，這樣的人口危機，請問行政院準備好了嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，我們日前曾經試圖討論過這個重要的問題，包括我們現在的出生率等等，其中我特別提到幾年前我手上的一個資料，說到2070年臺灣的人口可能降到1,500萬，現在我們要維持這樣的數字也必須要做更多、更多的努力，否則我們會失去……"],["吳委員春城：對、對、對，像日本甚至有日本滅絕論，希望臺灣不要哪一天要討論這個問題。所以努力就從我們現在開始，這個我們已經太長期忽略了，特別明年（2025年）是邁向超高齡社會元年，我們正式面對超高齡社會來臨的元年，希望從院長開始。因為這個問題會讓臺灣整個動能消失，再過10年，2034年臺灣有一半人口將超過50歲，一半人口！這一群人茫茫然，沒有方向感、沒有政策、沒有產業，任其這樣子倒下來，這個也成為少子化的成因，年輕人沒有未來。","這裡我還是要感謝院長，在5月31日你第一天到國會來做施政報告接受總質詢，我也第一天就質詢你，當時看到你懷抱理想、暢談國家希望工程，請問院長，你現在雄心壯志還在嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：記得當天我還謝謝委員，因為你壯世代的這種標準把我都列進去了，我都感覺到溫暖，我們當時所談的，我們會一步一步落實到現在的人口政策裡面，對於委員最關心55歲壯世代還有生產力的消費者，而且具有工作能力的這一群，如果讓他導入到社會，同時國家、社會能夠對他做更多的關懷及投資，這就是我們現在在包容成長裡面有關於社會投資相當重要的部分……"],["吳委員春城：很好！院長，你知道的，你是國家最高的行政首長，你一言興邦，你的一句話影響力有多大，所以我們不是隨便嘴巴講一講……"],["卓院長榮泰：當然是。"],["吳委員春城：就過了。你知道你當時承諾在行政院成立的跨部會小組終於也啟動了整個壯世代的計畫列車，因為我們都很當真，我們都很相信院長，所以有6位部長都啟動了。","我們來看一下，連立法院都動起來了，立法院韓院長還有出席主持，我們有63位立委加入了壯世代政策及產業發展促進會（壯促會），還有200多位的學者專家，這個也在我們群賢樓9樓創下一時的朝野共識，所以可以看到立法院動起來了。我們再看，審計部都動起來了，審計部一直對我們政府在高齡化、少子化處理的政策很不滿意、很有意見，也出了很多指導的評論分析，但是看起來大家都置之不理，審計長也認同了壯世代的理念，認為這是一個新社會的解方，邀請我去跟他們上課，做了很多的溝通，針對430位的審計人員，他最後也承諾要把這樣的政策列為年度的審計重點，希望審計部與行政院能夠大家一起同心同力。另外，我們的政務官，我也非常感謝我們陳時中政委，在院長承諾之後，他立刻接下任務，立馬行動，很快速的在兩個禮拜之內就召開了這個跨部會小組的會議，他也深入的去瞭解什麼是壯世代，跟過去的銀髮族有什麼不同，因為他當過衛福部長，他非常瞭解銀髮族，對於新的，他深表認同，也展開了一些行動目標，召開了3次會議，在8月12號我們召開了壯世代的公聽會，盛極一時，有250位的專家出席、50位的中央官員出席，我特別感謝有8位部會的次長4個小時全程參與，沒有跑掉，大家非常熱烈，而且很有共識，達成了10點共識，後來也有送到行政院給各位參考。","另外也跟院長報告，壯世代不是臨時提出來的，它在民間已經倡議三年了，所以普及民間、廣獲共鳴，你現在去google大概有超過10萬筆壯世代的文章在討論，在這一期的商業週刊以壯世代做封面，有35頁的報導，你可以看到這一個觀念在民間是如何，而且它談的是企業，對於企業在這一方面的共識，也請部會能夠好好的去看一下這一些民間的需求反映。","但是那一天院長你的施政報告整本厚厚的，我還從頭到尾檢查，洋洋灑灑數萬字，竟然沒有提到這5個字──超高齡社會，我有點嚇到你知道嗎？院長是忘了你的承諾嗎？你心中沒有超高齡社會嗎？但是我寧願相信，院長你最近真的是太累了。"],["卓院長榮泰：已經在進行中的事情，我沒有把它特別強調，這點抱歉。"],["吳委員春城：對，當然啦！這一點我基本上是體諒你的，覺得你是太累了，分心太多啦！但是這件事情還是裡面提到的，因為大家都動起來了，萬軍蓄勢待發，然後行政院有決心嗎？大家突然有一點……院長，你的一言興邦，有時候一言毀邦，大家在等待你。跨部會小組在陳政委的領導下召開了3次會議，主動的從6個部會擴充到13個部會，這是主動的，這不是委員的要求，是他們在探討過程當中會發現，真的是很多部會跟高齡化都有關，也提出了64項計畫，大概看到這些項目會認為聲勢壯大，但是仔細一看以後發現這些都是彙編的現行措施，沒有策略引導、沒有未來性、沒有前瞻性，感覺就是敷衍了事。","另外我們也詢問了這13個部會有關壯世代編列預算的情況，根據他們的回復，幾乎都零零落落，有5個部會掛零，2個部會是零頭，勞動部沒有公務預算，另外找一些基金，衛福部都是在做一些文康志工，也都是湊數性的，讓我們真的是滿腔熱血突然被潑了一盆冷水，不過剛剛數發部有傳給我說他們其實有編列了1.7億，只是名稱沒有用對，但是這個不是一個名稱，這是一個政策，不是用名稱掛羊頭賣狗肉，那也沒有意義。","院長，超高齡社會再過95天，8年後臺灣一半人口超過50歲，那我要三問院長，看到現在我們的各個縣市，有7個縣市現在已經是超高齡社會了，國家的人口政策可以沒有長期性、前瞻性的政策，只靠秘書彙編這種隨附的措施，可以解決這樣子的人口政策嗎？院長，你覺得呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，對於我們國家的政策，國發會長期以來都有相當縝密的規劃，甚至他們也會定期或是不定期的發表很多對國家政策過去的分析、未來的預判，目前這個工作也正在進行當中。"],["吳委員春城：我知道國發會很努力，但是他們提的東西你們都不看啊！各部會都不看啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：新的國發會，就還沒有完全成熟的部分，我們有討論過……"],["吳委員春城：各部會呈現出來的編列，像教育部終身教育司針對60歲以上的教育預算，占教育部的0.2%，基本上各部會幾乎都是1%以下，幾乎都是在衛福部，這個1%也都是配合衛福部的一些措施，基本上大家都認為60歲就沒用了，所以文化也不用了，教育也不用了，隨隨便便，是不是這樣？"],["卓院長榮泰：請委員能夠寬心，因為有您的督促，陳時中政委是非常快速的行動，未來他在我們社會福利推動委員會當中也會定期的將這個議題納為報告的重點，各部會也有它可以勻支的預算跟費用，我認為在所謂定義成壯世代的相關過程當中，政府不會去忽略、遺漏這一塊，以後還要請委員繼續來督促，看執行的是不是到位。"],["吳委員春城：各部會主動都站出來了，我知道各部會有誠意，但是我們現在欠缺的是什麼？是決心。"],["鄭部長英耀：有，跟委員報告，我可以補充，事實上114年教育部在終身學習這一塊的經費上，因為委員關心壯世代，那也確實在整個學習人生的一個規劃裡面，所以我特別增加了二點多億，也就是說，我們從原來的經費……"],["吳委員春城：3.4億。"],["鄭部長英耀：增加到將近5億的經費，所以這整個所占的比例，教育部的經費也有超過百分之一點多，所以不是委員講的0.2%……"],["吳委員春城：我看了好像是主計處的資料，在我們的稅基上面，壯世代的貢獻就占了55%，支撐著我們國家。各位，行政院編列這麼多預算，55%以上是壯世代……"],["卓院長榮泰：因為他有工作能力、有消費力。"],["吳委員春城：但是我們對他們的照顧卻不到1%。第二問，院長，這不是老人的問題，這是年輕人的問題，年輕世代，大家都在談撫養比，就是把工作人口當分母，被撫養者當分子，但因為高齡化，所以分子就越來越大；又因為少子化，分母就越來越小，對不對？目前是四比一……"],["主席：吳委員，我時間暫停一下好不好？對不起，備詢的部長，你看要問哪一位，就站在那邊，其他的部長就請回，好不好？因為這樣子這個畫面……"],["吳委員春城：OK，等一下我要請你們出來跟我喊口號，好不好？"],["主席：對，因為這樣子不是很好看。"],["吳委員春城：現在先請回。"],["主席：請各位部長先回，院長請留下來。"],["吳委員春城：我們的大家長。"],["主席：對不起，我覺得這樣會比較好一點。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝院長。"],["主席：吳委員，對不起，請繼續。"],["吳委員春城：好。目前是四比一，四個撫養一個，到2040年是二比一，到2057年就一比一，分子就大於分母了。我要請問院長，對於這個會壓垮下一代的撫養比，國家希望工程有解方嗎？我們現在承諾了，我們現在所做的事情可以解開這個撫養比，這個撫養比都是學者做的、國發會做的資料，有沒有什麼解方？"],["卓院長榮泰：從高齡的照顧上面，我們會持續推動長照3.0，來減輕年輕人在對高齡長輩的負擔；我們會做更多的家庭投資，來投資給年輕家庭，讓他們能夠從減輕負擔開始，來增加自己的撫養能力，這個都是在過程當中。"],["吳委員春城：院長，這個事情，沒有一個社會有辦法去照顧一半的人口，都從照顧……"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["吳委員春城：壯世代不是一個名詞，它涉及到很多的政策，壯世代有它的解方，就是把分子壯起來，拉下來當分母，這些人不是我們所想像的都是躺在那邊要靠撫養、要靠社會福利的，他們事實上可以作為生產者、消費者，繼續成為一個社會的貢獻者。現在戰後嬰兒潮全部進入60歲了，戰後嬰兒潮有三個特質──高壽、高智能、高資產，這些是社會上非常有用的人，但我們現在就把他們打到社會的邊緣去，任由他們臥床躺平，然後面對這樣大量的老人，我們再用社福去救濟，這不是一個很愚蠢的方法嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我一直有一個講法，就是讓高齡者健康多一天，會好過我們對他的照顧多一點，所以衛福部、勞動部有途徑，包括這些壯世代跟高齡者的學習、就業、投資、文化、文康、觀光等等，甚至自願服務、做志工，讓他再進到社會，這些都有途徑的。"],["吳委員春城：其實我們換個角度，從銀髮思維的角度就是照護；但是如果從壯世代的思維，你會發現這群人太有用了，是臺灣社會重要的支撐力量。我們把他拉下來，大家看到臺灣扶養者的底盤就非常壯大，而且下面就是世代和諧、世代共榮、世代共同工作，這才是一個美好的臺灣。不然一直花他們的錢、掏空臺灣，未來下一個世代支撐不住，沒有人有辦法扶養。","再來三問院長，我們現在的社福預算已經超過了8,300億，花了這些錢可以解決我們的人口國安危機嗎？還是有辦法承諾，如果花了這些錢就有效，那我們當然值得花嘛！有效嗎？會嗎？會解決嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員應該清楚，人口的危機不會是一年、兩年就可以解決的，但至少我們現在有一個方向，如何先維持現在的出生率，能夠把它維持住，再想盡各種有效的途徑把它提高，所以我們用更多剛剛說的社會投資，從0到2歲、2到6歲之後的義務教育，到國中、到大學，一路上0到22歲，國家跟著大家一起養的這種觀念，希望鼓勵大家。"],["吳委員春城：我知道這是一個全面性的問題，也不是靠幾個救濟性的措施就能夠解決的問題。既然是國安危機，這麼容易解決就不叫國安危機了。"],["卓院長榮泰：當然。"],["吳委員春城：所以最終源自於我們失衡的高齡政策，我們現在只有單軌式的照護性政策，而沒有發展性政策。這個8,300億也只能照顧15%已經越來越失能、越來越需要照顧的這些人，但是任由85%、800萬的人像土石流一樣，因為隨著他們年紀越來越大，未來高齡者一定越來越多，高齡者如果越來越多，有多少的錢可以用照護措施來解決這個問題？一定無解的嘛！我們要避免讓這些人像土石流一樣，因為高齡社會來臨，他們占人口的總數一定會越來越多，但是我們一定不能讓他的比例增加，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["吳委員春城：就是需要照護的比例。如何做到？當然一定要有發展性政策，雙軌並行，我們現在只有單軌。為什麼現在把壯世代依附在社會福利政策？社會福利就是一個照護性的思維跟措施，這兩個為什麼有所不同？學理不同、目標不同，不能混為一談，混為一談就沒有解方。","院長，你也看到了，大家都起義來歸了，要追隨你，我們要來給全民承諾，各節車廂都到位了，論述到位、行政到位、立法到位、審計到位、媒體輿論都到位了，但是我們竟然發現沒有火車頭！沒有火車頭，這些就變成展示櫥窗，做好看的，其實沒有在動。火車頭在哪裡？火車頭在我的對面，就是你！你知道你非常的重要嗎？我們現在來看日本怎麼做，日本在1995年就有高齡社會對策基本法，人家30年前就有這個。我們看它的第十五條，在內閣府要設立高齡社會對策會議，第十六條就是這個會議的會長由內閣總理大臣擔任，就是我們的行政院長。當然不是只有這樣擔任，不只是一個會議，底下要有幹事，還要很多的管考、KPI、預算、期程，不能只是靠現在用秘書彙編，然後侷限於現行的組織框架、政策工具、法令，還有缺乏訓練的情況之下來彙編，這是沒辦法去扛起這個大責的啦！院長，你認同嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：不僅認同，我們也是朝這個方向，我們有社會福利推動委員會……"],["吳委員春城：好，其實……"],["卓院長榮泰：那也是由院長來召集的，雖然不是跟日本這樣一個單一的訴求，我們一定會把那個議題，即剛剛陳時中政委所努力過的這個過程放在裡面做一個重要的……"],["吳委員春城：我覺得有誠意沒有決心，有決心要做就要做到底，其實也不用效法日本，我們自己行政院就有了，只是看你重不重視這個國安新問題，現在行政院效能做得不錯的是能源及減碳辦公室，已經有這個減碳辦公室，依照中央行政機關組織基準法第二十八條就可以成立這些組織編制，所以現在有法令派任，然後要有召集人，要由副院長以上的人來擔任召集人，還有共同副召集人，像經濟部、環境部在這裡是擔任副召集人，還有委員代表、各機關代表14人，外部專家學者、民間團體3到9人，之下還有設辦公室、執行長、副執行長、主任、副主任等等，還有分組的各種業務，這樣子有關人口的問題這件事情涉及的13個部會都來了，再看看有沒有決心而已，有決心就應該要比照這樣的方式才有辦法，而這個是解決未來臺灣一半人口的幸福。"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，不僅有決心還要有行動，在社會福利推動委員會召開的19次會議當中，跟委員報告，17到19次這幾次裡面都有把壯世代的議題列為一個討論，是不是我們會後可以把討論的重點再跟委員做詳細的說明跟報告？"],["吳委員春城：OK！好，因為我知道前面的問題啦，我真的也看得出院長的誠意，但是我們沒有找到問題的核心、沒有找到問題的核心！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們繼續努力。"],["吳委員春城：才會有64項都是用秘書彙編，所以我覺得關鍵在這裡。院長，現在倒數95天了，明年1月1號開始，臺灣進入超高齡社會，現在大家在看，包括媒體輿論，你可以看所有雜誌都在做高齡議題，大家在等待，而我們的行政院竟然在當中放棄了領導權，沒有回應，零零落落，叫各部會自己自行處理，這樣子大家怎麼會安心呢？這樣子大家怎麼有信心呢？所以院長可否承諾在行政院設立專責的壯世代政策辦公室，可否？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們沒有把它放到各部會的秘書工作，我想我們陳時中政委一直在召集這樣的工作，他已經到了一個院級的工作了。"],["吳委員春城：我知道，但是要比照像減碳辦公室這樣的編制、按照這樣的組織法來成立，你那個只是交代，你要馬兒跑，但是不給牠吃草……"],["卓院長榮泰：不會。"],["吳委員春城：只有叫他的秘書，他的秘書都累了，秘書找大家來開會宣示一下，以後大家來彙編，編就是叫他們報……"],["卓院長榮泰：不會……"],["吳委員春城：現在又只能這樣作業。"],["卓院長榮泰：我會謹記剛剛委員所說的，有想法還要有決心，還要下去行動，我跟委員講，我們的決心都是夠的。"],["吳委員春城：對，我知道。"],["卓院長榮泰：行動，或許剛開始我們在蒐集更完整的資料，但最後我們就會收斂並提出幾個重點的計畫，在……"],["吳委員春城：院長，可不可以承諾來成立這個辦公室？這個問題我已經陳述……我看周邊這個是大數據，這個涉及到這麼多問題，這是一個國安問題，這是個希望工程的問題、扶養比的問題、少子化的問題、社福要破產的問題、ESG所有這些的問題都跟這件事情有關，各部會都有問題，行政院還不扛起這個責任來？可不可以扛起？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會負擔起這個責任，因為現在……"],["吳委員春城：院長可以成立嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為現在我們在社福推動委員會當中已經有這個議題，也要經過大家再共同討論，我們是不是有需要提升、轉換或是強化相關的組織？大家來討論之後……"],["吳委員春城：院長，你是領導，我跟你講，這件事情我非常清楚了，這樣子就是在推諉了……"],["卓院長榮泰：不，我們會再向委員報告。"],["吳委員春城：我們在全民面前，我們希望看到一個有為、有承擔、面對超高齡社會能給人民承諾的，因為這件事情只有決心的問題，不是技術性的問題。"],["卓院長榮泰：我跟委員的承諾就是，我們會在現在的機制底下將它做怎樣的強化，但是終究的目的就是讓超高齡世代跟壯世代都有一個更豐富的未來……"],["吳委員春城：院長，我跟你講，那個剛才已經說過了，社會福利委員會的思維，那個就單軌，你再把這個放在這個單軌底下，就死路一條啦！保證死路一條！我們已經搞太久了啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：或者是我們國發會，它現在已經有一個人口對策的相關組織，我們可以把它做內容、功能的強化，是不是請主委來說明一下？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我跟委員報告一下，我剛剛跟陳政委有做討論，我們認為整個人口的問題都必須被探討，不是只有壯世代，從年輕人要不要生小孩一路到老，所以我們希望成立一個人口對策的辦公室，而不是只有壯世代，那我們會把壯世代列為裡面重要的一個議題，所以這個辦公室底下會有壯世代，會有老人、有青壯年。"],["吳委員春城：所以你的意思就是在國發會設立一個人口政策辦公室？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：不是國發會，這個還是陳政委在主導，我們會在陳政委領導下，從行政院的角度來做這件事。"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，日前我們討論過人口政策的時候，大概都有這樣交換意見，只是還沒有把它當作一個成熟對外發表的過程，所以我說我還要跟陳政委、社福推動委員會及國發會再做一個比較完整的規劃，我覺得推出來不是一個空的架構、空的組織，它必須要有精神、內容跟計畫期程，這樣我們才能夠對後續的工作有十足的掌握。"],["吳委員春城：我跟院長報告，現在馬上就要進入超高齡社會了，你今天在這裡不能做承諾、沒有決心，那全民都看到……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們有動作，我們有行動。"],["吳委員春城：對！這是一個決心的問題。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員，我們是有絕對的承諾面對人口的問題，那壯世代是人口問題的一部分。"],["吳委員春城：但是是非常核心的一部分，好嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["吳委員春城：非常核心，而且跟你講，這個跟高齡化、少子化是一體兩面……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，它可以擴大分母。"],["吳委員春城：掌握三分之二財富，金管會也是這樣子，這些財富都鎖在這裡，年輕人沒有未來，變成死水經濟，包括長壽經濟，這是年輕人未來最重要的產業發展，包括教育，包括文化，所有的層面、所有要談的問題的觀念，就是我們要把一場災難的銀髮海嘯變成國家發展動力，這是兩個不同的思維，你們都只是要處理銀髮海嘯而已，想要防範、圍堵它，然後什麼的……壯世代一個更積極的思維，就是變成國家發展的動力、年輕人的未來，你有這麼積極……"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我個人也不認為銀髮是海嘯，這是國家的資產。"],["吳委員春城：這是學術用詞，OK，所以院長，如果今天你沒有承諾，那麼可否在一個月之內，把你現在的全盤計畫回復讓我知道，聞香一下，讓我知道，我才能跟大家交代。"],["卓院長榮泰：人口政策的討論，我想國發會在一個月當中，一定會有一些定論。"],["吳委員春城：可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：人口政策的討論，國發會會有一個定論……"],["吳委員春城：好吧！那我一個月之內……"],["卓院長榮泰：我請主委和陳時中政委，我們討論……"],["吳委員春城：國發會或政委這邊來……讓我們繼續來……"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，謝謝委員指教。"],["主席：謝謝吳春城委員的質詢，也謝謝卓院長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第24位林俊憲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":19,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-2","speakers":["韓國瑜"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-09-27"],"gazette_id":"1137601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第2次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1137601_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}