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有請我們的院長和衛福部部長"},{"start":29.707,"end":55.193,"text":"麻煩再請左院長備詢請衛福部編委員好院長好從院長的上週的施政報告當中可以看到有非常多的兒少的相關政策顯示中央對兒少的重視那兒少議題一直也是我關心的所以今天有想跟院長討論兩個議題"},{"start":56.772,"end":83.153,"text":"一個是兒少領域工作人員的薪資跟兒少的網絡安全那院長首先想問您支持同工同酬嗎同工同酬當然是一個最基本的條件我想也是因為我相信同工要同酬事實上是普世價值也是勞動部近這幾年來去推動的職場文化但在我過去工作的領域裡邊的兒少領域"},{"start":83.7,"end":84.98,"text":"施政委員：林月琴"},{"start":106.46,"end":106.76,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":136.74,"end":163.246,"text":"防事輔導員的專業背景有社工系跟幼保系那很多時候這是在現場是我的學生那過去我在民間一直在爭取所以不知道因為在這裡我不知道可不可能就想說提出一個訴求因為他們工作一樣是辛苦防事輔導員能不能他的薪酬可以調整到跟社工夥伴是一樣的 院長"},{"start":164.258,"end":180.59,"text":"再請部長回答 但是訪視﹚輔導員目前是不是已經在3萬7甚至到4萬2出頭的這個範圍當中跟社工訪視員的起薪是相符的目前事實上是他們拿到的是3萬4報告委員 那個"},{"start":187.944,"end":188.364,"text":"我相信齁 過去在蔡"},{"start":217.669,"end":227.861,"text":"蔡英文總統任內到賴總統我相信都會非常照顧基層當然我們還是期待能夠調整到一致不會有很多差異"},{"start":229.783,"end":251.34,"text":"是的因為有這樣的差異所以我們行政院也支持我們在部裡面針對我們的一個督導跟訪視員從113年10月1號期來提高他的薪資在督導方面我們提高到4.1萬元至4.6萬元原來大概原來是3.8萬元至4.3萬元"},{"start":257.042,"end":268.509,"text":"那以社工的督導起薪4萬4千多是差異不大那在仿事輔導員方面我們提高到3.7萬元至4.2萬元原來是3.4萬至3.9萬所以這個以社工的仿事員3萬7、8這樣的是非常相近"},{"start":278.58,"end":279.801,"text":"年齡當然是一直往下降"},{"start":304.531,"end":307.453,"text":"小朋友第一次接觸網路5-10歲幼稚園階段就開始了"},{"start":324.98,"end":330.224,"text":"馬路有交通部交通局學校有教育部跟教育局可是網路世界看起來"},{"start":346.877,"end":346.937,"text":"網路成癮"},{"start":372.807,"end":373.047,"text":"李卓人"},{"start":390.88,"end":391.3,"text":"新相關的"},{"start":413.07,"end":424.138,"text":"的確就會是跟自殺風險有高度的相關我非常認同 院長一上來的時候8月份就實施了心理健康免費心理諮詢擴大到45歲這個事實上是現在"},{"start":427.981,"end":455.658,"text":"外界評價最高所以這次你在施政報告裡邊也說要把它提到56億我非常的贊成可是在網路安全當中我們除了後端的輔導以外可能要找到前端的原因所以接下來我們就來看這三個跟自殺比較高度相關的傷害首先在網路沉迷成癮這邊可以看到在沉迷12歲以下已經事實上是7%"},{"start":456.721,"end":457.682,"text":"請教一步說明一下謝謝委員關心網路成癮"},{"start":479.092,"end":487.237,"text":"對部長因為我們現在看到向衛福部他是用WHO的標準那將網路成癮視為一種精神疾病然後心理輔導那教育部的確也是用分級輔導方式處理不過"},{"start":507.449,"end":521.144,"text":"要問的是好像網路成癮成謎都是兒少的錯 如果你只做後端的輔導的話難道提供成癮平台提供成癮內容平台跟業者都沒有責任嗎"},{"start":522.449,"end":522.529,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":545.234,"end":571.292,"text":"提供平台的業者今天出現惡意的言論跟網路霸凌的話他們自己是否可以置身事外反而相較於在於最後跟自殺風險最高度相關的就是性相關的訊息外傳那從數據顯示一樣是逐年升高不過看到一線曙光就是我們去年性剝削法修法之後"},{"start":571.932,"end":589.927,"text":"的確我們設立了專責單位也加速了下架流程也請警政署成立資料庫未來進行主動比對找出潛在的受害者所以整體來看的話我們大概先有三個樣態第一個就是我們看起來只處罰所謂的行為人"},{"start":592.458,"end":617.631,"text":"目前我們的做法都是處理行為人或是輔導受害者那為什麼平台可以賺取大量的商業利益的時候卻不需要負擔市警預防的責任第二個目前在沒有專法的管理下發生各種狀況都是回到個別的法律處理這個緩不及急那第三我們的兒少網路問題今天不是第一天發生"},{"start":619.158,"end":647.203,"text":"可是我們很遺憾的目前臺灣有速發部還有NCC也有衛福部的保護師可是一個做產業發展一個做所謂的申訴一個在做處罰各做各的沒有專責的統籌單位我覺得很可惜所以院長是不是針對這三種的網路風險跟我目前管理上的肉洞不知道你有什麼樣的看法"},{"start":647.999,"end":674.086,"text":"報告委員為了防止兒少接觸這些不當的網路我們的NCC通傳會一個民間的團體有組織了一個內容防護的機構那希望能夠讓福島的網路業者自律提供防護機制但我覺得自律應該還是不夠的我們還要很多的機制加起來包括我們這些傳播的業者所以請教育部談論一下他最近跟那些傳播業者有一些進展"},{"start":674.666,"end":700.239,"text":"謝謝委員關心確實我們對於看到這個學生青少年兒少在這個非在學校的一個時間在私下或是在家庭的休假的時候那許多的這個社群的這些的網址確實他們會很容易收到一些相關的社群資料所以我們教育部目前正在洽細這個三大這個電信系統"},{"start":703.5,"end":725.258,"text":"中華電跟台灣大哥還有演傳因為我們現在看到許多父母親他們主要是這三大消費者他們同時買了一些手機年齡往下的趨勢所有這些父前的父母親我們希望透過行求父母親的同業跟業者"},{"start":726.051,"end":744.36,"text":"這一個能夠洽談希望能夠包裹式的能夠禁止這些社群網站的一個在兒童青少年的一個提這個使用在網路上的這些應該把它排除也就是說因為現在三大業者裡邊基本上也有一個社群的守門員這樣一個條款"},{"start":746.243,"end":770.666,"text":"看起來還是針對於事實上要要求家長的這個針對管理上這三個漏洞並不是沒有解方像第一個第二個漏洞有關平台的責任有國際經驗事實上是可以參考的像美國他們已經有在今年的7月已經通過了防止成癮性內容的剝削兒童法"},{"start":772.57,"end":796.213,"text":"規範了有成癮性的演算法而且避免深夜推播內容來影響睡眠甚至明定罰款那在去年呢英國也通過了所謂的網路安全法那他同時也是規範業者應該履行的職責而且要求業者對於有這樣的傷害的內容要及時刪除一樣明定罰款所以"},{"start":797.554,"end":816.22,"text":"第三個漏洞就是我們需要努力改善的因為網路上的而少可能遭受到風險跟傷害要進行管理我們台灣不是獨創因為我們在2014年的時候已經是把兒權公約國內法化那所以我們有責任來履行這個義務責任"},{"start":817.5,"end":843.353,"text":"﹚議員﹚"},{"start":843.82,"end":872.507,"text":"我相信你應該很熟悉因為其實就是現在行政院正在做的權力執行打詐計畫所以院長你同意嗎是 所以是我們的目的世界主管機關主管的機關對於這些平台業者現在有比較新的法律工具在手所以對這些不法的網站如果經過檢舉他還不處理的話目前我們的速發部是可以請業者依照這個法規要求他限制瀏覽移除"},{"start":873.672,"end":890.648,"text":"是他的廣告部分要求他在24小時裡面下架這個我就說的自律不夠還要有比較強而有力的法律的要求所以今天最後有兩個情託就希望院長可以試試看你9月16的時候我就看見書發部公告了一打詐專法來納管平台"},{"start":891.969,"end":915.394,"text":"而且未來有詐騙廣告的話可以依法24小時要下架那這真的是了不起的第一步那台灣終於對於我們的科技巨頭有了明確的規範而且不是等待他們自律或放任出了事態檢討而且這次的編列預算我相信院長有決心才會在沒宣要編這麼多經費因為打詐的確是我們國人"},{"start":916.24,"end":918.962,"text":"所以最後就是希望台灣是一個法治國家還是希望能夠針對於法律能夠"},{"start":952.648,"end":952.961,"text":"主席"}]},"會議時間":"2024-09-27T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"15:48:34 - 16:04:26","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第2次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","gazette":{"lineno":436,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（15時48分）主席，有請我們的院長和衛福部部長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢、請衛福部。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員月琴：院長好。從院長上週的施政報告當中可以看到有非常多兒少相關政策，顯示中央對兒少的重視，兒少議題也一直是我關心的，所以今天想跟院長討論兩個議題，一個是兒少領域工作人員的薪資跟兒少的網路安全。","院長，首先想問您支持同工同酬嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：同工同酬當然是一個最基本的條件。"],["林委員月琴：好，我想也是，因為我相信同工要同酬事實上是普世價值，也是勞動部近幾年來去推動的職場文化。但在我過去工作領域的兒少領域卻有很顯著的落差，他們的薪水很多時候是來自我們政府部門的發放，像社工跟訪視輔導員所執行的工作內容幾乎是一樣的，可是看起來他們的薪資所得事實上有非常大的差距，從這個表格當中可以看到102年，雖然兩個都一樣，都是三萬三，可是社工是實領三萬三，而訪視輔導人員呢？他是含雇主的勞健保跟6%的勞退，實領事實上是兩萬八。好不容易訪視人員在107年改制，領到三萬三的時候，社工已經調整到三萬四，到113年已經進入三萬四的時候，社工已經調到3萬7,765元了。訪視輔導員的專業背景有社工系跟幼保系，很多在現場的是我的學生，過去我在民間一直在爭取，在這裡我不知道可不可能，想提出一個訴求，因為他們工作一樣，一樣是辛苦，訪視輔導員的薪酬能不能調整到跟社工夥伴是一樣的，院長？"],["卓院長榮泰：再請部長回答，但是訪視輔導員目前是不是已經在三萬七，甚至到四萬二出頭的這個範圍當中，跟社工訪視員的起薪是相符的？再請部長……"],["林委員月琴：目前事實上他們拿到的是三萬四。"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，其實社工的工作當然是比較多元化，但是訪視輔導人員的壓力也是相當地大，所以在同工同酬的情況之下，我想我們當然也期待薪水能夠一致，在這個部分，有關於工作同仁的福利、待遇，行政院一直都給我們最大的支持。"],["林委員月琴：過去在蔡英文總統任內，到賴總統，我相信都會非常照顧基層，當然我們還是期待能夠調整到一致，不會有很多差異。"],["邱部長泰源：是的，因為有這樣的差異，所以行政院也支持我們在部裡面，針對督導跟訪視員，從113年10月1日起提高薪資。在督導方面，我們提高到4.1萬元至4.6萬元，原來是3.8萬元至4.3萬元，與社工的督導起薪四萬四千多差異不大。在訪視輔導員方面，我們提高到3.7萬元至4.2萬元，原來是3.4萬至3.9萬，所以這個與社工的訪視員三萬七、三萬八這樣的薪資非常相近。"],["林委員月琴：我代表這一群真的跟社工一樣辛苦的人，也謝謝院長能夠體恤到他們的辛苦。"],["邱部長泰源：我們非常感謝行政院在一方面給我們最大的支持。"],["林委員月琴：第二個議題就要來問，到底孩子在網路上安全嗎？院長知不知道我們小朋友第一次接觸網路的年齡是幾歲，還有他每天在網路上的時間有多少小時？"],["卓院長榮泰：年齡當然是一直往下降，至於時間，如果在家裡，家長沒有特別關注的時候，或者連在學校，有自由的時間，時間也一直在拉長，這對他的身心健康都不是好事情。"],["林委員月琴：對，所以從iWIN的數據當中，我們可以看到小朋友第一次接觸網路，事實上5到10歲，大概是幼稚園階段就開始了，平均一天大概8.3小時，看起來兒少不是只有使用網路，他是生活在網路。可是要問的是，這樣的環境安全嗎？現在事實上沒有專責單位在管，馬路有交通部、交通局，學校有教育部跟教育局，可是網路世界看起來像是烏托邦，沒有專責單位在管理，所以我不禁要問，到底安全嗎？因為網路世界當中，兒少遭遇的風險比我們想像得更多、更複雜，像網路成癮或沉迷、霸凌跟不實訊息，網路焦慮正對我們兒少的健康產生不同程度的傷害。院長，你怎麼看這個議題？"],["卓院長榮泰：網路成癮這個會造成他不僅跟外界人跟人之間的疏離，對自己的身心，包括眼睛、視力的影響很大，另外很可怕的是網路的霸凌，對他的心理造成的影響可能是很長時間無法磨滅的，至於其他的那些是違法的行為，我覺得我們的相關機關應該要全力遏止這個事情。"],["林委員月琴：我相信院長有很多的掌握，像這份研究是來自臺灣幾位優秀醫生，以臺灣的兒少為研究對象進行觀察，從研究結果大家就知道，性相關的訊息外傳跟成癮跟網路霸凌，的確會跟自殺風險高度相關。我非常認同院長一上來的時候，8月份就實施了心理健康免費心理諮詢擴大到45歲，這個事實上是現在外界評價最高的，所以這次你在施政報告裡面也說要把它提到56億，我非常地贊成。可是在網路安全當中，我們除了後端的輔導以外，可能也要找到前端的原因，所以接下來我們就來看這3個跟自殺比較高度相關的傷害。首先，在網路沈迷、成癮這邊可以看到，在沈迷的部分，12歲以下事實上已經是7%，12歲到17歲已經到9.6%；那成癮的話，事實上是3%。院長，你知道面對成癮、沈迷，我們的各部會怎麼做嗎？做了什麼事？"],["卓院長榮泰：請教育部說明一下。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員關心網路成癮，確實現在在學校裡面，我們也要求各地方政府在學校的輔導工作，把網路成癮跟網路霸凌相關的這些不當行為，當作我們心輔、學生輔導的一個主要工作項目。"],["林委員月琴：對，部長，因為我們現在看到像衛福部，它是用WHO的標準，將網路成癮視為一種精神疾病，然後心理輔導。教育部的確也是用分級輔導的方式處理，不過要問的是，好像網路成癮、沈迷都是兒少的錯，如果你只做後端輔導的話，難道提供成癮內容的平台跟業者都沒有責任嗎？一樣的，網路霸凌這個傷害也是逐年升高，這些數據背後不是只有心理傷害，最大的問題可能會有中輟跟逃學的問題，可是一樣的就是說，政府部門現在……像這邊看到的，大概還是幾個法律來查辦或者是輔導。同樣的，我還是有一樣的疑問，提供平台的業者，今天出現惡意的言論跟網路霸凌的話，他們自己是否可以置身事外？反而相較於最後跟自殺風險最高度相關的，就是性相關的訊息外傳，從數據顯示一樣是逐年升高，不過看到一線曙光，我們去年性剝削法修法之後，的確我們設立了專責單位，也加速了下架流程，也請警政署成立資料庫，會主動比對找出潛在的受害者。","所以整體來看的話，我們大概現在有三個樣態，第一個就是我們看起來只處罰所謂的行為人，目前我們的作法都是處理行為人或是輔導受害者，那為什麼平台可以賺取大量的商業利益，卻不需要負擔示警預防的責任？第二個，目前在沒有專法的管理下，發生各種狀況都是回到個別的法律處理，這個緩不濟急。第三，我們的兒少網路問題今天不是第一天發生，可是很遺憾的，目前臺灣有數發部，還有NCC，也有衛福部的保護司，可是一個做產業發展，一個做所謂的申訴，一個在做處罰，各做各的，沒有專責的統籌單位，我覺得很可惜。院長是不是針對這三種網路風險跟我們目前管理上的漏洞，不知道你有什麼樣的看法？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，為了防止兒少接觸這些不當的網路，我們的通傳會（NCC）也跟民間的團體組織了一個內容防護的機構，希望能夠讓輔導的網路業者自律，提供防護機制，但我覺得自律應該還是不夠的，我們還要很多的機制加起來，包括我們這些傳播的業者。請教育部談論一下，他最近跟一些傳播業者有一些進展。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員關心，確實我們看到學生、青少年、兒少非在學校的時間，私下或者在家庭休假的時候，面對許多色情的網址，他們確實很容易收到一些相關的色情資料，所以我們教育部目前正在洽繫三大電信系統，也就是中華電信、台灣大哥大，還有遠傳，因為我們現在看到許多父母親，他們主要是這三大業者的消費者，同時也買了一些手機，年齡也有往下的趨勢，對於所有這些付錢的父母親，我們透過尋求父母親的同意，也跟業者洽談，希望能夠包裹式地禁止這些兒童、青少年使用色情網站，應該把他排除。也就是說，因為現在在三大業者裡，基本上也有色情守門員這樣的一個條款……"],["林委員月琴：看起來還是針對……事實上還是要要求家長的……針對管理上這三個漏洞並不是沒有解方，像第一個、第二個漏洞，有關平台的責任，國際經驗事實上是可以參考的，像美國已經在今年7月通過了防止成癮性內容的剝削兒童法，規範了有成癮性的演算法，而且避免深夜推播內容來影響睡眠，甚至明定罰鍰；去年英國也通過了所謂的網路安全法，它同時也規範業者應該履行的職責，而且要求業者對於有這樣傷害的內容要即時刪除，一樣有明定罰鍰。","第三個漏洞就是我們需要努力改善的，因為網路上兒少可能遭受到的風險跟傷害要進行管理。我們臺灣不是獨創，因為我們在2014年的時候已經把兒權公約國內法化，所以我們有責任來履行這個義務，責任。兒權公約第25號意見書本來就希望……我們如果是兒權公約國家的話，應該要有個專責的單位，它說要有一個專責的政府單位，而這個專責的政府單位要跟學校、資通訊部門合作，所以也希望院長在納管平台即時下架跟國家級的教育政策……，我相信你應該很熟悉，因為這其實就是現在行政院正在做的，全力執行打詐計畫，所以院長同意嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，所以我們的目的事業主管機關對於這些平台業者，現在有比較新的法律工具在手，對於這些不法的網站，如果經過檢舉它還不處理的話，目前我們數發部可以請業者依照這個法規，要求它限制瀏覽、移除，甚至在廣告的部分，要求要在24小時裡面下架，這就是我說的自律不夠，還要有比較強而有力的法律要求。"],["林委員月琴：對，所以今天最後我有兩個請託就是希望院長可以思考，在9月16日的時候我就看見數發部的公告了，依打詐專法來納管平台。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["林委員月琴：而且未來有詐騙廣告的話，可以依法在24小時內下架，這真的是了不起的第一步，臺灣終於對於我們的科技巨頭有了明確的規範，而且不是等待他們自律或放任出了事才檢討。這次編列的預算，我相信院長有決心才會在媒宣編這麼多經費，因為打詐的確是我們國人很大的痛。也就是說，今天詐騙事實上是國人的問題，所以編了這樣的經費、預算，就是你有要打詐的決心。院長可不可以同意比照打詐，內容平台應該納管，然後明定主管機關？這是我的第一個訴求。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，在打詐的新法當中，我們會把這些納進去，因為我們對平台業者有比較強而有力的拘束力。"],["林委員月琴：最後就是，臺灣是個法治國家，還是希望能夠針對法律立專法。"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["林委員月琴：院長，未來我還是希望我們一起來做孩子最有力的後盾，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員指教。"],["主席：謝謝林月琴委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長跟相關部會首長的備詢。","報告院會，我們現在休息10分鐘，休息之後我們繼續進行質詢，現在休息。","休息（16時4分）","繼續開會（16時15分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":104,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-2","speakers":["韓國瑜","蔡其昌","陳雪生","吳春城","林俊憲","萬美玲","鍾佳濱","翁曉玲","林月琴","呂玉玲","王正旭","丁學忠"],"page_start":21,"meetingDate":["2024-09-27"],"gazette_id":"1137601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137601_00002","1137601_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第2次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1137601_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}