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請人事長委員早人事長早"},{"start":23.683,"end":51.813,"text":"人事總署的書面報告也好你剛剛口頭報告也好不斷地在強調政府在推動AI特別是人事總署所扮演的角色今年7月30號的時候部會首長的AI公視營是不是人事總署辦的報告委員是我們人事總署跟數位發展部合辦這個部會首長AI公視營總共有幾個人參加"},{"start":54.068,"end":58.655,"text":"所有部會首長除了兩位請假以外其他都有參加你有參加嗎"},{"start":63.843,"end":84.709,"text":"在這個部會首長AI共識營,賴清德總統說要打造台灣成為智慧國家嗎?你還記得吧?當然,是。這是你們辦的嗎?是。因為我喜歡務實,我不喜歡務虛。比如說我們的政府講一堆口號,現實上是有弱勢,恐怕問題都很大。"},{"start":85.871,"end":94.096,"text":"我們的賴總統說要打造台灣成為智慧國家他具體的講有三個步驟要先做哪三個步驟第一個我覺得最重要的是人才人才是最重要那第二個呢"},{"start":104.298,"end":131.597,"text":"再來就是一些法規面的一個成就第二個是法規阿第三個呢第三個是基礎環境的建構比如像泰德之類的來賴總統阿講的三大步驟阿跟你剛剛報告的內容阿顯然有些錯誤阿總統在講話要仔細聽阿那要不然你辦這個AI首長共事員幹嘛總統自此都沒有仔細聽喔這麼重要的指示欸"},{"start":132.796,"end":150.711,"text":"我們的總統從上而下告訴所有的部會首長打造台灣成為智慧國家的三個步驟我剛簡單一問你顯然沒有在聽嘛阿沒有在聽花納稅的錢辦這個部會首長欸阿貢士你是在做什麼做秀嗎做秀嗎昨天指示的內容你們大家都有去參加"},{"start":161.65,"end":190.504,"text":"沒有一個放在心裡面啊還是總統這樣指示是錯的來請教人事長我這裡跟委員報告一下總統的指示到各個部會我們是要把他轉化成委員剛來講的要務實不要務虛所以我剛來講的所以你覺得總統講這三大步驟是不是務虛他講的是從另外一個角度來講是從另外一個角度嗎所以你的角度跟總統的角度不太一樣是嗎"},{"start":191.516,"end":208.311,"text":"完全一樣只是完全一樣完全一樣好沒有關係啦是不是完全一樣有聽尋答人心裡都有一把尺第二個到目前為止我們花了這麼多的公務預算花了這麼多的精神喊了這麼多的口號人事總處也一直在推AI嘛"},{"start":210.458,"end":226.335,"text":"以具體的來講導入AI以後效率提升了多少效率提升了多少大概兩個層次一個是公務處理的時間速度一個是人力的節省以這兩個指標來講目前具體的成效如何"},{"start":228.113,"end":246.471,"text":"我跟委員報告因為人事總處主要的服務的對象是屬於內部單位在行政效力的提升上面大概可以達到大概三到四成我舉一個例子就是像我們上一年開發了一個人事法規生存式的一個查詢"},{"start":248.757,"end":271.878,"text":"那原來的公務同仁人事人員他要去查這個資料有時候要翻了很多的資料還有法律跟案例這個人事法規生成AI查詢系統花多少錢?多少?好可不可以開放給一般民眾使用?"},{"start":273.046,"end":274.588,"text":"因為我看你們開發這個系統人事法規很複雜嘛"},{"start":297.25,"end":319.493,"text":"用AI去查我覺得這是一個正確的方向嘛但做得好不好總是要經過檢證嘛所以我就上你們人事總處的網站去看啊我找了半天了以後原來只有在處理人事法規的同仁可以用嘛封閉的系統只有人事法規的人可以用而那其他關心人事法規的人為什麼不能用"},{"start":320.799,"end":349.406,"text":"既然是花納稅人的錢開發的系統AI做有他的界限最後都要人做最後的判斷這個我都了解但既然已經花了納稅人的錢下去做為什麼不開放給一般的人都可以用我很好奇我也可以上去用啊我對這件事情有興趣我也可以上去用啊那用完了以後你們花了納稅人的錢做出來的系統能不能用結果好不好"},{"start":350.799,"end":379.896,"text":"大家一起來檢偵一起來修改嘛所以你剛講了雖然是法規生成式的AI查詢系統我覺得非常好啊可以開放給一般人使用嗎我跟委員報告一下因為考慮到整個使用族群還有資訊安全的考量委員所提的所以提一下這跟資訊安全有什麼關係有有有因為我在落地執行的時候我很多的法規事實上現在我在查的是法規又不是個人"},{"start":380.663,"end":409.489,"text":"如果是法規我們現在還有其他的Q&A我們會有整理人事法規在網站上Q&A就不是AI嘛我覺得重點是要滿足使用者的需求不是為了AI而AI啊對啊我不可以是使用者喔可以使用者啦問題是我必須盡量來滿足使用者的需求對嘛所以你所界定的使用者只有在處理人事法規的相關的人員嘛"},{"start":410.987,"end":438.749,"text":"阿對於我們公務體系的人事法規有疑問有興趣的人為什麼不能用這就是我的問題啦這 這個問題喔我想我們大概分兩個階段啦第一個階段就是來沒關係啦我時間的關係我也不給你拖啦請你回去審慎人言議好隨時可以開放給一般的人使用好 OK可以嗎可以可以好我們繼續往下看喔"},{"start":440.592,"end":451.239,"text":"光電的弊案 全民深惡痛絕光電的弊案裡面 結果呢臺南七股 綠洋光電弊案我有經濟部的官員 通風報信違法核發電籌許可結果大家後來發現 他是模範公務員他是模範公務員2022年的模範公務員"},{"start":469.218,"end":489.496,"text":"不知廉潔至此公正執法違背法令迎合不肖的光電業者助紂為虐哇 這個用詞重喔這個用詞非常的重喔對於這樣子的一個模範公務員來 人事行政總處現在的態度是什麼要不要撤銷獎項追回獎金"},{"start":491.016,"end":516.243,"text":"報告委員那個林文信先生我們已經接到經濟部的通知在今年的9月4號調整為9道檢認失職等待由降下來第二個就是我們目前還要等法院的判決以後這一些他得了獎項還有獎金還有他領的這一些全部都會撤回所以要等到什麼時候"},{"start":517.103,"end":525.227,"text":"有相關的疑慮還沒有確定之前先降等至於說模範公務員的部分要等到三省確定才要處理你的態度是不是這樣"},{"start":542.363,"end":543.284,"text":"我這樣講好了啦 這樣等"},{"start":558.291,"end":573.599,"text":"的標準撤銷優秀公務員的標準你們人事行政總處自己去想清楚啦自己去想清楚啦可以這樣等但不能撤銷模範公務員這個道理是什麼可能請人事長再回去考慮一下"},{"start":574.079,"end":602.772,"text":"可以這項謀犯公務只是timing的問題最重要是timing的問題沒有關係啦你還沒有判決界定大家都在看嘛我們就靜靜的等嘛我已經把問題提出來了嘛要怎麼處理權力在你們手上嘛我也沒有辦法逼你怎麼處理嘛我只是提醒你這件事啦權力在你手上嘛看你什麼時候要處理嘛上一次在這邊請教你的軍公教條新要有基層的代表"},{"start":603.712,"end":633.067,"text":"要有法制化你上次承諾今年一定會把法制化完成你還記得吧是是嘛好那就很怪喔因為你上次跟我講說今年年底以前要完成可是我看到你今天的報告一個字也沒提耶是準備要跳票了嗎不會跳票我們等一下還是會報告不會跳票不會所以今年年底以前可以完成法制化"},{"start":635.914,"end":637.396,"text":"會送到來?"},{"start":637.396,"end":639.078,"text":"一定會送上來 年底以前會送來?"},{"start":639.078,"end":654.115,"text":"會送到來另外一個我要幫一些比較辛苦基層的測量助理跟人事長請命他們40年沒有調整年功強了今年3月跟我們黨團成情"},{"start":656.893,"end":685.778,"text":"讓我們也按照我們政府的體制跟相關的部會找來研議內政部會議通過地政測量人員薪資的調整這個是今年5月發生的事情結果條也沒有條多少40年沒有條他們要求也很卑微也很合理從2000到5000塊40年條漲3000塊我老實講看了讓人覺得很心酸我們也找了內政部了"},{"start":686.738,"end":705.126,"text":"然後但我們現在的進度是說7月9號內政部含爆薪資調整方案那個人總現在處理的進度是怎麼樣我跟委員報告一下7月9號內政部含爆行政院之後我們現在在會相關的機關那還要會多久"},{"start":705.953,"end":733.358,"text":"我們會盡力去催看10月上旬就要出來10月上旬嘛今天是9月30號嘛所以你講的10月上旬應該是10月15號以前吧對對對因為這些齁是基層的同仁啊我知道相對剝奪感很重啊他們幹到台鐵的局長啊變成國營事業的董事長一口氣調多少五萬多塊他40天沒調啊兩千到五千塊拜託"},{"start":735.802,"end":753.948,"text":"人事長江心比心幫我們基層的同仁做愈快一點可以嗎可以我這裡10月15號以前喔可以喔可以喔好好謝謝好謝謝黃董昭謝謝蘇委人事長那麼由於"}]},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:06:38 - 09:19:11","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院人事行政總處人事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":113,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時6分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請人事長。"],["主席：請人事長。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員早。"],["黃委員國昌：人事長早。人事總處的書面報告也好，或你剛剛的口頭報告也好，不斷在強調政府在推動AI，特別是人事總處所扮演的角色。今年7月30號的時候，部會首長的AI共識營是不是人事總處辦的？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：報告委員，是人事總處跟數位發展部合辦的。"],["黃委員國昌：部會首長AI共識營總共有幾個人參加？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：所有部會首長，除了兩位請假以外，其餘都有參加。"],["黃委員國昌：你有沒有參加？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我有。"],["黃委員國昌：你有參加嘛！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對。"],["黃委員國昌：在這個部會首長AI共識營，賴清德總統說要打造臺灣成為智慧國家，你還記得吧？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：當然，是。"],["黃委員國昌：這是你們辦的嘛！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是。"],["黃委員國昌：OK，因為我喜歡務實，我不喜歡務虛，有時候政府講一堆口號，現實上是不是有落實，恐怕問題都很大啊！我們的賴總統說要打造臺灣成為智慧國家，他具體講有三個步驟要先做，哪三個步驟？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：第一個，我覺得最重要的是人才，人才還是最重要。"],["黃委員國昌：第二個呢？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：再來就是一些法規面的成就。"],["黃委員國昌：第二個是法規，第三個呢？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：第三個是基礎環境的建構，譬如像TAIDE之類的。"],["黃委員國昌：賴總統講的三大步驟跟你剛剛報告的內容顯然有些出入，總統講的話要仔細聽喔！要不然你辦這個AI首長共識營幹嘛？總統致詞都沒有仔細聽喔！這麼重要的指示耶！我們的總統從上而下，告訴所有的部會首長，打造臺灣成為智慧國家的三個步驟，我剛剛簡單一問，你顯然沒有在聽嘛！沒有在聽，花納稅人的錢辦這個部會首長AI共識營是在做什麼？作秀嗎？總統指示的內容，你們大家都有去參加，沒有一個人放在心裡面啊！還是總統這樣指示是錯的？請教人事長。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我這裡跟委員報告一下，總統的指示到各個部會，我們是要把它轉化成委員剛才講的，要務實，不要務虛……"],["黃委員國昌：是。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：所以我剛才講的……"],["黃委員國昌：所以你覺得總統講這三大步驟是不是務虛？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：他講的是從另外一個角度來講。"],["黃委員國昌：是從另外一個角度嘛！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你的角度跟總統的角度不太一樣，是嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：完全一樣，只是……"],["黃委員國昌：完全一樣？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是，完全一樣。"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒有關係，是不是完全一樣，有聽詢答的人心裡都有一把尺。第二個，到目前為止，我們花了這麼多的公務預算，花了這麼多的精神，喊了這麼多的口號，人事總處也一直在推AI。具體來講，導入AI以後，效率提升了多少？效率提升了多少大概兩個層次，一個是公務處理的時間速度；一個是人力的節省，以這兩個指標來講，目前具體的成效如何？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員報告，因為人事總處主要服務的對象是屬於內部單位，我們在行政效率的提升上面大概可以達到三到四成。我舉一個例子，像我們上一年開發的一個人事法規生成式的查詢系統。"],["黃委員國昌：非常好。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：原來的公務同仁、人事人員要查資料，有時候要翻很多的資料，還有法律跟案例。"],["黃委員國昌：這個人事法規生成式AI查詢系統花了多少錢？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：大概450萬左右。"],["黃委員國昌：好，可不可以開放給一般民眾使用？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員報告一下，我們這一個系統是屬於落地的系統，不是線上的系統，因為它的使用族群是限定人事人員……"],["黃委員國昌：這個就是我的問題，因為我看你們開發這個系統，人事法規很複雜，用AI去查，我覺得這是一個正確的方向，但做得好不好總是要經過檢證，所以我就上你們人事總處的網站去看，我找了半天，原來只有在處理人事法規的同仁可以用，這是封閉的系統，只有處理人事法規的人可以用，其他關心人事法規的人為什麼不能用？既然是花納稅人的錢開發的系統，AI做有它的界限，最後都要人做最後的判斷，這個我都了解，但既然已經花了納稅人的錢下去做，為什麼不開放給一般的人都可以用？我很好奇，我也可以上去用啊！我對這件事情有興趣，我也可以上去用啊！你們花了納稅人的錢，做出來的系統能不能用，用完了以後，結果好不好，大家一起來檢證、一起來修改嘛！所以你剛剛講人事法規生成式的AI查詢系統，我覺得非常好啊，可以開放給一般人使用嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員報告一下，因為考慮到整個使用族群還有資訊安全的考量，委員所提的問題……"],["黃委員國昌：先停一下，這跟資訊安全有什麼關係？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：有，因為在落地執行的時候，很多的法規事實上……"],["黃委員國昌：現在我在查的是法規，又不是個人。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：如果是法規，我們現在還有其他的Q&A，我們有整理人事法規放在網站上。"],["黃委員國昌：Q&A就不是AI嘛！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我覺得重點是要滿足使用者的需求，不是為了AI而AI。"],["黃委員國昌：對啊！我不可以是使用者喔？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：可以是使用者，問題是我必須儘量來滿足使用者的需求……"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！所以你所建立的使用者，是只有在處理人事法規的相關人員，對於我們公務體系的人事法規有疑問、有興趣的人，為什麼不能用？這就是我的問題。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這個問題，我想我們大概分兩個階段，第一個階段就是來……"],["黃委員國昌：沒關係啦，時間的關係，我也不給你拖，請你回去審慎地研議什麼時候可以開放給一般的人使用。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好，OK。"],["黃委員國昌：可以嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：可以。"],["黃委員國昌：好，我們繼續往下看，光電的弊案全民深惡痛絕，結果臺南七股力暘光電的弊案，有經濟部的官員通風報信，違法核發電籌許可，結果大家赫然發現他是2022年的模範公務員，不知廉潔自持、公正執法，違背法令，迎合不肖的光電業者，助紂為虐，哇！這個用詞之重，這個用詞非常的重喔！對於這樣子的一個模範公務員，人事行政總處現在的態度是什麼？要不要撤銷獎項、追回獎金？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：報告委員，我們已經接到經濟部的通知，林文信先生在今年9月4號調整為9到簡任10職等，降調。第二個，我們目前還要等法院判決以後，這一些他得的獎項、獎金，還有他領的這一些，全部都會撤回。"],["黃委員國昌：所以要等到什麼時候？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：法院要判決確定，不然我……"],["黃委員國昌：等三審確定，是嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：基本上是要這樣。"],["黃委員國昌：那現在把他降等的理由是什麼？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：降等就是在有相關的疑慮還沒有確定之前，先調整職務。"],["黃委員國昌：有相關的疑慮還沒有確定之前先降等？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是。"],["黃委員國昌：至於模範公務員的部分要等到三審確定才要處理，你的態度是不是這樣？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：目前我是覺得還要從當事人權益的保障來看，這麼重大的事情，你要撤銷一個人的榮譽，坦白講，要審慎一點。"],["黃委員國昌：我這樣講好了，降等的標準、撤銷優秀公務員的標準，你們人事行政總處自己去想清楚，可以降等，但不能撤銷模範公務員，這個道理是什麼？請人事長再回去考慮一下。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：可以撤銷模範公務員，只是timing的問題，最重要是timing的問題。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係啦！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：還沒有判決確定，你……"],["黃委員國昌：大家都在看，我們就靜靜的等，我已經把問題提出來了，要怎麼處理，權力在你們手上，我也沒有辦法逼你怎麼處理，我只是提醒你這件事，權力在你手上，看你什麼時候要處理。上一次在這邊請教你的，軍公教調薪要有基層的代表、要法制化，你上次承諾今年一定會把法制化完成，你還記得嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是。"],["黃委員國昌：是嘛，好，那就很怪喔！因為你上次跟我說今年年底以前要完成，可是我看你今天的報告一個字也沒提，是準備要跳票了嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：不會跳票，我們等一下還是會報告。"],["黃委員國昌：不會跳票？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：不會。"],["黃委員國昌：所以今年年底以前可以完成法制化？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們會送到大院。"],["黃委員國昌：會送過來？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：一定會送上來。"],["黃委員國昌：年底以前會送來？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：會，會送來。"],["黃委員國昌：OK。另外一個，我要幫一些比較辛苦、基層的測量助理跟人事長請命，他們40年沒有調整年功餉了，今年3月跟我們黨團陳情，我們也按照政府的體制跟相關的部會研議，內政部會議也通過了地政測量人員薪資的調整，這個是今年5月發生的事情，結果調也沒有調多少，40年沒有調，他們的要求很卑微也很合理，從2,000調到5,000塊，40年來只調漲3,000塊，我老實講，看了讓人覺得很心酸，我們也找了內政部，現在的進度是內政部7月9號函報薪資調整方案，人總現在處理的進度是怎麼樣？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員報告一下，7月9號內政部函報行政院之後，我們現在在會相關的機關。"],["黃委員國昌：還要會多久？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們會盡力去催，看能不能10月上旬就出來。"],["黃委員國昌：10月上旬？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對，10月上旬，因為今天9月30……"],["黃委員國昌：今天是9月30號嘛！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你講的10月上旬，應該是10月15號以前吧？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對。"],["黃委員國昌：因為這些是基層的同仁。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我知道。"],["黃委員國昌：相對剝奪感很重，他們看到臺鐵的局長變成國營事業的董事長，一口氣調多少？五萬多塊，他們40年沒調了，只從2,000調到5,000塊，拜託人事長將心比心，幫我們基層的同仁作業快一點，可以嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：可以，我這裡也跟……"],["黃委員國昌：10月15號以前，可以喔？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃總召、謝謝蘇人事長。","由於議事錄先前已經宣讀完畢，尚未確定，現在我們先確定議事錄。請問各位，上次會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏？（無）沒有，好，議事錄確定。","接下來，我們請羅委員智強質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":334,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-2","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","羅智強","林思銘","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","傅崐萁","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","吳宗憲","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴士葆","楊瓊瓔","黃健豪","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","謝龍介","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":277,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院人事行政總處人事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137801_00011"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}