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這三個學門到底有沒有要做調整的方向沒有 我們這是一個誤會 我們後來已經發出澄清的說明也非常清楚的所以我確認學門名稱沒有調整 領域沒有調整沒有調整"},{"start":82.679,"end":107.498,"text":"人員沒有調整 計劃沒有調整 都沒有調整主委增加輔會減少那為什麼會有這樣的一個空穴來風主委你會不會認為如果說我也很希望跟我們國科會站在一起啊如果說沒有調整主委剛剛連說4個沒有那空穴來風是什麼原因還有超過500人以上的這個學界大家連署"},{"start":109.465,"end":137.967,"text":"本來無疑是合觸了塵埃,這個塵埃是怎樣造成的?可能是在我們國科委內部會議討論的時候我們的自然處是因為這個三個學門我們是持續在發展那業務量非常龐大有些計畫主持人原來是分散在各個其他學門那紛紛到這個地方來提計畫所以本來是在想說是不是有機會也讓其他的處"},{"start":139.048,"end":157.851,"text":"的這個行政工作也能夠來協助只是在討論這個可能性而已並沒有要縮減學門的計畫並沒有要縮減經費可能因為內部的討論還沒有對外溝通的時候就已經傳出去了那傳出去以後大家可能是"},{"start":158.812,"end":159.192,"text":"主委,分析相信"},{"start":187.802,"end":188.225,"text":"永續這個課題不應該被"},{"start":191.527,"end":221.049,"text":"對嗎?"},{"start":221.229,"end":231.826,"text":"您這邊也上任了到目前為止我想請教這四項核心重點目前推動的成果如何?"},{"start":236.022,"end":263.14,"text":"國科會在上游的基礎科研佈局我們投入非常高減碳潛力的前瞻科研的研發這是國科會的任務我們也協助經濟部在支持中下游產業所需的減碳創新技術研發與輔導中小企業進齡轉型這個我們都是國科會在協助我先請教一下四項核心重點哪四項"},{"start":270.437,"end":274.505,"text":"主委,您不清楚事項核心重點嗎?"},{"start":276.499,"end":297.682,"text":"我本席手上有資料啦我這個是我們去年2023年4月6號行政院的報告那其中方案裡面四項重點以人為本 以中為史 佈局未來 筆尖國際"},{"start":300.488,"end":316.884,"text":"那沒關係我不是要做作文比賽不是要考文字但本席比較想要知道的是既然這個計畫你後面的結語是每年投入150億要做近鄰科技發展滾動式檢討那滾動式檢討所以說4年的計畫2023到2026總共投入600億"},{"start":323.527,"end":348.465,"text":"那本席或者說國人總是希望現在已經一年過去了嘛總是我們希望能夠看到一些成果你對這四項核心發展的重點方向努力為何但到目前為止本席跟我們辦公室的同仁去找資料還是去年這一份主委能不能滾動的還是說有什麼樣的一個業務的一個成果要讓國人知道"},{"start":349.258,"end":349.738,"text":"主委 我的建議啦"},{"start":378.07,"end":378.17,"text":"主委"},{"start":403.234,"end":405.919,"text":"主委,我再請教每年150億不是全都國科會編列預算嗎?"},{"start":415.544,"end":438.893,"text":"不是全部國科也對那哪一個部會最大宗經濟部最多最大宗經濟部主要做的是什麼能源的議題是能源本席另外再來請教就是說我們現在AI人工智慧基本法也公告了兩個月的時間到9月15號截止這個意見的交流那預計10月底會報行政院這個時間沒有問題"},{"start":442.383,"end":467.383,"text":"目前還是按照這個時程在進行我們國會已經通過我們的法規會的審查是那修正意見我們也都融進來了好那這一次兩個月的一個公告時間最多人疑慮的重點或是關心的方向是哪一個部分兩邊都有第一個就是產業界在擔心我們會不會採用像歐盟這樣非常嚴格的的這個懲罰的方式那我們的人權團體"},{"start":468.664,"end":469.765,"text":"我看了一下18條的人工智慧基本法"},{"start":485.299,"end":503.892,"text":"他又是一個概略性等於是說宣誓性的作用也沒有相關法則的部分我們同時在進行的就是我們各部會的作用法的定定是那現在我們更密集跟數位發展部在討論所以10月報行政院基本法"},{"start":504.372,"end":520.681,"text":"那相關的配套也會一起出來?相關配套也會說明,沒有錯,也會一起出來,是不是?不一定,因為最後的這個法案的訂定都還是要送到立法院來審查本席的意思是說,因為我們現在大家都希望能夠加速嘛"},{"start":520.981,"end":543.759,"text":"尤其是全世界各國大家都在做AI那AI部分就要有一個指引至少告訴我們國內所有的民眾到底我們怎麼樣在AI產業裡面有哪些是法律不允許哪些是我們鼓勵大家來做所以基本法只是一個最基本的那後續您剛有提到兩個方向產業界會擔心是不是限縮太多"},{"start":544.58,"end":567.302,"text":"人權團體會擔心保障太少簡單講就是這樣嘛對不對那所以10月你們要國科會要報行政院要行政院院會通過的時候是只有基本法還是聯同配套會一起讓國人更加了解我們配套會說明那各部會的相關的這個作用法就是主則的部會我們也會也會把它訂出來訂出來以後相關的"},{"start":569.343,"end":596.63,"text":"需要保障人權的會財作用法會很明確的會訂定那我們基本法一定要先行就像委員所提到的不然所以基本法10月理想順利行政院院會通過之後這個會期我們可以來審查我期望如此謝謝對本席也期望嘛因為從上個會期我就已經提過本席或是我們葛如軍委員幾個委員也都有我們的修法版本嘛我們希望是行政院版本趕快過來我們可以一起討論嘛是謝謝那其中"},{"start":597.625,"end":610.681,"text":"大家也提到AI就是所謂的這個超級電腦算力或相關的一個部分我們現在看到說連我們國科會下的這個算力都已經從原本的這個17名掉到106名了"},{"start":617.88,"end":641.31,"text":"我們現在正在積極佈建就是上個會期這個是事實我也跟委員報告過我們現在正在蓋新的Data Center那主機的裝置也在積極的進行當中那我們可不可以預想因為現在106名是事實我絕對希望我們都是名列前茅但是這個如果說是客觀的事實的話各國也都在發展各國也都在佈建"},{"start":642.17,"end":645.373,"text":"那我們可不可以請教你未來你現在在部件這所謂超級電腦預計什麼時候可以完成?"},{"start":648.291,"end":670.39,"text":"我們在明年會先完成在南部科學園區就會那我們預計我們的算力可以提升到什麼名次在未來的幾年之內我們希望能夠提升到280希望能夠進到大概全世界至少在前30名其實我覺得重點在於維持"},{"start":674.053,"end":694.66,"text":"主委您能夠認同嗎?這個是跟國際比較。算力只有更多,沒有最好只有更好。那當我們現在我們認為是說我們在佈建這個超級電腦下一代的時候,各國也在佈建。那所以說會不會我們明年後年出來之後,也許我們剛剛講的,你的這樣的一個算力已經算很好了。"},{"start":695.02,"end":695.14,"text":"我先開始"},{"start":715.185,"end":741.307,"text":"有人提評估,因為發展AI的消耗能源極大,2028年用電要成長到8倍,所以要注意能源穩定的供應。主委會不會擔心能源供應的問題?我們經濟部很努力,我相信可以...你們經濟部,你什麼時候管到經濟部去?我是他們很努力,他們很努力,那我相信他們可以讓我們沒有這個問題。所以你不會擔心我們有能源配比的問題?"},{"start":742.489,"end":768.29,"text":"我們當然都會擔心但是我相信大家會努力我都相信公務員會努力啊但重點是上面的政策的問題啊那我們現在在講我拉回來第一題啊淨零碳排我們是希望能夠推動淨零嘛你也說經濟部投入最多150億裡面經濟部占大中那您知道在2028年的時候經濟部提供的即便是能源供給無餘經濟部提供超過80%是什麼樣的發電嗎"},{"start":773.133,"end":780.499,"text":"現在正在努力要開拓綠能我知道但是到2028年推估您知道超過80%是什麼樣的發電嗎?經濟部的業務不便回答主委這是佛地魔是不是?"},{"start":791.633,"end":802.75,"text":"火力發電超過80%這不大家都知道的嗎?連民進黨政府之前的前總統蔡英文2025年淨零碳牌也講啦2025希望廢核家園20 30 50 20再生能源30燃氣發電50燃煤發電"},{"start":807.749,"end":811.191,"text":"道歉我修正,30燃煤發電50燃氣發電這是他講的啊所以蔡英文總統之前就講過說超過80是火力發電啊這有很難講嗎因為已經超過30秒了齁那個是不是後續"},{"start":823.717,"end":825.998,"text":"孟楷委員已經超過了不只30秒了,那個國科會會支持好不好"},{"start":843.764,"end":844.125,"text":"請萬美玲委員質詢"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:10:00+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T09:10:01+08:00","text":"主席謝謝，麻煩請吳主委。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-09-30T09:10:01+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T09:10:02+08:00","text":"有請主委。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2024-09-30T09:10:02+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T09:10:03+08:00","text":"洪委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:10:03+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T09:10:04+08:00","text":"吳主委好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:10:02.170000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:10:37.458000+08:00","text":"吳主委，今天召委排的這個題目非常有意義，大家看到兩個禮拜前，學界有500人連署兩個訴求，呼籲國科會要重視永續發展的跨域研究，其中有三個學門的發展方向，超過500名學者認為是不是跟賴總統所推動的國家希望工程背道而馳，也批評國科會有黑箱操作，本席剛剛特別有看了你的專案報告，不過我還是再給你一個機會好好地來說明一下，因為現在學界批評這是實問虛答。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2024-09-30T09:10:41.455000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:11:06.830000+08:00","text":"當然沒有虛答，我剛剛已經報告得很清楚，我們對於永續發展是非常重視的，所以國科會歷年來編列在相關永續的經費是逐年增加，特別是我們國科會內部的永續學門現在也累積了非常多原來在各個不同領域的教授，也集合到這個學門裡面來，大家可以做跨領域的研究，這是一個非常好的現象。","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:11:06.930000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:11:11.413000+08:00","text":"我現在請教的是這三個學門到底有沒有要做調整的方向？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2024-09-30T09:11:11.433000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:11:18.136000+08:00","text":"沒有，這是一個誤會，我們後來已經發出澄清說明，也非常清楚地……","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:11:18.397000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:11:21.298000+08:00","text":"所以我確認一下，學門名稱沒有調整、領域沒有調整？","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2024-09-30T09:11:21.318000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:11:21.718000+08:00","text":"沒有調整。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:11:22.679000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:11:24.020000+08:00","text":"人員沒有調整？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2024-09-30T09:11:24.020000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T09:11:25.020000+08:00","text":"沒有調整。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:11:25.020000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T09:11:26.020000+08:00","text":"計畫沒有調整？","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2024-09-30T09:11:25.181000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:11:25.581000+08:00","text":"沒有調整。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:11:25.942000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:11:26.482000+08:00","text":"都沒有調整。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2024-09-30T09:11:27.022000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:11:27.883000+08:00","text":"只會增加不會減少。","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:11:28.443000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:11:32.346000+08:00","text":"是，那為什麼會有這樣的空穴來風？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2024-09-30T09:11:32.346000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T09:11:33.346000+08:00","text":"我們原來……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:11:32.346000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:11:43.094000+08:00","text":"主委，我也很希望跟我們國科會站在一起，如果說沒有調整，主委剛剛連說四個沒有，那空穴來風是什麼原因？","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:11:43.595000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:11:53.108000+08:00","text":"還有超過500人以上的學界人士連署，本來無一物，何處惹塵埃，這個塵埃是怎麼造成的？","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2024-09-30T09:11:54.009000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:12:37.831000+08:00","text":"可能是在我們國科會內部會議討論的時候，我們的自然處……因為這三個學門是持續在發展，業務量非常龐大，有些計畫主持人原本是分散在各個其他學門，紛紛到這個地方來提計畫，所以本來是在想是不是有機會也讓其他處的行政工作也能夠來協助，只是在討論這個可能性而已，並沒有要縮減學門的計畫，並沒有要縮減經費，可能是在內部討論還沒有對外溝通的時候，就已經傳出去了，傳出去以後，大家可能以為我們是要減少永續學門的預算經費等等，或是要改變他們現在計畫執行的狀態，所以他們在還沒有跟我們求證的時候就已經在連署，我也覺得這是有點誤會，這應該是誤會。","quality":0.685},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:12:37.831000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T09:12:38.831000+08:00","text":"所以主委覺得很冤枉？","quality":0.222},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2024-09-30T09:12:38.831000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T09:12:39.831000+08:00","text":"也不算冤枉，因為大家是關心這個學門的發展，我也是非常……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:12:39.152000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:13:08.205000+08:00","text":"主委，本席相信，永續這個課題不應該被抹滅，因為這是顯學嘛。","quality":0.48},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2024-09-30T09:13:08.205000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T09:13:16.461000+08:00","text":"當然不會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:13:16.461000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T09:13:24.717000+08:00","text":"在全世界、國際大家都在做這個顯學，淨零碳排、永續環境，以及讓我們下一代、這一代能夠有更好的環境，這本來就是大家都在推動的方向嘛。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2024-09-30T09:13:24.717000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T09:13:32.973000+08:00","text":"非常認同。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:13:32.973000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T09:13:41.229000+08:00","text":"我們有看到國科會有一個淨零科技方案，淨零科技方案從去年提出來到2026年，至少這4年的期間會希望往2050淨零碳排的方向來走，對不對？是。","quality":0.018},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:13:41.229000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:13:51.806000+08:00","text":"您這邊也上任了一段時間，到目前為止，我想請教這四項核心重點，目前推動的成果如何？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2024-09-30T09:13:56.022000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:14:19.857000+08:00","text":"國科會在上游的基礎科研布局，我們投入非常高減碳潛力的前瞻科研研發，這是國科會的任務，我們也協助經濟部在支持中下游產業所需的減碳創新技術研發與輔導中小企業淨零轉型，這個都是國科會在協助。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:14:20.538000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:14:23.140000+08:00","text":"我先請教一下，四項核心重點是哪四項？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2024-09-30T09:14:23.140000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T09:14:26.788500+08:00","text":"我請楊執秘。","quality":0},{"speaker":"楊執行秘書佳玲","start":"2024-09-30T09:14:26.788500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T09:14:30.437000+08:00","text":"是，永續……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:14:30.437000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:14:34.505000+08:00","text":"主委，您不清楚四項核心重點嗎？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:14:34.505000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T09:14:37.018333+08:00","text":"講不出來？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2024-09-30T09:14:37.018333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T09:14:39.531667+08:00","text":"講不出來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:14:39.531667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T09:14:42.045000+08:00","text":"好，沒關係……那個……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:14:42.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:14:57.682000+08:00","text":"沒關係，執秘，本席手上有資料啦，這個是去年2023年4月6號行政院的報告，其中方案裡面有四項重點，以人為本、以終為始、布局未來、比肩國際。","quality":0.796},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:15:00.948000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:15:39.899000+08:00","text":"沒關係，我不是要作文比賽、不是要考文字，本席比較想要知道的是，既然這個計畫你後面的結語是每年要投入150億做淨零科技發展滾動式檢討，所以4年的計畫從2023年到2026年，總共投入600億，本席或是國人總是希望，現在已經一年過去了，我們總是希望能夠看到一些成果，你對這四項核心發展的重點、方向、努力為何，但到目前為止，本席跟我們辦公室的同仁去找資料，還是去年這一份。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:15:41.820000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:15:48.445000+08:00","text":"主委，能不能用滾動式的方式，還是有什麼樣的業務成果要讓國人知道？","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2024-09-30T09:15:48.445000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T09:15:53.923900+08:00","text":"我是希望能夠在施政上面比較具體，雖然我們有……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:15:53.923900+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T09:15:59.402800+08:00","text":"現在不具體嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:15:59.402800+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T09:16:04.881700+08:00","text":"我現在就跟你討論很具體的東西啊，你們去年的方向、目標出來，到今年你到底有什麼具體的東西，我現在想瞭解啊。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2024-09-30T09:16:04.881700+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T09:16:10.360600+08:00","text":"譬如說以人為本到底要怎麼去執行，我們所有的施政當然都是以人為本，所以我現在要報告的就是我剛剛提的，我們預算投入的重點，我剛剛就是在解釋這個事情……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:16:10.360600+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T09:16:15.839500+08:00","text":"所以主委，我的建議是，是不是能夠有一個成果還是你們每年……滾動檢討的部分在於你的成果到底在哪裡？","quality":0.14},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2024-09-30T09:16:15.839500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T09:16:21.318400+08:00","text":"是，洪委員……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:16:21.318400+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T09:16:26.797300+08:00","text":"能不能提供給本席以及外界來做參考？","quality":0},{"speaker":"楊執行秘書佳玲","start":"2024-09-30T09:16:26.797300+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T09:16:32.276200+08:00","text":"我們112年有個成果報告，113年我們在滾動檢討，可能可以公開在國科會的網站上來宣導，我們可以再繼續做這件事情，謝謝委員的指導。是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:16:32.276200+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T09:16:37.755100+08:00","text":"主委，好像對業務還沒有到很熟耶？","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2024-09-30T09:16:37.755100+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T09:16:43.234000+08:00","text":"其實那個……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:16:43.234000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:16:45.899000+08:00","text":"主委，我再請教，每年150億不是全部都是國科會編列的預算嘛？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2024-09-30T09:16:55.544000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:16:56.144000+08:00","text":"不是全部都是國科會。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:16:57.165000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:16:58.265000+08:00","text":"對，哪一個部會最大宗？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2024-09-30T09:16:59.506000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:17:00.106000+08:00","text":"經濟部最多。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:17:00.446000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:17:02.467000+08:00","text":"最大宗，經濟部主要做的是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2024-09-30T09:17:02.467000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:17:03.187000+08:00","text":"能源的議題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:17:03.447000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:17:03.627000+08:00","text":"能源，好。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:17:05.208000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:17:18.893000+08:00","text":"本席另外再請教，現在AI人工智慧基本法也公告了，2個月的時間，到9月15號截止意見交流，預計10月底會報行政院，這個時間沒有問題？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2024-09-30T09:17:22.383000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:17:30.149000+08:00","text":"目前還是按照這個時程在進行，國科會已經通過我們法規會的審查，修正意見我們也都融入進來了。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:17:30.269000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:17:35.834000+08:00","text":"好，這一次2個月的公告時間，最多人疑慮的重點或是關心的方向是哪個部分？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2024-09-30T09:17:36.634000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:17:48.664000+08:00","text":"兩邊都有，第一個就是產業界在擔心我們會不會採用像歐盟這樣非常嚴格的懲罰方式，我們的人權團體也會擔心我們放得太寬，將來對人權的保障會不會不夠，我一開始就有強調我們兩者會兼顧，希望能夠取得最好的平衡點，當然……","quality":0.463},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:17:48.844000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:18:10.623000+08:00","text":"本席有看了一下這十八條的人工智慧基本法，又是一個概略性，等於是宣示性的作用，也沒有相關罰則的部分。","quality":0.822},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2024-09-30T09:18:10.823000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:18:20.870000+08:00","text":"是，我們同時在進行的就是各部會作用法的訂定，現在我們更密集跟數位發展部在討論，因為數位發展……","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:18:20.870000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:18:26.393000+08:00","text":"所以10月報行政院是基本法，相關的配套也會一起出來？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2024-09-30T09:18:26.393000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:18:28.574000+08:00","text":"相關配套也會說明，沒有錯。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:18:28.574000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:18:30.535000+08:00","text":"也會一起出來，是不是？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2024-09-30T09:18:30.816000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:18:36.298000+08:00","text":"不一定，因為最後法案的訂定都還是要送到立法院來審查。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:18:37.259000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:18:55.393000+08:00","text":"當然啊，本席的意思是說現在大家都希望能夠加速，尤其是全世界各國大家都在做AI，AI的部分就要有一個指引，至少告訴國內所有的民眾，到底在AI產業裡面哪些是法令所不允許，而哪些是我們鼓勵大家來做的。","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:18:55.913000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:19:08.824000+08:00","text":"所以基本法只是一個最基本的，後續您剛剛有提到兩個方向，產業界會擔心是不是限縮太多，人權團體會擔心保障太少，簡單來講就是這樣嘛，對不對？是。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:19:09.265000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:19:18.013000+08:00","text":"所以10月國科會要報行政院，行政院院會通過的時候是只有基本法還是會連同配套一起，讓國人更加瞭解？","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2024-09-30T09:19:18.613000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:19:37.065000+08:00","text":"我們配套會說明，各部會相關作用法，就是主責的部會我們也會把它訂出來，訂出來以後，相關需要保障人權的部分在作用法會很明確地訂定，但基本法一定要先行，就像委員所提到的，不然……","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:19:37.445000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:19:43.587000+08:00","text":"所以基本法理想上10月行政院院會會順利通過，這個會期我們可以來審查？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2024-09-30T09:19:43.987000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:19:45.287000+08:00","text":"我期望如此，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:19:45.287000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:19:55.530000+08:00","text":"對，本席也期望嘛，因為從上個會期我就已經提過，本席或是葛如鈞委員、幾個委員也都有我們的修法版本，我們希望行政院版本趕快過來，我們可以一起討論。","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2024-09-30T09:19:55.750000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:19:56.150000+08:00","text":"是，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:19:56.390000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:20:10.640000+08:00","text":"其中大家也提到，AI就是所謂的超級電腦算力或相關的部分，我們現在看到，連國科會下的算力都已經從原本的17名掉到106名！","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2024-09-30T09:20:17.880000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:20:20.401000+08:00","text":"我們現在正在積極布建，就是上個會期……","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:20:20.901000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:20:21.662000+08:00","text":"這是事實。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2024-09-30T09:20:21.662000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:20:29.245000+08:00","text":"我也跟委員報告過，我們現在正在蓋新的Data Center，主機的裝置也在積極進行當中。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:20:29.305000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:20:30.485000+08:00","text":"那我們可不可以預想？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:20:31.106000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:20:38.689000+08:00","text":"畢竟現在106名是事實，我絕對希望我們能名列前茅，但這如果是客觀事實的話。","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:20:38.689000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:20:45.353000+08:00","text":"各國都在發展，各國也都在布建，所以可不可以請教你，現在正在布建的所謂超級電腦，預計什麼時候可以完成？","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2024-09-30T09:20:49.472000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:20:52.715000+08:00","text":"明年會先完成，在南部科學園區就會……","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:20:53.776000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:20:56.158000+08:00","text":"預計我們的算力可以提升到什麼名次？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2024-09-30T09:20:56.998000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:21:09.269000+08:00","text":"在未來幾年之內，我們希望能從現在的19-Petaflops提升到280，至少能進到大概全世界的前30名。前30名？是。","quality":0.568},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:21:09.389000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:21:16.914000+08:00","text":"其實我覺得重點在於維持，主委能夠認同嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2024-09-30T09:21:16.914000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T09:21:17.914000+08:00","text":"對，我們希望能持續。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:21:16.914000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:21:22.056000+08:00","text":"這是跟國際比較，算力只有更多，而且沒有最好，只有更好！是。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:21:23.156000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:21:34.640000+08:00","text":"當我們現在在布建超級電腦下一代時，其實各國也在布建，所以會不會明年、後年結果出來之後，也許如同我們剛剛講的，這樣的算力已經算很好了，但如果各國更好呢？","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:21:34.640000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T09:21:40.091500+08:00","text":"所以這就是相對值！","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:21:40.091500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T09:21:45.543000+08:00","text":"剛剛主委也發下豪語，希望能維持在前30名，那麼未來是不是把資源、預算提出來？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:21:45.543000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T09:21:50.994500+08:00","text":"這樣至少在國際社會上比較算力時，這部分我們應該要維持？","quality":0.04},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2024-09-30T09:21:50.994500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T09:21:56.446000+08:00","text":"盡量維持。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:21:56.446000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:22:04.973000+08:00","text":"最後，因為發展AI所消耗的能源極大，所以有人評估2028年的用電量要成長八倍，要注意能源穩定的供應。","quality":0.69},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:22:04.973000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:22:07.496000+08:00","text":"主委會不會擔心能源供應問題？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2024-09-30T09:22:07.496000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:22:09.517000+08:00","text":"我們經濟部很努力，我相信可以……","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:22:09.938000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:22:10.498000+08:00","text":"你們經濟部？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:22:10.638000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:22:11.699000+08:00","text":"你什麼時候管到經濟部去？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2024-09-30T09:22:12.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:22:13.581000+08:00","text":"我是說他們很努力！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2024-09-30T09:22:14.381000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:22:18.445000+08:00","text":"他們很努力，我相信他們可以讓我們沒有這個問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:22:18.445000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:22:21.307000+08:00","text":"所以你不會擔心我們有能源配比問題？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2024-09-30T09:22:22.489000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:22:25.111000+08:00","text":"我們當然會擔心，但我相信大家會努力。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:22:26.232000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:22:30.055000+08:00","text":"我相信公務員會努力，但重點是上面的政策問題！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:22:30.956000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:22:40.163000+08:00","text":"現在拉回來講第一題淨零碳排，我們希望能夠推動淨零，你也說經濟部投入最多，在150億裡經濟部占大宗。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:22:41.224000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:22:48.290000+08:00","text":"您知道在2028年經濟部所提供的，即便能源供給無虞，經濟部提供超過80%是什麼樣的發電嗎？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2024-09-30T09:22:53.133000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:22:55.715000+08:00","text":"現在正在努力開拓綠能。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:22:56.596000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:22:59.638000+08:00","text":"我知道，但推估到2028年時，您知道超過80%是什麼樣的發電嗎？","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2024-09-30T09:22:59.638000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:23:00.019000+08:00","text":"這是經濟部的業務，不便回答。什麼？主委……抱歉！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:23:00.059000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:23:00.479000+08:00","text":"這是佛地魔，是不是？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:23:11.633000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:23:15.459000+08:00","text":"火力發電超過80%，這不是大家都知道的嗎？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:23:15.459000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:23:29.630000+08:00","text":"民進黨政府的前總統蔡英文在2025淨零碳排也講了，2025希望非核家園配比是20、30、50，其中，20再生能源，30燃氣發電，50燃煤發電……抱歉，我修正，30燃煤發電、50燃氣發電，這是他講的。","quality":0.836},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:23:29.730000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:23:30.971000+08:00","text":"所以蔡英文總統之前就講過，超過80%是火力發電，這很難講嗎？","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-09-30T09:23:30.991000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:23:31.191000+08:00","text":"已經超過30秒了，是不是後續……","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:23:31.191000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T09:23:43.717000+08:00","text":"主委，實事求是，這其實不是政治意識形態，這是臺灣現在所面臨的問題，是要面對的能源問題，是國科會要發展AI超級電腦時能源需要的問題，不是政治意識形態……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-09-30T09:23:43.717000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:23:45.037000+08:00","text":"洪孟楷委員已經超過不只30秒了！","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:23:45.037000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T09:23:46.037000+08:00","text":"不要那麼害怕！","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T09:23:46.037000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T09:23:47.037000+08:00","text":"在國會殿堂要講實話！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳主任委員誠文","start":"2024-09-30T09:23:45.298000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:23:45.618000+08:00","text":"國科會會……","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-09-30T09:23:45.618000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T09:23:50.154500+08:00","text":"請主委再跟洪孟楷委員溝通好嗎？","quality":0.071},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-09-30T09:23:50.154500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T09:23:54.691000+08:00","text":"或者之後再以報告給他。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-09-30T09:23:54.691000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T09:23:59.227500+08:00","text":"謝謝洪孟楷委員，請回。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-09-30T09:23:59.227500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T09:24:03.764000+08:00","text":"主委，請回。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-09-30T09:24:03.764000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:24:04.125000+08:00","text":"下一位請萬美玲委員質詢。","quality":0.727}]},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:10:00 - 09:24:17","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席就「永續科研與政策溝通」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【9月30日及10月3日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":51,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（9時9分）主席謝謝，麻煩請吳主委。"],["主席：有請主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：洪委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：吳主委好。吳主委，今天召委排的這個題目非常有意義，大家看到兩個禮拜前，學界有500人連署兩個訴求，呼籲國科會要重視永續發展的跨域研究，其中有三個學門的發展方向，超過500名學者認為是不是跟賴總統所推動的國家希望工程背道而馳，也批評國科會有黑箱操作，本席剛剛特別有看了你的專案報告，不過我還是再給你一個機會好好地來說明一下，因為現在學界批評這是實問虛答。"],["吳主任委員誠文：當然沒有虛答，我剛剛已經報告得很清楚，我們對於永續發展是非常重視的，所以國科會歷年來編列在相關永續的經費是逐年增加，特別是我們國科會內部的永續學門現在也累積了非常多原來在各個不同領域的教授，也集合到這個學門裡面來，大家可以做跨領域的研究，這是一個非常好的現象。"],["洪委員孟楷：我現在請教的是這三個學門到底有沒有要做調整的方向？"],["吳主任委員誠文：沒有，這是一個誤會，我們後來已經發出澄清說明，也非常清楚地……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以我確認一下，學門名稱沒有調整、領域沒有調整？"],["吳主任委員誠文：沒有調整。"],["洪委員孟楷：人員沒有調整？"],["吳主任委員誠文：沒有調整。"],["洪委員孟楷：計畫沒有調整？"],["吳主任委員誠文：沒有調整。"],["洪委員孟楷：都沒有調整。"],["吳主任委員誠文：只會增加不會減少。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，那為什麼會有這樣的空穴來風？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們原來……"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，我也很希望跟我們國科會站在一起，如果說沒有調整，主委剛剛連說四個沒有，那空穴來風是什麼原因？還有超過500人以上的學界人士連署，本來無一物，何處惹塵埃，這個塵埃是怎麼造成的？"],["吳主任委員誠文：可能是在我們國科會內部會議討論的時候，我們的自然處……因為這三個學門是持續在發展，業務量非常龐大，有些計畫主持人原本是分散在各個其他學門，紛紛到這個地方來提計畫，所以本來是在想是不是有機會也讓其他處的行政工作也能夠來協助，只是在討論這個可能性而已，並沒有要縮減學門的計畫，並沒有要縮減經費，可能是在內部討論還沒有對外溝通的時候，就已經傳出去了，傳出去以後，大家可能以為我們是要減少永續學門的預算經費等等，或是要改變他們現在計畫執行的狀態，所以他們在還沒有跟我們求證的時候就已經在連署，我也覺得這是有點誤會，這應該是誤會。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以主委覺得很冤枉？"],["吳主任委員誠文：也不算冤枉，因為大家是關心這個學門的發展，我也是非常……"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，本席相信，永續這個課題不應該被抹滅，因為這是顯學嘛。"],["吳主任委員誠文：當然不會。"],["洪委員孟楷：在全世界、國際大家都在做這個顯學，淨零碳排、永續環境，以及讓我們下一代、這一代能夠有更好的環境，這本來就是大家都在推動的方向嘛。"],["吳主任委員誠文：非常認同。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們有看到國科會有一個淨零科技方案，淨零科技方案從去年提出來到2026年，至少這4年的期間會希望往2050淨零碳排的方向來走，對不對？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：您這邊也上任了一段時間，到目前為止，我想請教這四項核心重點，目前推動的成果如何？"],["吳主任委員誠文：國科會在上游的基礎科研布局，我們投入非常高減碳潛力的前瞻科研研發，這是國科會的任務，我們也協助經濟部在支持中下游產業所需的減碳創新技術研發與輔導中小企業淨零轉型，這個都是國科會在協助。"],["洪委員孟楷：我先請教一下，四項核心重點是哪四項？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我請楊執秘。"],["楊執行秘書佳玲：是，永續……"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，您不清楚四項核心重點嗎？講不出來？"],["吳主任委員誠文：講不出來。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，沒關係……"],["楊執行秘書佳玲：那個……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒關係，執秘，本席手上有資料啦，這個是去年2023年4月6號行政院的報告，其中方案裡面有四項重點，以人為本、以終為始、布局未來、比肩國際。沒關係，我不是要作文比賽、不是要考文字，本席比較想要知道的是，既然這個計畫你後面的結語是每年要投入150億做淨零科技發展滾動式檢討，所以4年的計畫從2023年到2026年，總共投入600億，本席或是國人總是希望，現在已經一年過去了，我們總是希望能夠看到一些成果，你對這四項核心發展的重點、方向、努力為何，但到目前為止，本席跟我們辦公室的同仁去找資料，還是去年這一份。主委，能不能用滾動式的方式，還是有什麼樣的業務成果要讓國人知道？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我是希望能夠在施政上面比較具體，雖然我們有……"],["洪委員孟楷：現在不具體嗎？我現在就跟你討論很具體的東西啊，你們去年的方向、目標出來，到今年你到底有什麼具體的東西，我現在想瞭解啊。"],["吳主任委員誠文：譬如說以人為本到底要怎麼去執行，我們所有的施政當然都是以人為本，所以我現在要報告的就是我剛剛提的，我們預算投入的重點，我剛剛就是在解釋這個事情……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以主委，我的建議是，是不是能夠有一個成果還是你們每年……滾動檢討的部分在於你的成果到底在哪裡？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，洪委員……"],["洪委員孟楷：能不能提供給本席以及外界來做參考？"],["楊執行秘書佳玲：我們112年有個成果報告，113年我們在滾動檢討，可能可以公開在國科會的網站上來宣導，我們可以再繼續做這件事情，謝謝委員的指導。"],["洪委員孟楷：是。主委，好像對業務還沒有到很熟耶？"],["吳主任委員誠文：其實那個……"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，我再請教，每年150億不是全部都是國科會編列的預算嘛？"],["吳主任委員誠文：不是全部都是國科會。"],["洪委員孟楷：對，哪一個部會最大宗？"],["吳主任委員誠文：經濟部最多。"],["洪委員孟楷：最大宗，經濟部主要做的是什麼？"],["吳主任委員誠文：能源的議題。"],["洪委員孟楷：能源，好。本席另外再請教，現在AI人工智慧基本法也公告了，2個月的時間，到9月15號截止意見交流，預計10月底會報行政院，這個時間沒有問題？"],["吳主任委員誠文：目前還是按照這個時程在進行，國科會已經通過我們法規會的審查，修正意見我們也都融入進來了。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，這一次2個月的公告時間，最多人疑慮的重點或是關心的方向是哪個部分？"],["吳主任委員誠文：兩邊都有，第一個就是產業界在擔心我們會不會採用像歐盟這樣非常嚴格的懲罰方式，我們的人權團體也會擔心我們放得太寬，將來對人權的保障會不會不夠，我一開始就有強調我們兩者會兼顧，希望能夠取得最好的平衡點，當然……"],["洪委員孟楷：本席有看了一下這十八條的人工智慧基本法，又是一個概略性，等於是宣示性的作用，也沒有相關罰則的部分。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，我們同時在進行的就是各部會作用法的訂定，現在我們更密集跟數位發展部在討論，因為數位發展……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以10月報行政院是基本法，相關的配套也會一起出來？"],["吳主任委員誠文：相關配套也會說明，沒有錯。"],["洪委員孟楷：也會一起出來，是不是？"],["吳主任委員誠文：不一定，因為最後法案的訂定都還是要送到立法院來審查。"],["洪委員孟楷：當然啊，本席的意思是說現在大家都希望能夠加速，尤其是全世界各國大家都在做AI，AI的部分就要有一個指引，至少告訴國內所有的民眾，到底在AI產業裡面哪些是法令所不允許，而哪些是我們鼓勵大家來做的。所以基本法只是一個最基本的，後續您剛剛有提到兩個方向，產業界會擔心是不是限縮太多，人權團體會擔心保障太少，簡單來講就是這樣嘛，對不對？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以10月國科會要報行政院，行政院院會通過的時候是只有基本法還是會連同配套一起，讓國人更加瞭解？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們配套會說明，各部會相關作用法，就是主責的部會我們也會把它訂出來，訂出來以後，相關需要保障人權的部分在作用法會很明確地訂定，但基本法一定要先行，就像委員所提到的，不然……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以基本法理想上10月行政院院會會順利通過，這個會期我們可以來審查？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我期望如此，謝謝。"],["洪委員孟楷：對，本席也期望嘛，因為從上個會期我就已經提過，本席或是葛如鈞委員、幾個委員也都有我們的修法版本，我們希望行政院版本趕快過來，我們可以一起討論。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，謝謝。"],["洪委員孟楷：其中大家也提到，AI就是所謂的超級電腦算力或相關的部分，我們現在看到，連國科會下的算力都已經從原本的17名掉到106名！"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們現在正在積極布建，就是上個會期……"],["洪委員孟楷：這是事實。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我也跟委員報告過，我們現在正在蓋新的Data Center，主機的裝置也在積極進行當中。"],["洪委員孟楷：那我們可不可以預想？畢竟現在106名是事實，我絕對希望我們能名列前茅，但這如果是客觀事實的話。各國都在發展，各國也都在布建，所以可不可以請教你，現在正在布建的所謂超級電腦，預計什麼時候可以完成？"],["吳主任委員誠文：明年會先完成，在南部科學園區就會……"],["洪委員孟楷：預計我們的算力可以提升到什麼名次？"],["吳主任委員誠文：在未來幾年之內，我們希望能從現在的19-Petaflops提升到280，至少能進到大概全世界的前30名。"],["洪委員孟楷：前30名？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：其實我覺得重點在於維持，主委能夠認同嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：對，我們希望能持續。"],["洪委員孟楷：這是跟國際比較，算力只有更多，而且沒有最好，只有更好！"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：當我們現在在布建超級電腦下一代時，其實各國也在布建，所以會不會明年、後年結果出來之後，也許如同我們剛剛講的，這樣的算力已經算很好了，但如果各國更好呢？所以這就是相對值！剛剛主委也發下豪語，希望能維持在前30名，那麼未來是不是把資源、預算提出來？這樣至少在國際社會上比較算力時，這部分我們應該要維持？"],["吳主任委員誠文：盡量維持。"],["洪委員孟楷：最後，因為發展AI所消耗的能源極大，所以有人評估2028年的用電量要成長八倍，要注意能源穩定的供應。主委會不會擔心能源供應問題？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們經濟部很努力，我相信可以……"],["洪委員孟楷：你們經濟部？你什麼時候管到經濟部去？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我是說他們很努力！他們很努力，我相信他們可以讓我們沒有這個問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以你不會擔心我們有能源配比問題？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們當然會擔心，但我相信大家會努力。"],["洪委員孟楷：我相信公務員會努力，但重點是上面的政策問題！現在拉回來講第一題淨零碳排，我們希望能夠推動淨零，你也說經濟部投入最多，在150億裡經濟部占大宗。您知道在2028年經濟部所提供的，即便能源供給無虞，經濟部提供超過80%是什麼樣的發電嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：現在正在努力開拓綠能。"],["洪委員孟楷：我知道，但推估到2028年時，您知道超過80%是什麼樣的發電嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這是經濟部的業務，不便回答。"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼？主委……"],["吳主任委員誠文：抱歉！"],["洪委員孟楷：這是佛地魔，是不是？火力發電超過80%，這不是大家都知道的嗎？民進黨政府的前總統蔡英文在2025淨零碳排也講了，2025希望非核家園配比是20、30、50，其中，20再生能源，30燃氣發電，50燃煤發電……抱歉，我修正，30燃煤發電、50燃氣發電，這是他講的。所以蔡英文總統之前就講過，超過80%是火力發電，這很難講嗎？"],["主席：已經超過30秒了，是不是後續……"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，實事求是，這其實不是政治意識形態，這是臺灣現在所面臨的問題，是要面對的能源問題，是國科會要發展AI超級電腦時能源需要的問題，不是政治意識形態……"],["主席：洪孟楷委員已經超過不只30秒了！"],["洪委員孟楷：不要那麼害怕！在國會殿堂要講實話！"],["吳主任委員誠文：國科會會……"],["主席：請主委再跟洪孟楷委員溝通好嗎？或者之後再以報告給他。謝謝洪孟楷委員，請回。主委，請回。","下一位請萬美玲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":292,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-2","speakers":["范雲","洪孟楷","萬美玲","柯志恩","葉元之","林倩綺","吳沛憶","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","張雅琳","林宜瑾","洪申翰","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","羅智強","陳培瑜","賴士葆","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","吳春城","陳冠廷","鄭正鈐","翁曉玲","游顥"],"page_start":217,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席就「永續科研與政策溝通」進行專題報告，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1137701_00012"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}