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一家公司叫凱強生一塊香皂賣五千塊他現在已經不是直銷他其實是違法吸金我相信你也有follow到這一則新聞嘛對不對很多的阿公阿嬤因為這樣子差一點破產"},{"start":88.064,"end":115.198,"text":"主委這個是我們調出來齁這一家公司曾經被公平會裁罰過裁罰的金額只有10萬塊裁罰的原因是因為他做多層次傳銷沒有向公平會報備所以被裁罰了10萬塊那之後呢裁罰了之後這一家公司說他不做多層次傳銷你們也就沒有繼續再查了"},{"start":116.85,"end":136.997,"text":"這家公司不做多層次傳銷現在轉變成違法吸金轉變成詐騙主委我想要問一下到底你們過去查的這一些不管他是真的在做多層次傳銷或是已經轉為詐騙到底你們現在查的進度為何可不可以解要說明一下"},{"start":141.972,"end":163.897,"text":"當時就是10年前曾經沒有報備就從事多層次傳銷,這個我們處罰過了你們這個處罰10萬塊,你如果對比他現在的吸金的程度,違法吸金的程度,這個其實只是零毛一角當時處罰的是沒有報備,至於吸金那一定有更嚴重的刑法的一些制裁"},{"start":165.692,"end":191.02,"text":"西京是最近被查出來了我現在不是只有講這一家公司我現在是講說針對這樣的類似的詐騙案件我們遇到有涉及到西京而且是多層次傳銷管理法管不到的我們會移到這個地檢署可不可以有一個可以提供的資料可以給本席就是你們現在調查的結果因為我11月份的時候曾經質詢過那到目前為止你們這一些疑似"},{"start":192,"end":192.22,"text":"：邱議瑩：邱議瑩"},{"start":219.048,"end":219.328,"text":"臺灣代表臺灣代表"},{"start":249.808,"end":275.844,"text":"主委這要不要查跟委員說明不是只有查這家公司假借淨零碳牌然後開一大堆奇奇怪怪的課程以淨零碳牌開這個招生也好那他說他邀請了什麼偉大的人或是多麼專業的人如果事實沒有這個我們向來就會查前一陣子還說是跟經濟部合作或者是跟其他單位合作這個我們都會查也有處罰的案例"},{"start":275.964,"end":295.099,"text":"你們都會查的意思是說你們還沒有開始查那如果還沒有開始查是什麼時候要開始查你這個違法招生我們有一件已經立案調查那再來就是說他用這個補習班的方式去招生也同時違反這個補習教育相關法律這個我們跟教育部會有一個合作的機制來遏阻這種不實的行為"},{"start":298.021,"end":320.397,"text":"主委我想我們現在提出的這些東西其實我們過去都一直不斷的在強調公平會很多時候是屬於被動的立場就是有人檢舉你們才去查你們很少會去主動發掘然後主動去立案調查我覺得這個是公平會比較弱的地方所以常常都是立法委員在這裡質詢然後或者是說你們有接到誰的檢舉才開始去調查"},{"start":322.919,"end":349.848,"text":"讓大家會覺得公平會其實效能不彰但公平會是不是真的效能不彰其實就你們來說你們其實做了很多事情你也覺得很委屈接下來我要問的這個大概會跟人事案有關主委您的任期會到明年的1月31號任滿正常來講立法院應該要在今年的10月底行政院應該今年的10月底就要提名新的主委人選"},{"start":350.768,"end":351.488,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":371.813,"end":397.381,"text":"那您的任期在明年的1月31號屆滿不過我現在知道有委員有國民黨的委員要提出來不只是要杯葛甚至任期屆滿之後如果沒有通過人事同意權的話他就要刪除所謂的過度條款要刪除所謂的過度條款主委您知道這個事情嗎我知道"},{"start":398.408,"end":422.319,"text":"我知道好那你們有沒有什麼因應措施或者是任期結束之後你會直接拍拍屁股就走人還是說你們會有人留下來撐撐到這個人事統一權通過那假如立法院強行把這個所謂的過度條款刪除的話公平會能不能運作該如何運作怎麼樣持續運作"},{"start":423.379,"end":449.865,"text":"主委來請您說明一下我們有4位委員會在明年1月底任期屆滿所以現任的7位委員會剩3位當時立法設計7個人就是大家各有專長跟經驗好好去執行我們應該做的這些工作所以我還是希望這一屆的這個任期能夠如期來舉行如果沒有完成這個任命第一個7個人剩3個人"},{"start":450.885,"end":451.365,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":471.428,"end":496.23,"text":"如果我們沒有這個足夠的這個委員的人數或者是法定人數不足或者是很少的這個人數做成決議第一個這個決議的內容是否周延是一個問題那假設留會或者是人員不足這個案子結合我們的結合是這樣子如果過了這個審議期以後你們沒有沒有任何的裁處的話沒有任何的裁決的話他就是直接就結合了嘛"},{"start":496.75,"end":513.003,"text":"所以你現在要講就是說如果是這樣的話對於未來你們在審查這樣的一個重大的結合案件其實是會遇到相當大的不管是結合案件或是違法的聯合限制競爭不實廣告的行為在做決議的時候在執行上恐怕會有一些自愛難行"},{"start":513.683,"end":531.713,"text":"其實公平會看起來其實它不是有太大政治性的一個部會但是對於台灣的很多的公平交易事項或者是違規的事、廣告不實的事項等等它其實是有一個重大的裁決權的單位啦所以我們當然也不希望"},{"start":533.795,"end":549.852,"text":"這個大家是這樣子用比較不理性的方式去刪除掉這樣所謂的過度條款即使不能在任期完成之前任期屆滿之前完成人事同意權但是我覺得所謂的過度條款也不應該任意的刪除啦"},{"start":553.075,"end":580.102,"text":"當然如果能夠在任期結束之前完成人事權的審查這當然是最好所以我想我們也會來努力但是我覺得公平會你們自己也要有一套應對的措施或者是說也要有一套縮帖出來這個立法院的這個交戰常常是瞬息萬變那對於政務官來講對於你們的這個行政單位來說你們其實也要有一套"},{"start":580.862,"end":580.942,"text":"主席"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2024-09-30T09:21:40.323000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:21:54.586000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，我是不是請一下主委？","quality":0.308},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-09-30T09:21:54.586000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T09:21:55.586000+08:00","text":"請李主委。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李主任委員鎂","start":"2024-09-30T09:21:55.586000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T09:21:56.586000+08:00","text":"委員早。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2024-09-30T09:21:56.586000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T09:21:57.586000+08:00","text":"主委早。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2024-09-30T09:21:55.968000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:22:42.838000+08:00","text":"主委，我們每次在這邊質詢都會問到多層次傳銷的問題，根據你們的統計，現在多層次傳銷的營業額已經高達1,083.7億元，今年又增加了29.01億元，多層次傳銷在臺灣越來越盛行，但是相關的詐騙案其實也越來越多，包括去年我的質詢裡面也跟你們談到，您自己講，公平會主動移送調查的詐騙案有143件，8件已經移送法辦，到目前為止，我不曉得你們其他詐騙案件執行的程度為何？","quality":0.651},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2024-09-30T09:22:43.779000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:22:58.823000+08:00","text":"主委，讓您看一下最近的新聞，這家公司叫凱強生，一塊香皂賣5,000塊，現在已經不是直銷，其實是違法吸金，我相信你也有follow到這一則新聞，對不對？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2024-09-30T09:22:58.823000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:23:01.924000+08:00","text":"很多阿公、阿嬤因為這樣差點破產。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2024-09-30T09:23:03.064000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:23:36.272000+08:00","text":"主委，這是我們調出來的資料，這一家公司曾經被公平會裁罰過，裁罰金額只有10萬塊，裁罰原因是他做多層次傳銷沒有向公平會報備，所以被裁罰了10萬塊，裁罰了之後，這家公司說他不做多層次傳銷，你們也就沒有繼續再查了，這家公司不做多層次傳銷，現在轉變成違法吸金、轉變成詐騙。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2024-09-30T09:23:36.272000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:23:50.536000+08:00","text":"主委，我想要問一下，你們過去查的這些，不管他真的是在做多層次傳銷，或是已經轉為詐騙，到底你們現在查的進度為何？","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2024-09-30T09:23:50.936000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:23:51.977000+08:00","text":"可不可以簡要說明一下。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"李主任委員鎂","start":"2024-09-30T09:23:56.972000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:24:02.734000+08:00","text":"委員，這家凱強生當時，也就是10年前曾經沒有報備就從事多層次傳銷……對。","quality":0.69},{"speaker":"李主任委員鎂","start":"2024-09-30T09:24:02.734000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:24:03.194000+08:00","text":"這個我們處罰過了。是。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"李主任委員鎂","start":"2024-09-30T09:24:03.194000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T09:24:04.194000+08:00","text":"他後來……","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2024-09-30T09:24:03.414000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:24:14.296000+08:00","text":"你們只有處罰10萬塊嘛，如果對比他現在違法吸金的程度，這個其實只是一角啦。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"李主任委員鎂","start":"2024-09-30T09:24:14.496000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:24:18.877000+08:00","text":"是，當時處罰的是他沒有報備，至於吸金，一定有更嚴重的刑法制裁……","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2024-09-30T09:24:21.032000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:24:26.394000+08:00","text":"吸金是最近被查出來了，我現在不是只講這一家公司，我現在是針對這樣類似的詐騙案件。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"李主任委員鎂","start":"2024-09-30T09:24:26.754000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:24:34.256000+08:00","text":"遇到涉及吸金，而且是多層次傳銷管理法管不到的，我們會移到地檢署或檢調單位……","quality":0.794},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2024-09-30T09:24:34.476000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:24:37.217000+08:00","text":"可不可以提供資料給本席？","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"李主任委員鎂","start":"2024-09-30T09:24:37.557000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:24:37.917000+08:00","text":"會後可以給你。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2024-09-30T09:24:39.058000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:24:43.619000+08:00","text":"就是你們現在調查的結果，因為我11月份的時候曾經質詢過嘛。是。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2024-09-30T09:24:43.619000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T09:24:59.401750+08:00","text":"到目前為止，這些疑似詐騙或者其實是掛羊頭賣狗肉的，這些調查結果是不是能夠給本席，或者是給我們經濟委員會？","quality":0.188},{"speaker":"李主任委員鎂","start":"2024-09-30T09:24:59.401750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T09:25:15.184500+08:00","text":"是，我們會把這些數據提供給委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2024-09-30T09:25:15.184500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T09:25:30.967250+08:00","text":"現在不只是多層次傳銷，大家最厲害的、最喜歡講的是淨零碳排，所以淨零碳排的課程也很多，我不知道公平會有沒有開始立案調查，讓您看一下，現在有這種不知道哪裡冒出來的博士，他去歐洲就說他是臺灣的代表，甚至也有沒有立案就開始違法招生。","quality":0.039},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2024-09-30T09:25:30.967250+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T09:25:46.750000+08:00","text":"這個影片在4月時就已經在網路上流傳，這一家叫碳淨零學院，他立案的日期是在2024年5月16號，但是畢業學員的影片，在2024年4月22號就已經開始在YouTube上面流傳，主委，這要不要查？","quality":0.096},{"speaker":"李主任委員鎂","start":"2024-09-30T09:25:46.750000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:25:47.310000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明……","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2024-09-30T09:25:48.271000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:25:53.534000+08:00","text":"不是只有查這家公司喔，我說的是假借淨零碳排開一大堆奇奇怪怪的課程……","quality":0.806},{"speaker":"李主任委員鎂","start":"2024-09-30T09:25:53.694000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:26:10.824000+08:00","text":"以淨零碳排招生也好，他說他邀請了什麼偉大的人，或是多麼專業的人，如果事實沒有，這個我們向來都會查，前一陣子還說是跟經濟部合作，或者跟其他單位合作，這個我們都會查，也有處罰的案例。","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2024-09-30T09:26:11.164000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:26:16.068000+08:00","text":"都會查的意思是你們還沒有開始查，如果還沒有開始查，那什麼時候要開始查？","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"李主任委員鎂","start":"2024-09-30T09:26:16.468000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:26:18.470000+08:00","text":"以違法招生為例，我們有一件已經立案調查……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2024-09-30T09:26:18.470000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T09:26:21.072000+08:00","text":"已經有一件立案調查。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李主任委員鎂","start":"2024-09-30T09:26:21.072000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:26:30.099000+08:00","text":"再來，他用補習班的方式招生，同時也違反補習教育相關法令，我們跟教育部會有一個合作機制來遏阻這種不實的行為。","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2024-09-30T09:26:33.021000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:27:03.661000+08:00","text":"好，主委，我現在提出的這些東西，其實我們過去都一直不斷的在強調，公平會很多時候是屬於被動的立場，有人檢舉你們才去查，你們很少會主動發掘、主動立案調查，我覺得這是公平會比較弱的地方，所以常常都是立法委員在這裡質詢，或者是你們接到誰的檢舉才開始調查，讓大家覺得公平會效能不彰，但公平會是不是真的效能不彰？","quality":0.993},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2024-09-30T09:27:04.041000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:27:07.422000+08:00","text":"就你們來說，你們其實做了很多事情，你也覺得很委屈嘛。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2024-09-30T09:27:08.683000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:27:17.145000+08:00","text":"接下來我要問的這個大概會跟人事案有關，主委，您的任期到明年的1月31號任滿，對不對？是。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2024-09-30T09:27:17.145000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:27:26.388000+08:00","text":"正常來講，立法院應該要在今年的10月底──行政院應該今年的10月底就要提名新的主委人選送到立法院來審查，不過現在我們得到的消息，我現在列出來的這個表格是會在今年年底或者是明年年初任期屆滿，需要立法院來行使人事同意權的部會。","quality":0.382},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2024-09-30T09:27:47.093000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:28:12.121000+08:00","text":"您的任期在明年的1月31號屆滿，我現在知道有國民黨的委員要提出來，不只是要杯葛，甚至任期屆滿之後，如果沒有通過人事同意權，他們就要刪除所謂的過渡條款，主委，您知道這個事情嗎？","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"李主任委員鎂","start":"2024-09-30T09:28:13.408000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:28:13.708000+08:00","text":"我知道。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2024-09-30T09:28:13.968000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:28:16.449000+08:00","text":"好，那你們有沒有什麼因應措施？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2024-09-30T09:28:17.090000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:28:21.652000+08:00","text":"或者任期結束之後，你會直接就拍拍屁股走人？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2024-09-30T09:28:22.312000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:28:28.535000+08:00","text":"還是你們會有人留下來撐到人事同意權通過？","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2024-09-30T09:28:28.735000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:28:34.697000+08:00","text":"假如立法院強行把所謂的過渡條款刪除的話，公平會能不能運作？","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2024-09-30T09:28:35.438000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:28:35.978000+08:00","text":"該如何運作？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2024-09-30T09:28:36.738000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:28:37.299000+08:00","text":"怎麼樣持續運作？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2024-09-30T09:28:38.379000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:28:39.499000+08:00","text":"主委，請您說明一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李主任委員鎂","start":"2024-09-30T09:28:40.319000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:28:46.661000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員，我們有4位委員在明年1月底任期屆滿，所以現任的7位委員會剩3位。對。","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"李主任委員鎂","start":"2024-09-30T09:28:47.721000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:29:04.845000+08:00","text":"當時立法設計7個人就是大家各有專長跟經驗，好好執行我們應該做的工作，所以我還是希望這一屆的任期能夠如期舉行，如果沒有完成這個任命，第一個，7個人剩3個人，能不能集思廣益……","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2024-09-30T09:29:04.845000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T09:29:05.845000+08:00","text":"也沒辦法開會吧？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李主任委員鎂","start":"2024-09-30T09:29:05.845000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T09:29:06.845000+08:00","text":"3個人如果有請假或者是有流會的情形，尤其是結合案件，我舉個例子好了，現在foodpanda正在結合……","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2024-09-30T09:29:06.845000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T09:29:07.845000+08:00","text":"正在審議……","quality":0},{"speaker":"李主任委員鎂","start":"2024-09-30T09:29:05.885000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:29:43.383000+08:00","text":"正在結合申報，如果在法定期間內沒有做出決定，他們就可以結合，如果我們沒有足夠的委員人數，或者是法定人數不足，還是很少的人數做成決議，第一個，這個決議的內容是否周延是一個問題，假設流會或者是人員不足，這個案子結合……我們的結合是這樣子……","quality":0.743},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2024-09-30T09:29:43.523000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:29:46.906000+08:00","text":"如果過了這個審議期以後，你們沒有任何的裁處……","quality":1},{"speaker":"李主任委員鎂","start":"2024-09-30T09:29:46.906000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T09:29:47.906000+08:00","text":"沒有決定就是直接……","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2024-09-30T09:29:47.346000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:29:51.210000+08:00","text":"沒有任何裁決的話，他們就是直接結合了嘛。是的。","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2024-09-30T09:29:51.750000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:30:00.116000+08:00","text":"所以你現在要講的是，如果這樣的話，對於未來你們審查這樣的重大結合案件，其實會遇到相當大的……","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"李主任委員鎂","start":"2024-09-30T09:30:00.317000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:30:07.982000+08:00","text":"不管是結合案件或是違法的聯合限制競爭、不實廣告行為，在做決議的時候，執行上恐怕會有一些窒礙難行。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2024-09-30T09:30:08.683000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:31:04.839000+08:00","text":"其實公平會看起來不是有太大政治性的一個部會，但對於臺灣很多的公平交易事項或者違規、廣告不實事項等等，他其實是有重大裁決權的單位，所以我們當然也不希望大家用比較不理性的方式去刪除所謂的過渡條款，即使不能在任期屆滿之前完成人事同意權，但是我覺得所謂的過渡條款也不應該任意刪除，如果能夠在任期結束之前完成人事權的審查當然是最好，我想我們也會努力，但我覺得公平會你們自己也要有一套應對措施，或者是也要有一套說帖出來。","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2024-09-30T09:31:04.839000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T09:31:15.082000+08:00","text":"立法院的交戰常常是瞬息萬變，對於政務官來講、對於行政單位來說，你們其實也要有一套因應，未來這個單位要怎麼樣能夠運作下去，我覺得你們也要好好的去思考這個問題。","quality":0.514},{"speaker":"李主任委員鎂","start":"2024-09-30T09:31:15.582000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T09:31:16.582000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2024-09-30T09:31:16.882000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T09:31:17.882000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-09-30T09:31:18.182000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T09:31:20.467714+08:00","text":"請賴瑞隆委員質詢。","quality":0}]},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:21:35 - 09:31:26","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請公平交易委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":97,"blocks":[["邱委員議瑩：（9時21分）謝謝主席，我是不是請一下主委？"],["主席：請李主委。"],["李主任委員鎂：委員早。"],["邱委員議瑩：主委早。主委，我們每次在這邊質詢都會問到多層次傳銷的問題，根據你們的統計，現在多層次傳銷的營業額已經高達1,083.7億元，今年又增加了29.01億元，多層次傳銷在臺灣越來越盛行，但是相關的詐騙案其實也越來越多，包括去年我的質詢裡面也跟你們談到，您自己講，公平會主動移送調查的詐騙案有143件，8件已經移送法辦，到目前為止，我不曉得你們其他詐騙案件執行的程度為何？","主委，讓您看一下最近的新聞，這家公司叫凱強生，一塊香皂賣5,000塊，現在已經不是直銷，其實是違法吸金，我相信你也有follow到這一則新聞，對不對？很多阿公、阿嬤因為這樣差點破產。主委，這是我們調出來的資料，這一家公司曾經被公平會裁罰過，裁罰金額只有10萬塊，裁罰原因是他做多層次傳銷沒有向公平會報備，所以被裁罰了10萬塊，裁罰了之後，這家公司說他不做多層次傳銷，你們也就沒有繼續再查了，這家公司不做多層次傳銷，現在轉變成違法吸金、轉變成詐騙。","主委，我想要問一下，你們過去查的這些，不管他真的是在做多層次傳銷，或是已經轉為詐騙，到底你們現在查的進度為何？可不可以簡要說明一下。"],["李主任委員鎂：委員，這家凱強生當時，也就是10年前曾經沒有報備就從事多層次傳銷……"],["邱委員議瑩：對。"],["李主任委員鎂：這個我們處罰過了。"],["邱委員議瑩：是。"],["李主任委員鎂：他後來……"],["邱委員議瑩：你們只有處罰10萬塊嘛，如果對比他現在違法吸金的程度，這個其實只是一角啦。"],["李主任委員鎂：是，當時處罰的是他沒有報備，至於吸金，一定有更嚴重的刑法制裁……"],["邱委員議瑩：吸金是最近被查出來了，我現在不是只講這一家公司，我現在是針對這樣類似的詐騙案件。"],["李主任委員鎂：遇到涉及吸金，而且是多層次傳銷管理法管不到的，我們會移到地檢署或檢調單位……"],["邱委員議瑩：可不可以提供資料給本席？"],["李主任委員鎂：會後可以給你。"],["邱委員議瑩：就是你們現在調查的結果，因為我11月份的時候曾經質詢過嘛。"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["邱委員議瑩：到目前為止，這些疑似詐騙或者其實是掛羊頭賣狗肉的，這些調查結果是不是能夠給本席，或者是給我們經濟委員會？"],["李主任委員鎂：是，我們會把這些數據提供給委員。"],["邱委員議瑩：現在不只是多層次傳銷，大家最厲害的、最喜歡講的是淨零碳排，所以淨零碳排的課程也很多，我不知道公平會有沒有開始立案調查，讓您看一下，現在有這種不知道哪裡冒出來的博士，他去歐洲就說他是臺灣的代表，甚至也有沒有立案就開始違法招生。這個影片在4月時就已經在網路上流傳，這一家叫碳淨零學院，他立案的日期是在2024年5月16號，但是畢業學員的影片，在2024年4月22號就已經開始在YouTube上面流傳，主委，這要不要查？"],["李主任委員鎂：跟委員說明……"],["邱委員議瑩：不是只有查這家公司喔，我說的是假借淨零碳排開一大堆奇奇怪怪的課程……"],["李主任委員鎂：以淨零碳排招生也好，他說他邀請了什麼偉大的人，或是多麼專業的人，如果事實沒有，這個我們向來都會查，前一陣子還說是跟經濟部合作，或者跟其他單位合作，這個我們都會查，也有處罰的案例。"],["邱委員議瑩：都會查的意思是你們還沒有開始查，如果還沒有開始查，那什麼時候要開始查？"],["李主任委員鎂：以違法招生為例，我們有一件已經立案調查……"],["邱委員議瑩：已經有一件立案調查。"],["李主任委員鎂：再來，他用補習班的方式招生，同時也違反補習教育相關法令，我們跟教育部會有一個合作機制來遏阻這種不實的行為。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，主委，我現在提出的這些東西，其實我們過去都一直不斷的在強調，公平會很多時候是屬於被動的立場，有人檢舉你們才去查，你們很少會主動發掘、主動立案調查，我覺得這是公平會比較弱的地方，所以常常都是立法委員在這裡質詢，或者是你們接到誰的檢舉才開始調查，讓大家覺得公平會效能不彰，但公平會是不是真的效能不彰？就你們來說，你們其實做了很多事情，你也覺得很委屈嘛。","接下來我要問的這個大概會跟人事案有關，主委，您的任期到明年的1月31號任滿，對不對？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["邱委員議瑩：正常來講，立法院應該要在今年的10月底──行政院應該今年的10月底就要提名新的主委人選送到立法院來審查，不過現在我們得到的消息，我現在列出來的這個表格是會在今年年底或者是明年年初任期屆滿，需要立法院來行使人事同意權的部會。您的任期在明年的1月31號屆滿，我現在知道有國民黨的委員要提出來，不只是要杯葛，甚至任期屆滿之後，如果沒有通過人事同意權，他們就要刪除所謂的過渡條款，主委，您知道這個事情嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：我知道。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，那你們有沒有什麼因應措施？或者任期結束之後，你會直接就拍拍屁股走人？還是你們會有人留下來撐到人事同意權通過？假如立法院強行把所謂的過渡條款刪除的話，公平會能不能運作？該如何運作？怎麼樣持續運作？主委，請您說明一下。"],["李主任委員鎂：謝謝委員，我們有4位委員在明年1月底任期屆滿，所以現任的7位委員會剩3位。"],["邱委員議瑩：對。"],["李主任委員鎂：當時立法設計7個人就是大家各有專長跟經驗，好好執行我們應該做的工作，所以我還是希望這一屆的任期能夠如期舉行，如果沒有完成這個任命，第一個，7個人剩3個人，能不能集思廣益……"],["邱委員議瑩：也沒辦法開會吧？"],["李主任委員鎂：3個人如果有請假或者是有流會的情形，尤其是結合案件，我舉個例子好了，現在foodpanda正在結合……"],["邱委員議瑩：正在審議……"],["李主任委員鎂：正在結合申報，如果在法定期間內沒有做出決定，他們就可以結合，如果我們沒有足夠的委員人數，或者是法定人數不足，還是很少的人數做成決議，第一個，這個決議的內容是否周延是一個問題，假設流會或者是人員不足，這個案子結合……我們的結合是這樣子……"],["邱委員議瑩：如果過了這個審議期以後，你們沒有任何的裁處……"],["李主任委員鎂：沒有決定就是直接……"],["邱委員議瑩：沒有任何裁決的話，他們就是直接結合了嘛。"],["李主任委員鎂：是的。"],["邱委員議瑩：所以你現在要講的是，如果這樣的話，對於未來你們審查這樣的重大結合案件，其實會遇到相當大的……"],["李主任委員鎂：不管是結合案件或是違法的聯合限制競爭、不實廣告行為，在做決議的時候，執行上恐怕會有一些窒礙難行。"],["邱委員議瑩：其實公平會看起來不是有太大政治性的一個部會，但對於臺灣很多的公平交易事項或者違規、廣告不實事項等等，他其實是有重大裁決權的單位，所以我們當然也不希望大家用比較不理性的方式去刪除所謂的過渡條款，即使不能在任期屆滿之前完成人事同意權，但是我覺得所謂的過渡條款也不應該任意刪除，如果能夠在任期結束之前完成人事權的審查當然是最好，我想我們也會努力，但我覺得公平會你們自己也要有一套應對措施，或者是也要有一套說帖出來。","立法院的交戰常常是瞬息萬變，對於政務官來講、對於行政單位來說，你們其實也要有一套因應，未來這個單位要怎麼樣能夠運作下去，我覺得你們也要好好的去思考這個問題。"],["李主任委員鎂：好，謝謝。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，謝謝。"],["主席：請賴瑞隆委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":54,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-2","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","邱志偉","鍾佳濱","陳超明","洪孟楷","蔡易餘","羅智強","李坤城","王鴻薇","謝衣鳯","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請公平交易委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137901_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}