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你應該 你們工程會負責主管這個部分 現在用新的科技來幫忙抓幣你可以用AI的東西 現在國外都用採購機關用AI技術 你可以去識別重複的照片 或者去識別重複的檔案"},{"start":206.328,"end":214.684,"text":"甚至應該評估採用電子化的書面驗收啦設置一個系統去阻擋這種重複照片這種作弊的方式"},{"start":215.663,"end":242.662,"text":"也就是說現在AI是最夯的一個東西啊到處都在講AI那實際上政府應該要導入AI我給工程會做參考啦如果說制度上有缺失工程會會透過整個驗收的應該有的程序啊這不是制度上的缺失這個制度已經規範很久了而是說你技術上的問題啦你們現在下面那些各單位你們下面的主管應該很清楚啦用這種假照片用假書面來驗收的"},{"start":244.36,"end":244.84,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":257.165,"end":258.827,"text":"現在我們要來徵收公共工程這種碳費公共碳費的問題我們的公共建設要如何來因應"},{"start":283.956,"end":301.764,"text":"因為現在大家會擔心公共工程已經很難飆出去了因為人工物價上漲的問題那你現在在增加碳費那會不會造成營造工程的物價指數在上漲或成本多數人的成本誰來吸收"},{"start":303.454,"end":316.283,"text":"探費的徵收是環境部的業務的確是也有業者反應這方面委員剛才所指教的問題不過正在工程會的立場我們協助整個辦理機關在"},{"start":321.147,"end":347.124,"text":"公共工程的設計階段或者是在施工階段能夠達到相關的減碳的材料或減碳的減碳的措施讓政府的這個整個減碳目標能夠來完成第一個那我跟主委交換一下意見因為第一個我們最近的那個建材已經有一些上漲像水泥那些漲了10%水泥漲很多那你現在在在增多碳費的話"},{"start":348.584,"end":369.676,"text":"那勢必那營造商的成本也會增加嘛那重點是說如何計算不是只有成不是只有成本增加那這個碳備要如何估算如果以公共工程會現在提供的那個範本就是說你各項公共工程制定一個表公共工程節能減碳減核表他現在工程會現在公布這個表這個實在太簡單了啦"},{"start":374.434,"end":400.269,"text":"根本算不出來你碳費要多少他那個都是一個什麼是或否變成是非題啦你 這個 這個 這個表啊根本沒有辦法計算出需要多少碳費現在只有很少數的國營事業或者一些像水利工程等等他們有另外訂定比較可以計算出所謂的碳排量或者是他的所增加碳成本的"},{"start":402.449,"end":416.86,"text":"公共工程應該要引導各機關或者是引導業者那如何來定定計算一個公共工程的碳排量我們目前在收集整個碳排係數目前資料大概一千"},{"start":418.061,"end":445.498,"text":"一千一百個資料左右那收集完整之後在資料庫裡面會提供給各機關作為工程設計的使用就碳排系數可以換算成整個單項的碳排量那另外呢會建置一個估算系統這個估算系統就好像你一個工程有多少單項可以計算出應該有多少要多少費用多少預算所以將來透過這個估算系統可以估算整個碳排"},{"start":446.538,"end":454.024,"text":"謝謝主委這個舉例來英國2022年他就訂一個公共工程生命週期的探評局指引我覺得他這個設計非常簡單那業者或者"},{"start":459.06,"end":486.969,"text":"業主就是我們公務單位還有營造商兩雙方都很容易能夠來參照他就把一個工程概要以三個階段因為就規劃階段西部設計階段以及完工後的階段那你只要把你用的量的數字填進去他都可以幫你計算出你的碳排放大概可能跟主委你現在講的就是一個估算系統我們工程會在做的大概是差不多但這個應該要快因為什麼時候要開始徵收碳配10月吧"},{"start":488.854,"end":497.512,"text":"徵收碳費但是那匯率是下個月啊你下個月就要算了你這個系統還在建制這個月啊這個月啊"},{"start":499.234,"end":518.859,"text":"實業要開始算?這個碳費剛開始是前500碳牌大戶才徵收我們現在是針對每個公共工程可以能夠估算多少碳牌環境部大概定一個他說未來的碳費一般匯率標準大概一噸大概300到500塊"},{"start":521.622,"end":536.077,"text":"那你這樣一定會影響到這個業者的成本那過去也曾經說過那個工程會這工程會講的就你前任講的那麼你增加出來的這個減碳的成本那就是用物調"},{"start":537.418,"end":552.061,"text":"其實物條不是一個根本解決方式啦你應該還是要能夠以他能夠計算出就你剛剛講的工程會那個系統要趕快出來讓雙方業者跟營造商雙方可以計算出那你的碳成本到底多少"},{"start":552.802,"end":580.096,"text":"所以我們也在金職獎裡面新增包括利負利阿或能夠減碳的這些標準能夠增加碳費嘛所以能夠來抵減就能夠來平衡掉就是排碳的這個整個量阿謝謝主委我簡單因為我時間到了第一個就是你下個月要確定碳費以後工程會那麼應該要告訴我們你要如何因應碳費那麼造成營建物價的破動"},{"start":582.229,"end":589.5,"text":"這個委員因為公共工程已經很難標出去了再來現在比較麻煩的是已經執行已經招標已經決標或者開標中"},{"start":592.45,"end":619.926,"text":"還沒有確定得標的開標中的公共工程案那這些業者是否可以向機關要求增加預算因為你這些增出來的成本陳金德可以讓他做一個誤條嘛或者是預算的增加嘛但是新工程可能沒有問題啦因為你可以把碳拖出來的成本計算進去嘛所以你的預算計算沒有問題但是已經執行中的已經招標的決標的開標中的這些工程怎麼辦"},{"start":620.828,"end":624.651,"text":"主辦機關應該可以去橫走,要不要變更契約,或者是新增的公建案預算方面要重新考量"},{"start":641.707,"end":641.807,"text":"林俊憲議員"}]},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:12:13 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09:23:05","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":52,"blocks":[["林委員俊憲：（9時12分）謝謝主席，本席邀請陳金德主委，陳主委請上臺。"],["主席：請陳主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：林委員早。"],["林委員俊憲：主委早。主委，我給你看一個三年前我質詢的照片，三年前我質詢到我們的勞務採購，廠商履約的驗收被抓到很多造假，因為我們的勞務驗收可以用書面，關於這些照片，我現在就以臺南市為例，橋梁檢測系統不同時間、不同日期、不同地點，但是檢測的資料都是用同樣的照片，這個造假。","三年過去了，現在這種勞務驗收造假的狀況一樣層出不窮，我來給你看一個臺北市的例子，先講好，我剛給你看的是臺南市三年前的例子，臺北市外包公車亭的清潔，這個履約廠商驗收時一樣用造假的照片，不同日期、不同地點，但是同樣的照片，審計部也注意到這一點，就去抓了，審計部去抓的時候當然抽查比較大的勞務採購案，500萬以上的，它抓了117件，其中都是用照片來造假，不同日期但履約照片是一樣的，或者是根本不同地點的履約照片卻一樣，甚至不同年份的履約照片都是用同一張。","為什麼會有這種造假的狀況？為什麼那麼容易蒙混過關？第一個，因為勞務採購一年大概8萬6,000件，所以一般的業主就是各公務單位沒有辦法完全的驗收，因為太多件了，再來，勞務採購的規範裡面本來就有允許可以用書面驗收，但是書面驗收並沒有規範得很清楚說書面要用什麼樣的規範，或者是照片、檔案要用什麼，都沒有，就很粗糙，只有說用書面驗收，甚至可以要求廠商自主驗收、自主檢查，我現在已經發現這層出不窮，根本就造假作弊嘛！請教主委，像這種勞務採購一年8、9萬件要如何來防弊？"],["陳主任委員金德：謝謝委員。整個採購制度的驗收部分主要是主辦機關的權責，主辦機關如果有驗收不實，我想這個已經涉及違法，另外……"],["林委員俊憲：我聽完你意見，我看你還不是很了解這個問題。第一個，勞務採購本來它可以用書面來驗收，只是這些廠商會作弊，因為一年有8萬6,000件，各機關真的沒有能力，我現在建議你，你們工程會負責主管這個部分，現在可以用新的科技來幫忙抓弊，你可以用AI的東西，現在國外的採購機關都運用AI技術，可以去識別重複的照片或者去識別重複的檔案，甚至你要評估採用電子化的書面驗收，設置一個系統去阻擋重複照片這種作弊的方式，也就是說，現在AI是最夯的一個東西，到處都在講AI，實際上政府應該要導入AI，我是給工程會做參考啦！"],["陳主任委員金德：如果說制度上有缺失，工程會會透過整個驗收應該有的程序……"],["林委員俊憲：這不是制度上缺失，這個制度已經規範很久了，而是說你技術上有問題啦！你們現在下面各單位的那些主管應該很清楚，用這種假照片、假書面來驗收的有一大堆，很多鄉鎮公所抓不到，很多縣市政府也抓不到，因為太多件了，中央政府裡面一樣一大堆啦！你現在有新的科技的話，我們應該使用，這個是審計單位建議的，你看，因為國外都已經有使用這樣一個技術了，像這個技術也不困難啦！"],["陳主任委員金德：好，我們會要求各政府機關管理勞務採購驗收的部分必須透過新的科技來辦理。"],["林委員俊憲：好，謝謝主委。主委，我們即將要徵收公共工程這種碳費，關於公共工程碳費的問題，我們的公共建設要如何來因應？因為現在大家會擔心，公共工程已經很難標出去了，因為人工、物價上漲的問題，你現在再增加碳費，會不會造成營造工程的物價指數再上漲，多出來的成本誰來吸收？"],["陳主任委員金德：碳費的徵收是環境部的業務，的確也有業者反映這方面即委員剛才所指教的問題，不過站在工程會的立場，我們協助整個辦理機關在公共工程的設計階段或者是在施工階段能夠達到相關減碳的材料或措施，讓政府整個減碳目標能夠完成。"],["林委員俊憲：那我跟主委交換一下意見，第一個，最近建材已經有一些上漲，像水泥類就漲了10%，水泥類漲很多，你現在再徵收碳費的話，營造商的成本勢必也會增加，但重點是如何計算啦！不是只有成本增加，這個碳費要如何估算？如果以公共工程會現在提供的範本，就是各項公共工程制定一個公共工程節能減碳檢核表，工程會現在公布的這個表，這個太簡單了啦！根本算不出來碳費要多少，那都是什麼是或否，變成是非題，這個表根本沒有辦法計算出需要多少碳費，現在只有很少數的國營事業或者一些像水利工程等等，他們有另外訂定比較可以計算出所謂的碳排量或者是它增加的碳成本，工程會應該要引導各機關或者是業者，看要如何訂定計算公共工程的碳排量。"],["陳主任委員金德：我們目前在蒐集整個碳排係數，目前資料大概1,100個資料左右，蒐集完整之後會放在資料庫裡面提供給各機關作為工程設計的使用，碳排係數可以換算成單項的碳排量，另外還會建置一個估算系統，這個估算系統就好像一個工程有多少單項可以計算出應該要多少費用、多少預算，所以將來透過這個估算系統，可以去估算整個碳排。"],["林委員俊憲：沒有錯，謝謝主委。舉一個例子，英國2022年訂一個公共工程生命週期的碳評估指引，我覺得它這個設計非常簡單，讓業者或者業主，就是我們的公務單位還有營造商雙方都很容易能夠來參照，它就把一個工程概要為三個階段，就是規劃階段、細部設計階段以及完工後的階段，你只要把你用的量的數字填進去，它就可以幫你計算出你的碳排放，大概可能跟主委你現在講的……"],["陳主任委員金德：就是那個估算系統。"],["林委員俊憲：跟我們工程會在做的大概是差不多。"],["陳主任委員金德：對。"],["林委員俊憲：但這個應該要快啦！什麼時候要開始徵收碳費？10月吧？"],["陳主任委員金德：徵收碳費，但是它的費率……"],["林委員俊憲：是下個月啦，你下個月就要算了，你這個系統還在建置，喔，不是，是這個月，是不是10月要開始算？"],["陳主任委員金德：不，這個碳費剛開始是前五百的碳排大戶才徵收啦，我們現在是針對每個公共工程能夠估算多少碳排……"],["林委員俊憲：環境部大概有訂一個啦，它說未來碳費的一般費率標準大概一噸是300到500塊，這樣一定會影響到業者的成本嘛。過去工程會也曾經說過，這是你前任講的啦，增加出來的減碳成本就是用物調。其實物調不是一個根本解決的方式啦，你應該還是要能夠把它計算出，就是你剛剛講的工程會那個系統要趕快出來，讓業者跟營造商雙方可以計算出碳成本到底多少。"],["陳主任委員金德：所以我們也在金質獎裡面新增包括綠覆率或能夠減碳的這些標準，能夠增加碳匯嘛，所以能夠來抵減、平衡掉排碳的整個量啦。"],["林委員俊憲：好，謝謝主委。我簡單總結一下，因為我的時間到了。第一個，下個月確定碳費以後，工程會應該要告訴我們，你要如何因應碳費造成營建物價的波動，這個會影響，因為公共工程已經很難標出去了。再來，現在比較麻煩的是已經執行、已經招標、已經決標或者開標中（就是還沒有確定得標）的公共工程案，這些業者是否可以向機關要求增加預算？因為這些增出來的成本曾經答應可以讓它做一個物調或者是預算的增加嘛！新工程可能沒有問題啦，因為你可以把減碳多出來的成本計算進去嘛，所以你的預算計算沒有問題，但是已經執行中的、已經招標的、決標的、開標中的這些工程怎麼辦？"],["陳主任委員金德：我想這個主辦機關會去衡酌，看是……"],["林委員俊憲：現在大家在等工程會如何指導他們啦，你應該做一個全國性的規範吧？"],["陳主任委員金德：主辦機關應該可以去衡酌要不要變更契約，或者是新增的公建案的預算方面要重新考量。"],["林委員俊憲：現在很多地方單位會來問你們這個問題啦，好不好？工程會應該先把未來規範怎麼做的答案準備好啦！","好，謝謝主委，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝林俊憲委員質詢。","接下來邀請許智傑委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":350,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-3","speakers":["陳素月","林俊憲","許智傑","黃健豪","林沛祥","李昆澤","何欣純","廖先翔","魯明哲","邱若華","蔡其昌","林國成","游顥","徐富癸","黃國昌","洪孟楷","王美惠","廖偉翔","楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁","王鴻薇","陳俊宇","李柏毅","羅智強","鍾佳濱","陳冠廷"],"page_start":293,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137701_00013"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}