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請主委 請你主委委員長 主委 早上好我們今天這回來維護臺灣外送產業環境的整體利益決心今天剛才我之前在說的 我們要再積極一點這位來錄影 你最近有注意一個案子嗎九月份的時候 九月份的時候"},{"start":42.043,"end":70.242,"text":"護編打因為沒有提供外送員的強制汽車責任保險然後被台南市政府給他裁罰了你有注意到這個新聞嗎?有嘛齁後來台南市政府還敗訴因為換言之說他是保險不是屬於地方的自治的一個事項撤銷的原處分然後現在台南市政府要提上訴嘛齁我提到這個案子是因為護編打跟這個Uber Eats他順利如果結合以後會變成一個"},{"start":71.226,"end":96.508,"text":"一家獨大對不對那以後會不會變成很多地方的自治條例反而管不到他你有沒有思考過這個問題如果從比較積極面去想這個問題有想過這個事情嗎你看到這個新聞的時候有想到嗎一家獨大的時候會不會地方要管他們或者地方要求這個外送平台要做一些對外送員的保險啊保障啊更難做嗎對不對"},{"start":99.052,"end":102.415,"text":"主委我現在說的我把它鎖定在9月這個9月如果是連臺南市政府都敗訴了外送員"},{"start":128.167,"end":154.172,"text":"這個負邊島不讓他保嘛 對不對那以後如果變成兩家合在一起以後這個壓力會不會更大?反正更沒辦法去確保外送員的這個權利就是說地方政府或者是其他主管機關他要求外送平台做什麼事情他應該會有相關的這個法源依據或者是相關的這個行政措施那至於這些措施合以不合以有沒有一個法令的依據這就是另外一個行政偵測的過程"},{"start":156.024,"end":180.812,"text":"你公平交易法的宗旨叫你們的任務,來我們看一下,其實剛才你叫家俊會有那麼多的,不要講攻防,就是為什麼會,一個比較積,他一直在講說你不過積極面嘛。公平交易法裡面你有六大任務對不對?維護消費者保護利益,確保自由跟公平競爭,一二四五六都是很積極面的喔。"},{"start":182.53,"end":199.858,"text":"三跟四稍微比較消極面那這次的併鍋案裡面大家聽到說可能有三大影響所以那時候你曾經講過你公開講過對不對包括四個面向要去審查那為什麼我從九月份這個判決切進來你也可以說你不要管啊"},{"start":201.001,"end":202.022,"text":"我們對結合之後會產生的各種影響都有評估而且"},{"start":219.997,"end":247.852,"text":"在我們的這個申請裡面我們北中南全省各地都收集不見所以我們把它鎖定用這個用臺南市政府跟會不會打這個你覺得如果合併以後會不會外送員的潛力受到更大影響用這個為例子所以這個就是說結合以後對於外送員的這個不管是報酬或是價格這一方面我們都會處理至於保險就是說保險這件事情因為我不知道"},{"start":248.672,"end":267.264,"text":"你現在台南市政府要叫不定人嗎?如果是又更大的會不會更難叫?就是說他叫不定人是什麼事叫不定人不定人還是要聚集?如果是保險那這應該是看相關的法律怎麼適用這個新聞這個事件會不會影響到你們在決定要不要讓他合併的時候?如果以這個來看"},{"start":274.608,"end":279.312,"text":"對阿可是法院判決他輸了嘛我剛的意思就是說你現在決定他能不能合併嘛那只有單純就保險這個事情然後講合併以後難度一定更高嘛"},{"start":307.996,"end":324.082,"text":"來我們看一下所以才會講說你的積極的功能要發揮好不好來我們看下一張我剛剛主委有講了你們都已經開了很多公聽會對不對你們有在努力我們前陣子台灣民眾黨你看楊瓊英、楊偉炎、林國成、易軍他們我們也開了一個公聽會來我們來討論一下我們報告的內容來下一張"},{"start":331.377,"end":344.867,"text":"我們有學界跟專家跟民團因為他們在提醒至少有五件事情第一個兩大外送平台合併以後到底是誰得利這是大家最關心的第一個第二個合併以後如果外送平台片面去砍價"},{"start":346.107,"end":369.277,"text":"那外送員去申訴就會被停權嗎?目前這個已經在發生了就跟剛剛講保險事情是一樣的好那合併以後會不會潛入更大的損害?第三個 面對數位平台經濟的多邊性大者都獨大大者如果一直獨大資訊就不對稱了外送員受到演算法控制公平交易法的執行機關你到底有沒有去想過"},{"start":370.578,"end":392.035,"text":"你們有沒有足夠的量能去執法這個要好好想一下第4個現在公平交易法是不過因應要不要訂一個專法第5個日本他們本身是有最大的外送平台的所以他們叫做出錢館對不對那你們有沒有考慮在這個合併要不要併的時候考慮要不要我們台灣自己有個像日本的這個出錢館來我問4個很具體的問題來我們看一下迪雷"},{"start":397.287,"end":411.195,"text":"主委你回應過嘛,你說現在正在審查這些文件,只是後來資料不齊全對不對?剛剛很多委員問你的時候,你說資料又不齊全,到底放什麼資料?現在缺了什麼資料?我想跟委員說明,會時間這麼久"},{"start":414.215,"end":429.277,"text":"重大的結合案件本來時間就會很久比如說全年病大論發這各界也非常的有疑慮那越年越會要變病這個糖溶這個都是會花比較多的時間注意注意我們時間比較有限你們聚焦很清楚的講現在到底少了什麼資料"},{"start":430.333,"end":459.219,"text":"我們現在譬如說在將來的這個評估還有剛才您提到的結合的中效你這個結合對我們要評估說你的競爭利益你的經濟利益跟限制競爭的不利益那你這個結合有什麼經濟利益你綜合效果是什麼那譬如說剛才委員提到的那幾點那個就是有可能是限制競爭的不利益那你整個結合的中效是什麼我們希望他能夠要這些東西很好啊他怎麼拖那麼久沒有給你"},{"start":460.219,"end":488.593,"text":"因為第一個就是說他外商啦就外商他在這個資料的準備當中會需要跟外國總部其實可以靠時間因為外商你現在有壓力嗎沒有壓力你怎麼那你剛剛的問題都切中壓話你外商他要準備一些資料第一你跟他要哪些資料你剛剛回答得很好這個正常他就應該給你啊所以第一個結論他不應該再拖延這是第一個問題第二個我再問你有沒有壓力嘛"},{"start":488.933,"end":489.574,"text":"主委快一點好不好"},{"start":508.737,"end":533.894,"text":"另外你回應過嘛你說你這段時間會去徵詢利害關係人的意見對不對是包括餐廳、外送員、消費者還有相關的這個主管機關包括消保會跟勞動部我現在在網路上面有看到勞動部已經開了8次的會議了資料在網路上我也看到了可是沒有看到消保會跟利害關係人的會議紀錄你有跟那個消保會要這個資料嗎"},{"start":537.999,"end":549.206,"text":"我們有請小保會針對這個結合案提供意見小保會的意見有提供有齁那因為勞動部的都已經上網了他看不到你可以把這個紀錄給我嗎小保會的紀錄我會後了解一下提供給委員兩週內給我兩週內給我好不好最後一個問題"},{"start":562.369,"end":582.683,"text":"那天開公聽會 很多專家寫者都問到說 裡面一個最重要的關鍵是什麼特別是外送聯盟 你們到底準不準他合併 最重要的是相關市場的界定就你把它界定是不是就很單純的外送平台產業你們現在目前的界定是什麼 往哪個方向走 它很單純就是一個外送平台嗎"},{"start":586.253,"end":593.026,"text":"前一案是美食外送平台的市場接近那我們這個案子我們還要再評估甚至我們還要在委員會裡面會去討論"},{"start":595.258,"end":621.619,"text":"現在是很多專家寫者有擔心所以你那個相關市場界定要很明確好不好那我現在就是很明確的要求到你們到時候審的時候審以後的那個整個書面要公開透明給大家看好不好最後做一個總結我們希望第一個要阻止這個壟斷家具的勞工的這個剝削要保障勞工基本的這個潛力第二個要防止那個數據的壟斷危及這整個產業第三"},{"start":622.159,"end":622.7,"text":"主任委員會主席"}]},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:53:40 - 10:04:16","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請公平交易委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":266,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（9時53分）謝謝主席，請主委。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["李主任委員鎂：委員早。"],["張委員啓楷：主委早。我們今天一起來維護臺灣外送產業環境整體利益決心，就像剛才嘉郡說的，我們再積極一點，我們一起來努力。你最近有注意到一個案子嗎？9月份的時候，foodpanda因為沒有提供外送員的強制汽車責任保險，被臺南市政府裁罰了，你有注意到這個新聞嗎？有嘛！後來臺南市政府還敗訴，因為法院說保險不是屬於地方自治事項，因此撤銷原處分，然後現在臺南市政府要提上訴。我提到這個案子是因為foodpanda跟Uber 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Eats，地方政府能不能要求他保險？可以或不可以，其實現在就存在這個問題。"],["張委員啓楷：對啊，可是法院判決他輸了嘛！我剛才的意思就是，你現在要決定他能不能合併，如果單純就保險這個事情，老實講，合併以後難度一定更高嘛，對吧？點頭嘛！"],["李主任委員鎂：他的市占率會變高。"],["張委員啓楷：會變高嘛！會更難叫得動了，所以才會說你的積極的功能要發揮，好不好？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["張委員啓楷：剛剛主委有講，你們都已經開了很多公聽會，對不對？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["張委員啓楷：你們有在努力，前陣子台灣民眾黨，你看楊瓊瓔楊委員、林國成、憶君等等，我們也開了一個公聽會，我們來討論一下我們報告的內容。我們有學界、專家跟民團，他們在提醒至少有5件事情，第一個，兩大外送平臺合併以後，到底是誰得利？這是大家最關心的第一個。第二個，合併以後，如果外送平臺片面去砍價，外送員去申訴就會被停權嗎？目前這個已經在發生了，就跟剛剛講保險的事情是一樣的，合併以後會不會造成權利更大的損害？第三個，面對數位平臺經濟的多邊性，如果大者一直獨大，資訊就不對稱了，外送員受到演算法控制，公平交易法的執行機關到底有沒有去想過，你們有沒有足夠的量能去執法？這個要好好想一下。第四個，現在的公平交易法是不是不夠因應？要不要訂一個專法？第五個，日本本身是有最大的外送平臺，叫做「出前館」，當你們在考慮在這個合併案要不要併的時候，有沒有考慮過臺灣自己要不要有一個像日本的出前館？我問四個很具體的問題，來，我們看一下。","關於第一個，主委回應過嘛！你說現在正在審查這些文件，只是後來資料不齊全，剛剛很多委員問你的時候，你說資料還不齊全，到底現在缺了什麼資料？"],["李主任委員鎂：跟委員說明，時間之所以會這麼久，其實重大的結合案件本來時間就會很久，譬如說全聯併大潤發，這各界也非常地有疑慮，或是燁聯、燁輝要併唐榮，這個都會花比較多的時間。"],["張委員啓楷：主委，我們時間比較有限，你能不能聚焦、很清楚地講，現在到底少了什麼資料？"],["李主任委員鎂：譬如說在將來的評估，還有剛才您提到的……"],["張委員啓楷：不是，你現在叫他要補什麼資料？具體的，你現在要他補什麼資料？"],["李主任委員鎂：剛剛我有提到，包括結合的綜效，我們要評估他的經濟利益跟限制競爭的不利益、他這個結合有什麼經濟利益、他的綜合效果是什麼？譬如說，剛才委員提到的那幾點，那個就有可能是限制競爭的不利益，而他整個結合的綜效是什麼？我們希望他能夠……"],["張委員啓楷：所以你跟他要這些東西很好，他怎麼拖那麼久沒有給你？"],["李主任委員鎂：因為第一個，他是外商，外商在資料的準備當中會需要跟外國總部……"],["張委員啓楷：來，這就是我的第一個問題，因為是外商，所以你現在有壓力嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：沒有壓力。"],["張委員啓楷：你剛剛的問題都切中要害……"],["李主任委員鎂：他是外商，他要準備一些資料……"],["張委員啓楷：主委，聽我講。"],["李主任委員鎂：抱歉，我要接下去……"],["張委員啓楷：你跟他要哪些資料？你剛剛回答得很好，這個正常他就應該給你啊！所以第一個結論，他不應該再拖延，這是第一個問題。第二個，我就要問你有沒有壓力嘛？你說到外商……"],["李主任委員鎂：抱歉！容我講清楚，因為他是一個外商，他的律師代理人在準備這些資料，要跟國外總部花比較多的時間，在資料的準備上要經過國外總部的同意，我的外商是指這個，絕對沒有任何壓力。"],["張委員啓楷：我知道啦！主委，快一點，好不好？"],["李主任委員鎂：好。"],["張委員啓楷：另外，你回應過嘛！你說你這段時間會去徵詢利害關係人的意見，對不對？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["張委員啓楷：包括餐廳、外送員、消費者，還有相關的主管機關，包括消保會及勞動部，我現在在網路上面有看到，勞動部已經開了8次會議了，資料在網路上，我也看到了，可是沒有看到消保會跟利害關係人的會議紀錄，你有跟消保會要這個資料嗎？目前有嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們有請消保會針對這個結合案提供他們的意見。"],["張委員啓楷：意見有提供了嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：消保會有提供意見。"],["張委員啓楷：因為勞動部的都已經上網了，但它的看不到，你可以把這個紀錄給我嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：消保會的紀錄？"],["張委員啓楷：對。"],["李主任委員鎂：我會後了解一下再提供給委員。"],["張委員啓楷：OK，兩週內給我，好不好？","最後一個問題，那天開公聽會很多專家學者都問到，說裡面最重要的一個關鍵是什麼，特別是外送聯盟說你們到底准不准它合併最重要是相關市場的界定，就是你把它界定是不是很單純的外送平臺產業，你們現在的界定是往哪個方向走？它很單純就是一個外送平臺嗎？還是有些人提供不一樣的意見，要把它擴大？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們前一案是美食外送平臺的市場界定，那這個案子我們還要再評估，甚至我們還要在委員會裡面會去討論。"],["張委員啓楷：現在是很多專家學者擔心，所以相關市場界定要很明確，好不好？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["張委員啓楷：我現在就是很明確的要求，你們到時候審查的整個書面要公開、透明給大家看，好不好？","最後，我做一個總結，我們希望第一個要阻止這個壟斷加劇勞工的剝削，要保障勞工基本的權利。第二個，要防止數據的壟斷，危及整個產業。第三個，要維護公平市場的環境及促進創新。第四個，一定要促進臺灣外送平臺產業的整體利益，而且能夠永續發展。好不好？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["張委員啓楷：我剛剛要的資料，主委記得差不多兩個禮拜內要給我，好不好？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["張委員啓楷：好，謝謝。"],["主席：請鄭正鈐委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":54,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-2","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","邱志偉","鍾佳濱","陳超明","洪孟楷","蔡易餘","羅智強","李坤城","王鴻薇","謝衣鳯","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請公平交易委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137901_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}