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人事長早我跟莊委我們都很相宜的我們這個雙東雖然不是苦情姐妹但是命運跟社會所以希望我們這些公務人員的人力的充實尤其中央機關的派出人員一定要想辦法解決問題但是解決問題除了增加員額除了找到人出來還有其他的方法我們共同努力好不好你要跟財政部說的話我們可以做的來參悟"},{"start":39.816,"end":59.161,"text":"這位是你的課室嗎?好不好?好,謝謝來,我們來看一下其實呢,不只人兒、人兒要讓馬兒好,就要讓馬兒有草吃啦像我們這個課題,黨總預算,那軍公教到底加薪有沒有旺現在,這個我們的總預算被退回啊所以今天你來這邊只有業務報告,連預算報告都沒有招委排這個也很苦惱,來做一個業務報告而已那你覺得,軍公要調薪3%有沒有辦法發?"},{"start":68.199,"end":71.402,"text":"那如果真的都遙遙無期最後發的只能按照"},{"start":78.521,"end":87.049,"text":"明年只能按照今年的水平來發嗎?每年就沒辦法期待這個價錢啊我是安心給我服務所做 你說好喔 公務員調薪人就做得到喔 現在他們就玩樂了因為不只公務人員啦 因為很多的一些民間的機構"},{"start":102.663,"end":106.626,"text":"包括我屏東府的助理 我要跟他說軍公教條性我們照例是跟著調的 你看要怎樣"},{"start":109.656,"end":115.44,"text":"我們公部門也有使用勞基法的人員那公部門有沒有規劃這些人員也有什麼方式可以各機關去協議嗎 有沒有"},{"start":139.136,"end":150.524,"text":"我委員報告這個問題我們上面有討論過但是這裡面也牽涉到政府機關的還有國營事業的那你們開始著手去"},{"start":151.653,"end":152.473,"text":"了解了嗎?"},{"start":152.473,"end":153.594,"text":"去徵詢了沒有?"},{"start":153.594,"end":154.194,"text":"有有有有喔?"},{"start":154.194,"end":171.659,"text":"有就好 因為很多公務機關 他們適用下去發展的運動 他們很期待的啦是不是您可以 承諾一個時間 給我們一個初步的調查的結果我們到各地方機關也去努力一下 有沒有一個方向 要什麼人同意 還是要怎麼做"},{"start":172.819,"end":175.581,"text":"有風雄嗎?還是開始在想?我們這個拜市會邀請經濟部、交通部、國營事業我們處理的一部分是一部分我們處理"},{"start":188.59,"end":189.29,"text":"公務人員 職聘顧 國營事業"},{"start":207.316,"end":227.287,"text":"我看到今天下午2點你們又請這個卓院長要去主持三期機關的首長的一個AI共識營剛剛有委員關心這個AI啊總統賴總統有指示那你們覺得如果總預算目前明年總預算沒有辦法執行對於政府的效能還有你們所謂的輸出AI的用有沒有影響"},{"start":229.462,"end":232.445,"text":"所以這就是你現在講的AI很重視的AI是屬於新興計劃每年有什麼統計我們就沒辦法做"},{"start":251.084,"end":251.224,"text":"主席"},{"start":281.244,"end":284.027,"text":"我認為都有機會嘛 你想說你去現場查看以前我們是用人力嘛 所以一日可以去選一兩隻嘛"},{"start":302.402,"end":322.626,"text":"我如果去善用資訊科技因為我農業部有航測手續我會測量圖嘛然後無人機再會去然後產出的圖資做比對嘛所以滿足民眾的需求有很多種方法每一種方法都要用力去想好不好對啊那我再看我們政府有一種服務專項叫1999啦現在1999有時候民眾現在都關係比較重"},{"start":327.887,"end":352.121,"text":"那都爆滿那現在有的政府打算利用所謂的智能客服就是用AI人工智慧直接讓聊天機器人來面對1999撥打電話的民眾你覺得這可行嗎我覺得可行像美國有些公司他的客服全部都是靠那個智能客服在回應那你剛剛講到的個資外洩剛剛你在提到有委員諮詢說個資外洩那這個過程當中有沒有個資外洩的風險"},{"start":356.007,"end":364.058,"text":"如果台北市有民眾發生有學生用1999檢舉老師結果各自外洩呢?老師到時候哪個學生跟他告狀呢?"},{"start":365.407,"end":388.003,"text":"有沒有這個風險要考慮?我覺得這是內部管理的問題而不是整個系統的問題但是你們也要預先提防什麼人可以去看那些資料應該有一些授權嘛不是大家都可以去看那些資料啊這個其實是流程管理的問題啦我過去常常民眾怒氣沖沖的來找我啦說什麼危險檢舉啦他就問開端的人說要怎麼檢舉"},{"start":394.748,"end":416.176,"text":"欸真的有的承辦人還跟他講捏你就假扮出兵趴好館內啊沒人就給他檢舉民眾彼此之間這種檢舉非常傷感情公務機關秉公執法本來就應該連承辦人員在面對這種陰謀守密的檢舉的案件都有可能會洩密了那未來你們再相關用智能克服的資料非常小心管這個資可以嗎"},{"start":418.933,"end":438.393,"text":"現在我還有一個問題,其實我們AI客服1999其實可等於固定人他能夠運用電話清楚合理的表達自己的需求找到不管是真人來服務還是聊天機器人用AI客服來幫他服務,他們都能適應現在有些人他還是習慣臨櫃辦理,老大人"},{"start":440.715,"end":456.29,"text":"叫他點維工具部工美情策我們很多看到過去信用卡的call center就是這樣子啊辦個信用卡註銷點維工美情策一定要臨櫃那對於這些沒有辦法適應所謂智能客服的人他臨櫃辦理的時候你們有沒有想過怎麼樣提升他們服務的滿意度我舉例來講好了啦往下看"},{"start":462.15,"end":491.011,"text":"其實呢 民眾到聽不到啦 他到公務機關去辦理啦溝通出問題啦 或者說公務人員對法規的了解不完整 什麼意思?這個是民眾的問題 公務員沒了解你要說什麼第二個是 公務員知道他的問題 但是不同的公務員呢 理解有不同的出路來我們舉看看這裡喔 這個民眾A跟民眾B問同樣的問題 但是因為問法不同 可能會給到不同的答案 是不是這樣子?"},{"start":492.439,"end":508.084,"text":"有可能吧 包括AI人工智慧也是一樣嘛 你的問句不一樣 答案就可能不一樣嘛好 但是如果民眾同樣的問題 問張三跟李四兩個不同的承辦人員 林貴人員 結果給出不同的答案 這可以嗎"},{"start":509.997,"end":521.043,"text":"張山公務員跟李氏公務員面對同一個民眾他上週來問遇到張山 張山告訴他怎麼辦下週來問到李氏 李氏說不對要這樣辦當然公務員都用嘴巴講 口頭講我常常遇到民眾來陳情 常常跟我說他怎麼說怎麼說 我說不會吧 誰跟你說的他不知道 他怎麼說怎麼說 他有笑給你嗎"},{"start":538.234,"end":548.206,"text":"有可能民眾理解錯誤有可能答詢的公務員認知法令上有不一樣所以造成民眾很混淆那要怎麼樣去解決?要怎麼改觀?我認為可以訴求一種方式"},{"start":552.33,"end":572.464,"text":"一般的民眾去臨過的時針,他用語音輸入的時候,公務員的螢幕就跑出來這個文字,然後這個文字再檢視一下,說一句讓他聽,到最後沒問題,引出來,選名一個,簽名,一字回去,一字回去給那些白人再問一句,這樣才有一個依據"},{"start":582.57,"end":582.69,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":603.022,"end":630.889,"text":"對於同樣的問題的答案應該是同樣的這第一個 第二個同樣的答案確認過之後 輸出給民眾解釋給他聽他聽得懂聽不懂 其次至少他拿著這一張得到的答案他可以再問其他的人好不好 可以這樣做嗎那應該是請事務的事務發布人事總處你在推動AI導入你們這樣的共識 你要把這個東西講出去啊有時候AI不只是處理民眾的問題"},{"start":631.869,"end":632.189,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":649.945,"end":671.099,"text":"報個案只會拿三年單回來 造勢車禍紀錄填寫 起來通商也都沒有 所以這個部分你要求我們的公務員現場紀錄很辛苦 有沒有什麼方式可以減輕這些現場我們這個員警執勤同仁的負擔 不要讓他耗費太多時間在這文書作業 但是又能讓民眾可以拿到完整的說明 可以嗎"},{"start":672.427,"end":699.358,"text":"其實今天我有拜託檢證署張署長現在先22個縣市每一個縣市先找5個點來示範因為就是因為現在已經輸入也是很普遍而且正確率也蠻高的那事實上我們有推估過那個報案時間跟整個報案時間大概由原來的兩個多鐘頭可以收到答案所以已經在推了已經在示範了我不知道要進度因為我進度有"},{"start":702.359,"end":702.639,"text":"政府的資安專職人員嚴重不足"},{"start":720.148,"end":720.628,"text":"我想這個問題都普遍啦"},{"start":745.76,"end":773.57,"text":"中央跟地方不只是治安專職人員因為是找不到人怎麼對應這是一種有緣額但找不到人司法官也是一樣有緣額找不到人那解決的方法有緣額不足的我們有提供額外的緣額有辦法整決過老的問題最後找不到人的單位不管你是給他法官助理檢察官助理檢察事務官檢查這些終究要找到人那人事總署要協助用人機關"},{"start":774.93,"end":792.974,"text":"也在辦強迫請他們不只只是要緣額：給了緣額之後要把需要的人找到可以嗎想出解決方案我們一直都跟法務部跟司法院在溝通這個事要不要我們趙偉這邊安排一個大家聯席來研究一個方案不要說他們都沒人沒人沒人有兩種一種是沒緣額一種是讓你緣額你找沒人"},{"start":798.431,"end":798.912,"text":"主席主席"}]},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:55:40 - 10:09:19","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院人事行政總處人事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":381,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（9時55分）主席、在場委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請人事總處蘇人事長。"],["主席：請人事長。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：召委早。"],["鍾委員佳濱：人事長早。我跟莊委員都很有誠意，我們雙東雖然不是苦情姐妹花，但是命運連結在一起，所以希望我們這些公務人員人力的充實，尤其中央機關派駐人員一定要想辦法解決問題，但是解決問題除了增加員額，除了找到人之外，還有其他的方法，我們共同努力，好不好？你和財政部討論的時候，我們可以一起來參與，當你的靠山，這樣好不好？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好，謝謝。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們來看一下，其實不只員額問題，要讓馬兒好，就要讓馬兒有草吃，像這個課題「擋總預算，軍公教到底加薪有沒有望？」現在我們的總預算被退回，所以今天你來這邊只有業務報告，連預算報告都沒有，召委排這個也很苦惱，只有來做一個業務報告而已。你覺得軍公教調薪3%有沒有辦法發？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：總預算退回，大院沒有通過要怎麼發。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這會影響到嗎？如果真的都遙遙無期，最後明年只能按照今年的水平來發嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：如果沒有通過，明年就是按照今年的金額領。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以明年就沒有辦法期待加薪了，我已經跟我服務處的同仁講好了，公務員調薪我們就一起調薪，現在他們煩惱了，因為不是只有公務人員，很多的民間機構，包括我屏東服務處的助理，我也跟他們說軍公教調薪，我們照例是跟著調的，你看要怎麼辦？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：現在最好的就是早點通過，讓大家明年可以早點領。"],["鍾委員佳濱：因為就算軍公教調薪沒有通過，明年我的服務處照調，照樣調薪3%。接下來，另外一個小問題，其實勞基法剛剛三讀通過第五十四條，勞雇雙方可以協議延後退休，我們公部門也有適用勞基法的人員，公部門有沒有規劃這些人員也有什麼方式可以各機關去協議嗎？有嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員報告，這個問題我們上禮拜有討論過，但是這裡面也牽涉到政府機關，還有國營事業。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們開始著手去瞭解了嗎？去徵詢了沒有？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有就好，因為很多公務機關適用勞基法的這些員工，他們都很期待，你是不是可以承諾一個時間給我們一個初步調查的結果？我們到各地方機關也去努力一下，有沒有一個方向？要什麼人同意，還是要怎麼做，有方向嗎？還是開始在想了？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們星期四會邀請經濟部、交通部、國營事業，我們要處理的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：一個部分、一個部分處理。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：一塊是公務人員職聘僱，一個是國營事業。"],["鍾委員佳濱：因為廣義的公務機關當中適用勞基法的人員有很多種類型，你們一類、一類處理，星期四結果怎麼樣先讓我們知道，好不好？可以嗎？你們有一個初步結論先讓我們知道，好嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：沒問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：OK，謝謝。接下來我看到今天下午2點你們有請卓院長去主持三級機關首長的AI共識營，剛剛有委員關心AI，賴總統有指示，你們覺得如果明年總預算沒有辦法執行，對於政府的效能還有你們所謂的輸出AI應用有沒有影響？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這個可能會影響到一些部會。"],["鍾委員佳濱：明年的這個預算你們是編在新興計畫嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：明年的新興計畫可能……"],["鍾委員佳濱：AI輸出是不是編在新興計畫？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們會延後來辦理，因為預算沒有通過，我們就不可能……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你現在講的很重視的AI是屬於新興計畫，如果明年的預算沒有通過，我們就沒辦法做，是不是這樣？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：當然了，沒通過就沒錢可以做。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們就希望大家既然對於AI的輸出有共識，預算還是要趕快的務實來審議啦！","好，再請教一下，既然說AI是下個階段政府轉型的發展關鍵，我們政府機關導入AI後，有沒有可能會去調整到我們公務人員的員額？比如說剛剛莊委員跟我都很關心的，包括國產署他們的基層人員，到底我們對於國家土地的管理，除了員額編制增加，偏遠地區有沒有其他方法透過AI來幫助讓民眾的需求得到滿足，不要累積、積案，久久都沒去測量、沒去管理，有辦法嗎？有沒有幫助？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我覺得都有機會，在現場查勘以前我們是用人力，所以一天可以去巡一、兩件嘛！如果去善用資訊科技，因為農業部有航測所，它有測量圖，然後無人機再飛去，產出的圖資做比對……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以滿足民眾的需求有很多種方法，每種方法都要用力去想，好不好？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，再來看我們政府有1999服務專線，現在有時候民眾都習慣打電話，1999都爆滿，現在有的政府打算利用所謂的智能客服，就是用AI人工智慧直接讓聊天機器人來面對撥打1999電話的民眾，你覺得這可行嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我覺得可行，像美國有些公司它的客服全部都是靠智能客服在回應。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你剛剛講到的個資外洩，剛才委員質詢的時候你有提到個資外洩，這個過程當中有沒有個資外洩的風險？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：如果是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：臺北市發生有學生用1999檢舉老師，結果個資外洩，老師都知道是哪個學生給他告狀耶！有沒有這個風險要考慮？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我覺得這是內部管理的問題，而不是整個系統的問題……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，但是你們也要預先提防。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：管理好什麼人可以去看那些資料，應該有一些授權嘛！不是大家都可以去看那些資料。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這個其實是流程管理的問題啦！過去民眾常常怒氣沖沖的來找我說違建檢舉，他就問開單的人說是誰檢舉我的？真的有的承辦人還跟他講耶！叫他跟隔壁鄰居打好關係，不然人家就檢舉你。民眾彼此之間這種檢舉非常傷感情，公務機關秉公執法本來就應該，連承辦人員在面對這種應守密的檢舉案件都有可能會洩密了，未來你們在用相關智能客服都要非常小心管制個資，可以嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：現在我還有一個問題，其實打AI客服、1999電話的就是那些人，他能夠運用電話清楚、合理的表達自己的需求，找到不管是真人來服務還是聊天機器人用AI客服來幫他服務，他們都能適應。現在有些人還是習慣臨櫃辦理，老人家在電話裡講半天講不清楚。我看到過去很多信用卡的call center就是這樣子啊！辦個信用卡註銷，電話講不清楚，一定要臨櫃，對於這些沒有辦法適應所謂智能客服的人，他臨櫃辦理的時候，你們有沒有想過怎麼樣提升他們服務的滿意度？我舉例來講好了，民眾聽不懂，他到公務機關去辦理，溝通出問題，或者說公務人員對法規的了解不完整，什麼意思？一個是民眾的問題，公務員不了解你在說什麼；第二個是公務員知道他的問題，但是不同的公務員理解有不同的出入。來，我們看看這個例子，民眾A跟民眾B問同樣的問題，但是因為問法不同，可能會給到不同的答案，是不是這樣子？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是有可能。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有可能嘛！包括AI人工智慧也是一樣，你的問句不一樣，答案就可能不一樣。但是如果民眾同樣的問題，問張三跟李四兩個不同的承辦人員、臨櫃人員，結果給出不同的答案，這可以嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：基本上是避免這樣啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是避免啦！要怎麼防止嘛！張三公務員跟李四公務員面對同一個民眾，他上週來問遇到張三，張三告訴他說怎麼辦；下週來遇到李四，李四說不對，要這樣辦，當然公務員都用嘴巴講、口頭講啦！我常常遇到民眾來跟我陳情說他怎麼說、怎麼說，我說不會吧！誰跟你說的？他不知道。他是這樣說嗎？他有寫給你嗎？沒有，沒有寫給我，用嘴巴說的啊！有可能民眾理解錯誤，有可能答詢的公務員認知法令上有不一樣，所以造成民眾很混淆，那要怎麼樣去解決？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我覺得可以思考一種方式，一般的民眾去臨櫃用語音輸入的時候，公務員的螢幕就跑出來這個文字，然後這個文字再檢視一下，講一次給他聽，最後沒問題就印出來，跟他說明一下，簽個名，他帶回去，他帶回去給那些瞭解的人再問一次，這樣才有一個依據啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：你內行的啦！像我們委員、民意代表是懂的人，民眾常常困擾、需要救濟來找我們，他陳述的時候，第一個，他陳述不清楚；第二個，他在轉述公務員的答復的時候，他不能精確的轉述。所以我都跟他說你請那個公務員寫給你，如果照你這樣說，未來導入AI人工智慧，其實很重要的是什麼？首先要讓我們臨櫃的公務員對於同樣的問題，答案應該是同樣的，這第一個。第二個，同樣的答案確認無誤之後，輸出給民眾，解釋給他聽，他聽得懂、聽不懂其次，至少他拿著這一張得到的答案可以再問其他的人，好不好？可以這樣做嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：那應該是請數位部來……"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是，你們人事總處在推動AI導入，你們的共識要把這個東西講出去啊！有時候AI不只是處理民眾的問題，AI也是要統整我們公務人員對法令理解一致性的問題，這樣好不好？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這樣我下午再來講一下。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，拜託你。","最後，你們提到說希望各種紀錄的業務導入AI來減輕負擔，其實現在最嚴重的就是什麼？我們的員警同仁，報個案只會拿三聯單回來，肇事車禍紀錄填寫什麼都沒有，所以這個部分我們的公務人員現場紀錄很辛苦，有沒有什麼方式可以減輕這些現場員警、執勤同仁的負擔？不要讓他耗費太多時間在文書作業，但是又能讓民眾可以拿到完整的說明，可以嗎？有沒有什麼作法？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：其實這件事我有拜託警政署張署長，現在22個縣市每一個縣市先找5個點來試辦，因為現在語音輸入也是很普遍，而且正確率也蠻高的。事實上，我們有推估過整個報案時間大概由原來的兩個多鐘頭，可以縮短……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以已經在推了、已經在試辦了？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我不知道進度，因為……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那我來問一下，要求一下警政署，這個很好啊！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這樣警察一個案子也不用忙那麼久……"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，我覺得很好。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：老百姓去報個案也不用在那邊坐那麼久。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，要導入AI。","最後，政府的資安專職人員嚴重不足，是編制不夠還是找不到人？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：編制我們都有給它啊……"],["鍾委員佳濱：找不到人？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：人就是難找……"],["鍾委員佳濱：難找？薪水太低、待遇不好？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：也不能這樣說，因為針對資安我們每一個月都有給他增支專業加給3,000或5,000，然後也有一些獎金，甚至他們還在規劃久留，如果留一個機關多做幾年，可以再領一筆錢。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我想這個問題都普遍，中央跟地方不只是資安專職人員找不到人，怎麼應對？這是一種，有員額但找不到人，司法官也是一樣，有員額但找不到人。解決的方法，員額不足的我們有提供額外的員額，有沒有辦法解決過勞的問題？最後，找不到人的單位，不管你是給他法官助理、檢察官助理、檢察事務官，這些終究要找得到人，人事總處要協助用人機關，也是半強迫，請他們不只是要員額，給了員額之後，要把需要的人找到，可以嗎？想出解決方案。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們一直都跟法務部、司法院在溝通這個事。"],["鍾委員佳濱：要不要我們召委這邊安排大家聯席來研究一個方案？不要他們都說沒人、沒人，沒人有兩種，一種是沒員額，一種是有給你員額但找不到人，要不要？需不需要？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：檢察官的部分，其實我們有建議說錄取的人要多一倍，因為從提缺到訓練完大概要3年……"],["鍾委員佳濱：請把你們的建議臚列個書面給我，我來找相關的部會共同來研議，好不好？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員。接下來請沈發惠委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":334,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-2","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","羅智強","林思銘","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","傅崐萁","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","吳宗憲","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴士葆","楊瓊瓔","黃健豪","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","謝龍介","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":277,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院人事行政總處人事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137801_00011"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}