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主委你剛剛講的我都可以跟你講黑海哥在蘇克兩個最大的外送平台現在光跟我們服務處不要說跟你們了服務處 很多的一個所謂服務案件的申訴大量刮開了所以我們認為你們的態度一直讓大家不清不楚不明不白"},{"start":209.667,"end":211.608,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":234.124,"end":234.844,"text":"我們的餐飲業者呢"},{"start":263.544,"end":288.641,"text":"餐飲業者疑慮是什麼這個抽成的%會不會提高這是餐飲業對阿抽成%會不會提高阿一定嘛因為剩一間嘛剩一間而已嘛而且大家要擠到這個窄門嘛他是不是會把條件拉高一定嘛條件拉高誰受害誰受害"},{"start":289.91,"end":315.399,"text":"業者受害消費者也受害因為業者會轉嫁在消費者身上就這麼簡單所以公平交易會造成多大的恐慌再來咧消費者的疑慮呢成本增加這個消費的這個成本也會增高是啊"},{"start":317.498,"end":333.237,"text":"是啊所以消費者所擔心全部公盲都吃掉在餐飲業者身上所增加的在外送員身上所增加的全部就轉嫁在消費者身上就這樣啊所以"},{"start":338.612,"end":363.421,"text":"外送平台剛好這三主要扮演角色外送員、餐飲業者、消費者這三個重點都跟你說如果合併之後公盲到期會面臨的狀況就是這麼嚴重所以如果我們公平會的態度沒有拉出來"},{"start":364.901,"end":391.153,"text":"當然大家就會質疑啊所以主委我覺得我們台獨要跟我請測不過委員我們程序還是要照法定程序當然法定程序就是說你申報結合那你程序不齊備還是要通知法這些人就齊備才能進入審議的程序主委你們都是公廷署所以所有的人民才會覺得公平會在幹什麼"},{"start":392.438,"end":414.939,"text":"你們在講程序的同時要把你的原則一併提到就是你外送平台你有權利依照程序來申辦這樣的一個合併可是我公平會一樣我會依照哪幾個原則嚴格審慎來審議這樣的一個合併案"},{"start":419.042,"end":446.277,"text":"如果你這兩個很清楚把它在一個平台當中正確的讓媒體知道誰會質疑你公平會的態度你公平會一直都講程序我們也一直談我們審查的面向就是剛才委員提到的這幾點這個我們審查的你是有問才講啊有問才講啊你們對外講都說他沒送進來他還沒送進來"},{"start":449.298,"end":463.597,"text":"以為還沒送進來就沒你的事還沒送進來是他程序還沒送進來不代表他沒在做相關的動作所以你更應該把你的態度公平會的態度拿高"},{"start":464.881,"end":490.802,"text":"所以為什麼我們每一次在公平會在做質詢在做預算審查的時候我們對公平會有那麼多的意見是因為你們的態度都不明你們態度都曖昧讓民眾很擔心讓消費者很擔心而且每一次所提到的任何正義性的問題你們最後都查無證據來結案"},{"start":492.924,"end":521.032,"text":"那民眾要你們幹什麼?好 再一個主委你如果加強要查緝 廣告不實的部分現在所有的媒體越來越多不同的一些宣傳手法那在這個部分廣告不實其實會造成很多消費者的損害"},{"start":522.432,"end":522.752,"text":"主動嗎?來,你們今年主動查了幾件?"},{"start":546.176,"end":547.236,"text":"910件 910件 這個比例也差太多了吧"},{"start":565.241,"end":586.861,"text":"人家檢舉910件 你們才主動查110件好 你們110件主動查查的總共有幾件 有處分我們去網路監控有一萬多件那看出來有問題的我們去查的主動的有一千多件一萬多件 然後最後釐清之後算"},{"start":587.882,"end":589.102,"text":"請問有幾件處分?大概40件左右"},{"start":617.051,"end":632.618,"text":"所以嘛你看喔查控從網路查查一萬多件最後一千多件最後正式立案110件最後有處分的40件這什麼受理啊"},{"start":634.189,"end":634.749,"text":"910件民眾檢舉請問最後處分有幾件"},{"start":654.715,"end":666.323,"text":"今年查的今年還在就是今年處理的今年還在查是所以今年900億之間都是今年的嗎我們我們剛提到是說今年收辦的有"},{"start":667.674,"end":669.735,"text":"910件目前還在查而且已經有處分的"},{"start":688.291,"end":690.112,"text":"10月份,今天是9月30號,剩10月11、12,所以現在1000多件才處分40件"},{"start":711.072,"end":737.908,"text":"我剛剛還這個錯誤的訊息喔本來以為110件處分40件現在不是喔是1000多件處分40件喔是這樣嗎一個是收辦的案件一個是處分的案件喔對啊就是1000多件處分40件嘛不是110件處分40件那我們收辦的案件喔所以你們自己也搞不清楚嗎你把資料再送到我辦公室"},{"start":739.429,"end":744.443,"text":"你們這個比例差太多了 難怪民眾會對我們沒信心了 謝謝"}]},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:26:03 - 10:38:29","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請公平交易委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":458,"blocks":[["陳委員亭妃：（10時26分）謝謝召委。我們請公平會主委。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["陳委員亭妃：主委，剛剛大家一直針對外送平臺併購案對你有一些提問，但是在聽了你剛剛的回應，讓我們不免有些擔心，你們對於外送平臺併購案的態度到底是什麼？你一直說還沒送進來、還沒送進來，所以還沒入案。不是，是你們的態度，你們要先讓外界知道你們審這個案子的態度是什麼！所以不是案子送不送進來，而是你們的態度要很明確，要跟大家說會堅持哪幾個原則，這樣才對，讓消費者、還有相關產業或餐飲業者，甚至對一些爭議性部分，讓他們知道該怎麼做。現在原則到底是什麼？"],["李主任委員鎂：跟委員回報，這個案子各界矚目，所以我們的態度一定要很審慎、嚴謹……"],["陳委員亭妃：怎麼審慎？要朝哪幾個方向審慎？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們要評估結合後對整個經濟的影響，包括是不是有抬價的能力？包括潛在競爭者能不能參與競爭？包括餐廳、外送員、消費者的影響，或其他同業聯合的可能性，這些都要非常慎重來評估。"],["陳委員亭妃：如果有呢？有的話你們就不會同意？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們會綜合評估經濟利益跟限制競爭不利益，如果負大於正，就沒有辦法准。所以這些是要經過，包括市場界定的評估……"],["陳委員亭妃：其實你剛剛講的那幾點基本上都不用再問了。今天兩個最大的外送平臺商結合之後不會壟斷？所有消費者的權益不會受損？餐飲業者不會受損？怎麼可能！現在是因為有競爭，所以很多消費爭議不得不處理；現在有競爭，消費爭議還處理得零零落落，一旦沒有競爭，消費爭議誰理你？你要來就來啊，不要就算了，會不會這個樣子？主委，你剛剛講的我都可以告訴你，所以還需要思考嗎？現在針對兩個最大外送平臺服務案件的申訴，不要說跟你們，光跟我們服務處申訴的就很多，大家都說怎麼會這樣？你們的態度讓大家不清不楚、不明不白，才會搞得大家覺得公平會會不會最後就這樣唬弄過了？","主委，就外送平臺的部分，外送員最大的疑慮是什麼？最大疑慮是什麼？"],["李主任委員鎂：擔心將來勞動條件會比較差。"],["陳委員亭妃：是啊！一定嘛！有競爭跟沒有競爭，勞動條件會不會比較差？一定嘛！如果想進到這個外送平臺，而且只有一家，沒有競爭力，孤門獨市，當然是要來就來，不要就算了，這樣勞動條件會不會更差？一定嘛！","再來，餐飲業者呢？餐飲業者的疑慮是什麼？"],["李主任委員鎂：抽成的趴數會不會提高？這是餐飲業最擔心……"],["陳委員亭妃：對，抽成趴數會不會提高？一定嘛，因為剩一間啊，就剩一間而已，而且大家又擠到這個窄門來，他是不是會把條件拉高？一定嘛！條件拉高，誰受害？誰受害？業者受害，消費者也受害，因為業者會轉嫁到消費者身上，就這麼簡單。所以孤門獨市的外送平臺會造成多大恐慌？","另外，消費者的疑慮呢？"],["李主任委員鎂：成本增加，消費的成本也會增高。"],["陳委員亭妃：是啊，是啊！所以消費者擔心孤門獨市後，餐飲業者身上所增加的、外送員身上所增加的，會全部轉嫁在消費者身上，就這樣啊！對這三個主要角色：外送員、餐飲業者、消費者這三個重點都跟你說，如果合併之後，孤門獨市會面臨的狀況就是這麼嚴重，所以如果公平會的態度沒有拉出來，當然大家就會質疑啊！所以主委，我覺得我們的態度要說清楚。"],["李主任委員鎂：不過委員，我們程序還是要照法定程序做。"],["陳委員亭妃：當然，法定程序……"],["李主任委員鎂：如果申報結合，但你程序不齊備，還是要通知把這些文件齊備，才能進入審議的程序。"],["陳委員亭妃：主委，你們就是都在講程序，所以所有的人民才會覺得公平會在幹什麼，你們在講程序的同時，應該要把你的原則一併提到，就是外送平臺有權利依照程序來申辦這樣的一個合併，可是公平會一樣，我會依照哪幾個原則嚴格、審慎來審議這樣的一個合併案。如果你這兩個很清楚，把它在一個平臺當中，正確的讓媒體知道，誰會質疑你公平會的態度？你公平會一直都講程序！"],["李主任委員鎂：我們也一直談我們審查的面向，就是剛才委員提到的這幾點，這個我們審查的重點在哪裡，都有說明……"],["陳委員亭妃：你是有問才有講啦，有問才講啦，你們對外都說「他沒送進來，他還沒送進來」，你以為還沒送進來就沒你們的事情嗎？還沒送進來，是他程序還沒送進來，不代表他沒在做相關的動作，所以你更應該把你的態度，公平會的態度拿高。所以為什麼我們每一次針對公平會在做質詢，在做預算審查的時候，我們對公平會有那麼多的意見，是因為你們的態度都不明，你們的態度都曖昧，讓民眾很擔心，讓消費者很擔心，而且每一次所提到的任何爭議性的問題，你們最後都查無證據來結案，那民眾要你們幹什麼？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們還是有一些有查到，有處罰的……"],["陳委員亭妃：民眾要你們幹什麼？","好，再一個。主委，你如何加強查緝廣告不實的部分，現在所有的媒體越來越多不同的宣傳手法，在這個部分廣告不實，其實會造成很多消費者的損害，那這怎麼辦？怎麼辦？"],["李主任委員鎂：其實對於廣告不實，一直都是我們查緝的重點，譬如我們有專案的網路監控，看到不實廣告，如果覺得它有可疑就立案調查，所以剛才委員po出來……"],["陳委員亭妃：主動嗎？主動嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：是主動。"],["陳委員亭妃：來，你們今年主動查了幾件？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們一年大概有一百多件。"],["陳委員亭妃：主動？我說的是主動，不是檢舉喔！主動。"],["李主任委員鎂：以今年來看，110件左右，這是主動去查的。"],["陳委員亭妃：110件主動？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：好，那檢舉部分呢？"],["李主任委員鎂：910件。"],["陳委員亭妃：910件，這個比例也差太多了吧！"],["李主任委員鎂：當然……"],["陳委員亭妃：人家檢舉910件，你們才主動查110件！"],["李主任委員鎂：我們去查，看到的有一千多件。"],["陳委員亭妃：好，你們110件當中，主動查察的總共有幾件有處分？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們去網路監控有一萬多件，看出來有問題的，我們去去查的、主動的有一千多件。"],["陳委員亭妃：對嘛，一萬多件，然後最後釐清之後算，最後的數字是110件，主動的嘛。一萬多件，然後在釐清的時候變一千多件，然後最後到了真正主動處理就是110件，好，這110件，最後……"],["李主任委員鎂：這是立案去查的。"],["陳委員亭妃：立案去查嘛，對不對？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：立案去查，還不一定有結果喔。"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：來，立案調查110件，你們主動立案調查110件，請問有幾件處分？"],["李主任委員鎂：大概40件左右。"],["陳委員亭妃：對嘛，所以嘛，你看喔，查控從網路查察一萬多件，最後一千多件，最後正式立案110件，最後有處分的40件，這是什麼數字啊？"],["李主任委員鎂：報告委員……"],["陳委員亭妃：主委，我為什麼用這個數字跟你分析？這就是公平會不受到人民信任最重要的原因跟因素。","好，那910件民眾檢舉的部分，請問最後處分的有幾件？"],["李主任委員鎂：今年查的今年還在……就是今年處理的今年還在查，所以今年的數據……"],["陳委員亭妃：910件都是今年的嘛。"],["李主任委員鎂：我們剛剛提到的是說，今年收辦的有一千多件，其中檢舉的有九百多件，主動的有一百多件，但是案子今年收還在查，還在蒐證，我們必要有這個查證的過程，所以結果今年還沒有出來。"],["陳委員亭妃：那910件目前還在查，而且已經有處分的……"],["李主任委員鎂：已經做，應該是說，今年做的處分有40件，當然今年收的案子有沒有處罰，要明年才能夠算出來，這是一個滾動的情況。"],["陳委員亭妃：10月份喔，今天是9月30號，剩下10月、11、12月，所以現在一千多件才處分40件，對不對？剛剛還是錯誤的訊息喔！本來以為110件處分40件，現在不是喔，是一千多件處分40件喔，是這樣嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：一個是收辦的案件，一個是處分的案件。"],["陳委員亭妃：對啊，就是一千多件處分40件嘛，不是110件處分40件啊。"],["李主任委員鎂：那我們收辦的案件不是說收的都一定都是不實廣告，是有合理懷疑……"],["陳委員亭妃：所以你們自己也搞不清楚嘛，你把資料再送到我辦公室，然後你們這個比例差太多了，難怪民眾會對你們沒信心，謝謝。"],["主席：請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":54,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-2","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","邱志偉","鍾佳濱","陳超明","洪孟楷","蔡易餘","羅智強","李坤城","王鴻薇","謝衣鳯","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請公平交易委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137901_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}