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終於覺得青睞你了嘛 因為你說的比較好 我青睞你 而且中間是系統廠商的優勢是最重要的系統廠商到底可以做什麼樣的一個部分 安全怎麼樣 講得特別多 那你跟一個做車體的 現在主標的廠商是主要做車體的"},{"start":319.204,"end":319.224,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":329.335,"end":352.12,"text":"你這個東西不是說合不合法令的問題是說我的天啊我們精挑細選在我們採購法在工程會的一個領域我們設計的制度設計到底出了問題沒有我們花這麼大精力上網招標也寫了這麼多的說明服務建議書然後請了這麼多的專家學者難道失靈了嗎"},{"start":353.32,"end":357.824,"text":"主委其實這種新科技的產品我覺得它嚴重程度尤其這種公共運輸我覺得你覺得像這樣的做法"},{"start":373.476,"end":374.197,"text":"委員會主任委員會主管"},{"start":394.356,"end":419.867,"text":"針對這個案要求淘機公司來說明原因具體的去了解有沒有符合政府採購法他得以更換分包廠商的這樣的條件或者是會不會影響到剛才委員所說的影響到整個將來營運的品質因為系統廠商出問題就表示你當時提的proposal你當時服務介意書有關系統的部分其實有一部分"},{"start":420.307,"end":445.016,"text":"都不是真的因為廠商都換人了還要第二個來驗證你的服務建議書我們要按照服務建議書來履約那他到底是不是真的不是我寫的我跟你講這真的是一團亂但是我在這裡鄭重拜託就像T3一樣這個問題不亞於T3行下的一個建築我希望你不光是監督我希望以你們的專業去幫忙好不好去幫忙他們要來去解決這個複雜的問題為什麼呢服務建議書假設"},{"start":448.837,"end":474.53,"text":"是他的分包廠商在法院都有公證的他不讓他不讓然後咧你下一家要來那好你不要按照我的服務建議書這是我的喔我的know how這中間後面的一些問題第一個你會變成一個尷尬的問題T3硬體終於完工了中間串接的運輸體系差時間差很多所以這個部分我要拜託你介入一下好不好好幫忙一下那第二個因為時間的關係喔"},{"start":477.093,"end":477.373,"text":"李立立委員"},{"start":496.314,"end":497.595,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":517.133,"end":541.338,"text":"想一想好吧既然是實驗嘛國家總是要實驗可是這幾年看到2021年他已經進入台鐵了因為沒有人管啊我研究不出來不成功so what不重要啊我政府的錢照領啊當你一些委託或者試行這個案件我就算了你到2021開始介入台鐵台鐵多元通信的這個行控4.0啊"},{"start":542.458,"end":569.558,"text":"坦白講很多的交通專業的外面的學者都嚇到結果他當時說我們台灣要創新全世界第一唯一自己的一個行控安全系統發生兩次大車禍有人這樣說理論上聽起來是好事可是你的廠商呢他說我在美國某一個城市做過了這個相關的自駕什麼一個系統結果我們通過了"},{"start":570.999,"end":600.094,"text":"運安會去查我們透過了外交部去查甚至有委員直接寫給那個城市查無此事查無此公司在台灣耀武揚威東騙西騙上了一大堆的節目好這個部分本來2021年行共4.0這只是初步的計畫也是找一貫鐵路來跑跑看花了5600多萬然後事實上後面還有非常大的計畫就被叫停了叫停了"},{"start":600.774,"end":612.394,"text":"今年的4月2號我們的這個運安會說他說實話他這個根本不可行啊這根本不能用啊講得很難聽啊所以我的問題點是說"},{"start":615.458,"end":642.301,"text":"我們的政府就算是財力很好也不能這樣的玩啊不能這樣玩他弄完之後沒事啊該領的錢走了那我們就發覺現在因為沒事嘛我就賺5600扣掉成本我就賺嘛系統software比較看不太到嘛所以我就賺了嘛那接下來賺哪一條呢就賺機場三行價PMS自家系統嘛我再來賺一條嘛對不對"},{"start":644.002,"end":644.102,"text":"主席"},{"start":660.049,"end":676.615,"text":"我希望換得到 因為這家廠商我是真的很怕 所以我希望你去介入的原因是說這是一個人民的安全 而且是我們國家的門面 如果說在這樣的搞下去的話這是一個很大的問題"},{"start":677.415,"end":677.895,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":698.63,"end":698.81,"text":"主席"},{"start":719.289,"end":719.409,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":733.724,"end":734.365,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":752.254,"end":773.753,"text":"採購法對於很多委員都問了嘛總諮詢院委員問了嘛所以這樣的一直在擦邊球我不知道廠商有問題廠商有問題不合格的廠商我們把它叫做這個渣男廠商好了奇怪可是渣男廠商也要有一個渣男吸鐵啊為什麼這些採購的單位老是"},{"start":774.474,"end":774.935,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":793.777,"end":794.117,"text":"魯明哲召委"}]},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:39:43 - 10:53:22","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":432,"blocks":[["魯委員明哲：（10時39分）謝謝召委，有請我們工程會陳主委。"],["主席：請陳主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員早。"],["魯委員明哲：陳主委，今天最主要跟你來談一下，桃機公司從T3開始，這一路風風雨雨遇到很多的困難，我發覺工程會在後面就變成救火隊，包括了招標的過程，前一任主委乾脆來主導整個三航廈，中間很多的困難逐步去幫忙，這個是我們在上一屆的一個重點，好不容易把建築物的問題大致解決，結果又來了T3的問題，解決沒有？他們不嫌問題多啦！","現在大家要進出T3，除了車子載到門口的之外，在航廈之間串接的部分，他們要用自駕，招標了17億，一般其他的國家，甚至我們一、二航廈，都是用軌道載運來串接航廈，現在我們要使用比較新的方式、新的科技，我們如果有能力，我是沒有意見，招標了17億，變成了T3PMS，等於用電動自駕大巴來進行接駁，結果在7月份出了一個新聞說，這個得標團隊得標之後不到半年就準備換裡面最重要的一個部分，我看到這個新聞，我相信你應該也有聽到這個消息，你應該更清楚，但是我跟你講一般民眾擔心什麼事呢？要蓋T3的原因是因為政府告訴我們未來整個機場的吞吐量大概是到5,000萬人次，甚至最高的容量到8,000萬人次，這是機場公司說的，那麼平均每一天透過接駁系統接駁的人數是非常非常高的，所以第一個，不能開玩笑，大家都期待我們的技術是不是成熟？第二個，這個案子標出去有沒有委託到一個成熟的單位？民眾這樣的想法你覺得合理嗎？你對這個案子的了解程度如何？"],["陳主任委員金德：我在總質詢的時候有聆聽過委員的質詢，在總質詢的時候也是提到這個案子，這個得標廠商得標之後變更分包廠商，這個變更我想政府採購法有一定的條件，必須滿足這個條件，而且要這個辦理機關（應該是桃機公司）的同意才可以，我想我能夠理解的就是政府採購法在這一方面比較有嚴格的規定。"],["魯委員明哲：這個東西不是蓋房子，簡單來講，我們今天在談一個標案，如果是做個公園，換個水電廠商，我們知道太多人會做了，不敢講說幾十萬個，只要有幾萬個合格包商，而且國家都把它分好了，甚至建築，你是甲級、什麼級的，一清二楚，隨便找都有。可是我們在談的是，我覺得現在工程會真的要注意，有很多新的科技、新的願景、新的目標，就擺明說今天我要換或者不換，市場上沒有幾個人會的這種東西，你要換廠商跟一般的工程換廠商是完全兩碼事，我必須要講，這個新的東西為什麼大家擔心？擔心的原因是，就像軌道一樣，你會做車體，我相信你對車體的專業，可是單有車體車不會開，也不會回傳到指揮中心說哪輛車到站了沒有、有沒有接觸、有沒有危險，所以系統是所有軌道的靈魂，而它今天要換的是系統廠商。","簡單來講，我們在招標的過程，來的廠商一組一組講得滿嘴泡沫，經驗多少、歷練多少，你們放心交給我，我的系統廠商多強、多棒，弄完之後百分之百滿意，不光是快速、安全，講了整片，人家三個團隊，終於青睞你了，因為你說得比較好，我青睞你，而且中間系統廠商的優勢是最重要的，系統廠商到底可以做什麼樣的部分、安全怎麼樣，它講的特別多，而現在主標的廠商主要是做車體的，當然就是電動大巴，那怎麼樣去動、怎麼樣去接客人，二、三航廈中間會不會有另外的航廈等等，我覺得這個不是說合不合法令的問題，是說我的天啊！我們精挑細選，在採購法、在工程會的領域我們的制度設計到底有沒有出了問題？我們花了這麼大的精力上網招標，也寫了這麼多的說明、服務建議書，然後請了這麼多的專家學者，難道失靈了嗎？聽了半天，選了一家，說這一家好，結果你才講完讚，手還沒收回來，它要換人了。主委，其實這種新科技的產品，尤其是這種公共運輸，像這樣的做法你覺得妥不妥當？就以廠商來說。"],["陳主任委員金德：因為T3是國家的重要公建計畫，每一個環節、每一個設備都希望符合一定的設計水準，本案我想會請工程會主管針對這個案子要求桃機公司來說明原因，我們會具體的去了解有沒有符合政府採購法得以更換分包廠商的條件，或者是會不會如剛才委員所說的影響到將來整個營運的品質。"],["魯委員明哲：好，因為系統廠商出問題就表示它當時提的proposal、當時的服務建議書有關系統的部分其實有一部分都不是真的，因為廠商都換人了，第二個還要驗證它的服務建議書，要按照服務建議書來履約，但它到底是不是真的？不是我寫的，我跟你講，這真的是一團亂，但是我在這裡鄭重拜託，就像T3一樣，這個問題不亞於T3航廈的建築，我希望你不光是監督，我希望以你們的專業去幫忙他們解決這個複雜的問題。為什麼呢？服務建議書假設是它分包廠商的，在法院都有公證的，它不讓，然後下一家要來，你不要按照我的服務建議書，這是我的know-how，這後面的一些問題會變成一個尷尬的問題，第一個，T3硬體終於完工了，中間串接的運輸體系時間差很多，所以這個部分我要拜託你介入一下，好不好？幫忙一下。"],["陳主任委員金德：好。"],["魯委員明哲：第二個，因為時間的關係，我覺得很感慨，因為它這次換掉的這個系統廠商叫理立，正好是我上一屆擔任立委時跟很多委員都非常關心的一家廠商，它提了非常非常多的計畫，從地方政府、從臺灣頭到臺灣尾，再拿到我們中央政府一堆計畫，我個人可以接受啦！有些新的東西真的是實驗性質的，你不實驗怎麼去落實，我覺得有一些計畫實驗不成、沒辦法落實，就說抱歉，7,000萬裝在口袋走了，想一想，好吧！既然是實驗，國家總是要實驗。可是這幾年，2021年它已經進入臺鐵了，因為沒有人管，它研究不出來、不成功，又怎麼樣？不重要啊！政府的錢照領啊！之前一些委託或者試行的案件，我就算了，到2021年它開始介入臺鐵多元通訊的行控4.0，坦白講，很多外面交通專業的學者專家都嚇到，它當時說我們臺灣要創新，要做全世界第一、唯一自己的一個行控安全系統。發生兩次大車禍，有人這樣說，理論上聽起來是好事，可是你的廠商呢？它說，我在美國某一個城市做過了相關的自駕系統，結果我們透過運安會去查、我們透過外交部去查，甚至有委員直接聯絡那個城市，查無此事、查無此公司啊！在臺灣耀武揚威、東騙西騙，上了一大堆的節目。","本來2021年臺鐵行控4.0只是初步的計畫，也是找一段鐵路來跑跑看，花了五千六百多萬，事實上後面還有非常大的計畫，就被叫停了，今年的4月2號運安會說，這個根本不可行啊！這根本不能用啊！講得很難聽。所以我的問題點是，我們的政府就算是財力很好，也不能這樣玩。它弄完之後，沒事了，該領的錢拿了就走了。我們發覺扣掉成本，因為系統、software比較看不太到，所以它就賺了，那接下來賺哪一條呢？就賺機場三航廈PMS自駕系統，它再來賺一條。現在理立又是我們剛剛講機場三航廈自駕接駁系統的系統廠商，所以我剛剛講說你可以不可以換？其實我很兩難，我希望換得到，我是真的很怕這家廠商，所以我希望你去介入的原因是因為這攸關人民的安全，而且是我們國家的門面，如果再這樣搞下去的話，這是一個很大的問題。","第二個，針對於類似的廠商，好像又不符合101條款，它就一直做不出實績，能不能用101條款把它排除，我們用採購法為所有的工程單位在第一線去擋一下，結果好像也用不到。我覺得對於這種新的科技，它說什麼算什麼的，後面做的都沒有成果，我倒是覺得101條款要針對於這種類似software、系統的，它的KPI是什麼，什麼叫成、什麼叫不成，或者說連續兩個案子或者三個案子沒有做出實績的時候，我真的希望工程會對於這種困擾能夠介入，你看，它現在又進去桃機了，你我都有可能要去坐那個自駕系統，萬一電池發生火災怎麼辦？萬一系統門不開怎麼辦？坦白講，我會怕，我先講我會怕，很多人民也在怕，所以這個的部分是不是能夠想方設法，第一個，你們去幫忙它；第二個，針對採購法很多委員都問了，總質詢也有人問了，不合格的廠商我們把它叫做渣男廠商好了，可是渣男廠商也要有一個渣男吸鐵，為什麼這些採購的單位老是把它吸進來呢？又是你、又是你，到底是我們法令不足，還是採購人員出了問題，才讓這些真的不合格、過去沒有實績的廠商還在與我們的國家簽約，一直去弄這些東西？我的時間到了，希望主委您做個結論。"],["陳主任委員金德：針對這一類的廠商，我們希望能夠建置廠商履歷，優秀的廠商跟委員剛才所說的渣男廠商，我們都分別建立履歷供機關評選時做參考。"],["魯委員明哲：好，那請你去多幫忙桃機公司，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝魯明哲召委質詢，現在休息10分鐘。","休息（10時53分）","繼續開會（11時3分）"],["主席：繼續開會，接下來邀請邱若華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":350,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-3","speakers":["陳素月","林俊憲","許智傑","黃健豪","林沛祥","李昆澤","何欣純","廖先翔","魯明哲","邱若華","蔡其昌","林國成","游顥","徐富癸","黃國昌","洪孟楷","王美惠","廖偉翔","楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁","王鴻薇","陳俊宇","李柏毅","羅智強","鍾佳濱","陳冠廷"],"page_start":293,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137701_00013"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}