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時間很緊迫 我很簡短的問 最近大家很關心的就是Uber Eats跟Hupenda它的併購問題你覺得為了保持市場競爭 我們應該評估的交易關係者有哪些至少包括外送員 消費者 還有餐廳所以我這邊少了一個外送員 對不對所以你連外送員都考慮進去 我覺得很好好 那我們往下看"},{"start":56.109,"end":81.5,"text":"其實我這邊過去曾經舉過例子在美國對於AT&T在數十年前被強制拆分成七個公司你覺得這是根據什麼法你所了解的?因為AT&T是獨佔嘛它在美國它是一個算是有限電視有限通訊的部分那您覺得台灣有在公平會我們除了合併之外有可能像美國這樣要求一個獨佔事業強制拆分嗎?"},{"start":83.049,"end":101.062,"text":"我們會看案情那你認為過去我們在核准有線電視系統業者的時候我們把它規劃成51個區那除了少數區是附屬之外當年每個區都是一個業者你覺得這樣符不符合我們一個公平交易所要保持的市場秩序"},{"start":103.244,"end":103.504,"text":"有線電視系統業者"},{"start":125.103,"end":140.431,"text":"公共的網路這網路的基礎建設大部分是政府完成的加上使用的訊號頻寬是屬於政府可以來管制的所以政府當然可以予以限制那你覺得這個外送平台外送員是不是使用公家的道路公共道路"},{"start":142.335,"end":159.891,"text":"有,一定要在馬路上送嘛,他用的都是公共基礎建設嘛所以他的營業的範疇是建立在政府的基礎建設之上所以政府構不構成政府介入去過問這個外送平台使用公共建設所產生的市場秩序的一個依據"},{"start":163.199,"end":187.495,"text":"不管他有沒有用到公共建設,所有的事業都要符合市場基礎資訊。是,但是他如果用公共建設的時候,我們政府就更有介入去管制的空間。我舉例,Uber Eats或Pupenta,他有沒有用到資訊流?有嘛。他的付款要用金流,都是要網路基礎建設嘛。他的物流用公共道路嘛。他目前的大量使用公共基礎設施。哪一個類似的情況,我舉個例,往下看。"},{"start":188.339,"end":216.559,"text":"好 那有線電視呢 因為這樣的關係 它有自然獨佔的形成 所以要求政府介入再往下看那麼我們在關於我們的這個外送平台當中副院長主持的消保會當中呢 它規定了兩件事情第一個 它認為它在資訊流的部分還有第三方資物的部分 物流跟資訊流 它希望速發部來主管但是外送員他說叫做貨運業屬於交通部的特許事業你認同這樣的一個主管權責嗎"},{"start":218.131,"end":237.752,"text":"因為什麼是貨運業在交通部有他的主管法規對他們認為外送員就是在從事貨運那至於跟這個他的外送平台之間是一種承攬關係還是勞僱關係當然那是另外一件事情但是他們使用公共道路運交貨物就是一個特許行業好那我們來看"},{"start":238.328,"end":264.19,"text":"所以我們政府要討論到底要不要介入去訂定合理的運費運費包括兩種一種是消費者付的第一種是外送員拿到的那這兩種包括消費者利用資訊平台跟外送資訊公司跟外送平台下單然後下面有一個貨運公司將這個餐飲從餐廳由外送員送到顧客的手上這裡面包含了很多的部分我們往下看"},{"start":264.878,"end":266.259,"text":"經濟委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":280.664,"end":300.737,"text":"換言之,未來你們在審查WhoPanda跟UberEat,他不是只是審查一個資訊平台、兩個資訊平台合併與否,他事實上還包含了兩個金流支付公司要不要合併,還包含了全台灣那麼多使用地方政府管轄道路的貨運業務,要不要做一個整併的問題,您同意嗎?"},{"start":301.781,"end":322.697,"text":"我想就是說各個法規怎麼規範就由各個法規那回到不管有沒有結合都是從競爭秩序是競爭秩序你認為在一個縣市當中兩個客運公司的競爭你們要考慮它的市場秩序嗎?都要考慮好那你們認為一個高雄的外送員可能送餐到台北市嗎?"},{"start":325.031,"end":341.861,"text":"理論上是不太可能因為餐飲有它的實現性所以理論上如果是貨運平台外送的這個貨運物流的階段往下看它事實上它是一個各區域各自分開的所以未來如果這兩家外送平台他們在談合併的時候"},{"start":345.143,"end":368.41,"text":"你們不管最後做於同意或不同意都應該思考到未來你們所關心的剛剛你講的外送員的權益他是附著在一個貨運地區性的貨運的一個業務上那這樣的貨運業務必須合理的投射回來你們在審查這兩個表面上以資訊公司合併的案例來看待"},{"start":369.19,"end":378.038,"text":"金流的部分他們如果兩家合併超過20億就不是歸速發部第三方事務所主管會歸金管會主管這你們知道嗎"},{"start":379.824,"end":399.27,"text":"你們知道對不對 如果他們兩個合併的話 金流的部分 他們的業務主管機關就要轉移了 就要從哪裡 從速發部轉移到金管會了金管會是我同意 那就是另外一件事情 但是物流的部分 要不要拆分 金管會 公平會要不要做出一個明白的表示"},{"start":400.883,"end":418.568,"text":"在審結合的部分你們會不會同時規範它物流的部分可否結合我想這個到時候要再整個來看好那今天本席要提醒你既然一開始你就告訴我這一次的他們兩家的結合不是只有金流的部分不是設餐廳不是設消費者"},{"start":419.648,"end":420.349,"text":"我希望我們會綜合考量好 謝謝"}]},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:15:17 - 11:22:38","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請公平交易委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":712,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時15分）主席、在場委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請主委。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["李主任委員鎂：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主委好，時間很緊迫，我很簡短地問。最近大家很關心的就是Uber Eats跟foodpanda的併購問題，你覺得為了保持市場競爭，應該評估的交易關係者有哪些？"],["李主任委員鎂：至少包括外送員、消費者，還有餐廳。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我這邊少了一個外送員，對不對？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你連外送員都考慮進去，我覺得很好。","其實我過去曾經舉過一個例子，在美國，對於AT&T在數十年前被強制拆分成7個公司，以你所瞭解的，你覺得這是根據什麼法？因為AT&T是獨占，它在美國算是有線通訊，您覺得在臺灣，除了合併之外，公平會有可能像美國這樣要求一個獨占事業強制拆分嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們會看案情。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。過去在核准有線電視系統業者的時候，我們把它規劃成51個區，除了少數區是複數之外，當年每個區都是一個業者，你覺得這樣符不符合公平交易所要保持的市場秩序？有關有線電視系統業者。"],["李主任委員鎂：有線電視比較特別的就是它還有NCC主管的法規部分，所以是兩邊會處理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我瞭解，但是除了六都之外，大部分都是一區一家業者，你覺得一區一家業者有沒有妨礙到市場的公平性？"],["李主任委員鎂：應該是要看情形。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，看什麼情形，往下看，有線電視是使用公共的網路，這個網路的基礎建設大部分是政府完成的，加上它使用的訊號頻寬是屬於政府可以來管制的，所以政府當然可以予以限制，那你覺得外送平臺的外送員是不是使用公家的道路、公共道路？"],["李主任委員鎂：有，一定要在馬路上送。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，他在馬路上送，他用的都是公共基礎建設，他的營業範疇是建立在政府的基礎建設之上，所以是否構成政府介入去過問這個外送平臺使用公共建設所產生的市場秩序的依據？你再思考一下，我告訴你……"],["李主任委員鎂：不管他有沒有用到公共建設，所有的事業都要符合市場競爭秩序。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，但是他如果有用到公共建設，政府就更有介入去管制的空間。我舉例，Uber Eats或foodpanda有沒有用到資訊流，有嘛！它的付款、金流，都是用到網路基礎建設，它的物流是用公共道路，所以它目前大量使用到公共基礎設施，有什麼類似的情況，我舉個例，有線電視因為這樣的關係形成自然獨占，所以要求政府介入。關於外送平臺的部分，在副院長主持的消保會會議，他規定了兩件事情，第一個，他認為在資訊流還有第三方支付的部分，即物流跟資訊流，他希望數發部來主管，但是他說外送員叫做貨運業，屬於交通部的特許事業，你認同這樣的主管權責嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：有關貨運業的部分，在交通部有主管法規，就由交通部去……"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，他們認為外送員就是在從事貨運，至於跟外送平臺之間是一種承攬關係還是勞僱關係，當然那是另外一件事情，但是他們使用公共道路運交貨物就是一個特許行業。所以政府要討論到底要不要介入去訂定合理的運費，運費包括兩種，一種是消費者付的，另一種是外送員拿到的，這兩種包括消費者利用資訊平臺，透過資訊公司跟外送平臺下單，然後下面有一個貨運公司，由外送員將餐飲從餐廳送到顧客的手上，這裡面包含了很多部分。另外，既然已經規定金流跟資訊流的部分是由數發部來主管，那你認為在貨運的部分是不是應該依現在客運公司的情況，實際上它是分區來設立的；換言之，未來你們在審查foodpanda跟Uber Eats時，並不是只審一個資訊平臺、兩個資訊平臺合併與否，事實上還包含了兩個金流支付公司要不要合併，還包含全臺灣那麼多使用地方政府管轄道路的貨運業務要不要整併的問題，您同意嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：各法規怎麼規範就由各個法規處理，不管有沒有結合，都是從競爭秩序進步化的態度去看它……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你認為在一個縣市當中，對於兩家客運公司的競爭要考慮市場秩序嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：都要考慮。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。你們認為一個高雄的外送員可能送餐到臺北市嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：理論上不太可能。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不太可能？"],["李主任委員鎂：因為東西要新鮮。"],["鍾委員佳濱：餐飲有時效性、時限性。所以理論上，如果是從貨運平臺外送貨運物流的階段來看，事實上是各區域、各自分開的。未來如果這兩家外送平臺foodpanda跟Uber Eats談合併時，不管你們最後同意或不同意，都應該思考、關心到未來、你剛剛所講的，外送員的權益是附著在地區性的貨運業務上。而這樣的貨運業務必須合理投射回來，也就是你們在審查這兩個表面上以資訊公司合併的案例來看待，在金流部分，如果兩家合併後超過20億，就不歸數發部第三方支付所主管，而是歸金管會主管，這點你們知道嗎？知道，對不對？"],["李主任委員鎂：有一些分工。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果他們兩個合併的話，金流部分的業務主管機關就要轉移了，要從數發部轉移到金管會。至於金管會是否同意？那又是另外一件事。但物流的部分要不要拆分？公平會要不要做出明白的表示？"],["李主任委員鎂：在審結合的部分……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們會不會同時規範它物流的部分可否結合？"],["李主任委員鎂：這個到時候要再整個來看。"],["鍾委員佳濱：今天本席要提醒你，既然你一開始就告訴我，這次兩家的結合不是只有金流，也不只涉及餐廳、消費者，還包括當中物流配送的外送員。未來你們對這兩家公司的合併審核上，考慮到交易公平性時，也應該考量交易關係人，包括外送員是否應該有區域屬性的貨運公司，並與他們進行權益上的規範跟保障，同意嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：我想我們會綜合考量。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。"],["主席：請陳超明委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":54,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-2","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","邱志偉","鍾佳濱","陳超明","洪孟楷","蔡易餘","羅智強","李坤城","王鴻薇","謝衣鳯","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請公平交易委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137901_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}