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比方說因為少子化的關係你光學校"},{"start":187.856,"end":212.917,"text":"各國中小高中職啊數量非常龐大沒有錯所以我才會對列管有一點質疑就是為什麼列管只有九件這個列管可能是針對比方有人反應或者是特殊真的是完全是變成文資管的需要活化的這部分我們來改進啦真正的列管應該不只是對對對我的意思是我看到這個九件我嚇一跳欸閒置的一定是很多啦"},{"start":214.72,"end":231.541,"text":"副主委沒關係你可以講你可以直接補充沒問題我不一定要叫主委講沒問題好謝謝委員謝謝主席那主要是我們的清查大概是跟我們的品管公共工程品質品管一樣都是三級品管制的三級清查那第一個當然就是設施管理機關他自己要主動清查"},{"start":232.822,"end":256.51,"text":"那接下來就是那個主管機關要主動抽查那我們工程會這邊負責大概就是所謂的那個全國的本會的抽查那不過委員關心的這件案子我想這個我們本會會把它列入來去再進一步去了解這個案子目前的處理狀況因為台中這個花博還被監察院110年還是要檢查還是要審計處啦還要審計處糾正所以主委我同意你剛剛的講法"},{"start":257.35,"end":260.091,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":288.67,"end":300.143,"text":"這個公設室的主管機關或他上級主管機關稽查的請他們詳時再回報到工程委員這個我們中央一定要有列管為什麼因為這涉及到後面會有很多的問題第一個"},{"start":302.29,"end":303.391,"text":"蔡其昌"},{"start":318.323,"end":342.182,"text":"又跟中央不斷的要錢來蓋新的建築物那這個形成我們資源的浪費我們等一下我還要關注那個減碳的問題你看這個都是對減碳來講都是殺手也是對國家預算這個非常的浪費所以活化如果中央我們在補助跟他的活化績效兩者之間我們一定要取得一個勾肌"},{"start":343.343,"end":353.887,"text":"不然我們沒有人管我們列管這九項我要表示這地方政府幾乎都沒有蚊子管所以其實不是這樣主委剛剛你也補充了我也覺得嚇一跳我想你也嚇一跳所以我們應該對於列管"},{"start":356.957,"end":375.935,"text":"我督促你你現在還有多少是蚊子管你要趕快去做以後你要送上來你要申請其他的管轍我會告訴你說你先從你的列管的我列管然後你要去執行的這些蚊子管裡面哪一些是可以優先來使用"},{"start":376.215,"end":402.723,"text":"委員這個建議非常好應該這樣來做比較合理就該地方政府本身還有多少餘量可以使用我也跟主委報告我對這個老舊建築的改建或老舊建築的活化我很有興趣我只隨便因為時間有限你看那個日本這個都是廢棄學校改建的旅館你看到這個你會覺得這個可能不知道等級是五星級還是六星級這是學校這個都是學校改建的下一頁"},{"start":404.031,"end":430.632,"text":"這個都是學校去改建的旅館你不要去到很遠就隔壁的日本他就很多這種案例那我的意思就是說齁我長期在觀但我從來沒有我沒有特別印象說台灣哪一個活化很成功的案例然後讓台灣變成這個案例變成焦點或者變成典範可以讓其他縣市來觀摩考察學習"},{"start":432.343,"end":432.503,"text":"蔡其昌"},{"start":445.41,"end":461.48,"text":"行政院要求你們要列管這些嘛那到底我們的問題為什麼我們的活化上面都做的沒有比人家那麼好人家可以把它活化還賺錢對不對我們為什麼不行是涉及法規的問題還是地方政府怎麼樣所以我們棍棒蘿蔔"},{"start":463.101,"end":478.622,"text":"棍棒就是他做不好我就不給你我不應該再繼續放任你蚊子管一直蓋嘛那你做得好我應該想辦法來協助你補助你從經費到法規的這個鬆綁那到底哪一些法規讓我們的活化面臨到障礙"},{"start":479.841,"end":502.579,"text":"主委我覺得工程會都應該來盤點這些事情我們可以針對這些閒置設施的活化也單獨訂定相關的範本或指引好 這個我想我們在交通委員會還有很多時間這個是本席今天先起個頭希望未來我們還可以持續來追蹤所有的那特別像台中"},{"start":503.28,"end":519.675,"text":"像這個那麼大八十幾億的花博當時辦的時候林佳龍市長辦的時候是風風光光的大家也都很讚嘆可是事後這個市長換人了然後今天的花博的留下來長管變成什麼樣可怕的樣子"},{"start":520.416,"end":540.769,"text":"我覺得主委你除了到臺中看看這個捷運藍線之外,也應該去看看這個這個是指標性的,這個不是一個小小的學校廢校然後放在那裡,這不是,這個是曾經轟動一時的花博所以這個應該工程會要好好的去監督一下臺中市政府"},{"start":542.093,"end":570.043,"text":"好那接下來呢我那個還有一點點時間我想那個檢探的我看今天主委也特別在報告當中也去提出來就是那個淨零轉型落實公共建設的淨零轉型跟永續台灣那我看了一下大概我本來今天準備資料要來問但是時間的關係已經差不多了所以我留一點但是我有一個建議給主委你看你看這個報告裡面"},{"start":571.977,"end":600.944,"text":"我從我們的這個我們公共工程委員會永續發展目標志願檢視報告其實志願檢視報告我們要做哪一些項目目標在哪裡其實在你的簡報當中在你今天的簡報當中有出現可是這問題最大在哪裡主委問題最大在於幾乎每一個項目我們都沒有KPI啦就是說我們都說有我們現在正在做"},{"start":601.954,"end":629.071,"text":"他到底要做到哪裡叫做做2050淨零碳排是從蔡總統開始他就很明確壓了一個時間叫2050所以行政院下面開始把各個部會你們減碳的路徑然後2020要達到多什麼2030要達到什麼我們是有清楚的數據我隨便舉一個例子就好了你看你們的目標12"},{"start":631.101,"end":633.043,"text":"2020的目標政府機關綠色採購比率要達業務費預算之2.8到2030要達到3.5這個應該是你們自己列的那我檢視今天的標準裡面"},{"start":648.547,"end":673.397,"text":"我檢視今天的報告沒有一個沒有報告內容沒有清楚的去說明那2.8達到了沒今年已經2024了啊所以你目標是2020是要是要2.8那達到了沒那2030馬上就到了目標是3.5啊這個做到了沒所以我的意思是說寫這些我都沒有意見啊但是"},{"start":674.673,"end":679.959,"text":"你立法院要來監督公共工程委員會到底有沒有落實可能是參考環境部的"},{"start":681.547,"end":690.974,"text":"對,對,對,那沒關係,就是,雖然工程會,我們也自己做志願檢視報告嘛,志願檢視報告我們一定有列出目標啦,有目標我們就要有達成,要怎麼達成這個目標,我2025要到哪裡,2030要到哪裡,這樣我們才可以要求,主委你也可以要求我們工程會當年要怎麼去把這件事達成"},{"start":706.986,"end":731.763,"text":"所以對我們來說2050的金鈴碳牌那個不是早期我們道德訴求說我們要對地球比較好大家發揮良心發揮道德這不是這是人類的自救行動這也是民進黨執政底下我們的總統跟行政院定的目標所以應該變成一個迫切的危機它也是一個迫切有方向性有數字性的"},{"start":733.991,"end":734.271,"text":"蔡其昌委員質詢"}]},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:11:15 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11:23:52","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":488,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（11時11分）謝謝主席，請陳主委。"],["主席：請陳主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員早。"],["蔡委員其昌：主委早。主委，我看了一下工程會對於活化閒置公共設施的列管量，這幾年列管的數字，108年22件、109年17件，到最近好像都只有9件，列管只有9件，這個數字減少。你們把列管的件數減少，但現在活化狀況的好壞，不知道工程會有沒有去處理這個事情？我這樣舉例好了，以臺中市而言，花了八十幾億辦花博，花博所留下來的場館在不在現在列管的9件裡面？算嗎？你們的這個9件含不含臺中花博所留下來的場館？"],["黃處長順昌：報告委員，花博的部分沒有包括在這9件裡面。"],["蔡委員其昌：它已經不再列管了？"],["黃處長順昌：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，我舉一些媒體所報導的案例，來，你看，這個當然不是最近的新聞，這是4月份的新聞，花博所留下來的，以花舞館來講，到現在還是蚊子館，就是說花博花了八十幾億，可是除了部分列為公園，還是做公園使用，這個本席沒話說，但我們蓋的那些場館，放到今天，我就沒有看到一個案子是成功的，就是工程會你們沒有列管，那沒有列管，它還是蚊子館，或者甚至它現在已經委外，但是成效很差，但這個中央、工程會好像也沒有列入什麼樣的考核機制，主委是這樣嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：閒置空間的列管是工程會被指派的項目之一。"],["蔡委員其昌：對。"],["陳主任委員金德：因為全國閒置的公共設施的確是有很大的問題，數量非常龐大，比方說因為少子化的關係，光是學校，各國中小、高中職，數量非常龐大。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，沒有錯，所以我才會對列管有一點質疑，就是為什麼列管的只有9件？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們再來檢討，這個列管可能是針對比方說有人反映或者是特殊的，真的是完全變成蚊子館的、需要活化的，這部分我們來改進。"],["蔡委員其昌：OK。"],["陳主任委員金德：真正列管的應該不只是這樣。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，我的意思是我看到這個只有9件，我嚇一跳欸！"],["陳主任委員金德：閒置的一定是很多。"],["蔡委員其昌：副主委，沒關係，你可以直接補充沒問題，我不一定要叫主委講。"],["李副主任委員怡德：好，謝謝委員、謝謝主席。主要是我們的清查，大概是跟我們的品管、公共工程品質品管一樣，都是三級品管制，三級清查。第一個，當然就是設施管理機關自己要主動清查。"],["蔡委員其昌：沒錯。"],["李副主任委員怡德：接下來就是主管機關要主動抽查，我們工程會這邊負責的大概就是全國的抽查，不過委員關心的這件案子，本會會把它列入，再進一步去了解這個案子目前的處理狀況。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，因為臺中這個花博的展館110年還遭審計處糾正，主委，所以我同意你剛剛的講法，這個要怎麼做，我們沒辦法，因為它有的權力都在地方政府。"],["陳主任委員金德：比方說我們最近有請教育部統計，全國的中小學或高中職的閒置教室，每一間教室比方說1個禮拜只用5個小時以下的，請它去稽查，那個稽查的數量就很多，所以我們會主動要求這個公共設施的主管機關或它的上級主管機關，將稽查的結果再詳實回報工程會。"],["蔡委員其昌：這個我們中央一定要列管，為什麼？因為這涉及到後面很多的問題。第一個，活化，我知道你每一個地方政府有多少的空間是蚊子館，甚至是廢在那個地方，譬如學校廢掉之後，地方首長也不去認真思考，然後又跟中央不斷地要錢來蓋新的建築物，形成資源的浪費，等一下我還要關注減碳的問題，你看，這個對減碳來講都是殺手，對國家的預算也非常地浪費，所以中央在補助跟它的活化績效兩者之間，我們一定要取得勾稽，不然沒人管，我們列管的才9項，表示地方政府幾乎都沒有蚊子館，但其實不是這樣。主委，剛剛你也補充了，我嚇一跳，我想你也嚇一跳，所以對於列管的部分，你要去督促，現在還有多少是蚊子館，它要趕快去活化，以後如果有送上來申請其他館舍，你就要告訴它要先從列管的這些蚊子館裡面，去檢視哪一些是可以優先來使用的。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員這個建議非常好。"],["蔡委員其昌：應該這樣做才合理。"],["陳主任委員金德：就各該地方政府，它本身還有多少餘裕量可以使用。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，我也跟主委報告，我對老舊建築的改建或老舊建築的活化很有興趣，我隨便提一下啦，因為時間有限。你看日本，這些都是廢棄學校改建成的旅館，看到這個你會覺得它的等級可能是五星級還是六星級，但這些都是學校改建成的旅館，你不用去到很遠，隔壁的日本就有很多這種案例，我的意思是我長期在關注，但我從來沒有特別的印象，就是臺灣有哪一個活化很成功的案例，然後讓這個案例變成焦點或者變成典範，可以讓其他縣市來觀摩、考察、學習，或許有，但是它不夠強大。"],["陳主任委員金德：有的是涉及法規。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，所以這些我們應該怎麼來調整，就是工程會應該對於……行政院要求你們要列管這些嘛，到底我們的問題在哪？為什麼我們在活化上面都做得沒有人家那麼好？人家可以把它活化還賺錢，對不對？我們為什麼不行？是涉及法規的問題，還是地方政府的問題？所以我們棍棒、蘿蔔要齊下，棍棒就是它做不好，我就不應該再繼續放任它蚊子館一直蓋；你做得好，我應該想辦法來協助你、補助你，從經費到法規的鬆綁，到底哪一些法規讓我們的活化面臨障礙？主委，我覺得工程會都應該來盤點這些事情。"],["陳主任委員金德：我們可以針對這些閒置設施的活化也單獨訂定相關的範本或指引。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，我想我們在交通委員會還有很多時間，本席今天先起個頭，希望未來我們還可以持續來追蹤所有的個案，特別像臺中這個那麼大、八十幾億的花博，當時林佳龍市長辦的時候是風風光光的，大家也都很讚嘆，可是事後市長換人了，今天花博留下來的展館變成什麼可怕的樣子，我覺得主委除了到臺中看看捷運藍線之外，也應該去看看這個展館，這個是指標性的，這不是一個小小的展館，比如說學校廢校然後閒置在那裡，這不是，這個是曾經轟動一時的花博展館，所以這個工程會應該要好好地去監督一下臺中市政府。","接下來，還有一點點時間，我想減碳的部分，我看今天主委特別在報告當中也有提出，落實公共建設的淨零轉型跟永續臺灣。我看了一下大概，我本來今天有準備資料要問，但是時間已經差不多了，所以我留了一點時間，我有一個建議要給主委，你看這個報告，公共工程委員會永續發展目標自願檢視報告裡面，其實我們要做哪一些項目、目標在哪裡，在你今天的簡報當中有出現，可是這最大的問題在哪裡？主委，最大的問題在於幾乎每一個項目我們都沒有KPI，就是我們都說有、我們現在正在做，但到底要做到哪裡叫做有做？","2050淨零碳排是從蔡總統開始，他很明確地押了一個時間──2050，所以行政院下面開始把各部會減碳的路徑，2020要達到什麼、2030要達到什麼，有清楚的數據。我隨便舉一個例子就好，你看，你們的目標12，2020的目標是政府機關的綠色採購比率要達業務費預算之2.8%，到2030要達到3.5%，這個應該是你們自己列的嘛，我檢視了今天的報告內容，沒有清楚地說明2.8%達到了沒，今年已經2024了，你的目標是2020要到2.8%，那達到了沒？2030馬上就到了，目標是3.5%，這個做到了沒？我的意思是，寫這些我都沒有意見，但是立法院要來監督公共工程委員會到底有沒有落實……"],["陳主任委員金德：這個可能是參考環境部的目標。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，沒關係，就是屬於……"],["陳主任委員金德：因為淨零跟綠色採購……"],["蔡委員其昌：工程會也自己做了自願檢視報告，自願檢視報告一定有列出目標，有目標我們就要有要怎麼達成這個目標的KPI，就是2025要到哪裡、2030要到哪裡，這樣主委你也可以要求我們工程會的同仁要怎麼去把這件事情達成，對我們來說，2050的淨零碳排不是早期我們的道德訴求，說我們要對地球比較好，大家發揮良心、發揮道德，已經不是這樣，這是人類的自救行動，這也是在民進黨執政底下我們的總統跟行政院所訂的目標，所以它應該變成是一個迫切的危機，它也是有迫切性、有方向性、有數字性，是一個我們追求的方向啦！主委，我已經超過時間太久了，很不好意思，下一次我來質詢一定還是一樣問減碳的問題，我的意思是說，我們自我檢視到底裡面每一項我們今年的目標是什麼、明年的目標是什麼，我們要很清楚啦！這樣好不好？"],["陳主任委員金德：好。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝蔡其昌委員的質詢。","接下來邀請林國成委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":350,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-3","speakers":["陳素月","林俊憲","許智傑","黃健豪","林沛祥","李昆澤","何欣純","廖先翔","魯明哲","邱若華","蔡其昌","林國成","游顥","徐富癸","黃國昌","洪孟楷","王美惠","廖偉翔","楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁","王鴻薇","陳俊宇","李柏毅","羅智強","鍾佳濱","陳冠廷"],"page_start":293,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137701_00013"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}