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«都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T11:47:07.383000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T11:47:07.604000+08:00","text":"主席，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T11:47:07.604000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T11:47:08.165000+08:00","text":"麻煩先請劉世芳部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-09-30T11:47:08.165000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T11:47:08.185000+08:00","text":"請部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T11:47:08.185000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T11:47:18.527000+08:00","text":"部長好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-09-30T11:47:18.527000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T11:47:18.788000+08:00","text":"洪委員你好。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T11:47:19.188000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T11:47:27.356000+08:00","text":"部長，我想國人都很關心，我們也希望了解，讓全民能夠安心，賴總統說要全社會防務……","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-09-30T11:47:27.356000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T11:47:29.238000+08:00","text":"防衛韌性。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T11:47:29.238000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T11:47:30.219000+08:00","text":"韌性委員會。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T11:47:30.459000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T11:47:35.764000+08:00","text":"其中的目標是充實40萬名具有防衛能力的民力，是不是？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T11:47:36.505000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T11:47:42.051000+08:00","text":"那我想請教，剛剛也有委員詢問，民力跟民兵到底有什麼差別？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-09-30T11:47:42.769000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T11:47:56.617000+08:00","text":"第一個，我不了解民兵的定義，但是我了解民力的定義，跟委員報告一下，民力的部分，大概是目前我們依據民防法、消防法、災害防救法跟替代役管理條例裡面所折算出來的。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T11:47:58.458000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T11:48:02.840000+08:00","text":"所以民防法現在有我們所謂的民防相關人員嘛！是的。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T11:48:02.900000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T11:48:05.161000+08:00","text":"那現在全國的民防人員差不多有多少人？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-09-30T11:48:06.082000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T11:48:07.243000+08:00","text":"我先看一下……部長？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T11:48:07.243000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T11:48:08.291000+08:00","text":"部長突然……","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-09-30T11:48:08.291000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T11:48:09.339000+08:00","text":"我必須……對不起，因為我這邊的資訊比較比較多一點。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T11:48:09.339000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T11:48:10.387000+08:00","text":"我們現在沒有辦法了解我們的民防人數？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-09-30T11:48:10.387000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T11:48:11.435000+08:00","text":"民防的部分，我必須要再……不好意思，我這邊並沒有，可恃民力的部分，大概還沒有看到，不好意思、不好意思、不好意思。","quality":0.022},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T11:48:11.435000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T11:48:12.483000+08:00","text":"部長不用不好意思，放在心上。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T11:48:12.483000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T11:48:13.531000+08:00","text":"本席的了解，是不是民防法規定相關的，不管你有分幾個隊，包括……","quality":0.038},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-09-30T11:48:13.531000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T11:48:14.579000+08:00","text":"對，就是因為隊分得太詳細了，所以我現在統籌不出來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T11:48:14.579000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T11:48:38.494000+08:00","text":"不是，本席沒有要問那麼詳細，但是包括民防總隊差不多9.7萬人，民防團4.7人，防護團23.4萬人等等，所以民防的人數，以民防人力動員計畫來統計，差不多就是40萬人上下，是不是？","quality":0.686},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-09-30T11:48:38.494000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T11:48:51.795600+08:00","text":"是，差不多，但是你的算法跟我的算法不太一樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T11:48:51.795600+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T11:49:05.097200+08:00","text":"所以這樣子的一個民防人力動員計畫，在2022年其實就已經有統計了，差不多40萬人次，那跟現在充實40萬名具有防衛能力的民力是不是一樣？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-09-30T11:49:05.097200+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T11:49:18.398800+08:00","text":"大致上一樣，但是有一點不一樣的地方，第一個是我們希望能夠增加所謂企業或社區，或是NGO的志願者，譬如我們在做防災士的訓練……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T11:49:18.398800+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T11:49:31.700400+08:00","text":"OK，所以……","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-09-30T11:49:31.700400+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T11:49:45.002000+08:00","text":"這個部分的目標是以明年達到5萬為主，現在已經有三萬多人拿到防災士的資格。","quality":0.061},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T11:49:45.002000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T11:49:49.407000+08:00","text":"是，所以其實部長，外界大家在好奇的就是，過去其實我們就有民防法了，民防也……","quality":0.719},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-09-30T11:49:49.627000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T11:49:50.728000+08:00","text":"也在做民防訓練。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T11:49:50.728000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T11:49:54.312000+08:00","text":"也有相關的民防分隊、中隊的訓練嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-09-30T11:49:54.312000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T11:49:55.312000+08:00","text":"對，是的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T11:49:54.893000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T11:49:58.657000+08:00","text":"我們以前擔任過民意代表，也都會參與民防的相關工作。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-09-30T11:49:58.657000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T11:49:59.657000+08:00","text":"對，沒錯。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T11:49:58.978000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T11:50:02.421000+08:00","text":"那麼其實現在提出來的最主要是要多增加5萬名的所謂……","quality":0.609},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-09-30T11:50:02.421000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T11:50:10.343333+08:00","text":"不是，它也不算民防法，就是防災士的訓練基本上是基於災害防救法跟消防法。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T11:50:10.343333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T11:50:18.265667+08:00","text":"如果不算民防法……","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-09-30T11:50:18.265667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T11:50:26.188000+08:00","text":"沒有，我剛剛有跟委員報告，我們這次所謂「可恃民力」的部分大概就是包含民防法、消防法、災害防救法，還有替代役管理條例下面所要召訓或是所要訓練的對象。","quality":0.062},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T11:50:26.188000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T11:50:28.690000+08:00","text":"所以未來我們會有統稱嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T11:50:28.690000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T11:50:30.372000+08:00","text":"還是說它就像現在一樣？","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T11:50:30.532000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T11:50:36.137000+08:00","text":"因為民防法下面就是民防人員，你說用消防法的話，下面可能就是義警、義消，對不對？","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-09-30T11:50:36.137000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T11:50:37.137000+08:00","text":"義消，對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T11:50:36.137000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T11:50:38.899000+08:00","text":"所以他還是各自原本就有的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T11:50:39.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T11:50:50.309000+08:00","text":"本席好奇的地方其實有兩個部分，一個是說到底賴總統提出來的這個部分會不會跟我們已經有法源依據的義消也好，或是民防人員也好，會有疊床架屋的問題？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T11:50:50.309000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T11:50:57.175182+08:00","text":"二方面是，如果說要新增一個人力的話，那麼法源依據在哪裡？","quality":0.08},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T11:50:57.175182+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T11:51:04.041364+08:00","text":"這個部分其實到目前為止，還是沒有辦法對外界說明清楚啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-09-30T11:51:04.041364+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T11:51:10.907545+08:00","text":"報告委員，我想您非常瞭解法律上面的授權，在民防法裡面的授權，第一個，我們要按照功能來分組，它這個功能就是要維持我們的社會穩定，譬如說我們有治安，那未來我們要再做訓練，包括替代役男，就會有治安維護組的部分，譬如說我們會有救災防護組，我們就希望未來在大規模震災的時候，替代役的役男也可以加入救災防護組，可是要做治安維護或是做救災防護的時候，他必須要有專業的技巧，不能像以前一樣，大家都沒有任何個裝就往災區裡面衝，或是往消防應該注意的部分……好……","quality":0.02},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-09-30T11:51:10.907545+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T11:51:17.773727+08:00","text":"所以我們現在特別強調的……","quality":0.182},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T11:51:17.773727+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T11:51:24.639909+08:00","text":"所以你現在講到……","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-09-30T11:51:24.639909+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T11:51:31.506091+08:00","text":"這個可恃民力的部分是訓練，是訓練！","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T11:51:31.506091+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T11:51:38.372273+08:00","text":"是，部長……","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-09-30T11:51:38.372273+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T11:51:45.238455+08:00","text":"包括民防也是一樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T11:51:45.238455+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T11:51:52.104636+08:00","text":"部長，我剛剛這樣子給你完整的論述，一個就是訓練，一個就是裝備，對不對？是的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T11:51:52.104636+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T11:51:58.970818+08:00","text":"因為你剛剛講不能沒有個裝就往前衝嘛！對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T11:51:58.970818+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T11:52:05.837000+08:00","text":"那一樣，訓練跟裝備的部分我們預計還要再投入多少經費來做這一塊？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-09-30T11:52:05.837000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T11:52:17.380000+08:00","text":"報告委員，因為還沒有進入114年度，現在我們在做替代役男的訓練上面是申請行政院的二備金來幫忙，行政院願意來協助我們。","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-09-30T11:52:17.380000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T11:52:51.544000+08:00","text":"因為我們目前進行役男或替代役男的基礎訓練包括急救訓練、自衛防護，還有專業訓練，包括避難設施或者是在職訓練等等這些，它的量能不夠，所以剛剛有委員也提到，第一個，我們現在使用的地方大概就是已經退場的中州技術學院願意提供這樣子的場地給我們做替代役男的訓練，或者是其他比較加強的防衛訓練的部分，所以現在大部分都是用在訓練的量能上面。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T11:52:52.415000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T11:53:04.267000+08:00","text":"其實你剛剛還是沒有回答本席的問題，不過沒關係，未來替代役的部分就您的安排或是規劃，您認為是他們要在役滿、退役之前拿到相關的證照？","quality":0.627},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-09-30T11:53:04.547000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T11:53:05.868000+08:00","text":"是的，尤其是EMT-1。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T11:53:06.549000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T11:53:08.811000+08:00","text":"所以幾個證照會變成是他退役的標準嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-09-30T11:53:08.811000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T11:53:10.372000+08:00","text":"不一定。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T11:53:10.372000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T11:53:16.075000+08:00","text":"如果他在服役期間沒有辦法拿到，不管是他的本職學能等等……","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-09-30T11:53:16.995000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T11:53:20.657000+08:00","text":"那可能給他的工作量就沒有辦法那麼專業；應該是這樣子的。","quality":0.72},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T11:53:20.657000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T11:53:26.799000+08:00","text":"是，本席提出來就是未來可能很多人會面臨的問題，以及想要瞭解政府的態度。","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T11:53:27.339000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T11:53:33.262000+08:00","text":"所以您剛剛有提到，替代役你要延長，並且你要提出相關的訓練，也到中州，那裡有相關的訓練設備，這樣會不會變成是一個標準？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T11:53:33.762000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T11:53:42.904857+08:00","text":"還有，如果它沒有標準的話，就役男學習上來講，他的動力會不會沒有那麼足夠？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-09-30T11:53:43.204857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T11:53:48.919143+08:00","text":"我想，替代役分成很多功能，所以要看他的功能上……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T11:53:49.219143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T11:53:52.076286+08:00","text":"所以本席現在只是提醒……","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-09-30T11:53:52.376286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T11:53:53.519143+08:00","text":"對，他如果……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T11:53:53.819143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T11:53:54.819143+08:00","text":"我知道……","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-09-30T11:53:55.119143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T11:54:01.976286+08:00","text":"他如果沒有達標的話，他只能回復到原來就是服兵役而已。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T11:54:02.276286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T11:54:13.419143+08:00","text":"部長，本席現在提醒，一個政策出來之後，牽一髮而動全身，要去做比較全面的思考和配套的部分。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-09-30T11:54:13.719143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T11:54:20.576286+08:00","text":"是，謝謝委員的指教，我們一定會朝著這方面來好好地努力。","quality":0.083},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-09-30T11:54:20.876286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T11:54:21.876286+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（王委員美惠代）","start":"2024-09-30T11:54:22.176286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T11:54:24.747714+08:00","text":"謝謝，感謝洪孟楷委員。","quality":0.222},{"speaker":"主席（王委員美惠代）","start":"2024-09-30T11:54:25.047714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T11:54:28.476286+08:00","text":"請蘇清泉，蘇清泉，蘇清泉不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（王委員美惠代）","start":"2024-09-30T11:54:28.776286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T11:54:30.490571+08:00","text":"請張召委質詢。","quality":0}]},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:47:06 - 11:54:05","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。【第一案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】\n\n【9月30日、10月2日及3日三天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":931,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（11時47分）主席，謝謝。麻煩先請劉世芳部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長好。"],["劉部長世芳：洪委員你好。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我想國人都很關心，我們也希望了解，讓全民能夠安心，賴總統說要全社會防務……"],["劉部長世芳：防衛韌性。"],["洪委員孟楷：韌性委員會。其中的目標是充實40萬名具有防衛能力的民力，是不是？那我想請教，剛剛也有委員詢問，民力跟民兵到底有什麼差別？"],["劉部長世芳：第一個，我不了解民兵的定義，但是我了解民力的定義，跟委員報告一下，民力的部分，大概是目前我們依據民防法、消防法、災害防救法跟替代役管理條例裡面所折算出來的。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以民防法現在有我們所謂的民防相關人員嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：是的。"],["洪委員孟楷：那現在全國的民防人員差不多有多少人？"],["劉部長世芳：我先看一下……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長？部長突然……"],["劉部長世芳：我必須……對不起，因為我這邊的資訊比較比較多一點。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們現在沒有辦法了解我們的民防人數？"],["劉部長世芳：民防的部分，我必須要再……不好意思，我這邊並沒有，可恃民力的部分，大概還沒有看到，不好意思、不好意思、不好意思。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長不用不好意思，放在心上。本席的了解，是不是民防法規定相關的，不管你有分幾個隊，包括……"],["劉部長世芳：對，就是因為隊分得太詳細了，所以我現在統籌不出來。"],["洪委員孟楷：不是，本席沒有要問那麼詳細，但是包括民防總隊差不多9.7萬人，民防團4.7人，防護團23.4萬人等等，所以民防的人數，以民防人力動員計畫來統計，差不多就是40萬人上下，是不是？"],["劉部長世芳：是，差不多，但是你的算法跟我的算法不太一樣。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以這樣子的一個民防人力動員計畫，在2022年其實就已經有統計了，差不多40萬人次，那跟現在充實40萬名具有防衛能力的民力是不是一樣？"],["劉部長世芳：大致上一樣，但是有一點不一樣的地方，第一個是我們希望能夠增加所謂企業或社區，或是NGO的志願者，譬如我們在做防災士的訓練……"],["洪委員孟楷：OK，所以……"],["劉部長世芳：這個部分的目標是以明年達到5萬為主，現在已經有三萬多人拿到防災士的資格。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，所以其實部長，外界大家在好奇的就是，過去其實我們就有民防法了，民防也……"],["劉部長世芳：也在做民防訓練。"],["洪委員孟楷：也有相關的民防分隊、中隊的訓練嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：對，是的。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們以前擔任過民意代表，也都會參與民防的相關工作。"],["劉部長世芳：對，沒錯。"],["洪委員孟楷：那麼其實現在提出來的最主要是要多增加5萬名的所謂……"],["劉部長世芳：不是，它也不算民防法，就是防災士的訓練基本上是基於災害防救法跟消防法。"],["洪委員孟楷：如果不算民防法……"],["劉部長世芳：沒有，我剛剛有跟委員報告，我們這次所謂「可恃民力」的部分大概就是包含民防法、消防法、災害防救法，還有替代役管理條例下面所要召訓或是所要訓練的對象。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以未來我們會有統稱嗎？還是說它就像現在一樣？因為民防法下面就是民防人員，你說用消防法的話，下面可能就是義警、義消，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：義消，對。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以他還是各自原本就有的。本席好奇的地方其實有兩個部分，一個是說到底賴總統提出來的這個部分會不會跟我們已經有法源依據的義消也好，或是民防人員也好，會有疊床架屋的問題？二方面是，如果說要新增一個人力的話，那麼法源依據在哪裡？這個部分其實到目前為止，還是沒有辦法對外界說明清楚啊！"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我想您非常瞭解法律上面的授權，在民防法裡面的授權，第一個，我們要按照功能來分組，它這個功能就是要維持我們的社會穩定，譬如說我們有治安，那未來我們要再做訓練，包括替代役男，就會有治安維護組的部分，譬如說我們會有救災防護組，我們就希望未來在大規模震災的時候，替代役的役男也可以加入救災防護組，可是要做治安維護或是做救災防護的時候，他必須要有專業的技巧，不能像以前一樣，大家都沒有任何個裝就往災區裡面衝，或是往消防應該注意的部分……"],["洪委員孟楷：好……"],["劉部長世芳：所以我們現在特別強調的……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以你現在講到……"],["劉部長世芳：這個可恃民力的部分是訓練，是訓練！"],["洪委員孟楷：是，部長……"],["劉部長世芳：包括民防也是一樣。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我剛剛這樣子給你完整的論述，一個就是訓練，一個就是裝備，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：是的。"],["洪委員孟楷：因為你剛剛講不能沒有個裝就往前衝嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：那一樣，訓練跟裝備的部分我們預計還要再投入多少經費來做這一塊？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，因為還沒有進入114年度，現在我們在做替代役男的訓練上面是申請行政院的二備金來幫忙，行政院願意來協助我們。因為我們目前進行役男或替代役男的基礎訓練包括急救訓練、自衛防護，還有專業訓練，包括避難設施或者是在職訓練等等這些，它的量能不夠，所以剛剛有委員也提到，第一個，我們現在使用的地方大概就是已經退場的中州技術學院願意提供這樣子的場地給我們做替代役男的訓練，或者是其他比較加強的防衛訓練的部分，所以現在大部分都是用在訓練的量能上面。"],["洪委員孟楷：其實你剛剛還是沒有回答本席的問題，不過沒關係，未來替代役的部分就您的安排或是規劃，您認為是他們要在役滿、退役之前拿到相關的證照？"],["劉部長世芳：是的，尤其是EMT-1。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以幾個證照會變成是他退役的標準嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：不一定。"],["洪委員孟楷：如果他在服役期間沒有辦法拿到，不管是他的本職學能等等……"],["劉部長世芳：那可能給他的工作量就沒有辦法那麼專業；應該是這樣子的。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，本席提出來就是未來可能很多人會面臨的問題，以及想要瞭解政府的態度。所以您剛剛有提到，替代役你要延長，並且你要提出相關的訓練，也到中州，那裡有相關的訓練設備，這樣會不會變成是一個標準？還有，如果它沒有標準的話，就役男學習上來講，他的動力會不會沒有那麼足夠？"],["劉部長世芳：我想，替代役分成很多功能，所以要看他的功能上……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以本席現在只是提醒……"],["劉部長世芳：對，他如果……"],["洪委員孟楷：我知道……"],["劉部長世芳：他如果沒有達標的話，他只能回復到原來就是服兵役而已。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，本席現在提醒，一個政策出來之後，牽一髮而動全身，要去做比較全面的思考和配套的部分。"],["劉部長世芳：是，謝謝委員的指教，我們一定會朝著這方面來好好地努力。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，謝謝。"],["主席（王委員美惠代）：謝謝，感謝洪孟楷委員。","請蘇清泉，蘇清泉，蘇清泉不在。","請張召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-2","speakers":["張宏陸","李彥秀","王鴻薇","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","許宇甄","黃建賓","丁學忠","王美惠","黃捷","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","張智倫","李坤城","黃健豪","徐巧芯","羅智強","張啓楷","邱志偉","洪孟楷","張嘉郡"],"page_start":213,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查行政院函請審議「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員王鴻薇等\n20人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「都市\n更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1137801_00010"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}