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如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團簽署第三案如未經各黨團"},{"start":309.443,"end":319.478,"text":"但有的人的生存權跟居住權我認為也必須要受到保障所以你們在思考這個問題我覺得這個部分你也不能把它拿掉"},{"start":320.427,"end":343.526,"text":"你覺得呢?這個就是我們後面的一個法規檢討因為大家期待違老條例要能繼續執行嘛那所以我們未來再要繼續修法要往前走的時候我想剛剛委員所提到的這一些對於小基地的一個照顧這個我們還是會來重新再來檢討一下現行的這個規定裡面能不能做一些再做一些彈性的修正這我們會來檢討好部長我為什麼請你上來站著這樣"},{"start":348.61,"end":375.561,"text":"我覺得啦像圍牢這種小基地的我覺得很多人他不是不願意有大基地他現況就沒有辦法了啊那他現況沒有辦法的情況之下我們不能讓他不去蓋新房子啊你一天到晚講地震來怎麼辦那些人怎麼辦他的生存權跟居住權我認為必須也要收到保障啦這一點部長能不能也麻煩啊你要支持一下"},{"start":377.25,"end":377.75,"text":"二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具"}]},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:54:15 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12:00:44","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案。【第一案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】\n\n【9月30日、10月2日及3日三天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":998,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（11時54分）我先請部長跟署長。"],["主席：請部長跟署長。"],["劉部長世芳：召委，你好。"],["張委員宏陸：署長，我們今天要修都更條例第六十五條，其實我想請問一下署長，這個修了之後直接受益的是什麼人？"],["吳署長欣修：直接受益的就是在這個容積訂定之前已經核發執照，但是還沒有完成使照的部分，這些大樓可以受惠，以後可以用原容的方式來申請獎勵。"],["張委員宏陸：不、不、不，署長，直接受益的應該是現在擁有房子的房屋所有權人嘛！"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["張委員宏陸：對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：沒有錯。"],["張委員宏陸：就是現在有房子的人可以適用舊的容積，要去改建或什麼的，可以得到比較好的容積，這樣才能改建嘛！對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["張委員宏陸：這個要講清楚啊！"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["張委員宏陸：不然你到底是給建商還是給誰誘因？我覺得你再說一次，把它……"],["吳署長欣修：原有的住戶……"],["張委員宏陸：我覺得你要把它說清楚。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["張委員宏陸：是什麼？"],["吳署長欣修：就是現有的、住在這些大樓裡面的住戶，其實他們是最直接的受益者。"],["張委員宏陸：所以是直接給人民優惠吧！"],["吳署長欣修：沒有錯。"],["張委員宏陸：不是給任何人，是直接給現在有房子的所有權人優惠，對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：對！"],["張委員宏陸：是不是？"],["吳署長欣修：是！"],["張委員宏陸：是嘛！這個是不是就像我們以前、現在在很多農村裡面看到的農建地？是不是這樣？"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["張委員宏陸：對不對？可能有的人會覺得在農村裡面怎麼會有建地，那就是都市計畫發布前，他們本來就住在那邊的房子，幾十年了……"],["吳署長欣修：就是既有的房屋。"],["張委員宏陸：對啊，既有的房屋。他們住在那邊幾十年了，現在說要實施都市計畫，他們在農村就不能有住的權利。這是不對的嘛！所以我們今天要修的這個是不是類似都市計畫還沒有發布前的農建地的概念？請你說一下。"],["吳署長欣修：有點類似。因為最主要是當時容積率的訂定比較晚，所以它在之前已經興建完成而且在使用了，這些住戶本來就應該要有比照既有房屋的一些合理的容積獎勵，應該這麼說，他們會更有意願參與執行都更，因為他才能比較有機會分到自己原有應該分回的坪數。"],["張委員宏陸：對嘛！第一個是所有權人、是人民直接的，不是給任何人，這是一個。另外，違建不算吧？"],["吳署長欣修：對，違建不算。"],["張委員宏陸：違建不算，這個要說清楚啊！"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["張委員宏陸：這個都要說清楚。","另外，今天有很多委員在講危老的事情，當然，要不要延長、要不要什麼的，我覺得應該都是你們本於自己的職權和專業去處理，不過署長，剛剛也有很多委員說，到時候房子太小間或什麼的，可是有關居住權跟生存權，我相信我也跟您說過很多次了，如果以現在的規定，未來拿到獎勵要1,600平方公尺以上耶！是不是？"],["吳署長欣修：不是，那是……"],["張委員宏陸：如果要拿到滿，要拿到滿！"],["吳署長欣修：如果要10%拿到足……"],["張委員宏陸：對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["張委員宏陸：1,600平方公尺……"],["吳署長欣修：就是規模獎勵那一塊。"],["張委員宏陸：那是幾坪？1,600平方公尺是幾坪？"],["吳署長欣修：將近500坪。"],["張委員宏陸：對嘛！500坪嘛！"],["吳署長欣修：那是要10%拿到足。"],["張委員宏陸：對啦！我有一個概念，尤其像我們新北市，我們不要舉太多，說我們板橋就好了，有很多基地面積不大，他也沒辦法都更，旁邊人家又是新的房子，如果不自己去「危老」，他能怎麼辦？他要永遠住在那間房子嗎？對不對？我覺得這一點可能我們也要思考一下，他的居住權怎麼辦？他的生存權怎麼辦？你去看國外！雖然有的房子是小小的，但是有的蓋得非常有特色啊！不一定這樣就不行啊！"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["張委員宏陸：我覺得都市的發展並不是只有一整棟，當然是整棟大樓這樣非常漂亮，但是我認為有的人的生存權和居住權也必須受到保障，所以當你們在思考這個問題的時候，我覺得這個部分也不能把它拿掉。您覺得呢？"],["吳署長欣修：沒錯，這就是我們後面的一個法規檢討，因為大家期待危老條例能繼續執行，所以我們未來要繼續修法、要往前走的時候，剛剛委員所提到的這些對於小基地的照顧，我們還是會重新再來檢討一下，看看在現行的規定裡面能不能再做一些彈性的修正，這個我們會來檢討。"],["張委員宏陸：部長，我為什麼請你上來站著講？像危老這種小基地的，我覺得很多人他不是不願意有大基地，而是他現況就沒有辦法了啊！在他現況沒有辦法的情況之下，我們不能讓他不去蓋新房子啊！你一天到晚講地震來怎麼辦，請問那些人怎麼辦？他的生存權跟居住權，我認為也必須受到保障啦！這一點能不能也麻煩部長支持一下？"],["劉部長世芳：我們再來好好的規劃，尤其是都會地區裡面的危老太多了。"],["張委員宏陸：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝張召委的質詢。"],["主席（張委員宏陸）：登記發言委員除不在場外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。書面質詢及未答復部分，請相關單位於一週內以書面答復，並副本通知本會。","現在休息5分鐘，休息後繼續處理法案。","休息（12時1分）","繼續開會（12時8分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-2","speakers":["張宏陸","李彥秀","王鴻薇","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","許宇甄","黃建賓","丁學忠","王美惠","黃捷","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","張智倫","李坤城","黃健豪","徐巧芯","羅智強","張啓楷","邱志偉","洪孟楷","張嘉郡"],"page_start":213,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137801_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查行政院函請審議「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員王鴻薇等\n20人擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員李彥秀等17人擬具「都市\n更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1137801_00010"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}