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這個是最內行的 這個工程流標那大概五千萬以上我們做了你的統計五千萬以上的工程採購流標率是七成左右那這個為什麼會如此那大家都只有說我缺人工我覺得這個不是一個理由不是一個非常主要的一個理由所以我們看到因為"},{"start":301.957,"end":329.251,"text":"大家都希望趕快完成但是你光光五千萬以上你就有七成的流標到底他的問題出在哪裡包括了你的廢標這些的情況本行認為工程會必須要做一個整體性方案的一個檢討你光光流標一次我們要浪費多少時間浪費多少人力那為什麼不從頭源頭把它做好請說明"},{"start":331.074,"end":333.366,"text":"這個的確是因為物價一直在上漲"},{"start":334.69,"end":352.883,"text":"那而且這個整個人力也都相對不足所以這個我們會跟流標的機關來跟他們討論是否需要修改相關的招標條件不是是否是務必需要因為您看到我們從這個109年到111年從68.85一直上升到78.07所以你明明白白你的占比一直在增加"},{"start":364.531,"end":386.427,"text":"你光光上半年112年去年上半年你查核的流票的金額案件就491件你的占比也是71點多所以我記得我們有一次在教育部的部分因為他重新做一個整體性的規劃他就降低那個流票率"},{"start":387.512,"end":415.8,"text":"所以你是不是應該要跟各部會去統籌我們會跟這個主辦機關那麼來你協助好不好這是你的專業你各部會你應該跟他們討論你為什麼會流標到七成你要浪費多少人力浪費多少的這個時間那你們應該要站在專業的領域跟他們去溝通要怎麼樣可以去修改"},{"start":416.88,"end":424.065,"text":"讓這個事件不要再流標七成五千萬以上就要流標七成你看我們浪費多少人力浪費多少時間"},{"start":426.118,"end":431.082,"text":"你如果都不去改變你也明明知道目前的困境是什麼你又不去改變那當然不只七成還會越來越高嗎"},{"start":450.99,"end":480.063,"text":"是不是主委本席具體建議你是不是主一個專案主一個專案依照目前的樣態我們在整個過程當中可以怎麼樣去協調一個能夠精進的方法我們針對個案都有持續在進行中就是針對個案流標多次的都會主動介入那當然你的成果還是一樣還是我告訴你的是七成以上"},{"start":481.209,"end":495.468,"text":"主委另外一個思維好不好另外一個思維目前的面向困境是什麼你以你的專業組一個專案去協助所有的各部會我們到底要怎麼樣去調整好嗎好"},{"start":498.513,"end":511.008,"text":"你多久時間可以告訴本市我們會針對這個問題有一個專案的討論做出建議啦做出建議對對對這個建議當然可以給這些留學的對去參考嘛那你大概多久時間可以告訴我們"},{"start":512.538,"end":512.558,"text":"楊瓊瓔委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-09-30T12:20:23.351000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T12:20:23.511000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-09-30T12:20:23.731000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T12:20:24.532000+08:00","text":"本席想邀請主委。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-09-30T12:20:24.612000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T12:20:24.692000+08:00","text":"請陳主委。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2024-09-30T12:20:24.692000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T12:20:25.692000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-09-30T12:20:24.712000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T12:20:25.192000+08:00","text":"主委，我們首先來討論碳排的問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-09-30T12:20:25.192000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T12:20:26.353000+08:00","text":"公共工程委員會的公共工程所占的是全國一成的碳排，那你們碳排的KPI是什麼？請教。","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2024-09-30T12:20:49.656000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T12:21:34.409000+08:00","text":"這個碳排應該是來自於所用的原物料，這些原物料本身在生產過程當中都有計算碳排，所以我們工程會做的就是希望把這些原物料的單位碳排放係數做一個資料庫，這些資料庫就讓採購的機關在設計的時候，能夠針對工程項目去計算總碳排放量，或者是選擇什麼樣的方式，比方說用一些再生粒料，或者用一些碳排比較少的原物料，來降低這個工程施作的碳排。","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-09-30T12:21:34.409000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T12:21:58.175000+08:00","text":"主委你說的這個內容大家都很清楚，因為它的原料，不管是混凝土還是鋼筋，你們也計算了，大約是一成左右，但是我們聽到的就是工程會經常會回答一句話，就是：遵循環境部2050年淨零碳排的目標。","quality":0.291},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-09-30T12:21:58.175000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T12:22:10.062000+08:00","text":"就這麼說，所以民眾會質疑，本席認為如果真的只是這樣的回答，是表示「太消極」，這三個字送你，所以本席要你一個資料，你有沒有具體的KPI跟指引？","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-09-30T12:22:11.903000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T12:22:15.806000+08:00","text":"你覺得工程的碳排會下降嗎？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-09-30T12:22:15.806000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T12:22:16.086000+08:00","text":"會下降嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2024-09-30T12:22:16.086000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T12:22:19.325000+08:00","text":"因為每年都在變動，工程有時候會增加，有時候會減少，所以我們是希望每個公共工程在施作的時候，儘可能……","quality":0},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-09-30T12:22:19.325000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T12:22:21.186000+08:00","text":"你是希望如此，但是你必須要設置相關的措施。對。","quality":0.55},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-09-30T12:22:21.186000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T12:22:26.761000+08:00","text":"有相關的措施，你才能夠去掌控。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2024-09-30T12:22:26.761000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T12:22:32.336000+08:00","text":"我們有採取幾個措施。","quality":0},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-09-30T12:22:32.336000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T12:22:37.911000+08:00","text":"所以本席也希望你的具體KPI、指引及相關措施，可以詳實書面資料給本席，因為這是全球都關注的議題，好嗎？好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-09-30T12:22:37.911000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T12:23:16.084000+08:00","text":"接下來本席要請教有關臺中捷運藍線的問題，我也謝謝你們上個禮拜有再帶隊去現場場勘，藍色捷運對我們臺中非常重要，而且期待十多年了、好久了，我們大家全力以赴，臺中市政府團隊更是全力以赴。","quality":0.795},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-09-30T12:23:16.084000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T12:23:19.412000+08:00","text":"本席要在這邊請教，既然你去現勘了，中捷藍線的總經費大概是1,615億元，其中由工程會去審查的就有1,441億元，現在已經9月底了，我們非常希望能夠儘速地審查通過，如期在2034年完工通車。","quality":0.284},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-09-30T12:23:19.412000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T12:23:22.740000+08:00","text":"主委，審查的進度呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-09-30T12:23:22.740000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T12:23:26.068000+08:00","text":"請教主委。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2024-09-30T12:23:26.068000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T12:23:27.589000+08:00","text":"我們就遵照委員的交代啦！","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2024-09-30T12:23:50.987000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T12:23:53.749000+08:00","text":"針對基本設計的核定，希望10月底以前核定。","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-09-30T12:23:54.569000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T12:23:56.270000+08:00","text":"10月底以前務必要核定，好不好？好的。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-09-30T12:23:56.870000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T12:23:57.470000+08:00","text":"所以剩下30天的時間，拜託、拜託、再拜託！好。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-09-30T12:23:57.470000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T12:23:59.451000+08:00","text":"因為我們的市民已經等了十幾年，非常、非常地期待，我想臺中市政府的團隊是全力以赴，所以我要拜託這個時程請掌控，好不好？","quality":0.904},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-09-30T12:24:13.158000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T12:24:13.899000+08:00","text":"我們做一個結論，就是10月底以前針對藍色捷運的審查能夠通過，好嗎？","quality":0.464},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2024-09-30T12:24:13.899000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T12:24:17.766000+08:00","text":"好，針對基本設計，工程會審查的1,441億元，我們再……","quality":0},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-09-30T12:24:17.766000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T12:24:21.633000+08:00","text":"針對1,441億元這個部分，我們預估、確認，並希望、努力在10月底以前完成審查通過，好不好？好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-09-30T12:24:21.633000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T12:24:25.500000+08:00","text":"那要拜託你掌控進度，謝謝你喔！","quality":0},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-09-30T12:24:25.500000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T12:24:29.367000+08:00","text":"我們也會全力，務必依照規劃，如期如質地在2034年完工通車，我們大家一起加油。","quality":0},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-09-30T12:24:29.367000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T12:24:57.273000+08:00","text":"最後一個議題，本席要請教工程的流標問題，主委，這是你最內行的。","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-09-30T12:24:58.134000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T12:25:09.556000+08:00","text":"針對5,000萬元以上工程流標，我們做了統計，5,000萬元以上的工程採購流標率是七成左右，為什麼會如此？","quality":0.78},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-09-30T12:25:11.017000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T12:25:17.558000+08:00","text":"大家都只會說缺人工，但我覺得這不是理由、不是一個非常主要的理由。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-09-30T12:25:20.957000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T12:25:29.761000+08:00","text":"大家都希望趕快完成，但是光是5,000萬以上工程就有七成流標，到底它的問題出在哪裡？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-09-30T12:25:29.761000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T12:25:33.083000+08:00","text":"包括廢標。","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-09-30T12:25:33.083000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T12:25:44.689000+08:00","text":"對於這些情況，本席認為工程會必須做整體性方案的檢討，光流標一次，就要浪費多少時間、浪費多少人力？","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-09-30T12:25:45.489000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T12:25:47.610000+08:00","text":"為什麼不從源頭做好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-09-30T12:25:48.231000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T12:25:48.231000+08:00","text":"請說明。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2024-09-30T12:25:50.074000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T12:25:57.933000+08:00","text":"這個的確是因為物價一直在上漲，而且整個人力也都相對不足。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2024-09-30T12:25:58.814000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T12:26:06.139000+08:00","text":"我們會找流標機關來討論，是否需要修改相關招標條件，然後……","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-09-30T12:26:06.599000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T12:26:33.979000+08:00","text":"不是「是否」，而是務必需要，因為您可以看到，109年到111年，從68.85%一直上升到78.07%，明明白白占比一直在增加，光是上半年─112年、去年上半年，你們所查核的流標案件就有491件，占比也是百分之七十一點多。","quality":0.782},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-09-30T12:26:35.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T12:26:53.114000+08:00","text":"我記得有次是教育部，因為重新做了一個整體性的規劃，就降低了流標率，所以主委是不是應該跟各部會統籌……","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2024-09-30T12:26:53.114000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T12:26:57.095000+08:00","text":"針對流標多次的案，我們會跟主辦機關來……","quality":0.529},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-09-30T12:26:57.095000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T12:26:57.695000+08:00","text":"你們去協助好不好？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-09-30T12:26:58.095000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T12:26:59.876000+08:00","text":"這是你的專業欸！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-09-30T12:27:00.076000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T12:27:04.037000+08:00","text":"對於各部會，你都應該跟他們討論，為什麼會流標到七成？","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-09-30T12:27:04.577000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T12:27:08.058000+08:00","text":"要浪費多少人力、浪費多少時間？","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-09-30T12:27:08.258000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T12:27:16.741000+08:00","text":"你們應該站在專業的領域跟他們溝通可以怎樣修改，讓這種事件不要再發生。","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-09-30T12:27:17.321000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T12:27:23.065000+08:00","text":"流標七成、5,000萬以上就要流標七成，你看我們浪費多少人力、浪費多少時間！是嗎？","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2024-09-30T12:27:23.065000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T12:27:24.101500+08:00","text":"這裡面包括第一次未足三家的，不過的確是因為相對條件都在改變，所以我們會跟這些採購5,000萬以上的各機關再作討論啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-09-30T12:27:24.101500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T12:27:25.138000+08:00","text":"「有法有破」嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-09-30T12:27:25.138000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T12:27:29.222000+08:00","text":"如果都不改變─你也明知道現在的困境是什麼，卻又不去改變，那當然不只七成啊！","quality":0.853},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-09-30T12:27:29.342000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T12:27:30.062000+08:00","text":"還會愈來愈高嘛！","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-09-30T12:27:49.990000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T12:27:50.230000+08:00","text":"是不是？","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-09-30T12:27:51.050000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T12:27:53.492000+08:00","text":"主委，本席具體建議，你是不是能組一個專案？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-09-30T12:27:54.652000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T12:28:06.497000+08:00","text":"組一個專案，依照目前的樣態，研究在整個過程當中可以怎麼樣協調一個能夠精進的方案。","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2024-09-30T12:28:07.098000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T12:28:08.678000+08:00","text":"我們針對個案都持續在進行中啦！","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2024-09-30T12:28:09.359000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T12:28:13.160000+08:00","text":"就是針對個案─流標多次的，都會主動介入。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-09-30T12:28:14.921000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T12:28:17.382000+08:00","text":"那當然成果還是一樣啊！","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-09-30T12:28:17.382000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T12:28:19.043000+08:00","text":"還是如我告訴你的七成以上啊！","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-09-30T12:28:20.209000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T12:28:21.891000+08:00","text":"主委，用另外一個思維好不好？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-09-30T12:28:22.772000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T12:28:24.154000+08:00","text":"用另外一個思維。好。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-09-30T12:28:24.154000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T12:28:26.677000+08:00","text":"目前的面向困境是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-09-30T12:28:26.677000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T12:28:34.448000+08:00","text":"請你以你的專業組一個專案，去協助所有各部會，研究到底要怎麼樣調整，好嗎？好。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-09-30T12:28:37.673000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T12:28:38.775000+08:00","text":"多久時間可以告訴本席？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2024-09-30T12:28:40.236000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T12:28:42.279000+08:00","text":"我們針對這個問題會有專案討論……好。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2024-09-30T12:28:42.439000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T12:28:42.859000+08:00","text":"作出建議啦！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-09-30T12:28:43.580000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T12:28:44.561000+08:00","text":"作出建議？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-09-30T12:28:44.561000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T12:28:44.561000+08:00","text":"對、對、對。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2024-09-30T12:28:44.561000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T12:28:46.283000+08:00","text":"這些建議當然可以給這些流標機關……","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-09-30T12:28:47.144000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T12:28:47.985000+08:00","text":"對，去參考嘛！對。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-09-30T12:28:48.486000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T12:28:50.008000+08:00","text":"那你大概多久時間可以告訴我們？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2024-09-30T12:28:50.008000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T12:28:51.008000+08:00","text":"給我們一個月，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2024-09-30T12:28:51.008000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T12:28:52.008000+08:00","text":"一個月。","quality":0},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-09-30T12:28:52.008000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T12:28:53.008000+08:00","text":"好，一個月告訴我們，好嗎？好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-09-30T12:28:53.008000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T12:28:54.008000+08:00","text":"我們希望嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-09-30T12:28:54.008000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T12:28:55.008000+08:00","text":"好不容易爭取到預算，不要一直流標，至於方案要怎麼做，你們去協助他們嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-09-30T12:28:55.008000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T12:28:56.008000+08:00","text":"好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-09-30T12:28:56.008000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T12:28:57.008000+08:00","text":"給他們參考。好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-09-30T12:28:57.008000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T12:28:58.008000+08:00","text":"一個月內告訴我們方案，好嗎？謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-09-30T12:28:51.538000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-09-30T12:28:51.558000+08:00","text":"謝謝楊瓊瓔委員。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-09-30T12:28:52.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-09-30T12:28:55.486571+08:00","text":"接下來邀請傅崐萁委員質詢。","quality":0}]},"會議時間":"2024-09-30T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:20:19 - 12:29:10","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":766,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（12時20分）謝謝主席。本席想邀請主委。"],["主席：請陳主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：主委，我們首先來討論碳排的問題。公共工程委員會的公共工程所占的是全國一成的碳排，那你們碳排的KPI是什麼？請教。"],["陳主任委員金德：這個碳排應該是來自於所用的原物料，這些原物料本身在生產過程當中都有計算碳排，所以我們工程會做的就是希望把這些原物料的單位碳排放係數做一個資料庫，這些資料庫就讓採購的機關在設計的時候，能夠針對工程項目去計算總碳排放量，或者是選擇什麼樣的方式，比方說用一些再生粒料，或者用一些碳排比較少的原物料，來降低這個工程施作的碳排。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：主委你說的這個內容大家都很清楚，因為它的原料，不管是混凝土還是鋼筋，你們也計算了，大約是一成左右，但是我們聽到的就是工程會經常會回答一句話，就是：遵循環境部2050年淨零碳排的目標。就這麼說，所以民眾會質疑，本席認為如果真的只是這樣的回答，是表示「太消極」，這三個字送你，所以本席要你一個資料，你有沒有具體的KPI跟指引？你覺得工程的碳排會下降嗎？會下降嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：因為每年都在變動，工程有時候會增加，有時候會減少，所以我們是希望每個公共工程在施作的時候，儘可能……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你是希望如此，但是你必須要設置相關的措施。"],["陳主任委員金德：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有相關的措施，你才能夠去掌控。"],["陳主任委員金德：我們有採取幾個措施。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以本席也希望你的具體KPI、指引及相關措施，可以詳實書面資料給本席，因為這是全球都關注的議題，好嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：接下來本席要請教有關臺中捷運藍線的問題，我也謝謝你們上個禮拜有再帶隊去現場場勘，藍色捷運對我們臺中非常重要，而且期待十多年了、好久了，我們大家全力以赴，臺中市政府團隊更是全力以赴。本席要在這邊請教，既然你去現勘了，中捷藍線的總經費大概是1,615億元，其中由工程會去審查的就有1,441億元，現在已經9月底了，我們非常希望能夠儘速地審查通過，如期在2034年完工通車。主委，審查的進度呢？請教主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：我們就遵照委員的交代啦！針對基本設計的核定，希望10月底以前核定。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：10月底以前務必要核定，好不好？"],["陳主任委員金德：好的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以剩下30天的時間，拜託、拜託、再拜託！"],["陳主任委員金德：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為我們的市民已經等了十幾年，非常、非常地期待，我想臺中市政府的團隊是全力以赴，所以我要拜託這個時程請掌控，好不好？我們做一個結論，就是10月底以前針對藍色捷運的審查能夠通過，好嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：好，針對基本設計，工程會審查的1,441億元，我們再……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：針對1,441億元這個部分，我們預估、確認，並希望、努力在10月底以前完成審查通過，好不好？"],["陳主任委員金德：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那要拜託你掌控進度，謝謝你喔！我們也會全力，務必依照規劃，如期如質地在2034年完工通車，我們大家一起加油。","最後一個議題，本席要請教工程的流標問題，主委，這是你最內行的。針對5,000萬元以上工程流標，我們做了統計，5,000萬元以上的工程採購流標率是七成左右，為什麼會如此？大家都只會說缺人工，但我覺得這不是理由、不是一個非常主要的理由。大家都希望趕快完成，但是光是5,000萬以上工程就有七成流標，到底它的問題出在哪裡？包括廢標。對於這些情況，本席認為工程會必須做整體性方案的檢討，光流標一次，就要浪費多少時間、浪費多少人力？為什麼不從源頭做好？請說明。"],["陳主任委員金德：這個的確是因為物價一直在上漲，而且整個人力也都相對不足。我們會找流標機關來討論，是否需要修改相關招標條件，然後……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不是「是否」，而是務必需要，因為您可以看到，109年到111年，從68.85%一直上升到78.07%，明明白白占比一直在增加，光是上半年─112年、去年上半年，你們所查核的流標案件就有491件，占比也是百分之七十一點多。我記得有次是教育部，因為重新做了一個整體性的規劃，就降低了流標率，所以主委是不是應該跟各部會統籌……"],["陳主任委員金德：針對流標多次的案，我們會跟主辦機關來……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你們去協助好不好？這是你的專業欸！對於各部會，你都應該跟他們討論，為什麼會流標到七成？要浪費多少人力、浪費多少時間？你們應該站在專業的領域跟他們溝通可以怎樣修改，讓這種事件不要再發生。流標七成、5,000萬以上就要流標七成，你看我們浪費多少人力、浪費多少時間！是嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：這裡面包括第一次未足三家的，不過的確是因為相對條件都在改變，所以我們會跟這些採購5,000萬以上的各機關再作討論啦！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：「有法有破」嘛！如果都不改變─你也明知道現在的困境是什麼，卻又不去改變，那當然不只七成啊！還會愈來愈高嘛！是不是？主委，本席具體建議，你是不是能組一個專案？組一個專案，依照目前的樣態，研究在整個過程當中可以怎麼樣協調一個能夠精進的方案。"],["陳主任委員金德：我們針對個案都持續在進行中啦！就是針對個案─流標多次的，都會主動介入。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那當然成果還是一樣啊！還是如我告訴你的七成以上啊！主委，用另外一個思維好不好？用另外一個思維。"],["陳主任委員金德：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：目前的面向困境是什麼？請你以你的專業組一個專案，去協助所有各部會，研究到底要怎麼樣調整，好嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：多久時間可以告訴本席？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們針對這個問題會有專案討論……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好。"],["陳主任委員金德：作出建議啦！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：作出建議？對、對、對。"],["陳主任委員金德：這些建議當然可以給這些流標機關……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，去參考嘛！"],["陳主任委員金德：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那你大概多久時間可以告訴我們？"],["陳主任委員金德：給我們一個月，好不好？一個月。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，一個月告訴我們，好嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們希望嘛！好不容易爭取到預算，不要一直流標，至於方案要怎麼做，你們去協助他們嘛！好不好？給他們參考。"],["陳主任委員金德：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：一個月內告訴我們方案，好嗎？謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝楊瓊瓔委員。","接下來邀請傅崐萁委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":350,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-3","speakers":["陳素月","林俊憲","許智傑","黃健豪","林沛祥","李昆澤","何欣純","廖先翔","魯明哲","邱若華","蔡其昌","林國成","游顥","徐富癸","黃國昌","洪孟楷","王美惠","廖偉翔","楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁","王鴻薇","陳俊宇","李柏毅","羅智強","鍾佳濱","陳冠廷"],"page_start":293,"meetingDate":["2024-09-30"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137701_00013"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}