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第二個就是他的國家 無論中央或地方的債務都暴增今年的失業率高漲 有一陣子還蓋牌還不講 不讓人家知道當然他現在的數據提出來都是美化"},{"start":72.418,"end":98.42,"text":"那之前一年多還有通貨緊縮的這樣的狀況然後再加上他又弄了一大堆的國安法案比如說亂抓台灣人然後他發生了這個深圳還有這個中國發生好幾件殺害外國人的這些事件那使得很多的外資包括台資也都一直在撤離"},{"start":99.561,"end":113.601,"text":"這是他之前的經濟狀況狀況很嚴重但是他上個禮拜他現在弄了一個非常猛的藥這個猛的藥猛到什麼地步呢猛到"},{"start":114.636,"end":141.989,"text":"我舉其中我覺得蠻離譜的就是他的央行可以循環借貸讓人去買進股票增持自己的股票為了要讓他的股市上漲不要跌居然讓央行直接間接的進入股市那這個當然短期內會很有效果但是其實這就是所謂的無毛印鈔了他的貨幣供給量"},{"start":143.663,"end":167.845,"text":"沒有一個根據不停的在增加所以大水漫灌短期可能會有一些效果果然這幾天看到上海的重症跟這個香港的股市的確都有大幅反彈的這樣的跡象但是這個是短期跡象如果你沒有實質內容支撐撐不下去的"},{"start":170.383,"end":172.684,"text":"所以我現在就是要請教那到底面對中國這樣的經濟情勢"},{"start":197.657,"end":225.325,"text":"我覺得他這一次的這個大水漫灌之後的這個將來的通膨更可以預期了將來資產能不能撐得住不知道但是通膨是絕對可以看得到的後果我想了解的是台灣到底在中國有多少的投資跟多少的這個產業上面現在的狀況是如何能夠幫助他們能夠離開這一個不合理的這個經營環境"},{"start":231.742,"end":236.091,"text":"委員一直很關心 不只是臺灣 包括兩岸的經濟狀況"},{"start":238.325,"end":257.962,"text":"冰凍三尺非一日之寒如果一個人質色彩這麼重又用軍國主義對外在擴張那本身又是黨國控制雖然它經過經濟的崛起數十年來有一定的程度但是這幾個因素一直存在的話它必定面臨很嚴重的社會衝擊那現在已經來臨了"},{"start":259.343,"end":284.565,"text":"吳秉叡"},{"start":284.565,"end":310.111,"text":"吳秉叡"},{"start":310.953,"end":326.543,"text":"像9月25號臺灣的34項農產品他又給你停止零關稅他老是拿他的這些經貿上面的這些惡劣的手段來當他政治上面他的攻防做政治上面的目的操作這一點"},{"start":327.765,"end":352.836,"text":"除了這三四項之後﹖後面可能還會繼續再來﹖我們政府有準備要怎麼樣子的﹖我們清楚說這個除了用經濟的壓迫之外﹖它還有政治的選擇﹖比如開放某一個地方指定哪一個地方可以﹖或是要求哪一個地方不可以﹖這個是政治上的選擇﹖這個是你我都了解的﹖我現在是要問說政府準備要怎麼樣子面對跟因應﹖"},{"start":354.709,"end":373.725,"text":"報告經濟部我們都每次他有這個動作之前之後我們都掌握後來也有一些作為甚至我們有預留了一些該有的做法但是不一定每次都會拿出來用請經濟部來談一下報告委員我想我們在經濟部裡面已經在之前就已經有成立這個投資台灣事務所"},{"start":374.825,"end":397.538,"text":"執行歡迎臺商回臺投資方案基於這個方案我像剛才這個委員所講的這個農業的這個問題我們面對這個問題幫助臺灣的這些產業希望他能夠在加值的這個活動轉向其他的這個市場不要只是看這個中國的市場這一點我們有積極在做"},{"start":398.536,"end":423.445,"text":"是 那剛剛問的這個農產品事項 我知道你的那個標準大概應該就是移轉市場嘛吼 那我們就是 如果中國這個是不是一個好的市場 我們也可以轉到別的市場去 但是那個是比較長期的短期之間馬上就受害 因為他常常不跟你磋商 就突然之間提出一個這樣作為這個攻擊的武器啊 那不知道陸委會跟農業部這邊有什麼樣的看法"},{"start":424.358,"end":441.486,"text":"我跟委員報告就是其實中國的市場是一個高風險的市場從100年開始他除了用不符合國際貿易的暫停我們的輸出還用所謂的那個輸送食品的註冊所以這三四年來其實我們已經積極的開拓中國以外的高端市場"},{"start":441.966,"end":467.411,"text":"我舉個實際的數字就是在109年的時候我們中國以外的市場的產值是38.6億到了去年的話是43.6億大概整整的多了5億那同一個時間我們對中國的輸出的部分已經降到了5億左右所以相對的就是說我們對中國市場的依賴程度也越來越少"},{"start":468.164,"end":487.521,"text":"當然我剛剛講的長期是你一定是要分散風險然後要到比較高端那當然我們自己的產品比如說冷鏈的建構使我們的產品能夠更優質也才有辦法賣到更高端的市場這長期是對的但是對於短期的因應阿對於這些馬上受損的這些人有什麼樣子的做法"},{"start":489.323,"end":503.692,"text":"跟委員報告剛剛講臺商面臨到空前的中國大陸的這個整個系統性的危機我們有三個做法那第一個部分當然就是讓他來回臺投資轉型升級"},{"start":504.172,"end":524.582,"text":"吳秉叡"},{"start":524.582,"end":554.172,"text":"吳秉叡"},{"start":554.252,"end":572.444,"text":"你的製造業呢你這個無限制的專注在哪個領域全用國家的力量去投資然後傾銷全世界全世界都在跟他呼籲這個國家是滿不講理的國家這個政府是沒有不合理的政府對中國不要抱這樣的期望必須要在知道說他是會做最壞的選擇之下我們要怎麼做"},{"start":572.944,"end":601.237,"text":"吳秉叡"},{"start":602.159,"end":606.209,"text":"委員長不好意思請幾個部長先回座我請今晚會主委來回答一下"},{"start":609.355,"end":632.17,"text":"金管會請你要說明最近金融機構在中國的監理政策之前他曾經講到我們這邊要增資或是在他那邊這個營業額超過50%以上的都只要他在別的市場要幹嘛都要經過他的同意這個聽說雷聲大雨點響但是到現在他也沒有核准過一家那台灣這些所謂的KY這些公司怎麼辦"},{"start":634.064,"end":635.286,"text":"這個問題現在有解決方案嗎?"},{"start":648.042,"end":668.079,"text":"現在我們對這個在大陸的這些的曝險特別我先跟委員報告一下就先從金融機構來講的話我們現在是希望他能夠持續的關注風險然後下降這個比率我想過去幾年來這個都非常的這個顯著我想從很多數據都看得出來"},{"start":668.88,"end":671.501,"text":"負險的比例 譬如說國有銀行負險的比例是在下降但是他的總體金額還是很高"},{"start":698.537,"end":700.144,"text":"因為我們大家的這幾年我們經濟發達資本"},{"start":702.625,"end":730.144,"text":"弄得很高的時候所以那個比例下降很大的因素是因為我們的BASE大的那但是他原來的他的那個額度還是蠻高的對最高的時候到一兆八千多億現在是大概九千六百億左右九千六百億也是一個很大的錢對但是就是相對的我們整個承受力因為當年大概是比如說最高曾經來到淨值的70%那時候我們的那個淨值才2.2兆現在到了4.6兆我們所以BASE等於擴大了一倍啊"},{"start":730.644,"end":749.636,"text":"對我們還是持續的在下降這個其實我覺得這是一個風險還有就是我們整個產業隨著政策往其他國家我現在不是只有要提醒中國現在香港被美國參眾兩院在去年12月通過國防授權法把它列為海外敵對勢力然後9月10號美國的眾議院又通過了香港經貿辦經濟貿易辦公室的認證法這個認證法是很厲害喔"},{"start":760.506,"end":789.02,"text":"他等於要取消香港在美國三個考慮要取消那個住在那邊的辦公單位那再來就是參議院如果通過現在眾議院已經通過了參議院如果通過再來就是美國總統要不要批准在這樣的狀況下這是很有可能通過的我們或許對中國的這個曝險是一件事台灣有多少銀行"},{"start":792.436,"end":801.768,"text":"在香港有這麼多辦事機構在香港逐漸變成中國的內地城市的演變過程中我們的因應方式"},{"start":802.83,"end":830.354,"text":"以及我們所要面臨的風險這個有沒有考慮在內在上個會期的時候委員在委員會上也有指證這件事情我們回去就把那個把中國跟香港一併考慮上是有本來是分開來處理像我們對香港的部分我們也開始有做一些比較嚴密的這些的考慮像剛剛那個委員提到我們現在在香港國營的部分大概有19家大概設有19家這個分行一家子行"},{"start":831.87,"end":844.818,"text":"保險只有兩個據點相對的這部分確實是比較多我們的證券相關行業的加速就更多那是過去有一些金融市場歷史的因素我想這部分我們也持續透過很多方式提醒他們風險的改變這我們會持續來做"},{"start":848.9,"end":861.32,"text":"那你有掌握我們台灣在香港掛牌的上市公司有多少嗎?我們現在台資在香港掛牌大概有61家那其中有12家是上市櫃公司同時在那邊做有11家是上櫃公司"},{"start":864.264,"end":892.81,"text":"其實這部分的話我們在過去假設你是上市櫃公司由金管會來主管的話他們如果要去香港去掛牌的話我們這邊會有一個審核機制也希望他們必須要通過他們股東大會的決議才可以做這件事情我們有在做這樣的監控機制我是說嚴密的跟他們溝通要了解他們的狀況因為他們有可能會遇到很艱難的狀況是 這我們在有透過交易所跟他們在做這樣的聯繫謝謝 報告委員我們會很關心台灣金融市場的體質跟健全"},{"start":893.65,"end":914.618,"text":"還有臺灣的臺商也非常的敏感像我們歡迎臺商回臺投資的行動方案就已經有超過300家臺商帶1.3兆的資金回臺中國跟香港都是有非常大的隱性風險的存在那個是政治力的風險不是一般的經營上面的風險那是額外的要注意最後我剩下幾秒鐘跟一個建議第7波的這個信用緊縮這個政策關於那個"},{"start":940.609,"end":945.446,"text":"好,謝謝國務委員還有卓院長下一位請陳鈺貞委員質詢"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2024-10-01T09:32:59.629000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T09:33:02.372000+08:00","text":"主席，麻煩請行政院卓院長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-01T09:33:02.372000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T09:33:02.612000+08:00","text":"請卓院長備詢。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T09:33:02.612000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T09:33:02.632000+08:00","text":"吳委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2024-10-01T09:33:02.652000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T09:33:02.692000+08:00","text":"院長早。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2024-10-01T09:33:02.872000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T09:33:40.399000+08:00","text":"跟你請教，中國的經濟狀況前一陣子惡化的很嚴重，包括大家都知道他的幾個大的房地產公司都出問題嘛，有的甚至已經被清算、要倒閉，所以房地產有暴跌的情況。","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2024-10-01T09:33:40.399000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T09:33:50.584000+08:00","text":"我以前常開玩笑說全世界打房最成功的國家就是中國，他把房價打到腰斬，甚至還沒有人要，當然這是一個笑話啦。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2024-10-01T09:33:51.950000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T09:34:35.304000+08:00","text":"再來，第二個是這個國家無論中央或地方的債務都暴增，青年失業率高漲，有一陣子還蓋牌不講，不讓人家知道，當然他現在提出來的數據都是美化過的，之前一年多還有通貨緊縮的狀況，然後加上他又弄了一堆國安法案，譬如說亂抓臺灣人啊，然後發生了深圳，還有中國發生好幾件殺害外國人的這些事件，使得很多外資，包括臺資也都一直在撤離，這是他之前的經濟狀況，狀況很嚴重。","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2024-10-01T09:34:37.667000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T09:34:46.800000+08:00","text":"但是他上個禮拜弄了一個非常猛的藥，這個猛藥猛到什麼地步？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2024-10-01T09:34:48.636000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T09:35:06.284000+08:00","text":"我舉其中我覺得滿離譜的，就是他的央行可以循環借貸，讓人去買進股票、增值自己股票，為了要讓他的股市上漲不要跌，居然讓央行直接、間接的進入股市。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2024-10-01T09:35:08.705000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T09:35:34.959000+08:00","text":"這帖藥當然短期內會很有效果，但是其實這就是所謂的「無錨印鈔」，他的貨幣供給量沒有一個根據不停的在增加，所以大水漫灌，短期可能會有一些效果，果然，這幾天看到上海的綜證跟香港的股市的確都有大幅反彈的跡象。","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2024-10-01T09:35:34.959000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T09:35:44.383000+08:00","text":"但是這是短期跡象，如果沒有實質內容去支撐是撐不下去的，因為如果所有的外資都在撤離，然後你的國家不能夠提供給大家穩定的信用，讓大家能夠相信在你那邊經營是有成果的，是可以享受成果的，那我看這個短期的現象並沒有辦法解決問題。","quality":0.225},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2024-10-01T09:35:44.383000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T09:36:39.305000+08:00","text":"所以我現在就要請教，到底面對中國這樣的經濟情勢，我覺得他這一次的大水漫灌之後，將來的通膨更可以預期，將來資產價格能不能撐得住不知道，但是通膨是絕對可以看得到的後果，我想了解的是，臺灣到底在中國有多少的投資跟多少的產業，就現在的狀況要如何幫助他們能夠離開這一個不合理的經營環境？","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T09:36:45.742000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T09:36:50.091000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝，委員一直很關心，不只是臺灣，也包括兩岸的經濟狀況。","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T09:36:52.325000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T09:37:11.081000+08:00","text":"冰凍三尺非一日之寒，如果一個人治色彩這麼重，又用軍國主義對外在擴張，本身又是黨國控制，雖然他經過經濟的崛起，數十年來有一定的程度，但是這幾個因素一直存在的話，它必定面臨很嚴重的社會衝擊。","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T09:37:11.081000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T09:37:21.855400+08:00","text":"現在衝擊已經來臨了，無論下任何的猛藥，到後來都可能是一個沒有辦法回頭的畸形發展。","quality":0.189},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T09:37:21.855400+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T09:37:32.629800+08:00","text":"臺灣在很多的產業上面，因為過去跟中國有非常密切的連結跟關係，我們也無法一時間把他斷絕，但是我們也知道，有很多產業，包括金融體系，都有很多在中國的投資，甚至有很多的暴險。","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T09:37:32.629800+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T09:37:43.404200+08:00","text":"不過這個部分，基於營業上、產業上的考量，我們也不宜在這邊多說，但是我認為我們的經濟部、金管會都有相當的掌握。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2024-10-01T09:37:43.404200+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T09:37:54.178600+08:00","text":"我只是要問說，我要了解說你知道這樣的危機有沒有在做準備、做因應？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T09:37:54.178600+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T09:38:04.953000+08:00","text":"經濟部跟金管會都有這些投資的對象，本國的產業……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2024-10-01T09:38:04.953000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T09:38:27.608000+08:00","text":"我舉一個例子，當然有的不是跟在場的兩位部長直接相關，像9月25號臺灣的34項農產品，他又給你停止零關稅，他老是拿這些經貿上面的惡劣手段來當作他政治上面的攻防，做政治上面的目的操作，這一點，除了這34項之外，後面可能還會繼續再來，我們的政府有準備要怎麼樣應對？","quality":0.741},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T09:38:27.848000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T09:38:41.694000+08:00","text":"我們清楚他現在除了用經濟的壓迫之外，他還有政治的選擇，比方說他開放某一個地方或指定哪一個地方可以，或是要求哪個地方不可以，這個就是政治上的選擇，這個當然對我們都是傷害，我們……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2024-10-01T09:38:41.694000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T09:38:46.836000+08:00","text":"這是你我都了解的，我現在是要問，政府準備要怎麼樣面對跟因應？","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2024-10-01T09:38:46.836000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T09:38:48.909000+08:00","text":"這一點能夠……","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T09:38:48.909000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T09:39:00.599000+08:00","text":"其實包括經濟部，每次他有這個動作之前、之後，我們都掌握，後來也有一些作為，甚至我們有預留了一些該有的作法，但是不一定每次都會拿出來用，請經濟部來談一下。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2024-10-01T09:39:01.399000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T09:39:32.536000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我們經濟部裡面在之前就已經有成立「投資臺灣事務所」，執行歡迎臺商回臺投資方案，基於這個方案，我想剛才委員所講的農漁業的這個問題，我們面對這個問題，幫助臺灣的產業，希望能夠提高它的附加價值並轉向其他的市場，不要只是看中國的市場，這一點我們有積極的在做。是。","quality":0.916},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2024-10-01T09:39:32.856000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T09:39:57.425000+08:00","text":"那剛剛問的34項農產品這個部分，我知道你的標準答案應該就是移轉市場，如果中國真的不是一個好的市場，我們也可以轉到別的市場去，但是那是比較長期的，短期之間馬上就受害，因為他常常不跟你磋商就突然之間提出這樣一個政策作為攻擊的武器，不知道陸委會跟農業部這邊有什麼樣的看法？","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2024-10-01T09:39:58.358000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T09:40:41.391000+08:00","text":"我跟委員報告，其實中國的市場是一個高風險的市場，從100年開始，他們除了用不符合國際貿易的暫停我們的輸出，還用所謂的輸中食品的註冊，所以這三、四年來其實我們已經積極的開拓中國以外的高端市場，我舉一個實際的數字，就是在109年的時候我們在中國以外市場的產值是38.6億，到了去年是43.6億，大概整整多了5億，那在同一個時間我們對中國輸出的部分已經降到了5億左右，所以相對的就是我們對中國市場的倚賴程度也越來越少。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2024-10-01T09:40:42.164000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T09:41:01.501000+08:00","text":"當然，我剛剛講的就是長期你一定要分散風險，然後要到比較高端，那當然對於我們自己的產品，譬如說冷鏈的建構使我們的產品能夠更優質，也才有辦法賣到更高端的市場，這長期是對的，但是在短期的因應方面，對於這些馬上受損的這些人有什麼樣子的作法呢？","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T09:41:01.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T09:41:03.323000+08:00","text":"請陸委會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2024-10-01T09:41:03.323000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T09:42:08.372000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，剛剛講臺商面臨到空前的中國大陸這整個系統性的危機，我們有三個作法，第一個部分當然就是讓他回臺投資、轉型升級，那也協助他全球布局，剛剛你也提到人身安全的風險，在大陸這個風險是明顯提高，除了海基會跟他們保持聯繫、關懷之外，我們陸委會也希望我們在中國大陸的臺商、臺幹或是他的眷屬、臺生還有臺師，我們臺灣人去中國大陸，都要把聯絡的資訊放在我們的動態登錄系統，我們可以提供即時的協助。","quality":0.316},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2024-10-01T09:42:08.372000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T09:42:09.372000+08:00","text":"另外，我們就是要呼籲中國大陸，我們臺商對中國大陸的經濟貢獻是有目共睹的，那他應該要來落實保障我們的臺商朋友。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2024-10-01T09:42:08.712000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T09:42:22.201000+08:00","text":"你說這個呼籲，全世界都在跟他講，叫他不要傾銷，叫他要注意製造業無限制的專注在哪個領域，全用國家的力量去投資，然後傾銷到全世界，全世界都在跟他呼籲，可是這個國家是蠻不講理的國家，這個政府是不合理的政府，所以對中國不要抱這樣的期望。是。","quality":0.695},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2024-10-01T09:42:22.761000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T09:42:26.424000+08:00","text":"必須要知道他是會做最壞的選擇之下我們要怎麼做。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2024-10-01T09:42:26.424000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T09:42:56.199000+08:00","text":"是，我們的國人同胞也要知道，目前跟中國大陸做生意，很多是政策驅動，不是市場驅動，所以是靠著中國大陸他喜不喜歡我們臺灣的政策來驅動這個生意，這種貿易很可能都被武器化，對臺灣進行所謂的經濟制裁，所以我們也呼籲國人對中國大陸，包括觀光客、各種貿易都要有風險概念，做好風險準備。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2024-10-01T09:42:56.199000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T09:43:00.189000+08:00","text":"院長，不好意思，請幾個部長先回座，我請金管會主委來回答一下。好。","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2024-10-01T09:43:03.355000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T09:43:25.569000+08:00","text":"我要請金管會說明最近在中國對金融機構的監理政策，之前他曾經講到我們這邊要增資或是在他那邊營業額超過50%以上，只要想在別的市場做什麼，都要經過他的同意，這個聽說是雷聲大雨點小，但是到現在他也沒有核准過一家，那臺灣這些所謂的KY公司要怎麼辦？","quality":0.829},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2024-10-01T09:43:25.569000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T09:43:26.569000+08:00","text":"變成有兩個公婆啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2024-10-01T09:43:25.709000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T09:43:29.286000+08:00","text":"受我們的管理，然後又要受他的管理，使得這些公司很多的財政模式沒有辦法處理，對這個問題現在有解決的方案嗎？","quality":0.354},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2024-10-01T09:43:42.042000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T09:44:02.079000+08:00","text":"現在我們對這個在大陸的這些暴險，我先跟委員報告一下，先從金融機構來講的話，我們現在是希望它能夠持續的關注風險，然後下降這個比率，我想過去幾年來這個都非常的顯著，我想從很多數據都看得出來。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2024-10-01T09:44:02.079000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T09:44:03.079000+08:00","text":"那我們對大陸的部分，因為確實他們的風險升高，比如說剛剛委員有提到，對於他們不動產這個部分我們也非常嚴密的監控，我們也看到他的暴險，過去逾放的部分確實沒有惡化，也沒有特別的案例出現，我想對這部分我們會嚴密的監控，至於剛剛說的兩岸監理不一致，我們會想辦法來看看怎麼處理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2024-10-01T09:44:02.960000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T09:44:44.771000+08:00","text":"我跟你說暴險的比例，譬如說國有銀行暴險的比例是在下降，但是它的總體金額還是很高，因為這幾年我們經濟發達、資本弄得很高之後，所以那個比例下降有很大的因素是因為我們的base大，但是它的那個額度還是蠻高的。","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2024-10-01T09:44:45.091000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T09:44:49.034000+08:00","text":"對，最高的時候到一兆八千多億，現在是在9,600億左右。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2024-10-01T09:44:49.554000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T09:44:50.675000+08:00","text":"9,600億也是一筆很大的錢。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2024-10-01T09:44:50.675000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T09:45:01.862000+08:00","text":"但是就是相對的，我們整個承受力……因為當年大概是……比如說最高曾經來到淨值的70%，那時候我們的淨值才2.2兆，現在到了4.6兆。對啊！","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2024-10-01T09:45:02.563000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T09:45:03.964000+08:00","text":"所以base等於擴大了1倍。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2024-10-01T09:45:04.644000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T09:45:11.288000+08:00","text":"對，我們還是持續在下降這個……其實我覺得這是一個風險，還有就是我們整個產業隨著政策往其他國家移動……","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2024-10-01T09:45:11.468000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T09:45:14.050000+08:00","text":"我現在不是只有要提醒中國。是。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2024-10-01T09:45:14.050000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T09:45:44.911000+08:00","text":"現在香港被美國參眾兩院在去年12月通過國防授權法，把他列為海外敵對勢力，然後9月10號，美國眾議院又通過了香港經濟貿易辦公室的認證法，這個認證法是很厲害喔，它等於考慮要取消香港駐在美國那邊3個辦公單位。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2024-10-01T09:45:47.672000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T09:46:21.894000+08:00","text":"再來就是參議院如果通過，現在眾議院已經通過了，參議院如果通過，再來就是美國總統要不要批准，在這樣的狀況下，這是很有可能通過的，我們或許對中國的暴險是一件事，臺灣有多少銀行，不論是公股的或是民間的，在香港有這麼多的辦事機構，在香港逐漸變成中國的內地城市這個演變的過程中，我們的因應方式以及我們所要面臨的風險，這個有沒有考慮在內？","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2024-10-01T09:46:21.894000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T09:46:58.798000+08:00","text":"是，在上個會期的時候，委員在委員會上也有指正這件事情，我們回去就把中國跟香港一併考慮，本來是分開來處理，像我們對香港的部分，我們也開始有做一些比較嚴密的考慮，像剛才委員提到的，我們現在在香港國銀的部分大概有19家，大概設有19家分行、1家子行，保險只有2個據點，其實相對的這部分確實是比較多，我們的證券相關行業的家數就更多，那是過去有一些金融市場歷史的因素，我想這部分我們也持續透過很多方式提醒他們這個風險的改變，這個我們會持續來做。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2024-10-01T09:47:02.900000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T09:47:06.926000+08:00","text":"好，那你有掌握我們臺灣在香港掛牌的上市公司有多少嗎？","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2024-10-01T09:47:06.926000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T09:47:33.327000+08:00","text":"我們現在臺資在香港掛牌大概有61家，其中有12家是上市櫃公司同時在那邊做，有11家上市，1家是上櫃公司，所以其實這部分的話，在過去假設你是上市櫃公司，由金管會來主管的話，他們如果要去香港掛牌，我們這邊會有一個審核機制，也希望他們必須要通過他們股東大會的決議才可以做這件事，我們有在做這樣的監控機制。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2024-10-01T09:47:33.447000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T09:47:39.048000+08:00","text":"我是說嚴密地跟他們溝通，要了解他們的狀況，因為他們有可能會遇到很艱難的狀況。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2024-10-01T09:47:39.048000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T09:47:43.429000+08:00","text":"是，我們有透過交易所跟他們在做這樣的聯繫。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2024-10-01T09:47:43.429000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T09:47:43.429000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T09:47:43.429000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T09:47:55.913000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我們會很關心臺灣金融市場的體質跟健全，還有臺灣的臺商也非常的敏感，像我們歡迎臺商回臺投資的行動方案，就已經有超過三百家臺商帶1.3兆的資金回來。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2024-10-01T09:47:56.033000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T09:47:59.014000+08:00","text":"我只是一再的強調，中國跟香港都是有非常大的隱性風險存在。是。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2024-10-01T09:47:59.695000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T09:48:05.257000+08:00","text":"那個是政治力的風險，不是一般的經營上的風險，那是額外的，要注意。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2024-10-01T09:48:05.637000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T09:48:08.618000+08:00","text":"最後我剩下幾秒鐘，有一個建議，第7波的信用緊縮政策，關於在中南部如果是共有房屋的持有人，是不是應該要給他……他沒有其他的房貸就一定要面臨這樣的狀況，我覺得這個應該要趕快檢討。","quality":0.308},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T09:48:08.618000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T09:48:34.609000+08:00","text":"就我所知，央行已經有在做這方面的思考，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2024-10-01T09:48:34.609000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T09:48:35.893000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-01T09:48:35.893000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T09:48:39.064000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝吳委員還有卓院長。","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-01T09:48:39.064000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T09:48:39.446000+08:00","text":"下一位請陳玉珍委員質詢。","quality":0.818}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-01T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:32:54 - 09:48:48","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第2次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","gazette":{"lineno":251,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（9時33分）主席，麻煩請行政院卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：吳委員好。"],["吳委員秉叡：院長早。跟你請教，中國的經濟狀況前一陣子惡化的很嚴重，包括大家都知道他的幾個大的房地產公司都出問題嘛，有的甚至已經被清算、要倒閉，所以房地產有暴跌的情況。我以前常開玩笑說全世界打房最成功的國家就是中國，他把房價打到腰斬，甚至還沒有人要，當然這是一個笑話啦。","再來，第二個是這個國家無論中央或地方的債務都暴增，青年失業率高漲，有一陣子還蓋牌不講，不讓人家知道，當然他現在提出來的數據都是美化過的，之前一年多還有通貨緊縮的狀況，然後加上他又弄了一堆國安法案，譬如說亂抓臺灣人啊，然後發生了深圳，還有中國發生好幾件殺害外國人的這些事件，使得很多外資，包括臺資也都一直在撤離，這是他之前的經濟狀況，狀況很嚴重。但是他上個禮拜弄了一個非常猛的藥，這個猛藥猛到什麼地步？我舉其中我覺得滿離譜的，就是他的央行可以循環借貸，讓人去買進股票、增值自己股票，為了要讓他的股市上漲不要跌，居然讓央行直接、間接的進入股市。這帖藥當然短期內會很有效果，但是其實這就是所謂的「無錨印鈔」，他的貨幣供給量沒有一個根據不停的在增加，所以大水漫灌，短期可能會有一些效果，果然，這幾天看到上海的綜證跟香港的股市的確都有大幅反彈的跡象。但是這是短期跡象，如果沒有實質內容去支撐是撐不下去的，因為如果所有的外資都在撤離，然後你的國家不能夠提供給大家穩定的信用，讓大家能夠相信在你那邊經營是有成果的，是可以享受成果的，那我看這個短期的現象並沒有辦法解決問題。所以我現在就要請教，到底面對中國這樣的經濟情勢，我覺得他這一次的大水漫灌之後，將來的通膨更可以預期，將來資產價格能不能撐得住不知道，但是通膨是絕對可以看得到的後果，我想了解的是，臺灣到底在中國有多少的投資跟多少的產業，就現在的狀況要如何幫助他們能夠離開這一個不合理的經營環境？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝，委員一直很關心，不只是臺灣，也包括兩岸的經濟狀況。冰凍三尺非一日之寒，如果一個人治色彩這麼重，又用軍國主義對外在擴張，本身又是黨國控制，雖然他經過經濟的崛起，數十年來有一定的程度，但是這幾個因素一直存在的話，它必定面臨很嚴重的社會衝擊。現在衝擊已經來臨了，無論下任何的猛藥，到後來都可能是一個沒有辦法回頭的畸形發展。臺灣在很多的產業上面，因為過去跟中國有非常密切的連結跟關係，我們也無法一時間把他斷絕，但是我們也知道，有很多產業，包括金融體系，都有很多在中國的投資，甚至有很多的暴險。不過這個部分，基於營業上、產業上的考量，我們也不宜在這邊多說，但是我認為我們的經濟部、金管會都有相當的掌握。"],["吳委員秉叡：我只是要問說，我要了解說你知道這樣的危機有沒有在做準備、做因應？"],["卓院長榮泰：經濟部跟金管會都有這些投資的對象，本國的產業……"],["吳委員秉叡：我舉一個例子，當然有的不是跟在場的兩位部長直接相關，像9月25號臺灣的34項農產品，他又給你停止零關稅，他老是拿這些經貿上面的惡劣手段來當作他政治上面的攻防，做政治上面的目的操作，這一點，除了這34項之外，後面可能還會繼續再來，我們的政府有準備要怎麼樣應對？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們清楚他現在除了用經濟的壓迫之外，他還有政治的選擇，比方說他開放某一個地方或指定哪一個地方可以，或是要求哪個地方不可以，這個就是政治上的選擇，這個當然對我們都是傷害，我們……"],["吳委員秉叡：這是你我都了解的，我現在是要問，政府準備要怎麼樣面對跟因應？這一點能夠……"],["卓院長榮泰：其實包括經濟部，每次他有這個動作之前、之後，我們都掌握，後來也有一些作為，甚至我們有預留了一些該有的作法，但是不一定每次都會拿出來用，請經濟部來談一下。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們經濟部裡面在之前就已經有成立「投資臺灣事務所」，執行歡迎臺商回臺投資方案，基於這個方案，我想剛才委員所講的農漁業的這個問題，我們面對這個問題，幫助臺灣的產業，希望能夠提高它的附加價值並轉向其他的市場，不要只是看中國的市場，這一點我們有積極的在做。"],["吳委員秉叡：是。那剛剛問的34項農產品這個部分，我知道你的標準答案應該就是移轉市場，如果中國真的不是一個好的市場，我們也可以轉到別的市場去，但是那是比較長期的，短期之間馬上就受害，因為他常常不跟你磋商就突然之間提出這樣一個政策作為攻擊的武器，不知道陸委會跟農業部這邊有什麼樣的看法？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，其實中國的市場是一個高風險的市場，從100年開始，他們除了用不符合國際貿易的暫停我們的輸出，還用所謂的輸中食品的註冊，所以這三、四年來其實我們已經積極的開拓中國以外的高端市場，我舉一個實際的數字，就是在109年的時候我們在中國以外市場的產值是38.6億，到了去年是43.6億，大概整整多了5億，那在同一個時間我們對中國輸出的部分已經降到了5億左右，所以相對的就是我們對中國市場的倚賴程度也越來越少。"],["吳委員秉叡：當然，我剛剛講的就是長期你一定要分散風險，然後要到比較高端，那當然對於我們自己的產品，譬如說冷鏈的建構使我們的產品能夠更優質，也才有辦法賣到更高端的市場，這長期是對的，但是在短期的因應方面，對於這些馬上受損的這些人有什麼樣子的作法呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：請陸委會。"],["邱主任委員垂正：跟委員報告，剛剛講臺商面臨到空前的中國大陸這整個系統性的危機，我們有三個作法，第一個部分當然就是讓他回臺投資、轉型升級，那也協助他全球布局，剛剛你也提到人身安全的風險，在大陸這個風險是明顯提高，除了海基會跟他們保持聯繫、關懷之外，我們陸委會也希望我們在中國大陸的臺商、臺幹或是他的眷屬、臺生還有臺師，我們臺灣人去中國大陸，都要把聯絡的資訊放在我們的動態登錄系統，我們可以提供即時的協助。另外，我們就是要呼籲中國大陸，我們臺商對中國大陸的經濟貢獻是有目共睹的，那他應該要來落實保障我們的臺商朋友。"],["吳委員秉叡：你說這個呼籲，全世界都在跟他講，叫他不要傾銷，叫他要注意製造業無限制的專注在哪個領域，全用國家的力量去投資，然後傾銷到全世界，全世界都在跟他呼籲，可是這個國家是蠻不講理的國家，這個政府是不合理的政府，所以對中國不要抱這樣的期望。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：必須要知道他是會做最壞的選擇之下我們要怎麼做。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是，我們的國人同胞也要知道，目前跟中國大陸做生意，很多是政策驅動，不是市場驅動，所以是靠著中國大陸他喜不喜歡我們臺灣的政策來驅動這個生意，這種貿易很可能都被武器化，對臺灣進行所謂的經濟制裁，所以我們也呼籲國人對中國大陸，包括觀光客、各種貿易都要有風險概念，做好風險準備。"],["吳委員秉叡：院長，不好意思，請幾個部長先回座，我請金管會主委來回答一下。"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["吳委員秉叡：我要請金管會說明最近在中國對金融機構的監理政策，之前他曾經講到我們這邊要增資或是在他那邊營業額超過50%以上，只要想在別的市場做什麼，都要經過他的同意，這個聽說是雷聲大雨點小，但是到現在他也沒有核准過一家，那臺灣這些所謂的KY公司要怎麼辦？變成有兩個公婆啊！受我們的管理，然後又要受他的管理，使得這些公司很多的財政模式沒有辦法處理，對這個問題現在有解決的方案嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在我們對這個在大陸的這些暴險，我先跟委員報告一下，先從金融機構來講的話，我們現在是希望它能夠持續的關注風險，然後下降這個比率，我想過去幾年來這個都非常的顯著，我想從很多數據都看得出來。那我們對大陸的部分，因為確實他們的風險升高，比如說剛剛委員有提到，對於他們不動產這個部分我們也非常嚴密的監控，我們也看到他的暴險，過去逾放的部分確實沒有惡化，也沒有特別的案例出現，我想對這部分我們會嚴密的監控，至於剛剛說的兩岸監理不一致，我們會想辦法來看看怎麼處理。"],["吳委員秉叡：我跟你說暴險的比例，譬如說國有銀行暴險的比例是在下降，但是它的總體金額還是很高，因為這幾年我們經濟發達、資本弄得很高之後，所以那個比例下降有很大的因素是因為我們的base大，但是它的那個額度還是蠻高的。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，最高的時候到一兆八千多億，現在是在9,600億左右。"],["吳委員秉叡：9,600億也是一筆很大的錢。"],["彭主任委員金隆：但是就是相對的，我們整個承受力……因為當年大概是……比如說最高曾經來到淨值的70%，那時候我們的淨值才2.2兆，現在到了4.6兆。"],["吳委員秉叡：對啊！所以base等於擴大了1倍。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我們還是持續在下降這個……其實我覺得這是一個風險，還有就是我們整個產業隨著政策往其他國家移動……"],["吳委員秉叡：我現在不是只有要提醒中國。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：現在香港被美國參眾兩院在去年12月通過國防授權法，把他列為海外敵對勢力，然後9月10號，美國眾議院又通過了香港經濟貿易辦公室的認證法，這個認證法是很厲害喔，它等於考慮要取消香港駐在美國那邊3個辦公單位。再來就是參議院如果通過，現在眾議院已經通過了，參議院如果通過，再來就是美國總統要不要批准，在這樣的狀況下，這是很有可能通過的，我們或許對中國的暴險是一件事，臺灣有多少銀行，不論是公股的或是民間的，在香港有這麼多的辦事機構，在香港逐漸變成中國的內地城市這個演變的過程中，我們的因應方式以及我們所要面臨的風險，這個有沒有考慮在內？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，在上個會期的時候，委員在委員會上也有指正這件事情，我們回去就把中國跟香港一併考慮，本來是分開來處理，像我們對香港的部分，我們也開始有做一些比較嚴密的考慮，像剛才委員提到的，我們現在在香港國銀的部分大概有19家，大概設有19家分行、1家子行，保險只有2個據點，其實相對的這部分確實是比較多，我們的證券相關行業的家數就更多，那是過去有一些金融市場歷史的因素，我想這部分我們也持續透過很多方式提醒他們這個風險的改變，這個我們會持續來做。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，那你有掌握我們臺灣在香港掛牌的上市公司有多少嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們現在臺資在香港掛牌大概有61家，其中有12家是上市櫃公司同時在那邊做，有11家上市，1家是上櫃公司，所以其實這部分的話，在過去假設你是上市櫃公司，由金管會來主管的話，他們如果要去香港掛牌，我們這邊會有一個審核機制，也希望他們必須要通過他們股東大會的決議才可以做這件事，我們有在做這樣的監控機制。"],["吳委員秉叡：我是說嚴密地跟他們溝通，要了解他們的狀況，因為他們有可能會遇到很艱難的狀況。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，我們有透過交易所跟他們在做這樣的聯繫。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我們會很關心臺灣金融市場的體質跟健全，還有臺灣的臺商也非常的敏感，像我們歡迎臺商回臺投資的行動方案，就已經有超過三百家臺商帶1.3兆的資金回來。"],["吳委員秉叡：我只是一再的強調，中國跟香港都是有非常大的隱性風險存在。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：那個是政治力的風險，不是一般的經營上的風險，那是額外的，要注意。最後我剩下幾秒鐘，有一個建議，第7波的信用緊縮政策，關於在中南部如果是共有房屋的持有人，是不是應該要給他……他沒有其他的房貸就一定要面臨這樣的狀況，我覺得這個應該要趕快檢討。"],["卓院長榮泰：就我所知，央行已經有在做這方面的思考，謝謝。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝吳委員還有卓院長。","下一位請陳玉珍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":204,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-2","speakers":["江啟臣","楊瓊瓔","吳秉叡","陳玉珍","王定宇","邱鎮軍","蘇巧慧","吳宗憲","楊曜","游顥","蘇清泉","林淑芬","廖偉翔","許宇甄","張宏陸"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2024-10-01"],"gazette_id":"1137601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第2次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1137601_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}