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sense吧部長"},{"start":507.775,"end":533.752,"text":"這個是的確 我想法院一定是根據訴訟法第7色的規定來做一個懲罰來羈押部長 重罪不是羈押的唯一理由 這你可以去隨便問一下一個檢察官你不能犯這種最低階的錯誤這個我們不是低階錯誤 我們就是就法論法好啦 沒關係 我不跟你爭辯反正我告訴你就是這樣 重罪不是唯一羈押的理由所以這些人有可能會被法院放掉 那你們有沒有因應之道"},{"start":537.56,"end":539.521,"text":"如果法院不押你們有沒有因應之道"},{"start":568.12,"end":591.907,"text":"委員您也是擔任過檢察官你也知道跟法院之間這種關係法院真的不押檢察官也沒有辦法但是我認為這幾個案件他除了是一個嚴重之罪之外他都經過確定的審判所以很確定他在這個行為人必須負這個責任我認為法院還是會做最清楚的如果需要的話最清楚的決定"},{"start":599.144,"end":604.949,"text":"除非法院有判決無罪要釋放之外只要判決是有罪的我認為法院會押"},{"start":605.899,"end":626.733,"text":"好不好那你認為法官押那我現在問你說法官如果不押因為依照刑事訴訟法規定即要有他一定的要件那依照我來看現行的這些人他符合要件不是每個人都百分之百符合所以常常檢察官認為要押法官就沒有押嘛那如果今天法官沒有押的情況下把人"},{"start":627.614,"end":654.037,"text":"沒有其他的理由了那我只是在請教法務部有沒有因應的作為我相信我相信那就沒有意思了部長院長大家都內行人不用在那邊講外行話法院如果不押的話法務部請問有什麼作為題目就那麼簡單我不認為這些已經經過三審定言的案件法院的判決會的結果會有會有不押的一個情形"},{"start":656.348,"end":656.588,"text":"我也是嘆為觀止阿"},{"start":684.888,"end":708.531,"text":"這我想全國的這37個死刑犯他所造成的61條人命的家屬大概不能接受你們的這個意見第二個問題請教院長跟部長執行他們判決死刑確定之後收容的這段時間將來可不可以如果將來改判無期徒刑的話或改判有期徒刑的話可不可以折抵刑期收容的期間"},{"start":710.971,"end":725.172,"text":"這個因為根據刑法的規定必須要執行之後才有折抵的問題那現在是待執行待執行的實行犯這個首長是不能依法的是不能折抵那如果說我們那個修法的這份我們也是反對折抵的"},{"start":727.257,"end":745.123,"text":"就是這部分你們反對折抵嘛那我想說這個只是一個確定下來因為以前沒有這個問題那現在既然發生了因為如果可以折抵的話會造成很多人將來萬一判無嫉妒刑他馬上就可以申請假釋對不對因為最終審頂多押6次12個月嘛"},{"start":745.763,"end":761.963,"text":"那如果說12個月後他判無期徒刑那再回過頭去算那個收容的期間有的已經20幾年還沒有執行嘛那收容的期間加進來搞不好適用舊法15年的假釋的申請的話那搞不好他們在判決"},{"start":763.713,"end":784.916,"text":"吳齊徒刑的那個時候他就可以申請假釋了所以我蠻認同部長剛剛說的收容期間你們不會列入刑期的計算我是要確認這個點部長這有沒有什麼問題現實的情況就是不能折抵那我現在是一個很深刻的期望這我本來只想問五分鐘但花太多時間了"},{"start":785.56,"end":803.776,"text":"我希望一件事情,因為這幾天那個新北戈歐岸那個楊爸爸他昨天在接受訪問的時候甚至哭出來了我們都有小孩子嘛,我們都知道白髮人送黑髮人那種心痛那絕對是傷痛欲絕,我們都能夠理解嘛我希望一件事情,不要對這些被害者的家屬"},{"start":805.367,"end":806.388,"text":"我們一定要讓這個國家對好人更好對壞人更好"},{"start":833.427,"end":845.801,"text":"我們還是要讓這些犯罪的行為人要讓他們付出該有的代價部長你跟我以前都是檢察官我們對於正義真的是無可救藥的熱情我們一定要這樣堅持下去好不好"},{"start":847.659,"end":868.793,"text":"我們體會委員的心情這個部分我們是站在同一個線上對這種在為非作歹的這些歹徒我覺得公權力一定要伸張起來對就是公權力我們一定要讓他伸張我們要讓人民要尊重公權力這樣社會才會平安所以前一天我有講"},{"start":870.315,"end":878.214,"text":"當人民千方百計的在追求出入平安的時候我們的政府不能千方百計的為這些犯罪行為的人去求情"},{"start":879.025,"end":880.185,"text":"那我再請教一下院長喔院長"},{"start":902.506,"end":924.204,"text":"還包括那個法務部長我們其實在之前我們就提出來要求說因為我們一直希望說接避責保護法我們讓他能夠過讓他能夠順利的立法但是呢我們要求能夠在兩個月內把草案送過來因為這草案已經出來了嘛但是一直沒有送來可不可以告訴我們"},{"start":925.084,"end":948.997,"text":"趕快把他送來因為我們經過上一次的國會改革法案動不動你就給我送視線然後我們今天我們跟民眾黨我們有一些草案希望出來結果到時候又要被你們送視線嗎所以是不是行政院這邊可以趕快把揭秘者這個草案送到立法院來讓我們能夠審我們能夠把各個版本趕快審出一個對國家有幫助的"},{"start":949.958,"end":967.116,"text":"因為國家有很多弊案包括之前的雞蛋超市的問題武器採購的問題疫苗採購的問題我們真的深刻的希望有這些接避者能夠勇於出來接避但是我們真的需要他們我們需要這個法案過關可不可以請你們趕快把草案送到立法院來"},{"start":968.035,"end":989.707,"text":"包括法務部也正在審查過程當中我們認為對於公司部門要做怎麼樣的原則性的處置還在深度的討論但是進度是有的那我希望這個能夠來凝聚更高一點的共識我們再來放在修法過程當中時間真的太久了時間真的太久了如果說你們對私部門還有所"},{"start":990.919,"end":991.96,"text":"這部分我們那個法務部已經"},{"start":1011.059,"end":1038.779,"text":"連理了第15版因為我們要廣大各界的一個意見嘛應該跟委員清楚現在本來是公私合併後來公私公私分立的立法的一個政策那我想公部門這邊我們再廣大意見我們是提出第15個版本那我只能拜託你們速度能夠加快好不好如果真的不行的話那我們這邊就只好用我們的版本開始審理我們就只能這樣做因為從上個會期我們就一直拜託你們了而且這個法案已經躺在你們那裡躺了很久"},{"start":1039.139,"end":1067.194,"text":"所以真的要麻煩你們速度能夠快那再來 院長其實這段時間我們看到很多問題包括我個人認為能源政策是整個錯誤的政策你不要跟我講什麼AI內閣AI最需要的就是電力那你現在講你以後將來電力的狀況能不能夠補上這個缺口我覺得明眼人都知道未來會怎麼樣只是大家現在都不談而已好 那我們現在先不著重這個問題我想跟院長請教一下"},{"start":1070.466,"end":1085.76,"text":"煙圈這個東西我認為這個東西我們是不是應該思考一下最近是不是很長一段時間我們該漲的不漲不該漲的卻一直漲比如說電價我認為說一個正確的能源政策他就不會說讓電價今天漲成這樣"},{"start":1088.763,"end":1100.631,"text":"那我現在也為什麼不想再問電的問題因為我覺得問來問去答案都是騙人的就像最早期民進黨跟我們講說台電在偷電結果呢 台電有沒有偷電 沒有啊民進黨政府跟我說"},{"start":1101.806,"end":1126.773,"text":"御能之後臺灣不會缺電結果呢我認為不缺電是騙人那告訴我說不會大規模的漲電價這也都騙人所以到最後我已經被騙了三次了我真的沒有辦法再相信你們對於能源方面的給我們的保證那我是請教一下有關那個菸娟的部分其實我們菸娟已經非常久沒有去討論這個議題了我不知道院長知不知道這個部分"},{"start":1128.337,"end":1129.158,"text":"吳宗憲今年底會做檢討"},{"start":1151.994,"end":1171.639,"text":"的制度會做檢討因為今年應該會再開會因為每兩年要開一次會我們是不是要再思考這個部分因為我從國建署的資料來看CNN人口是上升的這是國建署自己公布的資料所以如果這樣的話你去漲電價不該漲的漲結果燕捐從98年到現在沒有調漲過"},{"start":1176.38,"end":1176.4,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":1208.05,"end":1236.092,"text":"另外那個我們請那個經濟部長這邊我有一個問題想要請教一下就是我們在2022年有提出一個能源轉型就是淨零排放路徑跟策略總說明裡面有四個領域就是能源轉型產業轉型生活轉型跟社會轉型那我想請問一下我們總共編列的預算有1161億那你知不知道"},{"start":1237.49,"end":1258.161,"text":"我們這個所謂的四大領域的12項關鍵戰略是什麼使用經費最高的前三名是什麼請問那個部長知道嗎這個部分我不是那麼清楚好吧沒關係那可是這花了我們一千多億所以部長要麻煩你不能不清楚"},{"start":1258.939,"end":1278.115,"text":"那其實我們使用最高的費用最高是電力系統儲能第二是風電光電第三是節能那我必須講一下這個還是源自於我個人認為錯誤的能源政策至少我自己個人這麼認為我知道各位一定有很多理由但是我個人認為我國能源政策是完全錯誤而且他帶動的那個"},{"start":1280.233,"end":1306.796,"text":"BPI的漲幅其實人民是痛苦的他讓我們的人民的實質薪資倒退其實他一連串發生了很多問題甚至發生了讓我們將來我們的產業要再往前進我們的外銷要再擴展要降低成本這都變成將來都是不可能的事情所以這樣子的能源政策他其實是讓某些特定人賺了大錢但是他苦了全體的人民我想"},{"start":1309.154,"end":1315.603,"text":"在立場上面也許我們各有立場但是我想心裡大家可能想法也不會插到太多所以"},{"start":1317.335,"end":1342.621,"text":"所以我剛剛跟那個部長說你還是要去弄清楚因為花了一千多億不能說都沒有什麼效果出來你剛剛那個成本的這樣的標示不是非常的正確核電的部分要很多的隱性的成本跟未來的成本那風電太陽能光電它也有非常多隱性的成本他們將來這些東西過了年限之後的銷毀以及它對於自然環境的傷害"},{"start":1343.541,"end":1363.833,"text":"這個東西院長也是隱形的成本但是呢兩個權衡之下誰好誰壞你要去思考為什麼全世界的主流是那樣我們反主流而行然後你現在跟我說的隱形成本世界的大廠來台灣都要求我們要提供綠電說我們必須要提供綠電給他們男人跟世界接軌"},{"start":1365.974,"end":1393.323,"text":"但是你要去思考一下這真的是永續了嗎還是一樣還有一個SDGs他所對於產品生產能源的要求他的能源要綠能乾淨能源的要求這個未來做不做得到將來碳稅的問題將來某些國家或歐盟地區等等不願意採購骯髒能源所生產的產品這個都是我們要考量我們不能把這個責任丟給10年後20年後的這些人民他們自己去承受"},{"start":1393.743,"end":1394.063,"text":"吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員"},{"start":1409.314,"end":1435.473,"text":"我們花那麼多錢我們希望降低碳排但是其實這段時間碳排還是一樣非常的嚴重那我想說這個也是再回過頭去還是還是一樣能源的問題因為一個錯誤能源政策讓我們每個人均的碳排指數其實非常的高甚至超越到超越日本韓國那些所以我們這個對嗎這我想說可能再麻煩"},{"start":1436.781,"end":1451.956,"text":"行政院這邊能夠多去思考一下這個部分後面我想請教一個問題就是江部長我想請教一下其他部長是不是請回我想請問一下"},{"start":1461.912,"end":1485.789,"text":"你之前有說台鐵霧點5分鐘是可以接受那真的霧點是好嗎那你知不知道去年霧點的狀況是什麼我沒有說5分鐘可以接受我那天覺得霧點5分鐘對我來說當然沒有像高鐵那麼精準所以還有改善的空間但是台鐵他們給我的數據他們算的所謂的霧點率的部分5分鐘以內算在準點率裡面"},{"start":1487.244,"end":1508.791,"text":"但是我可以跟你說私人的企業可不這麼接受甚至你不要講別的我們立法院開會9點開會9點就要開會也沒有所謂的霧點這個東西所以這東西你這樣講了以後底下台鐵人都鬆一口氣超開心這是他們原本就訂好的標準這不是我講的這是他們原本就訂好的標準"},{"start":1509.318,"end":1530.412,"text":"但我還是有要求像高鐵這麼精準才是大家想要的目標所以我希望台鐵的準點率要再加強那你總是要有一些想法跟措施出來嗎那所以我剛問你你知不知道台鐵去年誤點多少次你知道嗎次數我不曉得您的數字是143萬次然後發生率是五成其實這個是還滿驚人的那所以"},{"start":1536.38,"end":1556.871,"text":"我認為他應該要更準點,我的想法會跟委員是一樣的他應該要更準點讓民眾不管是通勤也好或者是長途旅遊也好可以抓準自己的時間不會影響到上下班"},{"start":1559.929,"end":1576.927,"text":"我們就只能跟那新任的部長那你還是要解決這個台鐵問題因為我自己辦公室主任他常常知道我辦公室主任非常常知道因為他都要坐台鐵來上班然後每次我跟他溝通的時候我就講不下去了因為台鐵就是常常誤點"},{"start":1579.269,"end":1598.06,"text":"開車過來反而花更多時間,所以他都是搭乘交通工具我不是在那邊湊他啦,我只是說台鐵霧點這個是一個很大的問題,要麻煩,尤其很多施部門開會是不允許遲到的那你這樣會讓有一些民眾其實他們是困擾那第二個問題我要跟部長就教的就是"},{"start":1600.33,"end":1613.804,"text":"捷運或高鐵站台都有裝設那個門月台門我自己以前的工作經驗我曾經也驗過幾次那個就是鐵路的事故"},{"start":1615.986,"end":1617.768,"text":"報告委員我們目前有規劃在高雄站的部分"},{"start":1637.162,"end":1637.182,"text":"吳宗憲議員"},{"start":1660.857,"end":1663.819,"text":"目前火車是不是沒有辦法停到定點的位置 有沒有這個問題"},{"start":1687.072,"end":1703.519,"text":"因為他們每一種列車的設計不太一樣高低也會有落差門的前後也會有落差但是我看他們停車的部分都還是停在設定的點上面停在設定點上這個是沒有問題的但是門的位置可能都不太一樣"},{"start":1704.519,"end":1732.572,"text":"這樣我知道所以問題是在你們的位置那另外還有一件事情就是我們那個臺東的部分就因為我們臺東那個立委黃建斌立委他一直在協調臺東的旅遊補助能夠跟花蓮看齊但是他努力了很久也沒有用可是上次民進黨莊瑞雄委一到花蓮去認養服務處之後那你們馬上就同意而且他對外宣傳說他搞定了那我想請問一下這是怎麼回事"},{"start":1734.672,"end":1751.487,"text":"不是我們一直在朝這個方向努力包含我本人到花蓮跟花蓮的旅宿業者跟觀光業者座談的時候也有台東的代表過來他也有跟我表示這樣的意見跟誰去任養花蓮這個任養台東這絕對沒有關係我上次到花蓮我們就決定說花蓮跟台東要同時"},{"start":1760.134,"end":1761.775,"text":"部長以前是政治系出身的"},{"start":1782.045,"end":1800.039,"text":"那當然我是說 真心俗稱但在施政上面我覺得還是不要有那種政治的分別當然我們現在我們看到的是結論嘛那結論看到的就是說國民黨的立委黃建斌一直在在努力奔走可是他達不到什麼效果但是鍾瑞雄委員一到台東卻"},{"start":1801.28,"end":1830.666,"text":"就可以很順利的做到很多事情那施政上面總是不要有敵我之分那如果是誤解那也可以用其他的方式來讓大家知道這是個誤解好不好好那最後我想跟院長報告因為時間不夠就是老人的問題因為現在低收入的那個族群65歲以上的這低收入一直在增加那依照現在不動產的這個價格大家也都買不起所以是不是"},{"start":1832.026,"end":1834.527,"text":"謝謝吳委員 謝謝卓院長下一位楊耀委員的質詢"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:34:38.531000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:34:41.632000+08:00","text":"麻煩請院長還有法務部長、經濟部長以及交通部長。","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-01T11:34:41.632000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:34:44.633000+08:00","text":"請卓院長還有法務部長、交通部長及經濟部長。","quality":0.737},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T11:35:07.882000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:35:08.262000+08:00","text":"吳委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:35:10.244000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:35:12.125000+08:00","text":"院長、部長、各位早安。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:35:12.945000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:35:49.573000+08:00","text":"院長，3個多月前我質詢的時候曾經有跟你提過，我們希望你不是只擔任民進黨的大師兄，其實你要當我們中華民國的大師兄，要照顧我們全臺灣人，但是這段時間下來，從國會改革激烈的鬥爭；還有新青安、物價通膨、兩岸緊張；還有總統放棄和平的這種想法，都讓我覺得這與當初希望院長能夠擔任全民大師兄的想法，好像都是背道而馳的。","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:36:13.919000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:36:26.645000+08:00","text":"關於上一次有很多部長請假的這件事情，也讓我想到當初我們國會改革的法案，其實條文裡面就有說怎麼樣可以請假，只要經過主席同意就可以，但是這個法案到最後被大家、被你們聯手把它擋在外面，否則以韓院長的個性，部長找個原因向他請假，我想韓院長應該都會同意，也不會造成後面有這麼多的問題；甚至大家還談論到，這是不是違反了憲法權力分立上面行政院應該對立法院負責的概念。","quality":0.384},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:36:29.144000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:36:45.016000+08:00","text":"我看到第8屆第4會期其實也是有類似的狀況，但民進黨那時候是用毀憲亂政當作理由，直接要求行政院江宜樺前院長要先道歉，然後才能上臺進行施政報告。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:36:46.177000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:37:01.509000+08:00","text":"至少今天國民黨的作法，不是把整個議場鬧得亂哄哄，大家回過頭去想第8屆民進黨的那個作法，所以我是建議還是不要這樣子，不要把立法院不當一回事，至少你要向民意負責。","quality":0.861},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:37:05.102000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:37:44.357000+08:00","text":"另外，我覺得這段時間你也要去思考一個點，總統依照憲法，負責的範圍應該是國防、外交，但是總統卻被另外一個部長來認證，他可以直接下指示，對於你底下的部長去下一道命令、去指示、去訓斥他，其實這個東西就坐實了、由部長來認證我們的總統其實是一個獨裁而且破壞憲政體制的總統，因為總統認為他不需要到立法院接受質詢，結果他卻可以去指揮行政院底下的部長，我覺得這個都不對，這整個都是在破壞我國的憲政體制，民進黨不能這樣啊！","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:37:44.357000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:37:58.681000+08:00","text":"民進黨不能當憲法對自己有利的時候才挑來用，動不動罵別人毀憲亂政，但是真正想破壞憲法的卻是民進黨政府，它只挑對自己有利的東西來用，然後整天在那邊喊一些莫名其妙、毀憲亂政的話。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:38:01.153000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:38:16.971000+08:00","text":"本席希望大家能夠好好的彼此磨合，包括行政院跟我們這些立法委員之間，我相信第一次我們是可以好好談；如果第二次行政院還是讓國家這樣子下去的話，我想民怨還是會出來。","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:38:16.971000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:38:29.975000+08:00","text":"尤其最近又看到總統的信任度、滿意度跌下來，不滿意度又上升，其實在在都顯現這段時間也許施政上面是有問題的，那可不可以聽聽我們在講什麼？","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:38:29.975000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:38:35.240000+08:00","text":"不要所有的事情都是你想幹什麼，你就自己恣意妄為。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:38:35.540000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:39:10.519000+08:00","text":"從這段時間、從2022年的數據來看，其實貧富差距是加大的，政府最喜歡用所謂的吉尼係數，我們看到最高組別跟最低組別的家庭所得差距已經到了6.15倍，用吉尼係數來算已經到了0.342，若到達0.4的話，依據聯合國的標準，就會造成社會動盪，其實我們每年都在往那個方向走，這個請行政院千萬要注意，我們不要往0.4的這個方向走，就是聯合國認定會造成社會動盪的這個方向走。","quality":0.888},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:39:11.620000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:39:20.226000+08:00","text":"還有，目前國人的待業痛苦指數是往上飆的，開心指數是往下降的，這都有數據可以證明。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:39:21.567000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:39:26.511000+08:00","text":"還有75%的社會新鮮人認為自己每個月都存不到錢。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:39:26.611000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:39:36.058000+08:00","text":"我再跟院長報告，其實月光族現在已經是幸福的，因為有非常大的比例其實是根本不夠支應相關的生活費。","quality":0.841},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:39:36.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T11:39:50.318667+08:00","text":"還有國家整體的發展，這段時間我們的CPI一直是在暴漲的；據瑞士洛桑管理學院最近的公布，我們的經濟排名已經從第6名掉到第26名，這個指數一直在往下降，可能行政院自己要稍微注意一下。","quality":0.263},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:39:50.318667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T11:40:04.579333+08:00","text":"還有這段時間的新青安政策，其實讓大家非常痛苦。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:40:04.579333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T11:40:18.840000+08:00","text":"尤其四年後的新青安會讓四年後的年輕人首購更痛苦，這是大家可以預測到的，所有行內的人都已經知道這個狀況。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:40:18.840000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:40:28.611000+08:00","text":"尤其現在的房價，平均人民不吃不喝，目前全國已經到10.35年，而臺北甚至到16.08年，所以政府到底在創造什麼？","quality":0.721},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:40:28.611000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:40:37.221000+08:00","text":"蔡政府上任的第一年告訴大家，他要處理的是居住正義，結果他的居住正義帶來的是建商的居住正義，讓人民越來越痛苦！","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:40:38.362000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:40:53.450000+08:00","text":"接下來我想請問院長跟法務部長，我想請教一下，大法官千方百計幫這37個死刑犯找免死的理由，不要再跟我說死刑合憲，並沒有實質廢死。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:40:54.071000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:40:56.612000+08:00","text":"大家都內行人，不用講外行話。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:40:56.752000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:41:05.997000+08:00","text":"我請教院長還有部長，判決如果被廢棄之後，死刑犯會不會被放掉？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-01T11:41:08.494000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:41:25.466000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，這是憲判的意旨，不過判決必須請總長先審核有非常上訴的事由之後，才會向最高法院提非常上訴。","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-01T11:41:25.466000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:41:33.071000+08:00","text":"當然，最高法院就這個案件，如果像委員所講的撤銷的話，這是憲判的意旨，羈押……","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:41:34.032000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:41:34.972000+08:00","text":"沒有關係，你不要跟我講憲判。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:41:34.972000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T11:41:37.794000+08:00","text":"你就說如果回復、重回終審法院判決時，死刑犯會不會被放掉？","quality":0.28},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-01T11:41:37.794000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:41:38.915000+08:00","text":"在判決之前不會放掉。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-01T11:41:39.095000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:41:41.057000+08:00","text":"根據監獄行刑法第一百四十八條第一項規定，能繼續收容中。","quality":0.68},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:41:52.958000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:41:59.323000+08:00","text":"死刑判決已經被非常上訴撤掉了，還可以收容嗎？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-01T11:41:59.323000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:42:04.867000+08:00","text":"那是判決之前，如果非常上訴最高法院……","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:42:04.867000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T11:42:05.867000+08:00","text":"不是，我已經說……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-01T11:42:05.027000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:42:11.432000+08:00","text":"判決要重新來，要羈押的，我們會建請羈押，羈押是重新計算的。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:42:11.612000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:42:12.273000+08:00","text":"法院不押呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:42:13.414000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:42:14.194000+08:00","text":"法院可以不押啊。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:42:15.195000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:42:17.677000+08:00","text":"如果法院不押，這37個人你們怎麼處理？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-01T11:42:19.078000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:42:21.320000+08:00","text":"我們建議法院要羈押。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:42:22.574000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:42:24.575000+08:00","text":"你只能建議，但法院可以不押！","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:42:25.116000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:42:32.821000+08:00","text":"羈押的理由很簡單，依照刑事訴訟法，除了重罪之外，必須要有逃亡之虞或串證之虞……","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-01T11:42:34.002000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:42:35.703000+08:00","text":"這是最嚴重的犯罪。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-01T11:42:36.084000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:42:45.730000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，這是最嚴重的犯罪，訴訟法第七十六條這是五年以上的重罪，是重罪羈押。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:42:46.751000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:42:51.735000+08:00","text":"部長，重罪不能當作唯一羈押理由，這應該是common sense吧，部長？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-01T11:42:53.576000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:42:59.219000+08:00","text":"我想法院一定是根據訴訟法第七十六條的規定來羈押。","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:42:59.520000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:43:06.564000+08:00","text":"部長，重罪不是羈押的唯一理由，你可以去隨便問一個檢察官，你不能犯這種最低階的錯誤。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-01T11:43:06.564000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:43:08.745000+08:00","text":"這不是低階錯誤，這是就法論法。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:43:10.286000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:43:14.629000+08:00","text":"好，沒關係，我不跟你爭辯這個，反正我告訴你的就是：重罪不是唯一羈押的理由。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:43:15.069000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:43:18.732000+08:00","text":"所以這些人有可能會被法院放掉，你們有沒有因應之道？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:43:22.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:43:24.501000+08:00","text":"如果法院不押，你們有沒有因應之道？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-01T11:43:24.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T11:43:28.589429+08:00","text":"我想這是假設性的問題！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:43:28.589429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T11:43:32.677857+08:00","text":"這不是假設性的問題！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:43:32.677857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T11:43:36.766286+08:00","text":"就算這是假設性的問題，部裡面應該要有所因應吧？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:43:36.766286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T11:43:40.854714+08:00","text":"這問題已經吵十幾年了，部裡面難道沒有任何因應嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:43:40.854714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T11:43:44.943143+08:00","text":"今天不是一定羈押，法官可以不押人，這點你我都知道。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:43:44.943143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T11:43:49.031571+08:00","text":"如果回到終審法院審判時，若法院認為沒有逃亡之虞，也沒有串證之虞，這時候如果法官放人呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:43:49.031571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T11:43:53.120000+08:00","text":"部裡面沒有任何作為嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T11:43:53.120000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:43:57.941000+08:00","text":"委員，您也擔任過檢察官，你也知道跟法院之間的這種關係……不是……","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T11:43:57.941000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:44:01.542000+08:00","text":"法院真的不押，檢察官也沒有辦法。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T11:44:01.723000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:44:12.986000+08:00","text":"但是我認為這幾個案件除了是嚴重之罪外，都經過確定的審判，所以很確定這個行為人必須負這個責任。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T11:44:13.146000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:44:16.887000+08:00","text":"我認為法院還是會做最清楚的，如果有需要的話，會做最清楚的決定。","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:44:16.887000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T11:44:24.144000+08:00","text":"院長，我是說得很簡單，法院不押的話，法務部有什麼作為？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-01T11:44:24.144000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:44:29.929000+08:00","text":"除非法院判決無罪要釋放之外，只要判決有罪的，我認為法院會押。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:44:31.339000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:44:35.102000+08:00","text":"你認為法官會押，我現在是問你法官如果不押。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:44:35.442000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:44:36.483000+08:00","text":"依照刑事訴訟法規定……","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-01T11:44:36.483000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T11:44:37.864000+08:00","text":"法官不押的話只有無罪的可能……","quality":0.077},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:44:37.864000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:44:48.411000+08:00","text":"羈押有一定的要件，依我來看，現行這些人不是每個人都百分之百符合，常常檢察官認為要押，法官就沒有押！","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:44:49.212000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:44:59.100000+08:00","text":"如果今天法官沒有押的情況下，沒有羈押理由了，我只是要請教法務部有沒有因應的作為，結果你們跟我講那麼多，那就沒有意思了！","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-01T11:44:59.100000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T11:45:00.100000+08:00","text":"我相信……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:44:59.480000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:45:08.088000+08:00","text":"部長、院長，大家都是內行人，不用在那邊講外行話，法院如果不押的話，請問法務部有什麼作為？","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:45:08.088000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:45:09.689000+08:00","text":"題目就這麼簡單。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-01T11:45:09.689000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:45:19.017000+08:00","text":"我不認為這些已經經過三審定讞的案件，法院的判決結果會有不押的情形，我想就像委員跟我都是……","quality":0.732},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:45:19.017000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T11:45:26.734750+08:00","text":"部長，你以前當檢察官的時候聲請羈押有沒有法院……不過你那時候可能沒有這個問題，全國檢察官聲押時都認為法院會押，但是法官常常都把人放掉，所以部長，我們不能坐在那邊說法官一定押。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-01T11:45:26.734750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T11:45:34.452500+08:00","text":"我們對法院要有信心。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:45:34.452500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T11:45:42.170250+08:00","text":"因為你也沒有命令法官的權限嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:45:42.170250+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T11:45:49.888000+08:00","text":"好吧，你沒辦法回答這個問題，我知道你們根本就還沒有任何因應的作為，但是這個問題已經吵十幾年了，到今天跟我說沒有因應的作為，我也是嘆為觀止啦！","quality":0.109},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:45:49.888000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:45:56.715000+08:00","text":"我想這37個死刑犯所造成61條人命的家屬大概不能接受你們的這個意見啦！","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:45:56.715000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:46:12.590000+08:00","text":"第二個問題請教院長跟部長，他們判決死刑確定之後收容的這段時間，如果將來改判無期徒刑或者改判有期徒刑，可不可以折抵刑期？","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:46:13.050000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:46:13.531000+08:00","text":"收容的期間。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-01T11:46:15.971000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:46:30.152000+08:00","text":"因為根據刑法的規定，必須要執行之後才有折抵的問題，現在是待執行的死刑犯，這個收容依法是不能折抵，如果說修法的這部分，我們也是反對折抵的。","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:46:32.257000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:46:33.998000+08:00","text":"好，就是這部分你們反對折抵嘛！","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:46:34.478000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:46:46.762000+08:00","text":"我想問這個只是要確定下來，因為以前沒有這個問題，現在既然發生了，因為如果可以折抵的話，會造成很多人將來萬一判無期徒刑，他馬上就可以聲請假釋，對不對？","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:46:46.762000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:47:21.807000+08:00","text":"因為最終審頂多押6次、12個月，如果12個月後他被判無期徒刑，再回過頭去算那個收容期間，有的已經二十幾年還沒有執行嘛，收容期間加進來，適用舊法15年得假釋聲請，搞不好他在判決無期徒刑的時候就可以聲請假釋了，所以我滿認同部長剛剛所說的，收容期間不會列入刑期計算，我是要確認這個點，部長，這有沒有什麼問題？","quality":0.924},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-01T11:47:21.807000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:47:22.848000+08:00","text":"依據現行的刑法就是不能折抵。","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:47:24.830000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:47:44.933000+08:00","text":"我現在是深刻的期望，這個議題我本來只想問5分鐘，結果花太多時間了，我希望一件事情，因為新北割喉案的楊爸爸昨天接受訪問的時候甚至哭出來了，我們都有小孩，都知道白髮人送黑髮人的那種心痛，絕對是傷痛欲絕，我們都能夠理解嘛。","quality":0.898},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:47:45.413000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:48:24.053000+08:00","text":"我希望一件事情，對這些被害者家屬，第一次對他們造成傷害的是這些兇手，但是我們的行政機關、政治人物、司法系統不要對他們第二次傷害，你看他昨天哭得那樣子，我看了都不忍心，因為我從新北市府就陪著他到現在，我真的不忍心這個事情，所以我們一定要讓這個國家對好人更好、對壞人更壞，我們還是要讓這一些犯罪行為人付出該有的代價。","quality":0.378},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:48:24.053000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:48:30.781000+08:00","text":"部長，你跟我以前都是檢察官，我們對於正義真的是有無可救藥的熱情，我們一定要這樣堅持下去，好不好？","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-01T11:48:30.781000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T11:48:32.659000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T11:48:32.659000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:48:45.007000+08:00","text":"我能體會委員的心情，這個部分我們是站在同一個線上，對這種為非作歹的這些歹徒，我覺得公權力一定要伸張起來。","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:48:45.007000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:48:52.012000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝院長，就是公權力我們一定要讓它伸張，我們要讓人民遵守、尊重公權力，這樣社會才會平安。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:48:53.253000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:49:03.194000+08:00","text":"前幾天我有講，我說當人民千方百計在追求出入平安的時候，我們的政府不能千方百計的為這些犯罪行為人求情，我們每年有非常多件殺人既遂的案子，但是很多年才會有1件死刑案子，所以這些人都是法官認證要永久與社會隔絕的，今天我們又千方百計的為他們求情，其實對於被害者家屬來說情何以堪？","quality":0.349},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:49:04.145000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:50:02.351000+08:00","text":"我再請教一下院長跟法務部長，我們其實在之前就有提出要求，因為我們一直希望揭弊者保護法能夠通過，讓它能夠順利立法，我們要求你們能夠在2個月內把草案送過來，因為草案已經出來了嘛，但是一直沒有送來，可不可以承諾趕快把它送來，因為我們經過了上次國會改革法案，動不動你就給我送釋憲，然後今天我們跟民眾黨有一些草案希望出來，結果到時候又要被你們送釋憲嗎？","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:50:02.591000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:50:13.977000+08:00","text":"是不是行政院這邊可以趕快把揭弊者保護法草案送到立法院來，讓我們能夠審議，這樣我們才能夠就各個版本趕快審出一個對國家有幫助的法案。","quality":0.82},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:50:14.958000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:50:32.116000+08:00","text":"因為國家有很多弊案，包括之前超思進口雞蛋的問題、武器採購的問題、疫苗採購的問題，我們真的深刻希望有揭弊者能夠勇於出來揭弊，我們真的需要他們，所以需要這個法案能夠過關，請問可不可以請你們趕快把草案送到立法院來？","quality":0.854},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T11:50:33.936000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:50:49.224000+08:00","text":"報告委員，法務部也正在審查過程當中，我們認為對於公私部門要做怎麼樣原則性的處置，還在深入的討論，但是進度是有的，我希望這個能夠再凝聚更高一點的共識，然後再放在修法過程當中……","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:50:49.284000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:50:52.085000+08:00","text":"但是時間真的太久了，時間真的太久了！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T11:50:52.085000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T11:50:54.002000+08:00","text":"部長說明一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:50:54.002000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T11:50:55.919000+08:00","text":"如果說你們對私部門還有所擔心的話，這個我能夠理解，我自己擔任檢察官的時候受理過非常多濫訴、濫告，甚至是惡意檢舉的案件，造成企業活不下去，這個我可以理解，但至少公部門、國營企業，如果沒有問題，是不是至少把你們的版本趕快送過來吧？","quality":0.118},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-01T11:50:55.919000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:51:26.627000+08:00","text":"這部分法務部已經研擬了第15版，因為我們要廣納各界的意見，委員也很清楚，原本是公私合併，後來是公私分立的立法政策。","quality":0.86},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-01T11:51:27.667000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:51:30.830000+08:00","text":"公部門這邊我們再去廣納各界意見，我們也已經提出第15個版本來做個審議……","quality":0.613},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:51:30.870000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:51:33.532000+08:00","text":"好，那我只能拜託你們速度能夠加快，好不好？是。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:51:33.592000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:51:38.515000+08:00","text":"如果真的不行，我們就只好用我們的版本開始審理，我們就只能這樣做。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:51:39.136000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:51:46.080000+08:00","text":"因為從上會期我們就一直拜託你們了，而且這個法案已經在你們那邊躺了很久，所以真的要麻煩你們速度能夠快。","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:51:47.001000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:52:07.431000+08:00","text":"再來，院長，在這段時間我們看到很多問題，包括我個人認為能源政策是整個錯誤的政策，你不要跟我講什麼AI內閣，AI最需要的就是電力嘛，你現在講將來電力的狀況能不能補上這個缺口，我覺得明眼人都知道未來會怎麼樣，只是大家現在都不談而已。","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:52:07.771000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:52:20.431000+08:00","text":"好，我們先不著重這個問題，我想跟院長請教一下菸捐的部分，我認為這個東西我們是不是應該思考一下？","quality":0.884},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:52:21.011000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:52:26.256000+08:00","text":"最近是不是很長一段時間該漲的不漲、不該漲的卻一直漲價？","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:52:26.577000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:52:43.249000+08:00","text":"譬如說電價，我認為一個正確的能源政策就不會讓電價今天漲成這樣，我現在為什麼不想再問電的問題，因為我覺得問來問去的答案都是騙人的，就像最早期民進黨跟我們說台電在偷電，結果呢？","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:52:43.589000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:52:44.230000+08:00","text":"台電有沒有偷電？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:52:44.230000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:52:44.470000+08:00","text":"沒有啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:52:44.970000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:52:48.847000+08:00","text":"民進黨政府說綠能之後臺灣不會缺電，結果呢？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:52:49.127000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:52:50.107000+08:00","text":"我認為不缺電是騙人的！","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:52:50.947000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:52:53.448000+08:00","text":"又告訴我們不會大規模的漲電價，這也都是騙人的！","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:52:54.008000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:53:01.630000+08:00","text":"到最後我已經被騙了3次，我真的沒有辦法再相信你們對於能源方面給我們的保證。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:53:01.750000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:53:11.753000+08:00","text":"我想請教一下有關菸捐的部分，其實我們的菸捐已經非常久沒有討論這個議題了，不知道院長知不知道這個部分？","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T11:53:11.753000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T11:53:12.753000+08:00","text":"是的，沒有討論這個議題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:53:12.753000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T11:53:13.753000+08:00","text":"最後一次調整是什麼時候？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:53:13.753000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T11:53:14.753000+08:00","text":"OK，我印象中是98年，98年是最後一次去思考這個部分，這個部分將來是不是應該要去考慮一下？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:53:14.753000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T11:53:15.753000+08:00","text":"是不是應該要有所改變？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-10-01T11:53:13.497000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:53:14.158000+08:00","text":"報告委員，菸捐在今年底會做檢討。蛤？","quality":0.467},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-10-01T11:53:37.194000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:53:38.654000+08:00","text":"制度會做檢討。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:53:38.654000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:53:41.335000+08:00","text":"因為今年應該會再開會，因為每二年要開一次會……","quality":0.65},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-10-01T11:53:41.675000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:53:43.056000+08:00","text":"對，二年要開一次會。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:53:43.056000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:53:45.356000+08:00","text":"我們是不是要再思考這個部分？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:53:46.156000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:53:56.639000+08:00","text":"因為我從國健署的資料看到，吸菸人口是上升的喔，這是國健署自己公布的資料，如果這樣的話，你去漲電價，不該漲的漲，結果菸捐從98年到現在沒有調漲過，我手上的資料只有91年5塊、95年10塊，然後最近一次98年調整到20塊，之後就沒有再思考過了，這部分再麻煩你們，因為我現在在外面看到很多地方抽菸的人越來越多。","quality":0.444},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:53:56.639000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T11:54:14.844500+08:00","text":"我沒有歧視他們，但是我希望他們健康，所以我們是不是增加一點他們的負擔，讓他們少抽一點，對自己比較好，他們的家人也會很高興部長、院長你們能做出這樣的決策，好嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:54:14.844500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T11:54:33.050000+08:00","text":"這部分再麻煩你們一下。是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:54:33.050000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:54:40.656000+08:00","text":"另外，我們請經濟部長上台，我有一個問題想要請教一下。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:54:41.657000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:55:07.553000+08:00","text":"我們在2022年有提出一個「臺灣2050淨零排放路徑及策略總說明」，其中有提到四個領域，就是能源轉型、產業轉型、生活轉型跟社會轉型，我們總共編列的預算有1,161億，我想請問一下，那你知不知道其中所謂的四大領域十二項關鍵戰略是什麼？","quality":0.809},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:55:07.553000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:55:09.974000+08:00","text":"使用經費最高的前三名是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:55:09.974000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:55:14.276000+08:00","text":"請問部長知道嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2024-10-01T11:55:14.276000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:55:16.617000+08:00","text":"這個部分我不是那麼清楚。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:55:17.418000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:55:30.865000+08:00","text":"好吧，那沒關係，可是這個花了我們一千多億元，所以部長，要麻煩你不能不清楚，其實我們使用經費最高的是電力系統儲能；第二是風電光電；第三是節能。","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:55:31.765000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:55:42.694000+08:00","text":"我必須講一下，這個還是源自於我個人認為錯誤的能源政策，至少我自己個人這麼認為，我知道各位一定有很多理由，但是我個人認為我國的能源政策是完全錯誤。","quality":0.985},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:55:42.694000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:56:02.268000+08:00","text":"而且它帶動CPI的漲幅，其實人民是痛苦的，它讓我們人民的實質薪資是倒退的，其實它一連串發生了很多問題，甚至讓將來我們的產業要再往前進，我們的外銷要再擴展，要降低成本，這在將來都變成是不可能的事情。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:56:02.808000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:56:11.135000+08:00","text":"所以，這樣子的能源政策，它其實是讓某些特定人賺了大錢，但是它苦了全體的人民。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:56:11.616000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:56:30.417000+08:00","text":"我想在立場上面，也許我們各有立場，但是我想大家心裡的想法可能也不會差太多，所以，我剛剛就跟部長說，你還是要去弄清楚，因為花了一千多億，不能說都沒有什麼效果出來。","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T11:56:30.417000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:56:38.179000+08:00","text":"委員，你剛剛那樣標示成本不是非常的正確，核電的部分要很多隱性的成本跟未來的成本，那應該要放進去……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:56:39.139000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:56:41.700000+08:00","text":"好，那風電、太陽能光電也有非常多隱性的成本……","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T11:56:41.700000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T11:56:42.740000+08:00","text":"那是有大量的先前投資。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:56:42.740000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:56:51.123000+08:00","text":"將來這些東西過了年限之後的銷毀，以及它對於自然環境的傷害，院長，這個東西也是隱形的成本。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T11:56:51.123000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T11:56:52.123000+08:00","text":"對，這個也要面對，沒有錯。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:56:51.823000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:57:02.930000+08:00","text":"但是，兩個權衡之下誰好誰壞，你要去思考，為什麼全世界的主流是那樣，我們反主流而行，然後你現在跟我說隱形成本，全世界……","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T11:57:03.170000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:57:08.833000+08:00","text":"因為世界大廠來臺灣都要求我們要提供綠電，所以我們必須要提供綠電給他們，才能跟世界接軌……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:57:08.833000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T11:57:10.974000+08:00","text":"好，沒關係。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:57:10.974000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:57:14.815000+08:00","text":"我們要綠電就是為了要永續，但是你要去思考一下，這樣真的是永續了嗎？","quality":0.567},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:57:14.815000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:57:15.636000+08:00","text":"還是一樣？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:57:15.636000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:57:24.478000+08:00","text":"還有一個SDGs，它對於產品生產能源的要求，它的能源要乾淨能源的要求，這個未來做不做得到？","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:57:25.279000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:57:38.303000+08:00","text":"還有將來碳稅的問題，將來某些國家或歐盟地區等等不願意採購骯髒能源所生產的產品，這個都是我們要考量的，我們不能把這個責任丟給十年後、二十年後的人民自己去承受，這是我個人粗淺的認為。","quality":0.807},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T11:57:38.303000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T11:57:46.308500+08:00","text":"我們當然追求永續，如果有新的核能技術不會產生現在的核安跟核廢的問題，我們也願意開放來討論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:57:46.308500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T11:57:54.314000+08:00","text":"沒關係，院長，我本人的淺見供參，那我們來看看，之後我們說的這個東西會不會變成一個事實。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:57:54.314000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:58:18.731000+08:00","text":"好，我們花了那麼多錢希望降低碳排，但是其實這段時間碳排還是一樣非常的嚴重，我想這個再回過頭去還是一樣是能源的問題，因為一個錯誤的能源政策讓我們的人均碳排指數其實非常的高，甚至超越了日本、韓國等國，所以我們這樣對嗎？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:58:18.731000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:58:24.684000+08:00","text":"我想可能再麻煩行政院這邊能夠多去思考一下這個部分。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:58:26.726000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:58:31.590000+08:00","text":"後面我想請教一下交通部長一個問題。","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-01T11:58:33.773000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:58:35.154000+08:00","text":"交通部長請備詢。","quality":0.429},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-01T11:58:35.814000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:58:36.575000+08:00","text":"其他部長是不是請回？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:58:36.575000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T11:58:37.575000+08:00","text":"好，可以。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:58:36.655000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:58:52.336000+08:00","text":"部長，我想請問一下，你之前有說臺鐵誤點5分鐘是可以接受，那真的誤點是好嗎？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:58:52.476000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:58:54.978000+08:00","text":"你知不知道去年誤點的狀況是什麼？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-10-01T11:58:54.978000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:59:10.769000+08:00","text":"我沒有說5分鐘可以接受，我那天覺得誤點5分鐘，對我來說，當然沒有像高鐵那麼精準，所以還有改善的空間，但是臺鐵他們給我的數據，他們在計算所謂誤點率的部分，誤點5分鐘以內算在準點率裡面。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:59:12.244000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:59:28.649000+08:00","text":"但是我要跟你說，私人的企業可不這麼接受，甚至你不要講別人，我們立法院的會議表定9點開會，9點就要開會，也沒有所謂的誤點這個東西，所以這個東西你這樣講了以後，底下臺鐵人都鬆一口氣，超開心，5分鐘部長認證OK……","quality":0.822},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-10-01T11:59:29.710000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:59:42.924000+08:00","text":"這是他們原本就訂好的標準，這不是我講的，是他們原本就訂好的標準，但我還是有要求，像高鐵這麼精準才是大家想要的目標，所以我希望臺鐵的準點率要再加強。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:59:42.924000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:59:46.967000+08:00","text":"不是，那你總是要有一些想法跟措施出來嘛！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:59:47.227000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:59:51.269000+08:00","text":"所以我剛剛問你，你知不知道臺鐵去年誤點多少次，你知道嗎？","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-10-01T11:59:51.690000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:59:52.791000+08:00","text":"我不曉得次數，您的數字是143萬次。","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:59:52.991000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T11:59:55.392000+08:00","text":"是143萬次，然後發生率是5成，其實這個是還蠻驚人的，那我們可以這樣子嗎？","quality":0.724},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:59:55.392000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T11:59:59.909333+08:00","text":"部長，你不能說這個5分鐘……好啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T11:59:59.909333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T12:00:04.426667+08:00","text":"沒關係，不管你怎麼講，但是至少……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-10-01T12:00:04.426667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T12:00:08.944000+08:00","text":"我認為它應該要更準點啦！","quality":0.273},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-10-01T12:00:08.944000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T12:00:21.851000+08:00","text":"我認為它應該要更準點，我的想法會跟委員是一樣的，它應該要更準點，讓民眾不管是通勤也好，或者是長途旅遊也好，可以抓準自己的時間，不會影響到上下班。好吧！","quality":0.896},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T12:00:24.929000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T12:00:32.417000+08:00","text":"那我們就只能跟新任的部長講，你還是要解決這個臺鐵的問題，因為我自己辦公室的主任常常遲到……","quality":0.854},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-10-01T12:00:32.417000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T12:00:33.438000+08:00","text":"是，我是覺得它應該要更準點一點。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T12:00:33.438000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T12:00:41.927000+08:00","text":"我辦公室的主任非常的常遲到，因為他都要坐臺鐵來上班，然後每一次我跟他溝通的時候，我就講不下去了，因為臺鐵就是常常誤點嘛！","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-10-01T12:00:41.927000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T12:00:44.269000+08:00","text":"很抱歉，我代替臺鐵跟委員抱歉。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T12:00:44.269000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T12:00:47.331000+08:00","text":"然後他如果要開車過來反而會花更多的時間，所以他都是搭乘大眾交通工具。","quality":0.688},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T12:00:48.071000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T12:00:49.312000+08:00","text":"我不是在那邊臭他啦！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T12:00:49.692000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T12:00:53.554000+08:00","text":"我只是說臺鐵誤點是一個很大的問題，要麻煩部長。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-10-01T12:00:53.554000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T12:00:54.554000+08:00","text":"這個要解決。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T12:00:53.554000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T12:01:00.158000+08:00","text":"尤其很多私部門開會是不允許遲到的，這樣會讓一些民眾其實很困擾。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T12:01:01.179000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T12:01:10.716000+08:00","text":"我要跟部長就教第二個問題，就是捷運或高鐵的站臺都有裝設那個門……","quality":0.793},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-10-01T12:01:10.716000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T12:01:12.077000+08:00","text":"是，月臺門。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T12:01:12.077000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T12:01:13.077000+08:00","text":"對，月臺門。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T12:01:12.077000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T12:01:18.784000+08:00","text":"在我自己以前的工作經驗中，我曾經也驗過幾次鐵路的事故，當然我驗的都是自殺，是自己跳下去自殺，但是過往也有不慎掉落的例子，不管是自殺或不慎掉落，是不是有可能裝設月臺門？","quality":0.303},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T12:01:18.784000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T12:01:26.629500+08:00","text":"是不是在臺鐵比較重要車站的月臺都能這麼做？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T12:01:26.629500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T12:01:34.475000+08:00","text":"目前有沒有這個規劃？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-10-01T12:01:34.475000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T12:01:42.320500+08:00","text":"報告委員，我們目前有規劃在高雄站的部分，我們正在測試那個月臺門，大概明年就會做好測試然後把一個月臺的月臺門做好，但是臺鐵的部分會相對比較複雜一點，因為它的車型都不一樣，每個門開的地方不太一樣，所以那個月臺門也會跟大家的想像不一樣，不過對這一點我們已經在努力了，就是我們明年第一個測試的閘門會在高雄完成，當它完成測試之後，認為可以做，我們就會挑人比較多的站，也就是風險相對高的站，我們會來設置月臺門的部分。","quality":0.096},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T12:01:42.320500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T12:01:50.166000+08:00","text":"對，至少就是比較大的站、人多的站、有可能發生推擠的站，你是不是要優先處理？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-10-01T12:01:50.166000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T12:01:58.011500+08:00","text":"對，沒錯。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T12:01:58.011500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T12:02:05.857000+08:00","text":"當然有一些小的站你們沒有優先處理，我們都可以理解，但是這個部分至少要做吧！對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T12:02:05.857000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T12:02:08.038000+08:00","text":"目前火車是不是沒有辦法停到定點的那個位置？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T12:02:08.459000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T12:02:08.819000+08:00","text":"有沒有這個問題？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-10-01T12:02:32.072000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T12:02:48.519000+08:00","text":"因為他們每一種列車的設計不太一樣，高低也會有落差，然後門的前後也會有落差，但是我看他們停車的部分都還是停在設定的點上面，停在設定點上是沒有問題的，但是門的位置可能都不太一樣。","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T12:02:49.519000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T12:02:51.700000+08:00","text":"好，這樣我知道了，所以問題是在於門的位置。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T12:02:53.661000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T12:03:19.812000+08:00","text":"另外還有一件事情就是臺東的部分，其實我們臺東的黃建賓立委一直在協調讓臺東的旅遊補助能夠跟花蓮看齊，但是他努力了很久也沒有用，可是上次民進黨的莊瑞雄委員一到臺東去認養服務處之後，你們馬上就同意，而且還對外宣傳說他搞定了，那我想請問一下這是怎麼回事？不是……","quality":0.898},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T12:03:19.812000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T12:03:21.593000+08:00","text":"沒關係，你說，你就直接告訴我。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-10-01T12:03:21.593000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T12:03:33.504000+08:00","text":"我們一直在朝這個方向努力，包含我本人到花蓮跟花蓮的旅宿業者、觀光業者座談的時候，也有臺東的代表過來，他也有跟我表示這樣的意見……","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T12:03:33.504000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T12:03:34.504000+08:00","text":"不好意思，要麻煩院長說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T12:03:33.504000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T12:03:36.487000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，這個跟誰去認養臺東絕對沒有關係，我上次到花蓮之後，我們就決定花蓮跟臺東要同時啟用這個補助，但是臺東好像是希望他們晚一個月開始。是。","quality":0.477},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T12:03:36.487000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T12:03:45.134000+08:00","text":"所以臺東只是晚一個月開始，內容相同，我們現在也希望不要限定一人一次或是一次一個晚上，你可以從花蓮玩到臺東，再從臺東回來花蓮，我們都願意這樣來補助。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T12:03:45.134000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T12:04:15.692000+08:00","text":"我要跟院長報告，因為我知道部長以前是政治系出身的，我是說雖然是政治系出身，但是在施政上面我覺得還是不要有那種政治的分別，當然我們看到的是結論嘛！","quality":0.687},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-10-01T12:04:15.692000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T12:04:16.692000+08:00","text":"不會、不會，對民眾的需求，我們幫得上忙的就儘量來做。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T12:04:16.613000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T12:04:31.401000+08:00","text":"我們看到的結論就是說，國民黨的立委黃建賓一直在努力奔走，可是他達不到什麼效果，但是莊瑞雄委員一到臺東就可以很順利的做到很多事情，那施政上面總是不要有敵我之分。不會。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T12:04:32.541000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T12:04:37.762000+08:00","text":"如果是誤解，也可以用其他的方式來讓大家知道這是一個誤解，好不好？","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-10-01T12:04:37.762000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T12:04:39.323000+08:00","text":"好，沒問題。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T12:04:39.323000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T12:04:55.646000+08:00","text":"因為時間不夠了，最後我想跟院長報告的就是老人的問題，現在65歲以上的低收入族群一直在增加，那依照現在不動產的價格，大家也都買不起，所以院長，我們要記得禮運大同篇說的要老有所終，我們是不是要照顧他們？","quality":0.596},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T12:04:55.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T12:04:56.646000+08:00","text":"老人租屋以及補助，請院長一定要在這一塊來努力，因為我們是超高齡社會了，麻煩你了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T12:04:56.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T12:04:57.646000+08:00","text":"好，我們再從政策面來做思考、跟委員請教，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-01T12:04:57.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T12:04:58.646000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-01T12:04:57.026000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T12:04:57.806000+08:00","text":"謝謝吳委員、謝謝卓院長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-01T12:04:58.306000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T12:05:07.734571+08:00","text":"下一位楊曜委員的質詢以書面提出，請行政院以書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。","quality":0.273},{"speaker":"委員楊曜書面質詢","start":"2024-10-01T12:05:08.034571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T12:05:11.748857+08:00","text":"一、嚴格落實醫學中心評鑑制度","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員楊曜書面質詢","start":"2024-10-01T12:05:12.048857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T12:06:10.906000+08:00","text":"全民健康保險結餘從2017年起再度出現赤字，直到2022年才終結連續5年赤字，由負轉正，主因為公務預算挹注健保及補充保費大增有關，但景氣帶來紅利及稅收超徵，並非每年都有，對於健保永續而言，並非最佳解方，因此，如何逐步的健全健保體制，並保障民眾醫療權益，本席相信這是政府應該努力的方向，根據醫學中心評鑑規則，原本應該是每兩百萬人一家醫學中心，以台灣目前的人口數來說，大約就是12家醫學中心，但現在卻有22家，已經變成每百萬人口就有一家醫學中心，請問衛福部真的有在落實評鑑規則嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員楊曜書面質詢","start":"2024-10-01T12:06:11.206000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T12:06:45.491714+08:00","text":"無法嚴格落實評鑑的狀況下，只會讓評鑑的可信度大打折扣，以及越來越多升格的醫學中心來分食健保大餅，會造成區域及地區醫院的經營不易，無法讓分級醫療順利實施，讓民眾喪失對於台灣醫療品質的信心，因此，本席建議，除了要落實醫學中心評鑑外，也要對於醫學中心的總額進行控管。","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員楊曜書面質詢","start":"2024-10-01T12:06:45.791714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T12:06:52.934571+08:00","text":"二、針媒體報導澎湖駐軍擬減少一事，本席要求不宜減少駐軍。","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員楊曜書面質詢","start":"2024-10-01T12:06:53.234571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T12:08:23.234571+08:00","text":"根據行政院提出114年度預算書報告，離島軍人預算員額將大減千人，約占目前駐軍的15%，有學者表示，114年國軍離島志願、義務役「預算員額」較今年互有消長，其中，離島義務役員額比今年多4倍，但離島守軍明年度「預算員額」卻將大減15%，不排除軍方有裁減澎湖駐軍規模的計畫，澎湖為台海防衛作戰第一線，中共戰機、戰艦時常侵擾台海中線，都是澎湖各項軍種兵力前往對峙，保衛台海安全，因此本席要求不宜減少駐軍外，由於澎湖位處重要戰略地位，從天駒部隊調整為常態部署，堅守空防第一線，就可得知區域情勢已有變化，因此澎湖的各軍種駐軍勤務日益繁重、操演增加，因此，本席先前也曾召開會議，要求國防部研議，加發澎湖駐軍獎金，也請國防部審慎評估可行性，以提升澎湖駐軍士氣，此外，澎湖國軍部隊的編現比、後勤補給，亦是國防戰力重要的一環，也請國防部務必留意。","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員楊曜書面質詢","start":"2024-10-01T12:08:23.534571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T12:08:54.677429+08:00","text":"而離島部隊目前募兵困難的主因為志願役待遇不佳，加上義務役的薪水與志願役二兵的薪水相差不大，更難以吸引年輕人加入國軍行列，政策走向應該為增加志願役加給，提升台灣青年從軍意願，充實國軍戰力，而非直接減少第一作戰區的駐軍人數，影響台海安全。","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員楊曜書面質詢","start":"2024-10-01T12:08:54.977429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T12:09:02.120286+08:00","text":"三、勞保基金改革刻不容緩，僅憑單一改革方式並非長久之計。","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員楊曜書面質詢","start":"2024-10-01T12:09:02.420286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T12:09:16.134571+08:00","text":"勞保基金財務問題是近年來國人最關注的議題之一，對此執政團隊以撥補作為主要手段，目前已累積撥補近三千億。","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員楊曜書面質詢","start":"2024-10-01T12:09:16.434571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T12:09:25.577429+08:00","text":"想請教勞動部，除了撥補之外，是否有計畫以其他改革方式改善勞保財務議題？","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員楊曜書面質詢","start":"2024-10-01T12:09:25.877429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T12:09:31.591714+08:00","text":"如多繳、少領、延後領或是設法提高基金收益率等？","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員楊曜書面質詢","start":"2024-10-01T12:09:31.891714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T12:09:46.463143+08:00","text":"依照現況，退休國人平均能領到的勞保老年年金已低於台北市的最低生活費，近年來全球通膨持續，因此不可能再減少給付。","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員楊曜書面質詢","start":"2024-10-01T12:09:46.763143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T12:10:15.048857+08:00","text":"台灣將進入超高齡社會，針對未來所謂的退休潮，勞保的資金缺口勢必擴大，撥補的金額也將越來越高，因此勞動部除了必須持續撥補以外，本席也要求勞動部也應提出其他政策工具向社會大眾說明並取得共識，以挽救岌岌可危的勞保基金。","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員楊曜書面質詢","start":"2024-10-01T12:10:15.348857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T12:10:23.920286+08:00","text":"四、國內旅遊持續慘澹，觀光署應儘早提出明年度澎湖地區國旅振興方案。","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員楊曜書面質詢","start":"2024-10-01T12:10:24.220286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T12:11:26.791714+08:00","text":"先前本席已有要求，因出國旅遊已恢復常態化，可以預期的是國旅市場衰退，特別是澎湖觀光產業受創將更嚴重，當時，我也要求交通部要規劃相關方案，以因應國旅衰退的問題，今年本席有接到澎湖當地觀光業業者反映，業績至少衰退三成，顯示先前所擔憂的問題一一浮現，而剛剛落幕的「2024澎湖追風音樂燈光節」，亦有宣傳不足，大型展演無法吸引旅客至澎湖觀光等問題，為此，本席要求，觀光署應儘早提出明年度澎湖地區國旅振興方案，也應針對澎湖地區辦理秋冬大型展演活動如何持續精進提出改善措施，以利促進澎湖觀光業發展。","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員楊曜書面質詢","start":"2024-10-01T12:11:27.091714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T12:11:35.091714+08:00","text":"五、請海洋委員會研議於澎湖地區及鄰近海域試辦珊瑚礁復育計畫。","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員楊曜書面質詢","start":"2024-10-01T12:11:35.391714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T12:12:38.248857+08:00","text":"八年來，透過「向海致敬」計畫以及本席向相關部會爭取預算，投注於澎湖地區及鄰近海域清除海底覆網，環境部自2021年起補助澎湖縣政府辦理海底覆網清理工作，自2021年至2024年8月底，累計清理重量約7萬6,800公斤，當中還不包含海洋委員會及農業部漁業署所清理成果，初步已略見成效，唯有逐步清除海底覆網，投入海洋復育的相關預算才能發揮成效，因此，本席要求，在海底覆網已清理已達一定成效之海域，海委會應著手研議提出棲地復育計畫，針對復育一事提出可行方案或模式，如復育珊瑚礁等方式，如此一來，才能加速讓澎湖海洋生態的復育。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-01T12:12:38.548857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T12:12:49.120286+08:00","text":"報告院會，上午質詢到此為止，本次會議未有委員提出臨時提案，就不進行臨時提案之處理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-01T12:12:49.420286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T12:12:53.991714+08:00","text":"下午2點30分繼續開會，進行質詢，現在休息。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-01T12:12:54.291714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T12:12:55.434571+08:00","text":"休息（12時5分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-01T12:12:55.734571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T12:12:57.448857+08:00","text":"繼續開會（14時30分）","quality":0}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-01T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:34:25 - 12:05:23","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第2次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","gazette":{"lineno":1018,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（11時34分）麻煩請院長還有法務部長、經濟部長以及交通部長。"],["主席：請卓院長還有法務部長、交通部長及經濟部長。"],["卓院長榮泰：吳委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：院長、部長、各位早安。院長，3個多月前我質詢的時候曾經有跟你提過，我們希望你不是只擔任民進黨的大師兄，其實你要當我們中華民國的大師兄，要照顧我們全臺灣人，但是這段時間下來，從國會改革激烈的鬥爭；還有新青安、物價通膨、兩岸緊張；還有總統放棄和平的這種想法，都讓我覺得這與當初希望院長能夠擔任全民大師兄的想法，好像都是背道而馳的。","關於上一次有很多部長請假的這件事情，也讓我想到當初我們國會改革的法案，其實條文裡面就有說怎麼樣可以請假，只要經過主席同意就可以，但是這個法案到最後被大家、被你們聯手把它擋在外面，否則以韓院長的個性，部長找個原因向他請假，我想韓院長應該都會同意，也不會造成後面有這麼多的問題；甚至大家還談論到，這是不是違反了憲法權力分立上面行政院應該對立法院負責的概念。","我看到第8屆第4會期其實也是有類似的狀況，但民進黨那時候是用毀憲亂政當作理由，直接要求行政院江宜樺前院長要先道歉，然後才能上臺進行施政報告。至少今天國民黨的作法，不是把整個議場鬧得亂哄哄，大家回過頭去想第8屆民進黨的那個作法，所以我是建議還是不要這樣子，不要把立法院不當一回事，至少你要向民意負責。","另外，我覺得這段時間你也要去思考一個點，總統依照憲法，負責的範圍應該是國防、外交，但是總統卻被另外一個部長來認證，他可以直接下指示，對於你底下的部長去下一道命令、去指示、去訓斥他，其實這個東西就坐實了、由部長來認證我們的總統其實是一個獨裁而且破壞憲政體制的總統，因為總統認為他不需要到立法院接受質詢，結果他卻可以去指揮行政院底下的部長，我覺得這個都不對，這整個都是在破壞我國的憲政體制，民進黨不能這樣啊！民進黨不能當憲法對自己有利的時候才挑來用，動不動罵別人毀憲亂政，但是真正想破壞憲法的卻是民進黨政府，它只挑對自己有利的東西來用，然後整天在那邊喊一些莫名其妙、毀憲亂政的話。","本席希望大家能夠好好的彼此磨合，包括行政院跟我們這些立法委員之間，我相信第一次我們是可以好好談；如果第二次行政院還是讓國家這樣子下去的話，我想民怨還是會出來。尤其最近又看到總統的信任度、滿意度跌下來，不滿意度又上升，其實在在都顯現這段時間也許施政上面是有問題的，那可不可以聽聽我們在講什麼？不要所有的事情都是你想幹什麼，你就自己恣意妄為。","從這段時間、從2022年的數據來看，其實貧富差距是加大的，政府最喜歡用所謂的吉尼係數，我們看到最高組別跟最低組別的家庭所得差距已經到了6.15倍，用吉尼係數來算已經到了0.342，若到達0.4的話，依據聯合國的標準，就會造成社會動盪，其實我們每年都在往那個方向走，這個請行政院千萬要注意，我們不要往0.4的這個方向走，就是聯合國認定會造成社會動盪的這個方向走。還有，目前國人的待業痛苦指數是往上飆的，開心指數是往下降的，這都有數據可以證明。還有75%的社會新鮮人認為自己每個月都存不到錢。我再跟院長報告，其實月光族現在已經是幸福的，因為有非常大的比例其實是根本不夠支應相關的生活費。還有國家整體的發展，這段時間我們的CPI一直是在暴漲的；據瑞士洛桑管理學院最近的公布，我們的經濟排名已經從第6名掉到第26名，這個指數一直在往下降，可能行政院自己要稍微注意一下。還有這段時間的新青安政策，其實讓大家非常痛苦。尤其四年後的新青安會讓四年後的年輕人首購更痛苦，這是大家可以預測到的，所有行內的人都已經知道這個狀況。尤其現在的房價，平均人民不吃不喝，目前全國已經到10.35年，而臺北甚至到16.08年，所以政府到底在創造什麼？蔡政府上任的第一年告訴大家，他要處理的是居住正義，結果他的居住正義帶來的是建商的居住正義，讓人民越來越痛苦！","接下來我想請問院長跟法務部長，我想請教一下，大法官千方百計幫這37個死刑犯找免死的理由，不要再跟我說死刑合憲，並沒有實質廢死。大家都內行人，不用講外行話。我請教院長還有部長，判決如果被廢棄之後，死刑犯會不會被放掉？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，這是憲判的意旨，不過判決必須請總長先審核有非常上訴的事由之後，才會向最高法院提非常上訴。當然，最高法院就這個案件，如果像委員所講的撤銷的話，這是憲判的意旨，羈押……"],["吳委員宗憲：沒有關係，你不要跟我講憲判。你就說如果回復、重回終審法院判決時，死刑犯會不會被放掉？"],["鄭部長銘謙：在判決之前不會放掉。根據監獄行刑法第一百四十八條第一項規定，能繼續收容中。"],["吳委員宗憲：死刑判決已經被非常上訴撤掉了，還可以收容嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：那是判決之前，如果非常上訴最高法院……"],["吳委員宗憲：不是，我已經說……"],["鄭部長銘謙：判決要重新來，要羈押的，我們會建請羈押，羈押是重新計算的。"],["吳委員宗憲：法院不押呢？法院可以不押啊。如果法院不押，這37個人你們怎麼處理？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們建議法院要羈押。"],["吳委員宗憲：你只能建議，但法院可以不押！羈押的理由很簡單，依照刑事訴訟法，除了重罪之外，必須要有逃亡之虞或串證之虞……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是最嚴重的犯罪。跟委員報告，這是最嚴重的犯罪，訴訟法第七十六條這是五年以上的重罪，是重罪羈押。"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，重罪不能當作唯一羈押理由，這應該是common sense吧，部長？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想法院一定是根據訴訟法第七十六條的規定來羈押。"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，重罪不是羈押的唯一理由，你可以去隨便問一個檢察官，你不能犯這種最低階的錯誤。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這不是低階錯誤，這是就法論法。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，沒關係，我不跟你爭辯這個，反正我告訴你的就是：重罪不是唯一羈押的理由。所以這些人有可能會被法院放掉，你們有沒有因應之道？如果法院不押，你們有沒有因應之道？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想這是假設性的問題！"],["吳委員宗憲：這不是假設性的問題！就算這是假設性的問題，部裡面應該要有所因應吧？這問題已經吵十幾年了，部裡面難道沒有任何因應嗎？今天不是一定羈押，法官可以不押人，這點你我都知道。如果回到終審法院審判時，若法院認為沒有逃亡之虞，也沒有串證之虞，這時候如果法官放人呢？部裡面沒有任何作為嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，您也擔任過檢察官，你也知道跟法院之間的這種關係……"],["吳委員宗憲：不是……"],["卓院長榮泰：法院真的不押，檢察官也沒有辦法。但是我認為這幾個案件除了是嚴重之罪外，都經過確定的審判，所以很確定這個行為人必須負這個責任。我認為法院還是會做最清楚的，如果有需要的話，會做最清楚的決定。"],["吳委員宗憲：院長，我是說得很簡單，法院不押的話，法務部有什麼作為？"],["鄭部長銘謙：除非法院判決無罪要釋放之外，只要判決有罪的，我認為法院會押。"],["吳委員宗憲：你認為法官會押，我現在是問你法官如果不押。依照刑事訴訟法規定……"],["鄭部長銘謙：法官不押的話只有無罪的可能……"],["吳委員宗憲：羈押有一定的要件，依我來看，現行這些人不是每個人都百分之百符合，常常檢察官認為要押，法官就沒有押！如果今天法官沒有押的情況下，沒有羈押理由了，我只是要請教法務部有沒有因應的作為，結果你們跟我講那麼多，那就沒有意思了！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我相信……"],["吳委員宗憲：部長、院長，大家都是內行人，不用在那邊講外行話，法院如果不押的話，請問法務部有什麼作為？題目就這麼簡單。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我不認為這些已經經過三審定讞的案件，法院的判決結果會有不押的情形，我想就像委員跟我都是……"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，你以前當檢察官的時候聲請羈押有沒有法院……不過你那時候可能沒有這個問題，全國檢察官聲押時都認為法院會押，但是法官常常都把人放掉，所以部長，我們不能坐在那邊說法官一定押。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們對法院要有信心。"],["吳委員宗憲：因為你也沒有命令法官的權限嘛！好吧，你沒辦法回答這個問題，我知道你們根本就還沒有任何因應的作為，但是這個問題已經吵十幾年了，到今天跟我說沒有因應的作為，我也是嘆為觀止啦！我想這37個死刑犯所造成61條人命的家屬大概不能接受你們的這個意見啦！","第二個問題請教院長跟部長，他們判決死刑確定之後收容的這段時間，如果將來改判無期徒刑或者改判有期徒刑，可不可以折抵刑期？收容的期間。"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為根據刑法的規定，必須要執行之後才有折抵的問題，現在是待執行的死刑犯，這個收容依法是不能折抵，如果說修法的這部分，我們也是反對折抵的。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，就是這部分你們反對折抵嘛！我想問這個只是要確定下來，因為以前沒有這個問題，現在既然發生了，因為如果可以折抵的話，會造成很多人將來萬一判無期徒刑，他馬上就可以聲請假釋，對不對？因為最終審頂多押6次、12個月，如果12個月後他被判無期徒刑，再回過頭去算那個收容期間，有的已經二十幾年還沒有執行嘛，收容期間加進來，適用舊法15年得假釋聲請，搞不好他在判決無期徒刑的時候就可以聲請假釋了，所以我滿認同部長剛剛所說的，收容期間不會列入刑期計算，我是要確認這個點，部長，這有沒有什麼問題？"],["鄭部長銘謙：依據現行的刑法就是不能折抵。"],["吳委員宗憲：我現在是深刻的期望，這個議題我本來只想問5分鐘，結果花太多時間了，我希望一件事情，因為新北割喉案的楊爸爸昨天接受訪問的時候甚至哭出來了，我們都有小孩，都知道白髮人送黑髮人的那種心痛，絕對是傷痛欲絕，我們都能夠理解嘛。我希望一件事情，對這些被害者家屬，第一次對他們造成傷害的是這些兇手，但是我們的行政機關、政治人物、司法系統不要對他們第二次傷害，你看他昨天哭得那樣子，我看了都不忍心，因為我從新北市府就陪著他到現在，我真的不忍心這個事情，所以我們一定要讓這個國家對好人更好、對壞人更壞，我們還是要讓這一些犯罪行為人付出該有的代價。部長，你跟我以前都是檢察官，我們對於正義真的是有無可救藥的熱情，我們一定要這樣堅持下去，好不好？"],["鄭部長銘謙：好，謝謝委員。"],["卓院長榮泰：我能體會委員的心情，這個部分我們是站在同一個線上，對這種為非作歹的這些歹徒，我覺得公權力一定要伸張起來。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，謝謝院長，就是公權力我們一定要讓它伸張，我們要讓人民遵守、尊重公權力，這樣社會才會平安。","前幾天我有講，我說當人民千方百計在追求出入平安的時候，我們的政府不能千方百計的為這些犯罪行為人求情，我們每年有非常多件殺人既遂的案子，但是很多年才會有1件死刑案子，所以這些人都是法官認證要永久與社會隔絕的，今天我們又千方百計的為他們求情，其實對於被害者家屬來說情何以堪？","我再請教一下院長跟法務部長，我們其實在之前就有提出要求，因為我們一直希望揭弊者保護法能夠通過，讓它能夠順利立法，我們要求你們能夠在2個月內把草案送過來，因為草案已經出來了嘛，但是一直沒有送來，可不可以承諾趕快把它送來，因為我們經過了上次國會改革法案，動不動你就給我送釋憲，然後今天我們跟民眾黨有一些草案希望出來，結果到時候又要被你們送釋憲嗎？是不是行政院這邊可以趕快把揭弊者保護法草案送到立法院來，讓我們能夠審議，這樣我們才能夠就各個版本趕快審出一個對國家有幫助的法案。因為國家有很多弊案，包括之前超思進口雞蛋的問題、武器採購的問題、疫苗採購的問題，我們真的深刻希望有揭弊者能夠勇於出來揭弊，我們真的需要他們，所以需要這個法案能夠過關，請問可不可以請你們趕快把草案送到立法院來？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，法務部也正在審查過程當中，我們認為對於公私部門要做怎麼樣原則性的處置，還在深入的討論，但是進度是有的，我希望這個能夠再凝聚更高一點的共識，然後再放在修法過程當中……"],["吳委員宗憲：但是時間真的太久了，時間真的太久了！"],["卓院長榮泰：部長說明一下。"],["吳委員宗憲：如果說你們對私部門還有所擔心的話，這個我能夠理解，我自己擔任檢察官的時候受理過非常多濫訴、濫告，甚至是惡意檢舉的案件，造成企業活不下去，這個我可以理解，但至少公部門、國營企業，如果沒有問題，是不是至少把你們的版本趕快送過來吧？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分法務部已經研擬了第15版，因為我們要廣納各界的意見，委員也很清楚，原本是公私合併，後來是公私分立的立法政策。公部門這邊我們再去廣納各界意見，我們也已經提出第15個版本來做個審議……"],["吳委員宗憲：好，那我只能拜託你們速度能夠加快，好不好？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：如果真的不行，我們就只好用我們的版本開始審理，我們就只能這樣做。因為從上會期我們就一直拜託你們了，而且這個法案已經在你們那邊躺了很久，所以真的要麻煩你們速度能夠快。","再來，院長，在這段時間我們看到很多問題，包括我個人認為能源政策是整個錯誤的政策，你不要跟我講什麼AI內閣，AI最需要的就是電力嘛，你現在講將來電力的狀況能不能補上這個缺口，我覺得明眼人都知道未來會怎麼樣，只是大家現在都不談而已。好，我們先不著重這個問題，我想跟院長請教一下菸捐的部分，我認為這個東西我們是不是應該思考一下？最近是不是很長一段時間該漲的不漲、不該漲的卻一直漲價？譬如說電價，我認為一個正確的能源政策就不會讓電價今天漲成這樣，我現在為什麼不想再問電的問題，因為我覺得問來問去的答案都是騙人的，就像最早期民進黨跟我們說台電在偷電，結果呢？台電有沒有偷電？沒有啊！民進黨政府說綠能之後臺灣不會缺電，結果呢？我認為不缺電是騙人的！又告訴我們不會大規模的漲電價，這也都是騙人的！到最後我已經被騙了3次，我真的沒有辦法再相信你們對於能源方面給我們的保證。","我想請教一下有關菸捐的部分，其實我們的菸捐已經非常久沒有討論這個議題了，不知道院長知不知道這個部分？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的，沒有討論這個議題。"],["吳委員宗憲：最後一次調整是什麼時候？OK，我印象中是98年，98年是最後一次去思考這個部分，這個部分將來是不是應該要去考慮一下？是不是應該要有所改變？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，菸捐在今年底會做檢討。"],["吳委員宗憲：蛤？"],["邱部長泰源：制度會做檢討。"],["吳委員宗憲：因為今年應該會再開會，因為每二年要開一次會……"],["邱部長泰源：對，二年要開一次會。"],["吳委員宗憲：我們是不是要再思考這個部分？因為我從國健署的資料看到，吸菸人口是上升的喔，這是國健署自己公布的資料，如果這樣的話，你去漲電價，不該漲的漲，結果菸捐從98年到現在沒有調漲過，我手上的資料只有91年5塊、95年10塊，然後最近一次98年調整到20塊，之後就沒有再思考過了，這部分再麻煩你們，因為我現在在外面看到很多地方抽菸的人越來越多。我沒有歧視他們，但是我希望他們健康，所以我們是不是增加一點他們的負擔，讓他們少抽一點，對自己比較好，他們的家人也會很高興部長、院長你們能做出這樣的決策，好嗎？這部分再麻煩你們一下。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：另外，我們請經濟部長上台，我有一個問題想要請教一下。我們在2022年有提出一個「臺灣2050淨零排放路徑及策略總說明」，其中有提到四個領域，就是能源轉型、產業轉型、生活轉型跟社會轉型，我們總共編列的預算有1,161億，我想請問一下，那你知不知道其中所謂的四大領域十二項關鍵戰略是什麼？使用經費最高的前三名是什麼？請問部長知道嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：這個部分我不是那麼清楚。"],["吳委員宗憲：好吧，那沒關係，可是這個花了我們一千多億元，所以部長，要麻煩你不能不清楚，其實我們使用經費最高的是電力系統儲能；第二是風電光電；第三是節能。我必須講一下，這個還是源自於我個人認為錯誤的能源政策，至少我自己個人這麼認為，我知道各位一定有很多理由，但是我個人認為我國的能源政策是完全錯誤。而且它帶動CPI的漲幅，其實人民是痛苦的，它讓我們人民的實質薪資是倒退的，其實它一連串發生了很多問題，甚至讓將來我們的產業要再往前進，我們的外銷要再擴展，要降低成本，這在將來都變成是不可能的事情。所以，這樣子的能源政策，它其實是讓某些特定人賺了大錢，但是它苦了全體的人民。我想在立場上面，也許我們各有立場，但是我想大家心裡的想法可能也不會差太多，所以，我剛剛就跟部長說，你還是要去弄清楚，因為花了一千多億，不能說都沒有什麼效果出來。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，你剛剛那樣標示成本不是非常的正確，核電的部分要很多隱性的成本跟未來的成本，那應該要放進去……"],["吳委員宗憲：好，那風電、太陽能光電也有非常多隱性的成本……"],["卓院長榮泰：那是有大量的先前投資。"],["吳委員宗憲：將來這些東西過了年限之後的銷毀，以及它對於自然環境的傷害，院長，這個東西也是隱形的成本。"],["卓院長榮泰：對，這個也要面對，沒有錯。"],["吳委員宗憲：但是，兩個權衡之下誰好誰壞，你要去思考，為什麼全世界的主流是那樣，我們反主流而行，然後你現在跟我說隱形成本，全世界……"],["卓院長榮泰：因為世界大廠來臺灣都要求我們要提供綠電，所以我們必須要提供綠電給他們，才能跟世界接軌……"],["吳委員宗憲：好，沒關係。我們要綠電就是為了要永續，但是你要去思考一下，這樣真的是永續了嗎？還是一樣？還有一個SDGs，它對於產品生產能源的要求，它的能源要乾淨能源的要求，這個未來做不做得到？還有將來碳稅的問題，將來某些國家或歐盟地區等等不願意採購骯髒能源所生產的產品，這個都是我們要考量的，我們不能把這個責任丟給十年後、二十年後的人民自己去承受，這是我個人粗淺的認為。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們當然追求永續，如果有新的核能技術不會產生現在的核安跟核廢的問題，我們也願意開放來討論。"],["吳委員宗憲：沒關係，院長，我本人的淺見供參，那我們來看看，之後我們說的這個東西會不會變成一個事實。","好，我們花了那麼多錢希望降低碳排，但是其實這段時間碳排還是一樣非常的嚴重，我想這個再回過頭去還是一樣是能源的問題，因為一個錯誤的能源政策讓我們的人均碳排指數其實非常的高，甚至超越了日本、韓國等國，所以我們這樣對嗎？我想可能再麻煩行政院這邊能夠多去思考一下這個部分。後面我想請教一下交通部長一個問題。"],["主席：交通部長請備詢。其他部長是不是請回？"],["吳委員宗憲：好，可以。部長，我想請問一下，你之前有說臺鐵誤點5分鐘是可以接受，那真的誤點是好嗎？你知不知道去年誤點的狀況是什麼？"],["陳部長世凱：我沒有說5分鐘可以接受，我那天覺得誤點5分鐘，對我來說，當然沒有像高鐵那麼精準，所以還有改善的空間，但是臺鐵他們給我的數據，他們在計算所謂誤點率的部分，誤點5分鐘以內算在準點率裡面。"],["吳委員宗憲：但是我要跟你說，私人的企業可不這麼接受，甚至你不要講別人，我們立法院的會議表定9點開會，9點就要開會，也沒有所謂的誤點這個東西，所以這個東西你這樣講了以後，底下臺鐵人都鬆一口氣，超開心，5分鐘部長認證OK……"],["陳部長世凱：這是他們原本就訂好的標準，這不是我講的，是他們原本就訂好的標準，但我還是有要求，像高鐵這麼精準才是大家想要的目標，所以我希望臺鐵的準點率要再加強。"],["吳委員宗憲：不是，那你總是要有一些想法跟措施出來嘛！所以我剛剛問你，你知不知道臺鐵去年誤點多少次，你知道嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：我不曉得次數，您的數字是143萬次。"],["吳委員宗憲：是143萬次，然後發生率是5成，其實這個是還蠻驚人的，那我們可以這樣子嗎？部長，你不能說這個5分鐘……好啦！沒關係，不管你怎麼講，但是至少……"],["陳部長世凱：我認為它應該要更準點啦！我認為它應該要更準點，我的想法會跟委員是一樣的，它應該要更準點，讓民眾不管是通勤也好，或者是長途旅遊也好，可以抓準自己的時間，不會影響到上下班。"],["吳委員宗憲：好吧！那我們就只能跟新任的部長講，你還是要解決這個臺鐵的問題，因為我自己辦公室的主任常常遲到……"],["陳部長世凱：是，我是覺得它應該要更準點一點。"],["吳委員宗憲：我辦公室的主任非常的常遲到，因為他都要坐臺鐵來上班，然後每一次我跟他溝通的時候，我就講不下去了，因為臺鐵就是常常誤點嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：很抱歉，我代替臺鐵跟委員抱歉。"],["吳委員宗憲：然後他如果要開車過來反而會花更多的時間，所以他都是搭乘大眾交通工具。我不是在那邊臭他啦！我只是說臺鐵誤點是一個很大的問題，要麻煩部長。"],["陳部長世凱：這個要解決。"],["吳委員宗憲：尤其很多私部門開會是不允許遲到的，這樣會讓一些民眾其實很困擾。我要跟部長就教第二個問題，就是捷運或高鐵的站臺都有裝設那個門……"],["陳部長世凱：是，月臺門。"],["吳委員宗憲：對，月臺門。在我自己以前的工作經驗中，我曾經也驗過幾次鐵路的事故，當然我驗的都是自殺，是自己跳下去自殺，但是過往也有不慎掉落的例子，不管是自殺或不慎掉落，是不是有可能裝設月臺門？是不是在臺鐵比較重要車站的月臺都能這麼做？目前有沒有這個規劃？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們目前有規劃在高雄站的部分，我們正在測試那個月臺門，大概明年就會做好測試然後把一個月臺的月臺門做好，但是臺鐵的部分會相對比較複雜一點，因為它的車型都不一樣，每個門開的地方不太一樣，所以那個月臺門也會跟大家的想像不一樣，不過對這一點我們已經在努力了，就是我們明年第一個測試的閘門會在高雄完成，當它完成測試之後，認為可以做，我們就會挑人比較多的站，也就是風險相對高的站，我們會來設置月臺門的部分。"],["吳委員宗憲：對，至少就是比較大的站、人多的站、有可能發生推擠的站，你是不是要優先處理？"],["陳部長世凱：對，沒錯。"],["吳委員宗憲：當然有一些小的站你們沒有優先處理，我們都可以理解，但是這個部分至少要做吧！"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["吳委員宗憲：目前火車是不是沒有辦法停到定點的那個位置？有沒有這個問題？"],["陳部長世凱：因為他們每一種列車的設計不太一樣，高低也會有落差，然後門的前後也會有落差，但是我看他們停車的部分都還是停在設定的點上面，停在設定點上是沒有問題的，但是門的位置可能都不太一樣。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，這樣我知道了，所以問題是在於門的位置。另外還有一件事情就是臺東的部分，其實我們臺東的黃建賓立委一直在協調讓臺東的旅遊補助能夠跟花蓮看齊，但是他努力了很久也沒有用，可是上次民進黨的莊瑞雄委員一到臺東去認養服務處之後，你們馬上就同意，而且還對外宣傳說他搞定了，那我想請問一下這是怎麼回事？"],["陳部長世凱：不是……"],["吳委員宗憲：沒關係，你說，你就直接告訴我。"],["陳部長世凱：我們一直在朝這個方向努力，包含我本人到花蓮跟花蓮的旅宿業者、觀光業者座談的時候，也有臺東的代表過來，他也有跟我表示這樣的意見……"],["吳委員宗憲：不好意思，要麻煩院長說明。"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，這個跟誰去認養臺東絕對沒有關係，我上次到花蓮之後，我們就決定花蓮跟臺東要同時啟用這個補助，但是臺東好像是希望他們晚一個月開始。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以臺東只是晚一個月開始，內容相同，我們現在也希望不要限定一人一次或是一次一個晚上，你可以從花蓮玩到臺東，再從臺東回來花蓮，我們都願意這樣來補助。"],["吳委員宗憲：我要跟院長報告，因為我知道部長以前是政治系出身的，我是說雖然是政治系出身，但是在施政上面我覺得還是不要有那種政治的分別，當然我們看到的是結論嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：不會、不會，對民眾的需求，我們幫得上忙的就儘量來做。"],["吳委員宗憲：我們看到的結論就是說，國民黨的立委黃建賓一直在努力奔走，可是他達不到什麼效果，但是莊瑞雄委員一到臺東就可以很順利的做到很多事情，那施政上面總是不要有敵我之分。"],["陳部長世凱：不會。"],["吳委員宗憲：如果是誤解，也可以用其他的方式來讓大家知道這是一個誤解，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好，沒問題。"],["吳委員宗憲：因為時間不夠了，最後我想跟院長報告的就是老人的問題，現在65歲以上的低收入族群一直在增加，那依照現在不動產的價格，大家也都買不起，所以院長，我們要記得禮運大同篇說的要老有所終，我們是不是要照顧他們？老人租屋以及補助，請院長一定要在這一塊來努力，因為我們是超高齡社會了，麻煩你了。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，我們再從政策面來做思考、跟委員請教，謝謝。"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝院長。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員、謝謝卓院長。","下一位楊曜委員的質詢以書面提出，請行政院以書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員楊曜書面質詢：","一、嚴格落實醫學中心評鑑制度","問題：全民健康保險結餘從2017年起再度出現赤字，直到2022年才終結連續5年赤字，由負轉正，主因為公務預算挹注健保及補充保費大增有關，但景氣帶來紅利及稅收超徵，並非每年都有，對於健保永續而言，並非最佳解方，因此，如何逐步的健全健保體制，並保障民眾醫療權益，本席相信這是政府應該努力的方向，根據醫學中心評鑑規則，原本應該是每兩百萬人一家醫學中心，以台灣目前的人口數來說，大約就是12家醫學中心，但現在卻有22家，已經變成每百萬人口就有一家醫學中心，請問衛福部真的有在落實評鑑規則嗎？無法嚴格落實評鑑的狀況下，只會讓評鑑的可信度大打折扣，以及越來越多升格的醫學中心來分食健保大餅，會造成區域及地區醫院的經營不易，無法讓分級醫療順利實施，讓民眾喪失對於台灣醫療品質的信心，因此，本席建議，除了要落實醫學中心評鑑外，也要對於醫學中心的總額進行控管。","二、針媒體報導澎湖駐軍擬減少一事，本席要求不宜減少駐軍。","問題：根據行政院提出114年度預算書報告，離島軍人預算員額將大減千人，約占目前駐軍的15%，有學者表示，114年國軍離島志願、義務役「預算員額」較今年互有消長，其中，離島義務役員額比今年多4倍，但離島守軍明年度「預算員額」卻將大減15%，不排除軍方有裁減澎湖駐軍規模的計畫，澎湖為台海防衛作戰第一線，中共戰機、戰艦時常侵擾台海中線，都是澎湖各項軍種兵力前往對峙，保衛台海安全，因此本席要求不宜減少駐軍外，由於澎湖位處重要戰略地位，從天駒部隊調整為常態部署，堅守空防第一線，就可得知區域情勢已有變化，因此澎湖的各軍種駐軍勤務日益繁重、操演增加，因此，本席先前也曾召開會議，要求國防部研議，加發澎湖駐軍獎金，也請國防部審慎評估可行性，以提升澎湖駐軍士氣，此外，澎湖國軍部隊的編現比、後勤補給，亦是國防戰力重要的一環，也請國防部務必留意。而離島部隊目前募兵困難的主因為志願役待遇不佳，加上義務役的薪水與志願役二兵的薪水相差不大，更難以吸引年輕人加入國軍行列，政策走向應該為增加志願役加給，提升台灣青年從軍意願，充實國軍戰力，而非直接減少第一作戰區的駐軍人數，影響台海安全。","三、勞保基金改革刻不容緩，僅憑單一改革方式並非長久之計。","問題：勞保基金財務問題是近年來國人最關注的議題之一，對此執政團隊以撥補作為主要手段，目前已累積撥補近三千億。想請教勞動部，除了撥補之外，是否有計畫以其他改革方式改善勞保財務議題？如多繳、少領、延後領或是設法提高基金收益率等？依照現況，退休國人平均能領到的勞保老年年金已低於台北市的最低生活費，近年來全球通膨持續，因此不可能再減少給付。台灣將進入超高齡社會，針對未來所謂的退休潮，勞保的資金缺口勢必擴大，撥補的金額也將越來越高，因此勞動部除了必須持續撥補以外，本席也要求勞動部也應提出其他政策工具向社會大眾說明並取得共識，以挽救岌岌可危的勞保基金。","四、國內旅遊持續慘澹，觀光署應儘早提出明年度澎湖地區國旅振興方案。","問題：先前本席已有要求，因出國旅遊已恢復常態化，可以預期的是國旅市場衰退，特別是澎湖觀光產業受創將更嚴重，當時，我也要求交通部要規劃相關方案，以因應國旅衰退的問題，今年本席有接到澎湖當地觀光業業者反映，業績至少衰退三成，顯示先前所擔憂的問題一一浮現，而剛剛落幕的「2024澎湖追風音樂燈光節」，亦有宣傳不足，大型展演無法吸引旅客至澎湖觀光等問題，為此，本席要求，觀光署應儘早提出明年度澎湖地區國旅振興方案，也應針對澎湖地區辦理秋冬大型展演活動如何持續精進提出改善措施，以利促進澎湖觀光業發展。","五、請海洋委員會研議於澎湖地區及鄰近海域試辦珊瑚礁復育計畫。","問題：八年來，透過「向海致敬」計畫以及本席向相關部會爭取預算，投注於澎湖地區及鄰近海域清除海底覆網，環境部自2021年起補助澎湖縣政府辦理海底覆網清理工作，自2021年至2024年8月底，累計清理重量約7萬6,800公斤，當中還不包含海洋委員會及農業部漁業署所清理成果，初步已略見成效，唯有逐步清除海底覆網，投入海洋復育的相關預算才能發揮成效，因此，本席要求，在海底覆網已清理已達一定成效之海域，海委會應著手研議提出棲地復育計畫，針對復育一事提出可行方案或模式，如復育珊瑚礁等方式，如此一來，才能加速讓澎湖海洋生態的復育。"],["主席：報告院會，上午質詢到此為止，本次會議未有委員提出臨時提案，就不進行臨時提案之處理。下午2點30分繼續開會，進行質詢，現在休息。","休息（12時5分）","繼續開會（14時30分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":204,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-2","speakers":["江啟臣","楊瓊瓔","吳秉叡","陳玉珍","王定宇","邱鎮軍","蘇巧慧","吳宗憲","楊曜","游顥","蘇清泉","林淑芬","廖偉翔","許宇甄","張宏陸"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2024-10-01"],"gazette_id":"1137601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第2次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1137601_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}