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各位大家午安 是不是請我們卓院長卓院長請備請林委員好院長"},{"start":32.928,"end":53.76,"text":"最近醫療糾紛的案子大概都沒有辦法進行因為《刑事訴訟法》在去年年底修正了第208條就是說法院或檢察官得主託醫院等機關團體鑑定或審查他人的鑑定而且要具名"},{"start":54.701,"end":69.735,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":69.875,"end":70.596,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":91.56,"end":120.013,"text":"醫省會把來自於檢察機關或司法機關的這些醫療糾紛事故的鑑定大概有300件你知道嗎已經退回這個地檢署有50件代退的有250件我們要講這個是說在這種過程從去年年底修法到現在從實施到現在將近半年了有300件的案件"},{"start":121.273,"end":134.398,"text":"進度是停滯的沒有辦法繼續審理的而且受到醫審會的案件是被退回的沒有退的也即將要被退那整個這個訴訟醫療糾紛的原告或被告整個訴訟的審理程式簡直是無法進行這個對"},{"start":141.32,"end":158.1,"text":"所有的這一些相關的權益影響甚大那這個事情滋事體大不曉得是該怎麼解決而你們今天在這個衛福部衛福部的醫事司有講說他們要把案件全部還給地檢署"},{"start":159.622,"end":181.749,"text":"那第1檢署請自行去尋找願意合作的醫學中心﹚醫師或專科醫學會自己去鑑定我們知道送到醫生會免費﹚送到醫院或者是醫學中心去鑑定是要錢的但是重點也不是在錢的問題而已是現在要具名﹚要具名"},{"start":182.569,"end":205.364,"text":"那衛福部的概念是說要請行政院跟司法機關去溝通轉達醫審會他有為難之處希望規定鑑定人員必須具名這個可以秉除醫師讓醫師安心可是呢我們去看了一下這個整個修法的過程"},{"start":206.465,"end":230.837,"text":"修法的過程裡面當初司法院跟我們的法務部提出這個《刑事訴訟法》第208條的修正其實所指的理由是說即便是機關鑑定也是機關內部的自然人實施鑑定或審查以後再用機關的名義出具書面報告"},{"start":232.458,"end":259.837,"text":"所以機關實施鑑定之自然人應該要準用相關規定除了書面報告以外當然要具名以事負責並立作為判斷其是否具備鑑定事格的依據及擔保鑑定或審查程序的專業性及公正性所以意思是說機關實施鑑定仍然由自然人為之"},{"start":261.778,"end":282.084,"text":"那大家都講說 這個醫生怕訴訟啊 怕跑法院啊 醫生還要上法院這樣子一語帶過 我是覺得啊 欸 司法機關講的有道理可是醫師 大家就一概的以醫師怕上法院為由 來講啊 這衛福部醫生會來這裡的人沒擔當"},{"start":284.785,"end":285.125,"text":"院長 部長 你們覺得呢?"},{"start":312.348,"end":340.34,"text":"鑑定報告是要居民去你比較不會做假還是居民去你比較會做假當時是一個修法的過程鑑定是司法院是希望是以居民的方式負責但是因為我也知道這個因為對我們以送件違建的一個單位來講有沒有居民其實跟整個鑑定的一個結果跟效力是沒有影響的但是最大的一個困難就是"},{"start":341.58,"end":350.016,"text":"如果說這個鑑定的結果有結論的必要的時候要到法庭去接受交互結論那我想這個會造成"},{"start":350.618,"end":372.674,"text":"建定的單位的一個心理上的部長剛剛我已經講了你們修法的時候講的是事實上具名要擔保他的事格而且要擔保他的專業和公正事實上這一點也是問題喔並不是你講說如果有糾紛要上法院而已我現在要講這個是因為站在衛福部的立場衛福部"},{"start":373.715,"end":397.463,"text":"部長你也說一下 為什麼議員會的人會拒絕審這個依舊的案件 為什麼三百件你看相關的權益 這半年來這三百件 三百個當事人他的權益都沒有任何保障 整個訴訟卡在那裡然後都沒有人出來解決 一定沒有人出來解決"},{"start":399.103,"end":419.971,"text":"衛福部退回去﹖然後法務部沒有辦法審理﹖司法機關也看說你自己都沒辦法起訴﹖沒辦法審理﹖跟他沒關係整個修法造成了整個當事人權益這麼的不保怎麼大家都沒有人願意主動出來解決問題"},{"start":421.721,"end":445.698,"text":"我覺得百思不得其解 當事人都放在那 放在那現在就要立委來質詢 看你要不要去改過嗎 是這樣嗎部長 衛福部部長 有什麼困難 講一下是的 報告委員本部已經因為這樣的原因 所以已經邀請司法院召開說明會也轉資司法院問答集 給醫審會的委員 專家及鑑定醫師"},{"start":449.69,"end":465.719,"text":"但是大部分的委員、專家及鑑定醫師表示不願意再參與醫事鑑定沒有人要來鑑定理由是什麼?他們擔心的是什麼?為什麼修了一個法結果造成沒有任何醫事人員、專業的人員願意來接受這個鑑定的這個任務呢?整個這樣可以停擺嗎?當事人權益怎麼辦?"},{"start":479.687,"end":500.435,"text":"我們本來想要修訂這個醫療法的施行細則那個增訂這個醫療鑒定相關資料應以保密不以公開的規定但是那個請教專家以後表示說這個你所說的跟司法機關跟法務部他們認為的剛好是背道而馳的"},{"start":501.115,"end":519.044,"text":"要具名才能具備這個才能夠這個我剛剛念過的齁讓他的鑑定的事格有依據他的專業性和公正性而且保證不造假我剛才跟你問的是要具名才能造假還是不具名才能造假"},{"start":520.256,"end":520.796,"text":"這個問題是鑑定只有具名"},{"start":549.377,"end":571.817,"text":"﹖"},{"start":572.905,"end":596.883,"text":"現在法律就明文規定要具名啦當初修法為什麼院和院之間沒有能夠好好的溝通這樣子硬修下去可行性執行上有沒有困難整個行政部門跟司法部門為什麼大家都沒有溝通然後就一意孤行就通過然後現在造成所有當事人權益受損呢"},{"start":597.563,"end":623.914,"text":"而當事人權益受損了以後呢 院跟院之間到現在到目前都沒有任何溝通各位委員幫我們今天看到這樣的狀況因為刑事訴訟法的主要的這個推修法的機關是司法院那我們會透過院跟院之間或是刑法當初就沒有了雖然是刑事訴訟法主管機關是司法院但是我們今天在講"},{"start":625.715,"end":641.152,"text":"對這跟你們有關的跟行政部門有關的一審會依須鑑定所謂的責任怎麼會跟你們行政部門沒有關係都有關係而一審會的重點來了你們去看一審會的設置要點不要忘了一審會是"},{"start":642.774,"end":664.874,"text":"可以召集一式鑑定小組得一鑑定案件性質分組召開會議所以看起來從這個設置要點來看一式鑑定小組是要一個小組的而且到時候的決議是要共識決的需要小組委員過半數的出席"},{"start":666.075,"end":691.004,"text":"決議事項需有出席委員過半數的同意可否同訴時由主席裁決所以這個共識決不是一個人的在這裡的共識決你叫一個醫生去具名到底要叫出審的、出判的還是要叫主席去具名誰要擔負這個責任不清不楚"},{"start":693.618,"end":697.091,"text":"制度面有沒有問題 有阿執行面有沒有問題 有阿"},{"start":700.373,"end":725.463,"text":"可是現在就擺爛在那裡的你說這全部都司法院可是沒有我們看這個新聞高檢署有表示高檢署說因應刑事訴訟鑑定相關規定修正正收集實務運作問題因應必要時將協調相關機關解決所以高檢署有這個理由嗎 有啊這已經擺爛了半年了"},{"start":726.603,"end":734.268,"text":"當事人的權益 你看我來一個醫療糾紛 今天因為沒辦法感應沒人要出來感應 沒機關去感應臨醫審會 公務部門 行政部門的公立的醫審會的這個機制都停擺還退件了 退件了300件 50件被退回去250件即將要被退回去"},{"start":755.348,"end":775.706,"text":"這個真的這樣擺爛下去是不行的啦跟委員報告,我想我們不會給他擺爛,我們是希望我們再來協調,議審會已經再來做,因為這是執行面的問題法律都這樣子規定了,議審會是共識決,要叫到一個移民我想我們再來做一個協調"},{"start":776.747,"end":777.268,"text":"這本的問題重重欸但是院長"},{"start":807.133,"end":812.758,"text":"現在他們的做法直接退回去 退回去地檢署 退回去地檢署可是法律已經修成這樣子了 這麼剛性的法律 你能夠自行去彈性調整嗎"},{"start":831.853,"end":837.197,"text":"衛福部部長你來講講看如果法律沒有修正最可能最可行的方式怎麼解決"},{"start":840.308,"end":840.808,"text":"法務部部長 最可行的方式是什麼"},{"start":862.995,"end":889.946,"text":"當然法律的話我們要依法來行政嘛當然我們希望說我們個案委託那個一事鑑定委會來鑑定我們希望來做一個鑑定那既然是一事鑑定委員會的委員認為這部分有自愛難行的部分我們再來瞭解開我們再來開會來瞭解說不然你們說這個都不對因為專台灣依照新式促進法第208條又不是只有一省會可以鑑定"},{"start":890.966,"end":913.676,"text":"條文寫得清清楚楚﹖跟主託醫院學校或其他相關的機關機構或團體為鑑定的是不是透過其他的機關鑑定﹖或是像這個衛福部所提的這個事情細則就是鑑定之後的資料 敘述於事主的不公開會不會有一個進展的可能"},{"start":916.044,"end":916.264,"text":"謝謝林委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-10-01T15:32:27.606000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T15:32:32.328000+08:00","text":"副院長、各位大家午安，是不是請卓院長？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-01T15:32:32.328000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T15:32:32.469000+08:00","text":"卓院長請備詢。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T15:32:32.469000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T15:32:32.609000+08:00","text":"林委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-10-01T15:32:32.829000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T15:33:45.560000+08:00","text":"院長，最近醫療糾紛的案子大概都沒有辦法進行，因為刑事訴訟法在去年年底修正了第二百零八條，法院或檢察官得囑託醫院等機關團體鑑定，或審查他人的鑑定，而且要具名，過去所有的醫療糾紛鑑定，大概都是送給衛福部的醫審會來進行。","quality":0.687},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-10-01T15:33:45.560000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T15:33:46.560000+08:00","text":"第一個，醫審會是機關內。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-10-01T15:33:46.560000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T15:33:47.560000+08:00","text":"第二個免費，因為醫審會有編列預算所以免費，雖然刑事訴訟法第二百零八條規定還可以委託其他機關、醫院等等進行鑑定，但是大家都還是委託醫審會居多。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-10-01T15:33:46.461000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T15:33:55.685000+08:00","text":"現在最嚴重的事情發生了，因為醫審會把來自於檢察機關或司法機關的這些醫療糾紛事故鑑定，大概有300件，已經退回地檢署的有50件，待退的有250件，你知道嗎？","quality":0.524},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-10-01T15:34:03.208000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T15:34:24.516000+08:00","text":"我們要講的是在這個過程，從去年年底修法到現在，從實施到現在將近半年了，有300件案件的進度是停滯的，沒有辦法繼續審理，而且送到醫審會的案件是被退回的，沒有退的也即將要被退。","quality":0.934},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-10-01T15:34:25.977000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T15:34:44.391000+08:00","text":"醫療糾紛的原告或被告在整個訴訟的審理程序中，簡直是無法進行，這對所有的相關權益影響甚大，這個事情茲事體大，不曉得該怎麼解決？","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-10-01T15:34:47.054000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T15:35:15.729000+08:00","text":"衛福部醫事司表示他們要把案件全部還給地檢署，地檢署請自行去尋找願意合作的醫學中心、醫師或專科醫學會自己去鑑定；我們知道送到醫審會免費，送到醫院或醫學中心去鑑定是要錢的，但是重點也不是在錢的問題而已，是現在要具名、要具名。","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-10-01T15:35:17.450000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T15:36:33.817000+08:00","text":"衛福部的概念是要請行政院跟司法機關去溝通，轉達醫審會有為難之處，希望規定鑑定人員必須具名可以摒除醫師，讓醫師安心，可是我們去看一下整個修法的過程，在修法的過程裡面，當初司法院跟法務部提出刑事訴訟法第兩百零八條的修正，其實所持的理由為即便是機關鑑定，也是機關內部的自然人實施鑑定或審查以後，再用機關的名義出具書面報告，所以機關實施鑑定之自然人應該要準用相關規定，除了書面報告以外，當然要具名以示負責，俾利作為判斷其是否具備鑑定適格的依據及擔保鑑定或審查程序的專業性及公正性，所以意思是機關實施鑑定，仍然由自然人為之。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-10-01T15:36:36.078000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T15:36:38.859000+08:00","text":"大家都講說醫生害怕訴訟啊！","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-10-01T15:36:39.099000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T15:36:39.839000+08:00","text":"害怕跑法院啦！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-10-01T15:36:41.280000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T15:36:42.320000+08:00","text":"醫生還要上法院！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-10-01T15:36:43.580000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T15:36:56.084000+08:00","text":"以這樣子一語帶過，我是覺得司法機關講的有道理，可是大家就一概以醫師怕上法院為由，來說衛福部醫審會這裡的人沒擔當，事實上也不是啊！","quality":0.831},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-10-01T15:36:56.084000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T15:36:57.434500+08:00","text":"你去叫教學中心、去叫醫院來鑑定，看他們要不要來鑑定，我相信有很多為難之處，有一點我就覺得聽起來合理，但人性上不見得可行啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-10-01T15:36:57.434500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T15:36:58.785000+08:00","text":"我現在比較想問大家的，到底具名的才容易造假，還是不具名的才比較容易造假？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-10-01T15:36:58.785000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T15:36:59.105000+08:00","text":"院長、部長，你們覺得呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-10-01T15:37:26.348000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T15:37:32.171000+08:00","text":"鑑定報告是要具名送上去才不會造假，還是具名上去才會造假？","quality":0.577},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-01T15:37:34.031000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T15:37:42.415000+08:00","text":"當初是一個修法的過程，司法院希望鑑定是以具名的方式以示負責。對！","quality":0.621},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-10-01T15:37:42.415000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T15:37:43.415000+08:00","text":"我剛剛已經說明過了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-01T15:37:42.415000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T15:38:07.440000+08:00","text":"但是因為我也知道對我們以送件為鑑的單位來講，有沒有具名，其實跟整個鑑定的結果跟效力是沒有影響的，但最大的一個困擾就是如果這個鑑定結果有詰問的必要時，要到法庭去接受交互詰問，我想這個會造成鑑定單位心理上的一個負擔。","quality":0.86},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-10-01T15:38:07.580000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T15:38:18.849000+08:00","text":"部長，剛剛我已經講了你們修法時講的是，事實上具名要擔保他的適格，而且要擔保他的專業和公正，這一點也是問題喔！","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-10-01T15:38:19.489000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T15:38:35.838000+08:00","text":"並不是你講的如果有糾紛要上法院而已，我現在要講這個是因為站在衛福部的立場，衛福部部長你也說一下，為什麼醫審會的人會拒絕審理醫糾的案件？300件欸！","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-10-01T15:38:36.258000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T15:38:51.463000+08:00","text":"你看相關的權益在這半年來，已經有300件、有300個當事人，他的權益都沒有任何保障，整個訴訟卡在那裡，然後都沒有人出來解決，院長，沒有人出來解決欸！","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-10-01T15:38:53.103000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T15:39:13.971000+08:00","text":"衛福部退回去，然後法務部沒有辦法審理，司法機關看到你們自己沒辦法起訴，也沒辦法審理，跟他們沒關係，整個修法造成了當事人權益這麼的不保，怎麼大家都沒有人願意主動出來解決問題？","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-10-01T15:39:15.721000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T15:39:26.689000+08:00","text":"我覺得百思不得其解，把當事人全部放在那裡、放到爛，現在就要立委來質詢，看你們要不要去解決，是這樣嗎？","quality":0.795},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-10-01T15:39:27.269000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T15:39:29.031000+08:00","text":"衛福部部長有什麼困難，講一下？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-10-01T15:39:29.651000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T15:39:29.811000+08:00","text":"好，是的！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-10-01T15:39:30.131000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T15:39:49.433000+08:00","text":"報告委員，本部因為這樣的原因，已經邀請司法院召開說明會，也轉知司法院問答集給醫審會的委員、專家及鑑定醫師，但是大部分的委員、專家及鑑定醫師表示不願意再參與醫事鑑定，所以113年……","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-10-01T15:39:50.774000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T15:39:52.995000+08:00","text":"沒有人要來鑑定，理由是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-10-01T15:39:52.995000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T15:39:54.936000+08:00","text":"他們擔心的是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-10-01T15:39:54.936000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T15:39:59.119000+08:00","text":"為什麼修了一個法，結果造成沒有任何醫事人員、專業的人員願意來接受鑑定的任務呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-10-01T15:39:59.119000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T15:40:00.119000+08:00","text":"本部在7月……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-10-01T15:39:59.139000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T15:39:59.519000+08:00","text":"可以整個停擺嗎？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-10-01T15:39:59.519000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T15:39:59.719000+08:00","text":"當事人的權益怎麼辦？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-10-01T15:40:13.687000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T15:40:28.272000+08:00","text":"我們本來想要修訂醫療法的施行細則，增訂醫療鑑定相關資料應予保密，不予公開的規定，但是請教專家以後表示說這個必須要……","quality":0.887},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-10-01T15:40:28.272000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T15:40:53.024000+08:00","text":"你所說的跟司法機關跟法務部他們認為的剛好是背道而馳的，要具名才能夠……我剛剛唸過的，讓他的鑑定的適格有依據，他的專業性和公正性，而且保證不造假，所以我剛才問你是要具名才會造假還是不具名才會造假？","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-10-01T15:40:53.024000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T15:41:02.004167+08:00","text":"部長你又沒說到一個重點……","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-10-01T15:41:02.004167+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T15:41:10.984333+08:00","text":"醫審會是整個很嚴謹的，已經很多年了，大概……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-10-01T15:41:10.984333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T15:41:19.964500+08:00","text":"部長，你沒有講重點，我幫你講好了啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-10-01T15:41:19.964500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T15:41:28.944667+08:00","text":"其實醫審會也可以從別的醫院鑑定，難道就一定要醫審會？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-10-01T15:41:28.944667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T15:41:37.924833+08:00","text":"為什麼都不委託別的醫院，別的醫院、醫生為什麼也不鑑定？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T15:41:37.924833+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T15:41:46.905000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我想這個問題是鑑定之後具名，會怕之後產生一些醫事糾紛之後的糾紛，所以設定這樣子，照委員剛剛所說的，這樣的可信度是不是會被接受、它的效力問題，雖然我們建議說鑑定不需要具名跟具結，那麼這個規定……","quality":0.099},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-10-01T15:41:46.905000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T15:41:48.887000+08:00","text":"現在法律就明文規定要具名啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T15:41:48.887000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T15:41:51.268000+08:00","text":"是不是能夠解決當事人沒有意願……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-10-01T15:41:51.268000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T15:42:01.075000+08:00","text":"當初修法，為什麼院和院之間沒有能夠好好地溝通，這樣子硬修下去，可行性、執行上有沒有困難？","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-10-01T15:42:01.075000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T15:42:10.863000+08:00","text":"整個行政部門跟司法部門為什麼大家都沒有溝通，然後就一意孤行通過，然後現在造成當事人權益受損呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-10-01T15:42:11.563000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T15:42:18.686000+08:00","text":"而當事人權益受損了以後，院跟院之間到現在、到目前都沒有任何溝通，只有衛福部送一個公文去給它叫它講，這樣說得過去嗎？","quality":0.558},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T15:42:23.768000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T15:42:32.491000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我們今天看到這樣的狀況，因為刑事訴訟法的主要修法機關是司法院，我們會透過院跟院之間或是請法務部……","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-10-01T15:42:32.812000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T15:42:47.404000+08:00","text":"當初就沒有了，雖然刑事訴訟法主管機關是司法院，但是我們今天在講，直接跟你們有關係，跟行政部門有關係的醫審會醫師鑑定所有的責任，怎麼會跟你們行政部門沒有關係？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-10-01T15:42:47.404000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T15:43:42.023000+08:00","text":"都有關係，而醫審會的重點來了，你們去看醫審會的設置要點，不要忘了，醫審會是可以召集醫事鑑定小組，得依鑑定案件性質分組召開會議，所以看起來，從這個設置要點來看，醫事鑑定小組是要一個小組的，而且到時候的決議是要共識決的，須要小組委員過半數的出席，決議事項須有出席委員過半數的同意，可否同數時由主席裁決，所以一個共識決不是一個人的，而且要共識決，你叫一個醫生去具名，到底要叫初審的、初判的還是要叫主席去具名？","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-10-01T15:43:42.963000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T15:43:44.984000+08:00","text":"誰要擔負這個責任不清不楚！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-10-01T15:43:47.618000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T15:43:48.783000+08:00","text":"制度面有沒有問題？有啊！","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-10-01T15:43:50.449000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T15:43:51.051000+08:00","text":"執行面有沒有問題？有啊！","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-10-01T15:43:54.373000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T15:44:17.282000+08:00","text":"可是現在就擺爛在那裡，你說這全部都司法院，可是沒有，我們看這個新聞，高檢署有表示，高檢署說因應刑事訴訟鑑定相關規定修正，正收集實務運作問題因應，必要時將協調相關機關解決，所以高檢署有沒有責任？有啊！","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-10-01T15:44:17.982000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T15:44:25.746000+08:00","text":"這已經擺爛半年了，當事人的權益，你看看，一個醫療糾紛，只因為沒辦法鑑定，沒人要出來鑑定，沒機關願意出來鑑定，連醫審會，公務部門、行政部門的公立的醫審會的這個機制都停擺，還退件！","quality":0.831},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-10-01T15:44:26.507000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T15:44:51.690000+08:00","text":"300件，50件被退回去，250件即將要被退回去，這多難看，真的這樣擺爛下去是不行的啦！","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-01T15:44:55.233000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T15:45:03.721000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我們不會讓它擺爛，我們也是希望我們再來協調醫審會……因為這是執行面的問題……","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-10-01T15:45:03.721000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T15:45:07.664000+08:00","text":"法律都這樣子規定了，醫審會是共識決，要叫哪一個醫生具名？","quality":0.76},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-01T15:45:09.006000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T15:45:09.706000+08:00","text":"我們再來做一個協調……","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-10-01T15:45:10.747000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T15:45:11.027000+08:00","text":"這問題重重耶！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T15:45:11.027000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T15:45:12.027000+08:00","text":"刑事訴訟法新的制度實施之後，衛福部在7月是有訂定一個施行細則，在這施行細則之內，他們是希望說……因為這個鑑定的資料應予保密，不予公開，但是在內部討論的時候，其他政委還是有一些不同的想法，我覺得我們內部現在可以再討論一下，如果有需要再跟司法院做溝通……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-10-01T15:45:11.087000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T15:45:43.655000+08:00","text":"但是院長，現在他們的作法是就直接退回去，退回去地檢署。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T15:45:43.655000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T15:45:44.655000+08:00","text":"碰到這個問題，謝謝委員的提醒，我們看到了這個問題，我請衛福部還有法務部再跟政委再研究一下，是不是要再跟司法院就現狀執行上的困難，以及這麼多案件累積無法……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-10-01T15:45:44.596000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T15:45:46.758000+08:00","text":"可是法律已經修成這樣子了，這麼剛性的法律你能夠自行去彈性調整嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T15:45:46.758000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T15:46:05.853000+08:00","text":"我們會再跟它說明，因為現狀已經有發生這個困難。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-10-01T15:46:05.853000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T15:46:11.197000+08:00","text":"來，衛福部部長來講講看，如果法律沒有修正，最可能、最可行的方式要怎麼解決？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-10-01T15:46:11.197000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T15:46:17.646500+08:00","text":"不知道？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-10-01T15:46:17.646500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T15:46:24.096000+08:00","text":"原來我們在……我們真的是也很積極在想辦法……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-10-01T15:46:24.096000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T15:46:30.545500+08:00","text":"沒有啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-10-01T15:46:30.545500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T15:46:36.995000+08:00","text":"你告訴我具體的講在不修法的狀況裡面，最可能、最具體可行的解決方式，不要讓當事人權益受損，可以進行真正的鑑定、程序可以進行下去，法務部部長你告訴我，最可行的方式是什麼？","quality":0.187},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-01T15:46:36.995000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T15:46:55.602000+08:00","text":"當然法律的話，我們要依法來行政，我們希望個案委託醫事鑑定委員會來鑑定，我們希望來做一個鑑定，既然是醫事鑑定委員會的委員認為這部分有窒礙難行的部分，我們再來開會了解到底……","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-10-01T15:46:56.163000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T15:47:12.249000+08:00","text":"沒有，你們說得都不對，因為全臺灣依照刑事訴訟法第二百零八條，又不是只有醫審會可以鑑定，條文寫得清清楚楚，跟囑託醫院、學校或其他相關的機關、機構或團體為鑑定，為什麼其他人也沒有在鑑定？","quality":0.671},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-10-01T15:47:12.249000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T15:47:17.812000+08:00","text":"為什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T15:47:17.812000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T15:47:27.656000+08:00","text":"透過其他的機關鑑定，或是像衛福部所提的施行細則，就是鑑定之後的資料是不是予以不公開，會不會有一個進展的可能？","quality":0.86},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-10-01T15:47:27.656000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T15:47:28.656000+08:00","text":"我不知道，所以真的是茲事體大啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-10-01T15:47:28.656000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T15:47:29.656000+08:00","text":"如果這樣有辦法做就趕快做，不要再拖下去，不知道到底是司法院的主張正確，還是我們這邊執行面真的有窒礙難行之處，這個事情真的要好好的去解決。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-10-01T15:47:29.656000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T15:47:30.656000+08:00","text":"我們一定持續跟司法院來溝通，希望能解決這個問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-10-01T15:47:30.656000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T15:47:31.656000+08:00","text":"好，OK。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-01T15:47:30.044000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T15:47:30.264000+08:00","text":"謝謝林委員，謝謝卓院長。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-01T15:47:30.764000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T15:47:37.049714+08:00","text":"報告院會，休息10分鐘，休息之後繼續進行質詢，現在休息。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-01T15:47:37.349714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T15:47:38.492571+08:00","text":"休息（15時48分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-01T15:47:38.792571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T15:47:40.506857+08:00","text":"繼續開會（15時59分）","quality":0}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-01T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"15:32:14 - 15:47:55","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第2次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","gazette":{"lineno":1360,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（15時32分）副院長、各位大家午安，是不是請卓院長？"],["主席：卓院長請備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：院長，最近醫療糾紛的案子大概都沒有辦法進行，因為刑事訴訟法在去年年底修正了第二百零八條，法院或檢察官得囑託醫院等機關團體鑑定，或審查他人的鑑定，而且要具名，過去所有的醫療糾紛鑑定，大概都是送給衛福部的醫審會來進行。第一個，醫審會是機關內。第二個免費，因為醫審會有編列預算所以免費，雖然刑事訴訟法第二百零八條規定還可以委託其他機關、醫院等等進行鑑定，但是大家都還是委託醫審會居多。現在最嚴重的事情發生了，因為醫審會把來自於檢察機關或司法機關的這些醫療糾紛事故鑑定，大概有300件，已經退回地檢署的有50件，待退的有250件，你知道嗎？我們要講的是在這個過程，從去年年底修法到現在，從實施到現在將近半年了，有300件案件的進度是停滯的，沒有辦法繼續審理，而且送到醫審會的案件是被退回的，沒有退的也即將要被退。醫療糾紛的原告或被告在整個訴訟的審理程序中，簡直是無法進行，這對所有的相關權益影響甚大，這個事情茲事體大，不曉得該怎麼解決？衛福部醫事司表示他們要把案件全部還給地檢署，地檢署請自行去尋找願意合作的醫學中心、醫師或專科醫學會自己去鑑定；我們知道送到醫審會免費，送到醫院或醫學中心去鑑定是要錢的，但是重點也不是在錢的問題而已，是現在要具名、要具名。","衛福部的概念是要請行政院跟司法機關去溝通，轉達醫審會有為難之處，希望規定鑑定人員必須具名可以摒除醫師，讓醫師安心，可是我們去看一下整個修法的過程，在修法的過程裡面，當初司法院跟法務部提出刑事訴訟法第兩百零八條的修正，其實所持的理由為即便是機關鑑定，也是機關內部的自然人實施鑑定或審查以後，再用機關的名義出具書面報告，所以機關實施鑑定之自然人應該要準用相關規定，除了書面報告以外，當然要具名以示負責，俾利作為判斷其是否具備鑑定適格的依據及擔保鑑定或審查程序的專業性及公正性，所以意思是機關實施鑑定，仍然由自然人為之。大家都講說醫生害怕訴訟啊！害怕跑法院啦！醫生還要上法院！以這樣子一語帶過，我是覺得司法機關講的有道理，可是大家就一概以醫師怕上法院為由，來說衛福部醫審會這裡的人沒擔當，事實上也不是啊！你去叫教學中心、去叫醫院來鑑定，看他們要不要來鑑定，我相信有很多為難之處，有一點我就覺得聽起來合理，但人性上不見得可行啦！我現在比較想問大家的，到底具名的才容易造假，還是不具名的才比較容易造假？院長、部長，你們覺得呢？鑑定報告是要具名送上去才不會造假，還是具名上去才會造假？"],["鄭部長銘謙：當初是一個修法的過程，司法院希望鑑定是以具名的方式以示負責。"],["林委員淑芬：對！我剛剛已經說明過了。"],["鄭部長銘謙：但是因為我也知道對我們以送件為鑑的單位來講，有沒有具名，其實跟整個鑑定的結果跟效力是沒有影響的，但最大的一個困擾就是如果這個鑑定結果有詰問的必要時，要到法庭去接受交互詰問，我想這個會造成鑑定單位心理上的一個負擔。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，剛剛我已經講了你們修法時講的是，事實上具名要擔保他的適格，而且要擔保他的專業和公正，這一點也是問題喔！並不是你講的如果有糾紛要上法院而已，我現在要講這個是因為站在衛福部的立場，衛福部部長你也說一下，為什麼醫審會的人會拒絕審理醫糾的案件？300件欸！你看相關的權益在這半年來，已經有300件、有300個當事人，他的權益都沒有任何保障，整個訴訟卡在那裡，然後都沒有人出來解決，院長，沒有人出來解決欸！衛福部退回去，然後法務部沒有辦法審理，司法機關看到你們自己沒辦法起訴，也沒辦法審理，跟他們沒關係，整個修法造成了當事人權益這麼的不保，怎麼大家都沒有人願意主動出來解決問題？我覺得百思不得其解，把當事人全部放在那裡、放到爛，現在就要立委來質詢，看你們要不要去解決，是這樣嗎？衛福部部長有什麼困難，講一下？"],["邱部長泰源：好，是的！報告委員，本部因為這樣的原因，已經邀請司法院召開說明會，也轉知司法院問答集給醫審會的委員、專家及鑑定醫師，但是大部分的委員、專家及鑑定醫師表示不願意再參與醫事鑑定，所以113年……"],["林委員淑芬：沒有人要來鑑定，理由是什麼？他們擔心的是什麼？為什麼修了一個法，結果造成沒有任何醫事人員、專業的人員願意來接受鑑定的任務呢？"],["邱部長泰源：本部在7月……"],["林委員淑芬：可以整個停擺嗎？當事人的權益怎麼辦？"],["邱部長泰源：我們本來想要修訂醫療法的施行細則，增訂醫療鑑定相關資料應予保密，不予公開的規定，但是請教專家以後表示說這個必須要……"],["林委員淑芬：你所說的跟司法機關跟法務部他們認為的剛好是背道而馳的，要具名才能夠……我剛剛唸過的，讓他的鑑定的適格有依據，他的專業性和公正性，而且保證不造假，所以我剛才問你是要具名才會造假還是不具名才會造假？部長你又沒說到一個重點……"],["邱部長泰源：醫審會是整個很嚴謹的，已經很多年了，大概……"],["林委員淑芬：部長，你沒有講重點，我幫你講好了啦！其實醫審會也可以從別的醫院鑑定，難道就一定要醫審會？為什麼都不委託別的醫院，別的醫院、醫生為什麼也不鑑定？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我想這個問題是鑑定之後具名，會怕之後產生一些醫事糾紛之後的糾紛，所以設定這樣子，照委員剛剛所說的，這樣的可信度是不是會被接受、它的效力問題，雖然我們建議說鑑定不需要具名跟具結，那麼這個規定……"],["林委員淑芬：現在法律就明文規定要具名啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：是不是能夠解決當事人沒有意願……"],["林委員淑芬：當初修法，為什麼院和院之間沒有能夠好好地溝通，這樣子硬修下去，可行性、執行上有沒有困難？整個行政部門跟司法部門為什麼大家都沒有溝通，然後就一意孤行通過，然後現在造成當事人權益受損呢？而當事人權益受損了以後，院跟院之間到現在、到目前都沒有任何溝通，只有衛福部送一個公文去給它叫它講，這樣說得過去嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，我們今天看到這樣的狀況，因為刑事訴訟法的主要修法機關是司法院，我們會透過院跟院之間或是請法務部……"],["林委員淑芬：當初就沒有了，雖然刑事訴訟法主管機關是司法院，但是我們今天在講，直接跟你們有關係，跟行政部門有關係的醫審會醫師鑑定所有的責任，怎麼會跟你們行政部門沒有關係？都有關係，而醫審會的重點來了，你們去看醫審會的設置要點，不要忘了，醫審會是可以召集醫事鑑定小組，得依鑑定案件性質分組召開會議，所以看起來，從這個設置要點來看，醫事鑑定小組是要一個小組的，而且到時候的決議是要共識決的，須要小組委員過半數的出席，決議事項須有出席委員過半數的同意，可否同數時由主席裁決，所以一個共識決不是一個人的，而且要共識決，你叫一個醫生去具名，到底要叫初審的、初判的還是要叫主席去具名？誰要擔負這個責任不清不楚！制度面有沒有問題？有啊！執行面有沒有問題？有啊！可是現在就擺爛在那裡，你說這全部都司法院，可是沒有，我們看這個新聞，高檢署有表示，高檢署說因應刑事訴訟鑑定相關規定修正，正收集實務運作問題因應，必要時將協調相關機關解決，所以高檢署有沒有責任？有啊！這已經擺爛半年了，當事人的權益，你看看，一個醫療糾紛，只因為沒辦法鑑定，沒人要出來鑑定，沒機關願意出來鑑定，連醫審會，公務部門、行政部門的公立的醫審會的這個機制都停擺，還退件！300件，50件被退回去，250件即將要被退回去，這多難看，真的這樣擺爛下去是不行的啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，我們不會讓它擺爛，我們也是希望我們再來協調醫審會……因為這是執行面的問題……"],["林委員淑芬：法律都這樣子規定了，醫審會是共識決，要叫哪一個醫生具名？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們再來做一個協調……"],["林委員淑芬：這問題重重耶！"],["卓院長榮泰：刑事訴訟法新的制度實施之後，衛福部在7月是有訂定一個施行細則，在這施行細則之內，他們是希望說……因為這個鑑定的資料應予保密，不予公開，但是在內部討論的時候，其他政委還是有一些不同的想法，我覺得我們內部現在可以再討論一下，如果有需要再跟司法院做溝通……"],["林委員淑芬：但是院長，現在他們的作法是就直接退回去，退回去地檢署。"],["卓院長榮泰：碰到這個問題，謝謝委員的提醒，我們看到了這個問題，我請衛福部還有法務部再跟政委再研究一下，是不是要再跟司法院就現狀執行上的困難，以及這麼多案件累積無法……"],["林委員淑芬：可是法律已經修成這樣子了，這麼剛性的法律你能夠自行去彈性調整嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會再跟它說明，因為現狀已經有發生這個困難。"],["林委員淑芬：來，衛福部部長來講講看，如果法律沒有修正，最可能、最可行的方式要怎麼解決？不知道？"],["邱部長泰源：原來我們在……我們真的是也很積極在想辦法……"],["林委員淑芬：沒有啦！你告訴我具體的講在不修法的狀況裡面，最可能、最具體可行的解決方式，不要讓當事人權益受損，可以進行真正的鑑定、程序可以進行下去，法務部部長你告訴我，最可行的方式是什麼？"],["鄭部長銘謙：當然法律的話，我們要依法來行政，我們希望個案委託醫事鑑定委員會來鑑定，我們希望來做一個鑑定，既然是醫事鑑定委員會的委員認為這部分有窒礙難行的部分，我們再來開會了解到底……"],["林委員淑芬：沒有，你們說得都不對，因為全臺灣依照刑事訴訟法第二百零八條，又不是只有醫審會可以鑑定，條文寫得清清楚楚，跟囑託醫院、學校或其他相關的機關、機構或團體為鑑定，為什麼其他人也沒有在鑑定？為什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：透過其他的機關鑑定，或是像衛福部所提的施行細則，就是鑑定之後的資料是不是予以不公開，會不會有一個進展的可能？"],["林委員淑芬：我不知道，所以真的是茲事體大啦！如果這樣有辦法做就趕快做，不要再拖下去，不知道到底是司法院的主張正確，還是我們這邊執行面真的有窒礙難行之處，這個事情真的要好好的去解決。"],["邱部長泰源：我們一定持續跟司法院來溝通，希望能解決這個問題。"],["林委員淑芬：好，OK。"],["主席：謝謝林委員，謝謝卓院長。","報告院會，休息10分鐘，休息之後繼續進行質詢，現在休息。","休息（15時48分）","繼續開會（15時59分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":204,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-2","speakers":["江啟臣","楊瓊瓔","吳秉叡","陳玉珍","王定宇","邱鎮軍","蘇巧慧","吳宗憲","楊曜","游顥","蘇清泉","林淑芬","廖偉翔","許宇甄","張宏陸"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2024-10-01"],"gazette_id":"1137601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第2次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1137601_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}