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院長部長我想要請問一下川普有說台灣的國防預算應該要佔GDP的10%請教一下院長萬一我們的川普當選了你們會配合他嗎我們的國防預算是依照我們國家的需要就保衛國家安全那麼我們會來就這個需要的方面來編列我們相關的預算絕不是要"},{"start":148.715,"end":149.996,"text":"那院長我們是不是就不會停他的"},{"start":178.479,"end":200.081,"text":"我會因為他講一句話就要做這件事我們聽我們的以及聽我們的三軍統帥跟國防部的規劃三軍統帥好我們明年國防預算已經上看6740億已經佔GDP的2.45%所以現在川普的說法要求我們到10%的話等於是國防預算要達到兩兆7所以我在這裡還有包含剛剛送這些東西就是也要呼籲我們賴清德總統"},{"start":202.603,"end":221.941,"text":"大國以仁小國以治希望我們的賴總統我們的三軍統帥可以有智慧的帶領我們中華民國和平穩定的發展千萬不要變成輕德斯基委員放心這個不僅是國策也是總統率領國家的重要的方向好謝謝我們的顧部長可以回座了"},{"start":224.643,"end":235.419,"text":"總委員長賴清德總統上任前宣誓要做100萬戶的社會住宅其中50萬戶是租金補貼25萬戶是社會住宅25萬戶是包租代管的三大方向"},{"start":236.021,"end":262.589,"text":"那先談租金補貼的部分我想請教院長目前內政部使用了不涉及不追稅不查稅的方式現在總共核准了將近66萬戶今年補助補貼的金額也超過了265億所以我是想要問一下院長你們現在這樣子的是不是代表你們要跟國人報告你們的百萬戶的社會住宅政策賴清德上任半年就已經達成了66萬戶對嗎"},{"start":265.145,"end":267.866,"text":"所以意思就是說賴慶哲上任半年已經達成超過50萬戶的社會住宅是這樣的意思嘛對不對"},{"start":280.202,"end":299.516,"text":"在百萬戶這個家庭輔助計畫裡面的三支箭第三支箭確實是已經達到所以意思就是說你們已經達標而且還超標了66萬戶OK不過我想要請先看看我們院長看看國土署當初發布的新聞稿300億的這個中央擴大租金補貼專案你們國土署的新聞稿怎麼寫的"},{"start":300.516,"end":313.583,"text":"當初這個300億的中央擴大補貼的方案就是說希望掌握市場上大量有效的租約資訊將透過定期統計公開達成租屋市場透明化那我想請問你們目前有掌握租屋黑市的狀況嗎"},{"start":314.92,"end":330.012,"text":"報告委員我想這個部分大概也是相對很多委員希望知道的不管是租金補貼或是包租貸款我們透過我們的地政資料現在慢慢地把去識別化的狀態之下都把它按照地區有公布出來相關的租金補貼的狀況但是它是一個區塊的方式而不是一個一個"},{"start":338.519,"end":354.363,"text":"好 那我等一下給你看 我想請教院長 你們說本來是說2025年1月份要公布資料但看一下現階段的資訊根據內政部不動產交易實價查詢服務網就會發現租賃查詢的實價登錄總共只有大概10.5萬戶那零補助的戶數跟剛剛就是說66萬戶相差了將近55萬戶"},{"start":359.944,"end":379.037,"text":"這就是我們現在台灣租屋黑市的現況請問院長你對於這樣的成績滿意嗎委員你的說法的基準不太一樣我剛剛跟您報告了就是說現在呢領取租金補貼的總共有60幾萬戶這些部分在我們地政司裡面都有相關的資料但是我們把它去識別化以後按照地區呢已經把它公佈而且放在我們的官網上面"},{"start":379.926,"end":401.69,"text":"你是說像這個中央剛剛我說的我們放在我們內政部的官網裡面那為什麼我去聞的時候你跟我說沒有不是你們的業務要不要看一下我們的那個公文租屋黑樹研究及統計非本屬業管統計全責無資料提供你剛剛還說有下面這就是你們回我的公文阿"},{"start":403.664,"end":423.144,"text":"您現在講的這個租屋的這個黑數的部分是大概就是說第一個他不是找這個官方的包租代管或是經過我們土地租金跟那個官方申請的部分沒關係所以你說你66萬戶都有掌握是這樣嗎?是的因為他們有申請租金補貼的話我們就知道他到底是誰你都知道每個位置在哪裡然後這個屋主是誰那為什麼沒有實價登錄上去?"},{"start":426.029,"end":436.019,"text":"實價登錄沒有我剛跟委員報告的部分他是一個區塊的方式區塊的方式那我給你看實價登錄只有在我們買賣的這個房產的房地產上面才會有租屋的實價登錄"},{"start":438.243,"end":466.857,"text":"我剛有說內政部有租屋的租金的部分好現在我跟你說你剛說區塊的部分我給你看現在內政部公開透明的方式就是一個區一個中位數院長請你看一個區一個中位數也沒有不知道有沒有電梯不知道房屋種類不知道屋齡連幾坪都不知道只有把25分位50分位75分位公布出來光看這資料我可不可以說臺北市的房租比新北市還要便宜這樣合理嗎所以我要講的事情就是"},{"start":468.001,"end":490.242,"text":"你再變也沒用連立法院的預算中心都已經明確指出我國多數的租屋案件未納入實價登錄對眾多租屋人口權益保障朋友欠完備推動租屋市場價格透明化容待精進我想容待精進這四個字這幾個字都講得很客氣了所以院長這樣擴大租金補貼的專案從2022年到2025年預估多少"},{"start":495.237,"end":517.142,"text":"剛剛部長在跟委員報告的過程就是說112年有效租約的案件大概75%我們都有掌握他的資訊那麼在租金透明化的過程當中是集中在大學周邊以及每個行政區我們做這樣的先大規模大街廓的大區域的公佈請問2022到2025預估要補貼發出多少錢"},{"start":521.116,"end":526.864,"text":"按照我們現在在114年要求這個行政院補助的部分的話大概是有200億左右"},{"start":528.41,"end":549.448,"text":"為什麼這邊的數字大概是200億應該是今年吧對不對我現在說的是114年的部分對所以我說2022到2025預估總共要多少2022開始到現在為止這個比較小一點大概也是大概也是大概804億沒有那是加總的部分對就是加總我剛剛就是說加總對我就是說加總嘛我說2022到2025"},{"start":554.79,"end":558.301,"text":"國家駐都中心興建4年的社宅加總工程費用多少?"},{"start":559.967,"end":585.056,"text":"大概872億我們可以看到租金補貼的政策的經費將近已經逼近我們新建社宅的經費況且全世界也沒有人會把租金補貼當成社宅的認定報告委員租金補貼的部分在住宅法裡面確實有名列進去所以我們認為租金補貼也算是住宅法規執行的一部分我剛剛已經說50萬戶也算進去我只是把這個全世界沒有人這樣講的把它補進去而已"},{"start":586.116,"end":597.268,"text":"所以連省紀部111年的決算報告都曾經指出問題直接寫租賃市場產生租屋黑市或地下化的問題所以導致中央地方機關雖然積極推動租金補貼等協助措施卻無法確實發揮效益"},{"start":603.374,"end":628.212,"text":"也就是說現在黑市不解決 補助就沒有辦法實質發揮效益甚至還發生易領的狀況 有發生易領一億多那請問賴清德居住正義補貼50萬戶是為了湊數字還是要促進租屋市場透明院長我要講的是新清安政策也是狂撒幣 但是撒下去之後就出問題了院長我也很擔憂你的租金補貼政策會不會跟新清安一樣"},{"start":629.182,"end":637.436,"text":"為了要達到居住正義的目的但是反而手段不正義欠缺通盤規劃導致我們國家的住宅政策一團混亂"},{"start":638.835,"end":665.821,"text":"我這個是百萬豬家庭支持計劃方案的一部分那一起我們設定他是50萬戶那現在因為市場反應大家需求現在到60幾萬戶這三個方向我都很清楚我繼續問未來我們也希望他不要在毫無限制的一直往上增加我們重點還是要放在直接興建跟包租貸款謝謝你要直接興建跟包租貸款嗎好我們現在講興建設宅的部分請教院長賴清德總統說要蓋25萬戶設宅"},{"start":668.069,"end":697.206,"text":"那目前由中央興建完工並且已經可以招租的才總共4767戶喔3萬多戶欸這是完工已經可以供招租的喔這是你們網路上的數字喔沒有3萬多戶現在你說3萬多戶可以出租了是不是已經出出去了嗎已經有的像林口的話幾乎都是滿租的狀況欸你3萬多是包括地方政府喔我現在講的是中央政府興建且完工的喔你要講清楚喔你要看一下數字嗎是好你們興建且完工的"},{"start":698.203,"end":702.864,"text":"蔡英文8年加上賴清德半年總共不到2000戶的成績我想人民要怎麼相信你8年內能蓋完25萬戶所以我想問一下現在住租中心接下來要蓋多少戶"},{"start":722.32,"end":744.507,"text":"報告委員我們希望說中央跟地方一起努力然後到2032年之前可以完成25萬戶所以你的25萬戶不是只有中央興建是包含要把地方人都納進來了因為我們當時在協調地方的時候我們中央的國土署也有協助那我也想問你我也查了你們的資料截至今年5月你們盤點的總計219處的土地那總共只有7萬1千多戶你們盤點的土地只有7萬多戶算剩下18萬戶要蓋正了"},{"start":749.813,"end":771.213,"text":"是要填海造海 造陸嗎?還是你現在夠了嗎?盤地方的你這些土地有夠嗎?是 跟委員報告我們現在當然是在盤點土地當中而且希望能夠有多元的管道而且我們希望說透過每個縣市地方政府的都市計畫在未來做區段徵收的時候會釋放出3%到5%的土地供我們興建住宅 社會住宅"},{"start":771.673,"end":794.402,"text":"好我在這裡要提醒你如果沒有規劃的話我想你們的社會住宅的政策也會跟你們的這個租金補貼政策目前為止我們在中央的興建速度是還算可以但是地方已經都沒有那麼快了沒問題部長這個院長你的部長非常有信心所以我這裡也準備了一個承諾支票我想你願不願意簽下這張承諾支票宣誓賴清德總統一定會達到這個25萬戶的決心"},{"start":796.496,"end":797.777,"text":"我這裡寫了25萬戶就是依照你們的50萬、25萬、25萬"},{"start":804.878,"end":831.414,"text":"可以嗎 你們可以簽嗎 院長在113年底希望能夠達到20萬戶 那就現在為止這個 院長你願不願意簽這個承諾資料 經過宿宅以及社宅有18萬戶我覺得政府的政策是用在我們的施政報告跟預算書上面來呈現的而不是用一種簽名的方式 過去到現在都是這樣在進行所以換言之就是 院長你沒辦法保證你可以 你會達標你可能會跳票的意思"},{"start":832.13,"end":846.345,"text":"那個簽名對我們政策的推動沒有任何的特別意義原來我們的院長完全不敢為賴清德的承諾背書啊所謂一百萬戶的社宅海峽海然後二十五萬戶可不可以蓋成你這樣的直接的說法我覺得這樣會變口號之國啦"},{"start":849.408,"end":873.747,"text":"對總統的政見在全力的推動這是我們對政策的負責好 院長我在這裡就是要代表關心居住正義的年輕人想要問你願不願意簽這個承諾所以你現在是不願意簽 對不對我們在政策上已經講得很清楚我們往這個方向一直在努力好 所以你就是不願意簽 沒問題我想這真的令人非常的遺憾你們民進黨的政府在居住正義上面負了年輕人"},{"start":874.795,"end":886.185,"text":"委員如果您真正關心的租金補貼的部分的話其實我們過去兩年租金補貼在青年的上面滿意度是70%以上的我沒有說你租金補貼怎麼樣我是說你的政策目標沒有達成"},{"start":887.145,"end":903.077,"text":"租金補貼拿到錢大家當然都很快樂阿但是你的黑市問題沒解決阿所以你現在還要在這邊忙院長最後我聊聊居住正義三件喔你們剛剛的三件我都清楚所以你一直在這邊兜數字你根本是在瞎扯淡我明明就說50萬戶你們租住補貼到了66萬戶可是你的黑市問題沒有解決"},{"start":909.585,"end":931.757,"text":"您現在講的是一般上面的租屋市場不是我們現在在租金補貼上的補貼對象是政府有責任要給人民可負擔的有保障的多元的居住選擇權利那現在我們居住正義剛剛講了三階段設宅蓋的速度不夠所以現在設宅有限租屋市場不透明也有可能租金也隨著這樣子上漲"},{"start":932.597,"end":948.534,"text":"那房價門檻更高到讓年輕人難以跨越那麼可以看一下我們這個現在的居住正義是這樣看一下我們的簡報社宅租屋到購屋已經完全的失衡了那我想要請問一下有沒有第4種可能性"},{"start":949.893,"end":971.689,"text":"政府目前有沒有在這個土地的盤點除了新建設宅之外有沒有另外一種去思考一種中間型的住宅方案另外半永久式的或是類似這樣青年可負擔宅的規劃類似像新加坡的主屋的模式同時具備長期居住然後封閉市場封閉市場的條件可負擔的條件請問我們有沒有這樣的規劃"},{"start":972.609,"end":990.55,"text":"包括委員其實各種的規劃包括你所說的這個不管是英國的或者是新加坡的我們都有在考慮當中但是在台灣一般人是安土中堅的狀況之下他們當然希望社會住宅住得越久越好變成他們永久的租屋市場不像現在是6年那所以我們也在考慮說除了年輕人以外"},{"start":990.99,"end":993.772,"text":"我想要表達的是我支持這樣的方向那我也希望我剛剛說的多元的可負擔的好不好"},{"start":1012.306,"end":1021.618,"text":"多元可負擔的可以保障的請往這邊方向去推動我自己也做了許多的研究未來有機會希望可以多多交流我們都希望可以推成這件事情"},{"start":1023.783,"end":1045.08,"text":"好所以我還是要講居住正義不是大撒幣的臭數字而已要促進市場透明要完善整體的機制留下一個具體可以長期運作的制度給我們下一代這是我認為的居住正義希望我們未來4年未來的任期可以好好的推動把這個居住正義留給我們的下一代讓他們可以住得起房好不好好再來"},{"start":1046.874,"end":1073.852,"text":"院長最近有很多民眾喔收到電價調漲的電費單不僅一般住戶抱怨甚至南台灣有串燒店因為抱怨店裡的電費破紀錄創新高真是謝了綠色是最噁心的顏色然後這個電價就被出征了請問院長電價高漲是事實但是現在連老百姓抱怨都被出征你不覺得很恐怖嗎院長我是覺得啊年年漲電價是一件非常恐怖的事情喔"},{"start":1074.688,"end":1099.659,"text":"老百姓跟店家的抱怨其實都不是沒有道理你可以知道我們的民生用電已經連續3年調漲已經累計漲了30.4%工業用電已經連續3次調漲再加上昨天第4波已經來到了66.27%所以你的官邸有公務預算可以出但是國內的這些產業用電可是要列為成本"},{"start":1100.7,"end":1122.037,"text":"那三年漲了66.27%請問有多少產業扛得住啊 院長我們這次對電價的討論電價審議委員會在討論過程當中 我知道他們把握原則叫反映成本我們必須讓台電的成本適度反映出來所以這個是接近成本的一個計算現在民生電價連三漲 百姓苦哈哈工業電價連四漲 產業慘兮兮"},{"start":1130.023,"end":1147.337,"text":"但是這3年在漲電價的同時我們經濟部也在全年已經增資台電1500億去年易後特別條例預算又撥補了500億6月的時候經濟部呢又增資台電1000億已經補貼3000億了現在又希望立法院通過"},{"start":1149.379,"end":1160.771,"text":"這個2000億的補貼預算總共加起來是5000億這5000億台電左手跟人民漲電價右手拿人民的納給政府的稅金5000億的補貼全部都是老百姓的錢"},{"start":1161.598,"end":1190.364,"text":"那現在你們嘴巴上說尊重立法院的決定但是一邊漲電價一邊又要立法院通過這些預算補貼台電我想這看起來在老百姓的眼裡這不只是情緒勒索應該是真的在勒索那當然經濟部昨天有說這次調漲電價有兩個原則您剛剛有說到的一個是照顧民生穩定電價穩定物價另外一個是兼顧產業競爭力但是有學者就說這是大家經濟部在自己騙自己"},{"start":1191.277,"end":1219.889,"text":"因為這次的調漲生產成本會再度上升很難消弭民眾聽好囉民眾對於物價上漲的預期心理再者所謂兼顧這個產業競爭力連33會的這個林柏峰會長也就是說這次漲價會導致企業獲利減少大概5%廠商可能會外移或關廠進而影響勞動市場接下來無薪假裁員的情況會更多院長你能保證明年不再漲電價嗎我想要問這個"},{"start":1222.83,"end":1246.361,"text":"今年我們是看到因為戰爭之後原物料的上漲所以我們在取得的成本上面經過核實的計算讓工業用戶比較大戶的這個用電戶能夠在反映成本跟使用者付費的原則底下是這個電價審議委員會通過這樣的原則現在能源政策就是成本太高嘛對不對好可是你願不願意承諾明年不會漲電價院長"},{"start":1248.786,"end":1270.696,"text":"報告委員我們這次漲的電價請回答我可不可以保證沒關係請回答我可不可以保證你們剛剛講的這些我昨天都有看我知道我們的CPI影響只有0.03%所以你講說會造成什麼樣的經濟波動我們認為這個是都計算過的院長健保費都可以保障明年不漲我們電費可以保障嗎不敢講"},{"start":1272.332,"end":1289.621,"text":"我也不能保證明年軍工價會不會調漲因為這要橫估很多的社會經濟條件我們必須在這個平衡底下才能來做一個決定不是現在還預估明年漲不漲所以沒關係就是不能夠保證嘛 對不對所以我們才可以進一步來討論更保證太廉價也沒有意義啊"},{"start":1290.161,"end":1313.217,"text":"所以我們進一步來討論賴總統推動的五大信賴產業大概全數都是少數高毛利的電子產業或許還可以稱可是大部分的傳產包括在地方上已經有很多的中小企業工具機產業、旅宿業者甚至媒體也都報導電價再漲下去年底可能會倒一片恐怕會有一片停業潮這些業主還自嘲自己就是不受信賴產業"},{"start":1314.558,"end":1326.437,"text":"這就是這段時間人民的心聲我幫大家反映出來然後呢現在工廠公司停業人民失業然後老百姓抱怨一下就要被出征這樣子合理嗎"},{"start":1327.628,"end":1354.348,"text":"所以你剛剛有說要穩定民生所以民生電價不漲我認同那工業電價漲12.5%到現在漲了累積漲了66.27然後你昨天說剛剛我們部長有說衝擊到0.03%對不對所以我剛剛有說這是你們算出來那你有沒有算到這個我剛剛已經講過的經濟學裡面有人學者就提出民眾會有漲價的預期心理那這部分要怎麼處理這是第一件事"},{"start":1355.329,"end":1369.048,"text":"況且更多的官方數據統計都是低估的更何況0.03你目前是指今年那請問到明年呢明年你可以敢說到明年這個時間不會超過0.03嗎對不對還是我們就到明年來看看到底是不是0.03"},{"start":1371.599,"end":1388.418,"text":"報告委員 我想我們這一次你剛才在指導的說這個小企業或者是中型的企業比較艱苦的這個企業我們會有兩個方式來幫助他們一個就是推動我們的AI另外一個就推動低碳化"},{"start":1388.979,"end":1389.119,"text":"廖偉翔"},{"start":1408.64,"end":1432.314,"text":"對我們來講那這個部分可不可以請你會後提供報告給我因為的確我認同這個方向我沒有不認同我覺得這個方向是對的但是我還是在跟你討論電價的問題和能源政策的問題因為目前為止你急因為你這個東西你剛剛講的那些東西是需要時間累積的好所以現在簡單來講短時間內漲這些東西會導致一些企業出走或是倒閉好那我你們有估算過嗎"},{"start":1434.209,"end":1442.077,"text":"我給你們看一個數據這是投審會的數據官方資料我國對外投資從99億美金大增到235.7億美金漲幅達2.38倍那外國人願意來台投資的從133億美金掉到112億一來一回大概就是淨流出123.7億美金"},{"start":1458.749,"end":1474.511,"text":"那這些數據就是活生生的代表現在就是的確很多的產業在往海外去設廠因為他擔心台灣任何的不穩定所以逼著他出去那基本上他們現在的狀況就只能面臨兩條路一要嘛我收掉賣掉"},{"start":1475.592,"end":1475.892,"text":"掌電價的調整"},{"start":1497.841,"end":1500.663,"text":"對於臺電的營運財務的健全有幫忙 漲電價同時我們也會透過經濟部的這個節約用電的團隊去幫各個大戶"},{"start":1510.998,"end":1511.298,"text":"我們就是發展綠能"},{"start":1538.766,"end":1564.736,"text":"而且能夠多方面的引進新的能源的總概念用天然氣來做橋接對行政院合併的能源發展綱領是2017年4月版也就是說這個綱領有8年沒有修正你覺得這樣合理嗎像日本我記得是3年就檢討一次另外對阿這個沒有更新阿院長你怎麼說還是你覺得8年前到現在都適用8年前沒有發生惡霧戰爭喔"},{"start":1565.919,"end":1577.551,"text":"我們現在很多的世界大廠來台灣設廠都指定要用綠電那我們如果沒有發展這個綠電的話我們跟世界接不上門我們現在發展的方向是對的我們過去的發展方向是對的"},{"start":1588.983,"end":1599.801,"text":"但因應這個情勢要隨時激動作討論我想我們都會進行那院長我在問經濟部已經編列了60億的核酸除疫費用所以代表明年你們就確定完全排除核能這個選項嗎"},{"start":1602.93,"end":1631.945,"text":"是嗎核能的部分我們是這樣的就是說先先把這個預算編列因為站到目前的這個法令他還是要要下載所以你還是模糊不清當渣男講不清楚到底要還是不要因為委員你這句話有修正的必要我們不是渣男我是說在能源政策上面要不要不講清楚就說我先編了然後到時候再看狀況因為這個是法令的規定我們一定要編"},{"start":1633.376,"end":1639.221,"text":"如果法令可以解掉我們就不編了所以你不是說一定要把河山廠廢除囉這個當然是可以討論的議題"},{"start":1642.865,"end":1664.821,"text":"所以你還是沒有確定嘛是不是你只要回答我這件事不是確定的問題這個是在法令的框架之下我們現在沒有辦法回答你我想這個大家都很關心啦其實你以前也有說過河山藏醫藥機已經除役那目前我們沒有一個重新啟動的法源可以來做所以目前無法討論所以有的話你們願意重啟嗎"},{"start":1665.578,"end":1687.666,"text":"那這個要經過社會的討論我們就是說和安和廢跟社會共識是必要三個條件同時存在跟我們產業政策和環境政策影響所及非常的多陳一髮動全身剛剛討論那基本上還是一樣錯誤的能源配比那在這個能源和產業的關係上造成這個供電不穩進而降低廠商的競爭力那我想連黃仁勳也說過語重心長"},{"start":1690.067,"end":1707.397,"text":"穩定供電是台灣最大的挑戰要發展AI對嘛你們也都這樣想嘛所以謝謝其實我很喜歡我看到你們這樣點頭我覺得我是認同可是為什麼不敢做呢但是世界的大廠也紛紛要來台灣可是委員剛剛的時局到現在好像我們產業一直往外走外國不進來我們的物價一直在上升"},{"start":1709.838,"end":1711.921,"text":"那個數字基本上是台積電到美國的這個數據所以它增加出來了"},{"start":1726.997,"end":1753.168,"text":"所以台積電也去設廠了嘛那也是總經理是外移嘛對不對所以阿他就是因為外國的這個要求那除了供電不穩之外電價也連山漲喔所以我想喔這還是會有某種程度的會帶動我們的通貨膨脹會導致百化文就是錠毛效果阿會讓我們物價回不去喔因為你接下來你也不能保證未來要不要再漲嘛因為你說還沒有辦法還沒有辦法到達成本嘛所以我們今天要講的是攤販集中市場"},{"start":1755.666,"end":1757.929,"text":"主要的投手這個核電燃煤燃氣"},{"start":1774.289,"end":1791.542,"text":"都是主要先發投手像中繼後援的像水力風力太陽能這種就是一個一個釋出只剩下救援投手表現不穩定那如果你是球隊總經理那這樣子的配比你怎麼打比賽啊被迫那到時候還沒有考量到國安問題50%的燃氣我們被封鎖了怎麼辦"},{"start":1792.583,"end":1817.597,"text":"好 因為我時間不多 我就先講 我就是要跟你表達這件事情你們的能源政策如果在配比上 不認真的 務實的去檢討你們就是打假球 打假球為什麼還要打因為後面有利益 有財團 是不是在護航誰 這就是民眾的疑問這就是說為了堅持錯誤能源政策 會讓民眾覺得說你是不是就為了貪腐最後我還是想要問 廖委員現在政府對於能源政策不會拿來"},{"start":1818.958,"end":1822.281,"text":"在偏袒哪一個團體哪一個哪一些人不會這樣做你放心謝謝廖委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T15:59:31.353000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T15:59:36.300000+08:00","text":"主席，有請卓榮泰院長及國防部顧立雄部長。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-01T15:59:36.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T15:59:36.880000+08:00","text":"請卓院長還有顧部長備詢。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T15:59:36.880000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T15:59:37.081000+08:00","text":"廖委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T15:59:48.185000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T15:59:53.450000+08:00","text":"院長、部長好，今天我有準備兩個禮物，要請顧立雄部長收下。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T15:59:54.150000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:00:06.883000+08:00","text":"第一個，我們臺灣是蘭花大國，最近南部的鄉親種出了新品種的蘭花，非常的美，叫做「賴清德蘭」，但由於剛出品，我還買不到，所以我就先買了一盆蘭花代替，要先向國防部長致意、送給我們的部長，未來等到我買到「賴清德蘭」的時候，我會再送一盆「賴清德蘭」到部長的辦公室。","quality":0.541},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:00:06.883000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T16:01:26.680000+08:00","text":"另外，我相信我們國軍弟兄是最注重禮節的，雙十節要到了，我也要送一面國旗給我們的國軍弟兄，感謝他們為中華民國付出、保家衛國，也請部長代收，我要說一聲：「國軍弟兄辛苦了，部長也辛苦了。」哪裡。","quality":0.025},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:01:26.680000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:01:42.567000+08:00","text":"好，院長、部長，我想要請問一下，川普有說臺灣的國防預算應該要占GDP的10%，請教一下院長，萬一川普當選了，你們會配合他嗎？","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T16:01:43.008000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:01:54.153000+08:00","text":"國防預算是依照我們國家之需要，就保衛國家安全，那麼我們會就需要的方面來編列相關的預算，絕不是要依附或者是去滿足哪一個數字，這個對我們來講毫無意義。","quality":0.632},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:01:54.153000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T16:01:55.153000+08:00","text":"那萬一他當選，要求臺灣要做到，我們會有辦法嗎？","quality":0.05},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:01:55.153000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T16:01:56.153000+08:00","text":"還是會說我們做不到？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T16:01:56.153000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T16:01:57.153000+08:00","text":"臺灣身為世界民主夥伴國家友好的朋友之一，我們當然有責任要防衛自己的安全，臺海乃至於印太的安全，我們會負起這個責任，但這個是從我們本位做出發的基本的國防要求。","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:01:57.153000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T16:01:58.153000+08:00","text":"換言之就是說不會聽他的嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:01:55.015000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:01:55.976000+08:00","text":"好，院長，那我們是不是就不會聽他的？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:02:24.919000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:02:26.601000+08:00","text":"不會因為他講一句話就要做這件事。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T16:02:26.821000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:02:30.005000+08:00","text":"我們聽我們的以及聽我們的三軍統帥跟國防部的規劃。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:02:30.005000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:02:30.185000+08:00","text":"三軍統帥，好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:02:30.825000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:02:41.256000+08:00","text":"我們明年國防預算已經上看6,740億，已經占GDP的2.45%，所以現在川普的說法要求我們到10%的話，等於是國防預算要達到2兆7。","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:02:42.537000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:02:59.633000+08:00","text":"我在這裡還有包含剛剛送這些東西，就是也要呼籲賴清德總統，大國以仁、小國以智，希望我們的賴總統、我們的三軍統帥可以有智慧的帶領我們中華民國和平穩定的發展，千萬不要變成「清德斯基」喔！","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T16:03:01.014000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:03:04.918000+08:00","text":"委員放心，這個不僅是國策，也是總統率領國家的重要方向。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:03:05.058000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:03:07.921000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝我們的顧部長，可以回座了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:03:10.823000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:03:21.398000+08:00","text":"卓院長，賴清德總統上任前宣示要做100萬戶的社會住宅，其中50萬戶是租金補貼、25萬戶是社會住宅、25萬戶是包租代管的三大方向。","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:03:22.161000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:03:33.544000+08:00","text":"先談租金補貼的部分，我想請教院長，目前內政部使用了不設籍、不追稅、不查稅的方式，現在總共核准了將近66萬戶……是。","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:03:33.544000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:03:48.589000+08:00","text":"今年補助、補貼的金額也超過了265億，所以我是想要問一下院長，現在這樣子是不是代表你們要跟國人報告，你們百萬戶的社會住宅政策在賴清德上任半年就已經達成了66萬戶，對嗎？","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T16:03:48.589000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T16:03:51.145000+08:00","text":"這是租屋補貼的部分，另外我們還繼續在包租代管跟直接興建的過程當中做各項的努力。","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:03:51.145000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:03:53.726000+08:00","text":"所以意思就是說賴清德上任半年已經達成超過50萬戶的社會住宅，是這樣的意思嘛！","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:03:53.846000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:03:53.866000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-01T16:04:06.202000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:04:10.705000+08:00","text":"在百萬戶家庭扶助計畫裡面的三支箭，第三支箭確實是已經達到。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:04:11.286000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:04:13.867000+08:00","text":"所以意思就是說你們已經達標，而且還超標了66萬戶？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-01T16:04:13.867000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T16:04:14.867000+08:00","text":"第三支箭的部分。好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:04:14.408000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:04:25.496000+08:00","text":"不過我想要先請院長看看國土署當初發布的新聞稿，有關300億的中央擴大租金補貼專案，你們國土署的新聞稿怎麼寫的？","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:04:26.516000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:04:36.501000+08:00","text":"當初這個300億的中央擴大補貼方案就是希望掌握市場上大量有效的租約資訊，將透過定期統計公開達成租屋市場透明化。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:04:37.141000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:04:39.583000+08:00","text":"我想請問你們目前有掌握租屋黑市的狀況嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-01T16:04:40.920000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:04:46.305000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我想這個部分大概也是相對很多委員希望知道的，不管是租金補貼或是包租代管……","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:04:46.305000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T16:04:48.086000+08:00","text":"所以是沒有，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-01T16:04:48.086000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:04:52.470000+08:00","text":"有，我們有，我們透過地政資料，現在慢慢的把去識別化的狀態按照縣市地方政府……","quality":0.606},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:04:52.470000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T16:04:53.470000+08:00","text":"所以現在是沒有嘛？有。","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:04:53.470000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T16:04:54.470000+08:00","text":"我發文問過，你們回我說沒有。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-01T16:04:53.490000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:04:56.012000+08:00","text":"按照地區有公布出來相關租金補貼的狀況，但是它是一個區塊的方式，而不是一個一個。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:05:04.519000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:05:28.626000+08:00","text":"好，那我等一下給你看，我想請教院長，你們本來說2025年1月份要公布資料，但是看一下現階段的資訊，根據內政部不動產交易實價查詢服務網，就會發現租賃查詢的實價登錄總共大概只有10.5萬戶，而領補助的戶數跟剛剛說的66萬戶相差了將近55萬戶，這就是現在我們臺灣租屋黑市的現況啊！","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:05:28.626000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:05:30.007000+08:00","text":"請問院長，你對於這樣的成績滿意嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-01T16:05:30.007000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:05:45.017000+08:00","text":"委員，你說法的基準不太一樣，我剛剛跟您報告的是現在領取租金補貼的總共有六十幾萬戶，這些部分在我們地政司裡面都有相關的資料，但是我們已經把它去識別化以後按照地區公布，而且放在我們官網上面。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:05:45.926000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:05:49.790000+08:00","text":"你是說像剛剛我說的中央的網站，不是嗎？","quality":0.529},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-01T16:05:49.890000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:05:51.892000+08:00","text":"我們放在內政部的官網裡面。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:05:52.053000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:05:54.475000+08:00","text":"那為什麼我去文的時候，你跟我說沒有、這不是你們的業務？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:05:54.475000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:05:56.377000+08:00","text":"要不要看一下那個公文？","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:05:57.819000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:06:02.644000+08:00","text":"「租屋黑數研究及統計非本署業管統計權責，無資料提供。","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:06:04.506000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:06:07.549000+08:00","text":"」，你剛剛還說有，下面這就是你們回我的公文啊！","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-01T16:06:09.664000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:06:19.414000+08:00","text":"您現在講的租屋黑數部分，第一個，大概他不是找官方的包租代管或者是經過我們土地租金跟官方申請的部分，有些是個別的部分……","quality":0.796},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:06:19.534000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:06:22.617000+08:00","text":"沒關係，所以你說66萬戶都有掌握，是這樣嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:06:22.617000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T16:06:23.617000+08:00","text":"你可以說66萬……","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-01T16:06:22.617000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:06:26.221000+08:00","text":"是的，因為他們有申請租金補貼的話，我們就知道他大概是誰。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:06:26.221000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T16:06:27.221000+08:00","text":"你都知道在哪裡？是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:06:26.221000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:06:28.363000+08:00","text":"你都知道每個位置在哪裡，然後這個屋主是誰？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-01T16:06:28.363000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T16:06:29.363000+08:00","text":"大致上知道。","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:06:28.363000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:06:29.124000+08:00","text":"那為什麼沒有實價登錄上去？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-01T16:06:32.029000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:06:32.330000+08:00","text":"實價登錄？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-01T16:06:32.330000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:06:35.433000+08:00","text":"沒有，我剛剛跟委員報告的部分，它是一個區塊的方式，而不是……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:06:36.574000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:06:36.854000+08:00","text":"區塊的方式？","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:06:36.954000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:06:37.675000+08:00","text":"那我給你看……","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-01T16:06:37.895000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:06:41.559000+08:00","text":"實價登錄只有在我們買賣房地產上面才會有。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:06:41.679000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:06:45.043000+08:00","text":"租屋的實價登錄……我剛剛有說……租金。","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:06:45.043000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:07:09.875000+08:00","text":"內政部有不動產租金的部分……好，現在我給你看你剛剛說區塊的部分，現在內政部公開透明的方式就是一個區一個中位數，院長請你看，一個區一個中位數，也不知道有沒有電梯、不知道房屋種類、不知道屋齡，連幾坪都不知道，只有把25分位、50分位、75分位公布出來，光看這資料我可不可以說臺北市的房租比新北市還要便宜？","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:07:10.716000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:07:11.896000+08:00","text":"這樣合理嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:07:11.896000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:07:14.602000+08:00","text":"所以我要講的事情……你再辯也沒用啦！","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:07:15.022000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:07:29.035000+08:00","text":"連立法院的預算中心都已經明確指出，我國多數的租屋案件未納入實價登錄，對眾多租屋人口權益保障恐有欠完備，推動租屋市場價格透明化容待精進。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:07:29.035000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:07:32.438000+08:00","text":"我想「容待精進」這4個字都講得很客氣了啦！","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:07:34.320000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:07:36.222000+08:00","text":"所以院長，這樣擴大租金補貼的專案從2022年到2025年預估多少？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T16:07:41.237000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:07:53.120000+08:00","text":"剛剛部長在跟委員報告的過程，112年有效租約的案件大概75%我們都有掌握到它的資訊，那麼在租金透明化的過程當中……","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:07:53.120000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T16:07:54.120000+08:00","text":"沒關係，院長，我現在跳下一題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T16:07:53.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:08:02.322000+08:00","text":"是集中在大學周邊以及每個行政區，我們先做大規模、大街廓、大區域這樣的公布。","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:08:02.482000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:08:03.142000+08:00","text":"好，所以請問2022到2025預估要補貼發出多少錢？","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-01T16:08:07.116000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:08:12.844000+08:00","text":"按照我們現在114年要求行政院補助的部分，大概是有200億左右。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:08:14.410000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:08:18.013000+08:00","text":"為什麼這邊的數字……200億應該是今年，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:08:18.013000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T16:08:19.013000+08:00","text":"我說2022到2025預估……","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-01T16:08:18.013000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:08:20.656000+08:00","text":"我現在說的是114年的部分。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:08:21.396000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:08:23.898000+08:00","text":"對，所以我說2022到2025預估總共要多少？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-01T16:08:25.460000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:08:26.320000+08:00","text":"2022開始到現在為止……對，到2025。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-01T16:08:26.801000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:08:27.982000+08:00","text":"這個比較少一點，大概也是……","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:08:30.244000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:08:30.884000+08:00","text":"好，我跟你說，大概804億啦！","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T16:08:30.884000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T16:08:31.884000+08:00","text":"加起來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-01T16:08:30.884000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:08:33.566000+08:00","text":"沒有，那是加總的部分。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:08:33.947000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:08:34.867000+08:00","text":"對，就是加總，我剛剛就是說加總。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T16:08:34.867000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T16:08:35.867000+08:00","text":"4年加總。","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:08:34.867000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:08:34.867000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:08:34.867000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:08:35.288000+08:00","text":"我就是說加總嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:08:35.368000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:08:35.428000+08:00","text":"我說2022到2025，對吧？","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:08:40.790000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:08:44.281000+08:00","text":"至於國家住都中心興建4年的社宅加總工程費用多少？","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:08:45.967000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:08:47.448000+08:00","text":"大概872億啊！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:08:47.448000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:08:56.931000+08:00","text":"我們可以看到租金補貼政策的經費已經逼近我們興建社宅的經費，況且全世界也沒有人會把租金補貼當成社宅來認定，連審計部……","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-01T16:08:57.731000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:09:04.894000+08:00","text":"報告委員，租金補貼的部分在住宅法裡面確實有明列進去，所以我們認為租金補貼也算是住宅法可以執行的一部分……","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:09:04.894000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T16:09:05.894000+08:00","text":"等一下，抱歉，部長，我還沒問你喔！","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:09:04.994000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:09:11.036000+08:00","text":"我剛剛已經說50萬戶我也算進去，我只是把全世界沒有人這樣講的補進去而已。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-01T16:09:11.036000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T16:09:12.116000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:09:12.116000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:09:23.248000+08:00","text":"所以連審計部111年的決算報告都曾經指出問題，直接寫租賃市場產生租屋黑市或地下化的問題，所以導致中央地方機關雖然積極推動租金補貼等協助措施，卻無法確實發揮效益。","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:09:29.374000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:09:37.660000+08:00","text":"也就是說現在黑市不解決，補助就沒有辦法實質發揮效益，甚至還發生溢領的狀況，發生溢領一億多喔！","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:09:38.521000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:09:42.223000+08:00","text":"那請問賴清德居住正義補貼50萬戶是為了湊數字呢？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:09:43.024000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:09:44.825000+08:00","text":"還是要促進租屋市場透明？","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:09:45.706000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:09:50.129000+08:00","text":"院長，我要講的是新青安政策也是狂撒幣，但是撒下去之後就出問題了。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:09:51.029000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:10:03.436000+08:00","text":"院長，我也很擔憂你的租金補貼政策會不會跟新青安一樣，為了達到居住正義的目的，反而手段不正義，欠缺通盤規劃，導致我們國家的住宅政策一團混亂？","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-01T16:10:03.436000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T16:10:05.235000+08:00","text":"報告委員……","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T16:10:05.235000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:10:08.496000+08:00","text":"這個是百萬租屋家庭支持計畫方案的一部分……","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:10:08.496000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T16:10:10.356000+08:00","text":"當然，我們後面還要討論社宅……","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T16:10:10.356000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:10:16.737000+08:00","text":"我們設定它是50萬戶，現在因為市場反映大家的需求，所以到六十幾萬戶……","quality":0.759},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:10:16.737000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:10:18.258000+08:00","text":"報告院長，這三個方向我都很清楚，我繼續問……","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T16:10:18.258000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:10:24.799000+08:00","text":"未來我們也希望不要它再毫無限制的一直往上增加，我們重點還是要放在直接興建跟包租代管。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:10:26.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:10:29.560000+08:00","text":"謝謝，你要直接興建和包租代管嘛，好，我們現在講興建社宅的部分。","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:10:30.320000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:10:41.473000+08:00","text":"請教院長，賴清德總統說要蓋25萬戶社宅，目前由中央興建完工並且已經可以招租的才總共4,767戶……","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-01T16:10:42.554000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:10:42.694000+08:00","text":"三萬多戶。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:10:42.694000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:10:44.375000+08:00","text":"扣掉……這是完工已經可以供招租的喔！","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-01T16:10:44.375000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T16:10:45.375000+08:00","text":"三萬多戶。","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:10:44.555000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:10:45.816000+08:00","text":"這是你們網路上的數字喔！","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-01T16:10:46.156000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:10:47.417000+08:00","text":"沒有，是三萬多戶。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:10:47.837000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:10:49.318000+08:00","text":"你說三萬多戶是可以出租的？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-01T16:10:49.318000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T16:10:50.318000+08:00","text":"是的，全臺灣……","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:10:50.178000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:10:51.199000+08:00","text":"已經出去了嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-01T16:10:51.199000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:10:53.640000+08:00","text":"已經有的，像林口的話，幾乎都是滿租的狀況。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:10:54.121000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:10:58.083000+08:00","text":"三萬多戶是包括地方政府，我現在講的是中央政府興建且完工的喔！","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:10:58.543000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:11:00.724000+08:00","text":"你要講清楚，你要看一下數字嗎？是。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:11:00.724000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T16:11:04.203000+08:00","text":"好，你們興建完工而且可以招租的，扣掉林口選手村的話，其實也才一千八百多戶，你現在說的沒錯，中央有在興建中，可是我講的是完工的，並且已經可以供招租。","quality":0.138},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:11:04.203000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:11:07.724000+08:00","text":"蔡英文8年加上賴清德半年總共不到兩千戶的成績，人民要怎麼相信你8年內能蓋完25萬戶？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:11:07.724000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:11:08.864000+08:00","text":"所以我想問一下，現在住都中心接下來要蓋多少戶？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-01T16:11:28.320000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:11:35.502000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我們希望中央跟地方一起努力，到2032年之前可以完成25萬戶。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:11:35.502000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:11:38.623000+08:00","text":"所以你的25萬戶不是只有中央興建，是要把地方都納進來，對不對？","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-01T16:11:38.743000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:11:42.364000+08:00","text":"因為我們當時在協調地方時，中央的國土署也有協助。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:11:42.844000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:11:50.327000+08:00","text":"我也想問你，我也查了你們的資料，截至今年5月，你們盤點總計219處的土地，總共只有七萬一千多戶，你們盤點的土地只有七萬多戶，剩下的十八萬戶要蓋在哪？","quality":0.873},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:11:55.813000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:11:57.515000+08:00","text":"是要填海造陸嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:11:58.475000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:11:59.977000+08:00","text":"現在夠了嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:11:59.977000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:12:02.219000+08:00","text":"盤點地方的這些土地夠嗎？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-01T16:12:02.219000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:12:17.193000+08:00","text":"是，跟委員報告，我們現在當然在盤點土地當中，而且希望能夠有多元的管道，我們希望透過每個縣市地方政府的都市計畫，在未來做區段徵收時釋放出3%到5%的土地供我們興建社會住宅。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:12:17.673000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:12:24.016000+08:00","text":"好，我在這裡要提醒你，如果沒有規劃的話，我想你們的社會住宅政策也會跟租金補貼政策一樣，兜數字畫大餅……","quality":0.822},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-01T16:12:24.036000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:12:29.698000+08:00","text":"目前為止，我們在中央的興建速度還算可以，但是地方已經都沒有那麼快了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:12:29.898000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:12:40.382000+08:00","text":"沒問題，院長，你的部長非常有信心，所以我這裡也準備了一個承諾支票，你願不願意簽下這張承諾支票，宣示賴清德總統一定會達到25萬戶的決心？","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-01T16:12:40.382000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T16:12:42.496000+08:00","text":"如果100萬戶的話，我想不是住宅，就是百萬租屋……","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:12:42.496000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:12:51.218000+08:00","text":"我這裡寫了25萬戶，就是依照你們的50萬，25萬、25萬，可以嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:12:51.218000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:12:52.959000+08:00","text":"你們可以簽嗎？院長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T16:12:52.959000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:12:57.222000+08:00","text":"我們在113年底希望能夠達到20萬戶，到現在為止，社宅有18萬戶……","quality":0.652},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:12:58.422000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:12:59.583000+08:00","text":"院長，你願不願意簽這個承諾支票？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T16:13:03.025000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:13:12.431000+08:00","text":"我覺得政府的政策是用在施政報告跟預算書上面來呈現的，而不是用一種簽名的方式，過去到現在都是這樣進行。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:13:12.931000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:13:17.394000+08:00","text":"換言之就是院長你沒辦法保證你會達標，你可能會跳票的意思？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T16:13:18.130000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:13:19.331000+08:00","text":"那張是……那個簽名……","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-01T16:13:19.331000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T16:13:21.193000+08:00","text":"這沒有意義啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T16:13:21.193000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:13:23.315000+08:00","text":"對我們政策的推動沒有任何特別的意義……","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:13:23.315000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:13:26.319000+08:00","text":"原來我們的院長完全不敢為賴清德的承諾背書啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:13:26.839000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:13:30.022000+08:00","text":"所謂100萬戶的社宅，25萬戶可不可以蓋成？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T16:13:30.163000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:13:31.444000+08:00","text":"你這樣直接的說法是您的想法啦！","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:13:31.864000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:13:32.325000+08:00","text":"我覺得這樣會變口號之國啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T16:13:35.408000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:13:39.211000+08:00","text":"對於總統的政見我們在全力的推動，這是我們對政策的負責。","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:13:39.611000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:13:47.057000+08:00","text":"院長，我在這裡就是要代表關心居住正義的年輕人，想要問你願不願意簽這個承諾，所以你現在不願意簽，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T16:13:47.057000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:13:50.360000+08:00","text":"我們在政策上已經講得很清楚，我們往這個方向一直在努力。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:13:51.201000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:13:55.104000+08:00","text":"好，所以你就是不願意簽，沒問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:13:55.104000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:13:59.727000+08:00","text":"我想這真的令人非常的遺憾，你們民進黨政府在居住正義上面負了年輕人。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-01T16:14:00.795000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:14:08.762000+08:00","text":"委員，如果您真正關心租金補貼的話，其實我們過去兩年租金補貼在青年滿意度是70%以上……","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:14:08.982000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:14:12.165000+08:00","text":"我沒有說租金補貼怎麼樣，我是說你的政策目標沒有達成……","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-01T16:14:12.165000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T16:14:13.165000+08:00","text":"現在時間還沒有到啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:14:13.145000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:14:15.387000+08:00","text":"租金補貼拿到錢，大家當然都很快樂啊！","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:14:15.927000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:14:17.588000+08:00","text":"但是黑市問題沒解決啊！","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T16:14:17.588000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T16:14:20.330000+08:00","text":"我們一直在努力進行當中。","quality":0.091},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:14:20.330000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:14:28.056000+08:00","text":"好，院長，最後我聊聊居住正義三箭，你們剛剛的三箭我都清楚，所以你一直在那邊兜數字，你根本是在瞎扯淡，我明明就說……","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-01T16:14:28.056000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T16:14:29.056000+08:00","text":"不是，委員可能您誤解了……","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:14:28.056000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:14:29.077000+08:00","text":"不是，我明明就說50萬戶，你們租屋補貼到66萬戶，可是黑市問題沒有解決……","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-01T16:14:35.585000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:14:40.748000+08:00","text":"您現在講的是一般的租屋市場，不是我們現在租金補貼上的補貼對象。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:14:41.508000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:15:02.801000+08:00","text":"我們現在討論的居住正義是政府有責任要給人民可負擔的、有保障的、多元的居住選擇權利，我們剛剛講的居住正義三階段，社宅蓋的速度不夠，所以現在社宅有限；租屋市場不透明，租金也有可能隨著這樣來上漲；房價門檻更高到讓年輕人難以跨越。","quality":0.804},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:15:03.983000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:15:11.471000+08:00","text":"大家可以看一下我們的簡報，現在的居住正義是這樣的，社宅、租屋到購屋已經是完全失衡了。","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:15:12.432000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:15:14.514000+08:00","text":"我想要請問一下，有沒有第四種可能性？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:15:15.893000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:15:23.739000+08:00","text":"政府目前在土地的盤點上，除了興建社宅之外，有沒有思考另外一種中間型的住宅方案？","quality":0.861},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:15:24.739000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:15:37.689000+08:00","text":"包括半永久式的或者是類似青年可負擔宅的規劃，就是類似新加坡組屋的模式，同時具備長期居住，然後封閉市場可負擔的條件，請問我們有沒有這樣的規劃？","quality":0.908},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-01T16:15:38.890000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:15:53.446000+08:00","text":"報告委員，其實各種的規劃，包括你所說的，不管是英國的或者是新加坡的，我們都有在考慮當中，但是在臺灣，一般人是安土重遷的狀況之下，他們當然希望社會住宅能夠住得越久越好、變成他們永久的租屋市場，不像現在是6年。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-01T16:15:54.367000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:15:56.530000+08:00","text":"所以我們也在考慮，除了年輕人以外，包括中高齡的老齡人口所需要的社會住宅也都需要考慮在內。對。","quality":0.357},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-01T16:15:56.530000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T16:15:57.530000+08:00","text":"所以我們希望中央政府跟地方政府都要一起努力，但是現在很不樂見的就是地方政府願意釋放出的土地比較少。","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:15:56.990000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:15:57.951000+08:00","text":"部長，謝謝你，我想要表達的是，我支持這樣的方向。謝謝。","quality":0.682},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:15:57.991000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:16:21.810000+08:00","text":"我也希望剛才說的，多元的、可負擔的、可以保障的，然後請往這些方向去推動。","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-01T16:16:21.810000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T16:16:22.810000+08:00","text":"我們有在考慮，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:16:21.810000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:16:30.103000+08:00","text":"我自己也做了許多研究，未來有機會也希望可以多多交流，我們都希望可以推成這件事情，可以嗎？謝謝。","quality":0.881},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:16:30.444000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:16:50.799000+08:00","text":"我還是要講，居住正義不是大撒幣的湊數字而已，要促進市場透明，要完善整體的機制，留下一個可以具體、可以長期運作的制度給我們的下一代，這是我認為的居住正義，希望我們未來的4年或未來的任期可以好好的推動，把這個居住正義留給我們的下一代，讓他們可以住得起房，好不好？","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:16:51.060000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:17:09.205000+08:00","text":"再來，最近有很多民眾收到電價調漲的電費單，不僅一般住戶抱怨，甚至南臺灣有串燒店因為抱怨店裡「電費破紀錄、創新高，真是謝了」、「綠色是最噁心的顏色」，然後這個店家就被出征了。","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:17:09.725000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:17:15.869000+08:00","text":"請問院長，電價高漲是事實，但是現在連老百姓抱怨都會被出征，你不覺得很恐怖嗎？","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:17:15.869000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:17:51.063000+08:00","text":"院長，我是覺得，年年漲電價是一件非常恐怖的事情，老百姓跟店家的抱怨其實不是沒有道理，你也知道我們的民生用電已經連續3年調漲，累計已經漲了30.4%；工業用電已經連續三次調漲，再加上昨天的第四波，就已經來到了66.27%，你的官邸有公務預算可以支應，但是國內這些產業用電可是要列為成本的，3年漲了66.27%，請問院長，有多少產業扛得住啊？","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T16:17:53.065000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:17:59.950000+08:00","text":"這次電價審議委員會在討論的過程當中，我知道他們把握的一個原則，就是反映成本……","quality":0.829},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:17:59.950000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T16:18:00.950000+08:00","text":"有，你提的這個我昨天都看了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T16:18:00.491000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:18:06.516000+08:00","text":"我們必須讓台電的成本適度地反映出來，所以這個是接近成本的一個計算。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:18:06.656000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:18:08.017000+08:00","text":"院長，我要跟您反映，現在民生電價連三漲，百姓苦哈哈；工業電價連四漲，產業慘兮兮。","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:18:16.023000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:18:46.771000+08:00","text":"但是這三年漲電價的同時，我們經濟部也已在前年增資台電1,500億；去年疫後特別條例預算又撥補了500億；6月的時候，經濟部又增資台電1,000億，這樣一來就已經補貼3,000億了；現在又希望立法院通過2,000億的補貼預算，加起來總共是5,000億，台電左手跟人民漲電價，右手拿人民納給政府的稅金，5,000億的補貼全部都是老百姓的錢。","quality":0.845},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:18:47.958000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:19:00.901000+08:00","text":"現在你們嘴巴上說尊重立法院的決定，但是一邊漲電價，一邊又要立法院通過這些預算來補貼台電，看在老百姓的眼裡，這不只是情緒勒索，應該是真的在勒索！","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:19:02.321000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:19:11.383000+08:00","text":"經濟部昨天有說，這次調漲電價有兩個原則，就是你剛剛有說到的，一個是照顧民生、穩定電價、穩定物價；另外一個是兼顧產業競爭力。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:19:12.123000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:19:25.460000+08:00","text":"但是有學者就說，這是經濟部自己在騙自己，因為這一次的調漲，生產成本會再度上升，很難消弭民眾對於物價上漲的預期心理。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:19:26.581000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:19:43.127000+08:00","text":"再者，所謂兼顧產業競爭力，連三三會的林伯豐會長也都說這次漲價會導致企業獲利減少大概5%；廠商可能會外移或關廠，進而影響勞動市場；接下來無薪假、裁員的情況會更多。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:19:43.948000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:19:45.588000+08:00","text":"院長，你能保證明年不再漲電價嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:19:45.588000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:19:45.889000+08:00","text":"我想問的是這個。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T16:19:48.830000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:20:07.318000+08:00","text":"今年我們看到戰爭之後原物料上漲，所以在取得成本上，經過核實計算與使用者付費的原則下，讓工業用戶、比較大的用電戶能夠反映成本，這是電價審議委員會通過的原則。","quality":0.845},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:20:07.318000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:20:09.999000+08:00","text":"現在的能源政策問題就是成本太高，對不對？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:20:10.960000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:20:12.361000+08:00","text":"您願不願意承諾明年不會漲電價，院長？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2024-10-01T16:20:14.786000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:20:18.148000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我們這次所漲的電價，經過計算……","quality":0.706},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:20:18.148000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:20:19.028000+08:00","text":"請回答我，可不可以保證？","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:20:19.028000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:20:20.689000+08:00","text":"沒關係，請回答我可不可以保證？","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:20:20.689000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:20:22.609000+08:00","text":"你們剛剛講的這些我昨天都有看，我知道，請問明年可以保證不漲電價嗎？","quality":0.567},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2024-10-01T16:20:23.310000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:20:32.674000+08:00","text":"對我們CPI的影響只有0.03%，所以講說會造成什麼樣的經濟波動，但我們認為這個都是計算過的。","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:20:32.674000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T16:20:33.674000+08:00","text":"有關0.03%這點等一下再講。","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:20:33.194000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:20:36.576000+08:00","text":"院長，既然健保費可以保障明年不漲，請問電費可以保障嗎？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:20:36.576000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:20:36.696000+08:00","text":"不敢講？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T16:20:38.332000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:20:44.195000+08:00","text":"我也不能保證明年軍公教會不會調漲，因為這要衡酌很多的社會經濟條件，我們必須……","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:20:44.195000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T16:20:45.596000+08:00","text":"我們現在是在討論能源政策……","quality":0.083},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T16:20:45.596000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:20:49.798000+08:00","text":"在權衡之下才能做決定，不是現在就在預估明年漲不漲。","quality":0.783},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:20:49.798000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:20:51.919000+08:00","text":"所以沒關係，就是不能夠保證，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:20:52.499000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:20:53.820000+08:00","text":"也因此我們才要靜下來進一步討論……","quality":0.533},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T16:20:53.980000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:20:55.601000+08:00","text":"這種保證太廉價，也沒有意義。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:20:56.161000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:20:58.483000+08:00","text":"好，所以我們進一步來討論。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:20:58.483000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:21:16.015000+08:00","text":"賴總統所推動的五大信賴產業，大概少數高毛利的電子產業或許還可以撐，可是大部分的傳產，譬如地方上很多的中小企業、工具機產業、旅宿業者，甚至媒體也報導，電價再漲下去，年底可能會倒一片，恐怕會有一波停業潮。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:21:16.856000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:21:25.226000+08:00","text":"這些業主還自嘲，自己就是不受信賴產業，這就是這段時間人民的心聲，我幫大家反映出來。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:21:25.947000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:21:32.437000+08:00","text":"現在工廠、公司停業，人民失業，但是老百姓抱怨一下就要被出征，這樣合理嗎？","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:21:33.768000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:21:37.171000+08:00","text":"你剛剛有說要穩定民生所以民生電價不漲，這點我認同。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:21:38.332000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:21:48.519000+08:00","text":"不過工業電價漲12.5%，累積到現在已經漲了66.27%，然後你昨天說、剛剛部長也有說，衝擊為0.03%，對不對？","quality":0.78},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:21:49.460000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:21:59.528000+08:00","text":"我剛剛說這是你們算出來的，可是你有沒有算到我剛剛已經講過的，也就是《經濟學人》中學者所提出，民眾會有漲價的預期心理，請問這部分要怎麼處理？","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:21:59.808000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:22:00.328000+08:00","text":"這是第一件事。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:22:01.329000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:22:07.598000+08:00","text":"況且很多官方數據統計都是低估的，何況0.03%指的是今年，請問到明年呢？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:22:08.439000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:22:10.582000+08:00","text":"你敢說到明年這個時間不會超過0.03%，對不對？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:22:10.582000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:22:15.048000+08:00","text":"還是我們就等到明年再來看看到底是不是0.03%？","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2024-10-01T16:22:17.599000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:22:34.398000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我想我們這一次……您剛才指導小企業或中型企業、比較艱苦的企業，我們會有兩個方式來幫助他們，一個就是推動AI；另外一個就是推動低碳化。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2024-10-01T16:22:34.398000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T16:22:44.519000+08:00","text":"也就是說我們會做深度的節能，而深度節能大概可以幫助降低7%的用電，我想用這個方法來提升他們的競爭力，如此才會有辦法走向競爭的環境。","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:22:44.519000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T16:22:54.640000+08:00","text":"謝謝部長，這是另外一件事……","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2024-10-01T16:22:54.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:22:55.281000+08:00","text":"如果光在電價補助，這個對我們來講……","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:22:55.621000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:22:57.342000+08:00","text":"這部分可不可以請你會後提供報告給我？","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:22:57.722000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:23:09.889000+08:00","text":"的確，我認同這個方向，我沒有不認同，我覺得這個方向是對的，但我討論的還是電價問題和能源政策問題，畢竟你剛剛所講那些東西是需要時間累積的。","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:23:12.390000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:23:18.314000+08:00","text":"簡單來講，短時間內漲這些東西會導致一些企業出走或倒閉，請問你們有估算過嗎？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:23:20.209000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:23:21.150000+08:00","text":"我給你們看一個數據，這是投審會的數據、官方資料。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:23:21.650000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:23:28.057000+08:00","text":"我國對外投資從99億美金大增到235.7億美金，漲幅達2.38倍；至於外國人願意來臺投資的，從133億美金掉到112億，一來一回大概淨流出123.7億美金。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:23:45.049000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:23:55.604000+08:00","text":"這些數據活生生代表現在的確有很多產業往海外設廠，因為他擔心臺灣任何的不穩定，所以逼著他出去。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:23:56.245000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:24:00.491000+08:00","text":"基本上他們現在的狀況就是面臨兩條路：要嘛我收掉、賣掉；第二個就是出國，可以到別的國家投資。","quality":0.575},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:24:00.491000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T16:24:01.491000+08:00","text":"不過這也代表了資金與人才的出走，所以我是在表達我的憂慮！","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:24:01.491000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T16:24:02.491000+08:00","text":"數據會說話，這數據就是很簡單又很明白的數據，我希望說……對於漲電價，我最後還是要問：漲電價有解決根本問題嗎？","quality":0.043},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:24:02.491000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T16:24:03.491000+08:00","text":"還是只解決台電的財務？","quality":0.1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T16:24:01.872000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:24:26.663000+08:00","text":"電價調整對於台電的營運、財務的健全有幫忙；在漲電價的同時，我們也會透過經濟部節約用電團隊去幫各個用電大戶來執行他的節約用電，這是降低他的成本。","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T16:24:26.663000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T16:24:31.830500+08:00","text":"剛剛你所說的穩定物價，這次對住宅、小商店都沒有增加他的負擔，民生內需也沒有增加負擔。","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:24:31.830500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T16:24:36.998000+08:00","text":"院長，我就歸根結柢，這些問題原因還是出在能源政策啦，外界就批評說我們是錯誤能源政策，想請教院長，我更想請教的就是我們有能源政策嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T16:24:36.998000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:25:07.987000+08:00","text":"我們就是發展綠能，而且能夠多方面的引進新的能源的概念……","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:25:07.987000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T16:25:08.987000+08:00","text":"好，院長，我給你看一個資料，你們行政院……","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T16:25:08.567000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:25:10.608000+08:00","text":"用天然氣來做橋接，這是我們一貫的……","quality":0.533},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:25:11.488000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:25:19.431000+08:00","text":"行政院核定的能源發展綱領是2017年4月版，也就是說這個綱領有8年沒有修正了，你覺得這樣合理嗎？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:25:19.431000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:25:27.975000+08:00","text":"像日本，我記得是3年就檢討一次，對啊，這個沒有更新啊，院長，你怎麼說？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:25:27.975000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:25:29.515000+08:00","text":"還是你覺得8年前到現在都適用？","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:25:30.075000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:25:30.716000+08:00","text":"8年前沒有發生俄烏戰爭喔！","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T16:25:32.460000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:25:36.784000+08:00","text":"現在很多世界大廠來臺灣設廠都指定要用綠電，我們如果……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:25:36.784000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T16:25:37.784000+08:00","text":"院長，這兩件事！","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T16:25:37.605000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:25:40.468000+08:00","text":"我們如果沒有發展綠電的話，我們跟世界接不上軌。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:25:40.468000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T16:25:41.468000+08:00","text":"院長，我沒有說不發展綠電，但我要說的是你的這個發展綱領都沒有更新啊……","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T16:25:40.688000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:25:42.530000+08:00","text":"我們現在發展的方向是對的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:25:42.530000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T16:25:43.530000+08:00","text":"是不是代表新政府還沒有自己的能源政策？","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:25:43.530000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T16:25:44.530000+08:00","text":"還是只是說大家想要綠能，我就要瘋狂蓋，比例到底是多少？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T16:25:42.730000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:25:59.270000+08:00","text":"我們過去的發展方向是對的，但因應這個情勢要隨時機動做討論，我想我們都會進行。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:25:59.631000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:26:09.870000+08:00","text":"院長，我再問喔，經濟部已經編列了60億的核三除役費用，所以代表明年你們確定要完全排除核能這個選項嗎？是嗎？","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2024-10-01T16:26:09.870000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:26:19.255000+08:00","text":"核能的部分，我們是這樣的，就是先把預算編列，因為按照目前的法令，它還是要下載。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:26:19.255000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:26:23.377000+08:00","text":"所以你還是模糊不清、當渣男、講不清楚到底要還是不要？","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2024-10-01T16:26:24.778000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:26:29.420000+08:00","text":"委員，你這句話有修正的必要，我們不是渣男。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:26:29.921000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:26:35.563000+08:00","text":"我是說在能源政策上面要、不要不講清楚，就是說我先編了，然後到時候再看狀況囉！","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2024-10-01T16:26:35.563000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:26:41.338000+08:00","text":"因為這個是法令的規定，我們一定要編，如果法令可以解掉，我們就不編了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:26:41.958000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:26:44.620000+08:00","text":"所以你不是一定要把核三廠廢除囉？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2024-10-01T16:26:44.620000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:26:45.221000+08:00","text":"這個當然是可以討論的議題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:26:48.865000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:26:50.606000+08:00","text":"所以你還是沒有確定嘛，是不是？","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:26:50.726000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:26:51.567000+08:00","text":"你只要回答我這件事。","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2024-10-01T16:26:51.707000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:26:53.128000+08:00","text":"不是，不是確定的問題，這個是在法令……","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:26:53.128000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T16:26:54.128000+08:00","text":"我想大家都很關心啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2024-10-01T16:26:53.268000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:26:58.032000+08:00","text":"在法令的框架之下，我們現在沒有辦法回答你這個問題。","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:26:58.352000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:27:01.414000+08:00","text":"沒關係，部長，我想這個大家都很關心啦，其實你以前也有說過核能有必要嘛……","quality":0.645},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T16:27:02.415000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:27:09.199000+08:00","text":"這個跟委員報告，我們核三廠1號機已經除役，目前我們沒有一個重新啟動的法源可以來做，所以目前無法討論這件事。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:27:09.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:27:10.821000+08:00","text":"如果有的話，你們願意重啟嗎？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T16:27:11.858000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:27:17.580000+08:00","text":"這個要經過社會的討論，我們的意思是說，核安、核廢跟社會共識是必要三個條件同時存在。","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:27:18.160000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:27:25.903000+08:00","text":"院長，能源政策跟我們的產業政策和環境政策影響所及非常的多，牽一髮動全身，剛剛討論過了，基本上還是一樣，錯誤的能源配比。","quality":0.811},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:27:26.624000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:27:39.289000+08:00","text":"在能源和產業的關係上造成供電不穩，進而降低廠商的競爭力，我想連黃仁勳也說過，語重心長啊，穩定供電是臺灣最大的挑戰，要發展AI……","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T16:27:39.289000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T16:27:40.289000+08:00","text":"我贊成！","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:27:39.729000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:27:45.132000+08:00","text":"對嘛，你們也都這樣想嘛，所以謝謝，其實我很喜歡，我看到你們這樣點頭，我覺得是認同的，可是為什麼不敢做呢？","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T16:27:45.693000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:27:52.956000+08:00","text":"但是世界的大廠也紛紛要來臺灣，可是委員剛剛的質詢到現在，好像我們的產業一直往外走，外國不進來，我們的物價一直……","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:27:52.956000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T16:27:53.956000+08:00","text":"沒有，我是用數據講話喔！","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T16:27:53.956000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T16:27:54.956000+08:00","text":"我們的物價一直在上升，所以你要讓我們把話講清楚，否則就停留在不是很正確的狀態裡面啊！","quality":0.077},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:27:54.956000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T16:27:55.956000+08:00","text":"可是我用的數據都拿出來給你看了啊，如果你覺得有疑義，你覺得有更好的數據提供，你可以在會後提供給我。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2024-10-01T16:27:55.838000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:27:57.901000+08:00","text":"那個數字基本上是台積電到美國的數據，所以它增加出來的。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:28:13.597000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:28:17.019000+08:00","text":"台積電也去設廠了嘛，所以總金額也是外移嘛，對不對？","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2024-10-01T16:28:18.079000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:28:19.320000+08:00","text":"對啊，它就是因為外國的邀請啊！","quality":0.538},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:28:19.940000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:28:36.407000+08:00","text":"除了供電不穩之外，電價也連三漲，所以我想這還是某種程度會帶動我們的通貨膨脹，會導致……白話文就是定錨效果，會讓我們物價回不去，因為接下來你也不能保證未來要不要再漲嘛，因為你說還沒有辦法到達成本，所以我要講的是錯誤的能源配比……","quality":0.814},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T16:28:36.407000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T16:28:39.957500+08:00","text":"所以我們今年攤販集中市場、量販店、超商等等這些，都不會去增加他們的負擔，就是要穩定物價最起碼該有的作為。","quality":0.234},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:28:39.957500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T16:28:43.508000+08:00","text":"院長，我的時間有限，我想要講的就是喔，其實現在從整個邏輯看下來，我認為就是你們的能源政策在打假球啦，主要的……","quality":0.062},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T16:28:43.508000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:28:43.508000+08:00","text":"不是這個樣子！","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:28:43.508000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:29:11.978000+08:00","text":"核電、燃煤、燃氣都是主要先發投手，至於中繼、後援的像是水力、風力、太陽能這種就一個一個釋出，只剩下救援投手表現不穩定，如果你是球隊總經理，這樣子的配比你要怎麼打比賽啊？","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:29:13.980000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:29:17.542000+08:00","text":"還沒有考量到國安問題，50%的燃氣，如果我們被封鎖了要怎麼辦？","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:29:18.783000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:29:28.369000+08:00","text":"因為我的時間不多了，我就是要跟你表達這件事情，你們的能源政策如果在配比上不認真的、務實的去檢討，你們就是打假球！","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:29:28.609000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:29:29.830000+08:00","text":"打假球為什麼還要打？","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:29:30.190000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:29:32.891000+08:00","text":"因為後面有利益、有財團，是不是在護航誰？","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:29:32.891000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:29:34.412000+08:00","text":"這就是民眾的疑問嘛！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:29:35.913000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:29:38.995000+08:00","text":"堅持錯誤的能源政策會讓民眾覺得你是不是就為了貪腐？","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:29:39.595000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:29:40.376000+08:00","text":"最後，我還是想要問，院長，你覺得健保點值0.95……","quality":0.444},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T16:29:40.676000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:29:48.021000+08:00","text":"報告委員，現在的政府對於能源政策不會拿來用在偏袒哪一個團體或哪一些人，不會這樣做，你放心。","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:29:48.021000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T16:29:49.021000+08:00","text":"院長，健保點值0.95元，你們到底有沒有信心達到？","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:29:49.021000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T16:29:50.021000+08:00","text":"健保點值0.95。","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T16:29:50.021000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T16:29:51.021000+08:00","text":"這是我們的目標。","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:29:51.021000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T16:29:52.021000+08:00","text":"有沒有信心？","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:29:52.021000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T16:29:53.021000+08:00","text":"早上你跟邱泰源部長好像彼此不同調。","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T16:29:53.021000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T16:29:54.021000+08:00","text":"我們的目標相同，路徑共同努力。","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:29:54.021000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T16:29:55.021000+08:00","text":"所以還是沒有辦法保證？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-01T16:29:55.021000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T16:29:56.021000+08:00","text":"一齊努力啦。","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-10-01T16:29:56.021000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T16:29:57.021000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-01T16:29:48.141000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-01T16:29:48.281000+08:00","text":"謝謝廖委員，謝謝卓院長。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-01T16:29:48.781000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-01T16:29:51.923857+08:00","text":"下一位請許宇甄委員質詢。","quality":0}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-01T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"15:59:26 - 16:30:08","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第2次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","gazette":{"lineno":1407,"blocks":[["廖委員偉翔：（15時59分）主席，有請卓榮泰院長及國防部顧立雄部長。"],["主席：請卓院長還有顧部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：廖委員好。"],["廖委員偉翔：院長、部長好，今天我有準備兩個禮物，要請顧立雄部長收下。第一個，我們臺灣是蘭花大國，最近南部的鄉親種出了新品種的蘭花，非常的美，叫做「賴清德蘭」，但由於剛出品，我還買不到，所以我就先買了一盆蘭花代替，要先向國防部長致意、送給我們的部長，未來等到我買到「賴清德蘭」的時候，我會再送一盆「賴清德蘭」到部長的辦公室。另外，我相信我們國軍弟兄是最注重禮節的，雙十節要到了，我也要送一面國旗給我們的國軍弟兄，感謝他們為中華民國付出、保家衛國，也請部長代收，我要說一聲：「國軍弟兄辛苦了，部長也辛苦了。」"],["顧部長立雄：哪裡。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，院長、部長，我想要請問一下，川普有說臺灣的國防預算應該要占GDP的10%，請教一下院長，萬一川普當選了，你們會配合他嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：國防預算是依照我們國家之需要，就保衛國家安全，那麼我們會就需要的方面來編列相關的預算，絕不是要依附或者是去滿足哪一個數字，這個對我們來講毫無意義。"],["廖委員偉翔：那萬一他當選，要求臺灣要做到，我們會有辦法嗎？還是會說我們做不到？"],["卓院長榮泰：臺灣身為世界民主夥伴國家友好的朋友之一，我們當然有責任要防衛自己的安全，臺海乃至於印太的安全，我們會負起這個責任，但這個是從我們本位做出發的基本的國防要求。"],["廖委員偉翔：換言之就是說不會聽他的嘛！好，院長，那我們是不是就不會聽他的？不會因為他講一句話就要做這件事。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們聽我們的以及聽我們的三軍統帥跟國防部的規劃。"],["廖委員偉翔：三軍統帥，好。我們明年國防預算已經上看6,740億，已經占GDP的2.45%，所以現在川普的說法要求我們到10%的話，等於是國防預算要達到2兆7。我在這裡還有包含剛剛送這些東西，就是也要呼籲賴清德總統，大國以仁、小國以智，希望我們的賴總統、我們的三軍統帥可以有智慧的帶領我們中華民國和平穩定的發展，千萬不要變成「清德斯基」喔！"],["卓院長榮泰：委員放心，這個不僅是國策，也是總統率領國家的重要方向。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，謝謝我們的顧部長，可以回座了。","卓院長，賴清德總統上任前宣示要做100萬戶的社會住宅，其中50萬戶是租金補貼、25萬戶是社會住宅、25萬戶是包租代管的三大方向。先談租金補貼的部分，我想請教院長，目前內政部使用了不設籍、不追稅、不查稅的方式，現在總共核准了將近66萬戶……"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：今年補助、補貼的金額也超過了265億，所以我是想要問一下院長，現在這樣子是不是代表你們要跟國人報告，你們百萬戶的社會住宅政策在賴清德上任半年就已經達成了66萬戶，對嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這是租屋補貼的部分，另外我們還繼續在包租代管跟直接興建的過程當中做各項的努力。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以意思就是說賴清德上任半年已經達成超過50萬戶的社會住宅，是這樣的意思嘛！對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：在百萬戶家庭扶助計畫裡面的三支箭，第三支箭確實是已經達到。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以意思就是說你們已經達標，而且還超標了66萬戶？"],["劉部長世芳：第三支箭的部分。"],["廖委員偉翔：好。不過我想要先請院長看看國土署當初發布的新聞稿，有關300億的中央擴大租金補貼專案，你們國土署的新聞稿怎麼寫的？當初這個300億的中央擴大補貼方案就是希望掌握市場上大量有效的租約資訊，將透過定期統計公開達成租屋市場透明化。我想請問你們目前有掌握租屋黑市的狀況嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我想這個部分大概也是相對很多委員希望知道的，不管是租金補貼或是包租代管……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以是沒有，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：有，我們有，我們透過地政資料，現在慢慢的把去識別化的狀態按照縣市地方政府……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以現在是沒有嘛？"],["劉部長世芳：有。"],["廖委員偉翔：我發文問過，你們回我說沒有。"],["劉部長世芳：按照地區有公布出來相關租金補貼的狀況，但是它是一個區塊的方式，而不是一個一個。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，那我等一下給你看，我想請教院長，你們本來說2025年1月份要公布資料，但是看一下現階段的資訊，根據內政部不動產交易實價查詢服務網，就會發現租賃查詢的實價登錄總共大概只有10.5萬戶，而領補助的戶數跟剛剛說的66萬戶相差了將近55萬戶，這就是現在我們臺灣租屋黑市的現況啊！請問院長，你對於這樣的成績滿意嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：委員，你說法的基準不太一樣，我剛剛跟您報告的是現在領取租金補貼的總共有六十幾萬戶，這些部分在我們地政司裡面都有相關的資料，但是我們已經把它去識別化以後按照地區公布，而且放在我們官網上面。"],["廖委員偉翔：你是說像剛剛我說的中央的網站，不是嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我們放在內政部的官網裡面。"],["廖委員偉翔：那為什麼我去文的時候，你跟我說沒有、這不是你們的業務？要不要看一下那個公文？「租屋黑數研究及統計非本署業管統計權責，無資料提供。」，你剛剛還說有，下面這就是你們回我的公文啊！"],["劉部長世芳：您現在講的租屋黑數部分，第一個，大概他不是找官方的包租代管或者是經過我們土地租金跟官方申請的部分，有些是個別的部分……"],["廖委員偉翔：沒關係，所以你說66萬戶都有掌握，是這樣嗎？你可以說66萬……"],["劉部長世芳：是的，因為他們有申請租金補貼的話，我們就知道他大概是誰。"],["廖委員偉翔：你都知道在哪裡？"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：你都知道每個位置在哪裡，然後這個屋主是誰？"],["劉部長世芳：大致上知道。"],["廖委員偉翔：那為什麼沒有實價登錄上去？"],["劉部長世芳：實價登錄？沒有，我剛剛跟委員報告的部分，它是一個區塊的方式，而不是……"],["廖委員偉翔：區塊的方式？那我給你看……"],["劉部長世芳：實價登錄只有在我們買賣房地產上面才會有。"],["廖委員偉翔：租屋的實價登錄……我剛剛有說……"],["劉部長世芳：租金。"],["廖委員偉翔：內政部有不動產租金的部分……好，現在我給你看你剛剛說區塊的部分，現在內政部公開透明的方式就是一個區一個中位數，院長請你看，一個區一個中位數，也不知道有沒有電梯、不知道房屋種類、不知道屋齡，連幾坪都不知道，只有把25分位、50分位、75分位公布出來，光看這資料我可不可以說臺北市的房租比新北市還要便宜？這樣合理嗎？所以我要講的事情……你再辯也沒用啦！連立法院的預算中心都已經明確指出，我國多數的租屋案件未納入實價登錄，對眾多租屋人口權益保障恐有欠完備，推動租屋市場價格透明化容待精進。我想「容待精進」這4個字都講得很客氣了啦！所以院長，這樣擴大租金補貼的專案從2022年到2025年預估多少？"],["卓院長榮泰：剛剛部長在跟委員報告的過程，112年有效租約的案件大概75%我們都有掌握到它的資訊，那麼在租金透明化的過程當中……"],["廖委員偉翔：沒關係，院長，我現在跳下一題。"],["卓院長榮泰：是集中在大學周邊以及每個行政區，我們先做大規模、大街廓、大區域這樣的公布。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，所以請問2022到2025預估要補貼發出多少錢？"],["劉部長世芳：按照我們現在114年要求行政院補助的部分，大概是有200億左右。"],["廖委員偉翔：為什麼這邊的數字……200億應該是今年，對不對？我說2022到2025預估……"],["劉部長世芳：我現在說的是114年的部分。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，所以我說2022到2025預估總共要多少？"],["劉部長世芳：2022開始到現在為止……"],["廖委員偉翔：對，到2025。"],["劉部長世芳：這個比較少一點，大概也是……"],["廖委員偉翔：好，我跟你說，大概804億啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：加起來。"],["劉部長世芳：沒有，那是加總的部分。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，就是加總，我剛剛就是說加總。"],["卓院長榮泰：4年加總。"],["廖委員偉翔：對不對？我就是說加總嘛！我說2022到2025，對吧？至於國家住都中心興建4年的社宅加總工程費用多少？大概872億啊！我們可以看到租金補貼政策的經費已經逼近我們興建社宅的經費，況且全世界也沒有人會把租金補貼當成社宅來認定，連審計部……"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，租金補貼的部分在住宅法裡面確實有明列進去，所以我們認為租金補貼也算是住宅法可以執行的一部分……"],["廖委員偉翔：等一下，抱歉，部長，我還沒問你喔！我剛剛已經說50萬戶我也算進去，我只是把全世界沒有人這樣講的補進去而已。"],["劉部長世芳：好，謝謝。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以連審計部111年的決算報告都曾經指出問題，直接寫租賃市場產生租屋黑市或地下化的問題，所以導致中央地方機關雖然積極推動租金補貼等協助措施，卻無法確實發揮效益。也就是說現在黑市不解決，補助就沒有辦法實質發揮效益，甚至還發生溢領的狀況，發生溢領一億多喔！那請問賴清德居住正義補貼50萬戶是為了湊數字呢？還是要促進租屋市場透明？院長，我要講的是新青安政策也是狂撒幣，但是撒下去之後就出問題了。院長，我也很擔憂你的租金補貼政策會不會跟新青安一樣，為了達到居住正義的目的，反而手段不正義，欠缺通盤規劃，導致我們國家的住宅政策一團混亂？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員……"],["卓院長榮泰：這個是百萬租屋家庭支持計畫方案的一部分……"],["廖委員偉翔：當然，我們後面還要討論社宅……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們設定它是50萬戶，現在因為市場反映大家的需求，所以到六十幾萬戶……"],["廖委員偉翔：報告院長，這三個方向我都很清楚，我繼續問……"],["卓院長榮泰：未來我們也希望不要它再毫無限制的一直往上增加，我們重點還是要放在直接興建跟包租代管。"],["廖委員偉翔：謝謝，你要直接興建和包租代管嘛，好，我們現在講興建社宅的部分。請教院長，賴清德總統說要蓋25萬戶社宅，目前由中央興建完工並且已經可以招租的才總共4,767戶……"],["劉部長世芳：三萬多戶。"],["廖委員偉翔：扣掉……這是完工已經可以供招租的喔！"],["劉部長世芳：三萬多戶。"],["廖委員偉翔：這是你們網路上的數字喔！"],["劉部長世芳：沒有，是三萬多戶。"],["廖委員偉翔：你說三萬多戶是可以出租的？"],["劉部長世芳：是的，全臺灣……"],["廖委員偉翔：已經出去了嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：已經有的，像林口的話，幾乎都是滿租的狀況。"],["廖委員偉翔：三萬多戶是包括地方政府，我現在講的是中央政府興建且完工的喔！你要講清楚，你要看一下數字嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，你們興建完工而且可以招租的，扣掉林口選手村的話，其實也才一千八百多戶，你現在說的沒錯，中央有在興建中，可是我講的是完工的，並且已經可以供招租。蔡英文8年加上賴清德半年總共不到兩千戶的成績，人民要怎麼相信你8年內能蓋完25萬戶？所以我想問一下，現在住都中心接下來要蓋多少戶？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們希望中央跟地方一起努力，到2032年之前可以完成25萬戶。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以你的25萬戶不是只有中央興建，是要把地方都納進來，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：因為我們當時在協調地方時，中央的國土署也有協助。"],["廖委員偉翔：我也想問你，我也查了你們的資料，截至今年5月，你們盤點總計219處的土地，總共只有七萬一千多戶，你們盤點的土地只有七萬多戶，剩下的十八萬戶要蓋在哪？是要填海造陸嗎？現在夠了嗎？盤點地方的這些土地夠嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：是，跟委員報告，我們現在當然在盤點土地當中，而且希望能夠有多元的管道，我們希望透過每個縣市地方政府的都市計畫，在未來做區段徵收時釋放出3%到5%的土地供我們興建社會住宅。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，我在這裡要提醒你，如果沒有規劃的話，我想你們的社會住宅政策也會跟租金補貼政策一樣，兜數字畫大餅……"],["劉部長世芳：目前為止，我們在中央的興建速度還算可以，但是地方已經都沒有那麼快了。"],["廖委員偉翔：沒問題，院長，你的部長非常有信心，所以我這裡也準備了一個承諾支票，你願不願意簽下這張承諾支票，宣示賴清德總統一定會達到25萬戶的決心？"],["劉部長世芳：如果100萬戶的話，我想不是住宅，就是百萬租屋……"],["廖委員偉翔：我這裡寫了25萬戶，就是依照你們的50萬，25萬、25萬，可以嗎？你們可以簽嗎？院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們在113年底希望能夠達到20萬戶，到現在為止，社宅有18萬戶……"],["廖委員偉翔：院長，你願不願意簽這個承諾支票？"],["卓院長榮泰：我覺得政府的政策是用在施政報告跟預算書上面來呈現的，而不是用一種簽名的方式，過去到現在都是這樣進行。"],["廖委員偉翔：換言之就是院長你沒辦法保證你會達標，你可能會跳票的意思？"],["卓院長榮泰：那張是……那個簽名……"],["劉部長世芳：這沒有意義啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：對我們政策的推動沒有任何特別的意義……"],["廖委員偉翔：原來我們的院長完全不敢為賴清德的承諾背書啊！所謂100萬戶的社宅，25萬戶可不可以蓋成？"],["卓院長榮泰：你這樣直接的說法是您的想法啦！"],["廖委員偉翔：我覺得這樣會變口號之國啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：對於總統的政見我們在全力的推動，這是我們對政策的負責。"],["廖委員偉翔：院長，我在這裡就是要代表關心居住正義的年輕人，想要問你願不願意簽這個承諾，所以你現在不願意簽，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們在政策上已經講得很清楚，我們往這個方向一直在努力。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，所以你就是不願意簽，沒問題。我想這真的令人非常的遺憾，你們民進黨政府在居住正義上面負了年輕人。"],["劉部長世芳：委員，如果您真正關心租金補貼的話，其實我們過去兩年租金補貼在青年滿意度是70%以上……"],["廖委員偉翔：我沒有說租金補貼怎麼樣，我是說你的政策目標沒有達成……"],["劉部長世芳：現在時間還沒有到啊！"],["廖委員偉翔：租金補貼拿到錢，大家當然都很快樂啊！但是黑市問題沒解決啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們一直在努力進行當中。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，院長，最後我聊聊居住正義三箭，你們剛剛的三箭我都清楚，所以你一直在那邊兜數字，你根本是在瞎扯淡，我明明就說……"],["劉部長世芳：不是，委員可能您誤解了……"],["廖委員偉翔：不是，我明明就說50萬戶，你們租屋補貼到66萬戶，可是黑市問題沒有解決……"],["劉部長世芳：您現在講的是一般的租屋市場，不是我們現在租金補貼上的補貼對象。"],["廖委員偉翔：我們現在討論的居住正義是政府有責任要給人民可負擔的、有保障的、多元的居住選擇權利，我們剛剛講的居住正義三階段，社宅蓋的速度不夠，所以現在社宅有限；租屋市場不透明，租金也有可能隨著這樣來上漲；房價門檻更高到讓年輕人難以跨越。大家可以看一下我們的簡報，現在的居住正義是這樣的，社宅、租屋到購屋已經是完全失衡了。我想要請問一下，有沒有第四種可能性？政府目前在土地的盤點上，除了興建社宅之外，有沒有思考另外一種中間型的住宅方案？包括半永久式的或者是類似青年可負擔宅的規劃，就是類似新加坡組屋的模式，同時具備長期居住，然後封閉市場可負擔的條件，請問我們有沒有這樣的規劃？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，其實各種的規劃，包括你所說的，不管是英國的或者是新加坡的，我們都有在考慮當中，但是在臺灣，一般人是安土重遷的狀況之下，他們當然希望社會住宅能夠住得越久越好、變成他們永久的租屋市場，不像現在是6年。所以我們也在考慮，除了年輕人以外，包括中高齡的老齡人口所需要的社會住宅也都需要考慮在內。"],["廖委員偉翔：對。"],["劉部長世芳：所以我們希望中央政府跟地方政府都要一起努力，但是現在很不樂見的就是地方政府願意釋放出的土地比較少。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，謝謝你，我想要表達的是，我支持這樣的方向。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝。"],["廖委員偉翔：我也希望剛才說的，多元的、可負擔的、可以保障的，然後請往這些方向去推動。"],["劉部長世芳：我們有在考慮，謝謝。"],["廖委員偉翔：我自己也做了許多研究，未來有機會也希望可以多多交流，我們都希望可以推成這件事情，可以嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝。"],["廖委員偉翔：我還是要講，居住正義不是大撒幣的湊數字而已，要促進市場透明，要完善整體的機制，留下一個可以具體、可以長期運作的制度給我們的下一代，這是我認為的居住正義，希望我們未來的4年或未來的任期可以好好的推動，把這個居住正義留給我們的下一代，讓他們可以住得起房，好不好？","再來，最近有很多民眾收到電價調漲的電費單，不僅一般住戶抱怨，甚至南臺灣有串燒店因為抱怨店裡「電費破紀錄、創新高，真是謝了」、「綠色是最噁心的顏色」，然後這個店家就被出征了。請問院長，電價高漲是事實，但是現在連老百姓抱怨都會被出征，你不覺得很恐怖嗎？院長，我是覺得，年年漲電價是一件非常恐怖的事情，老百姓跟店家的抱怨其實不是沒有道理，你也知道我們的民生用電已經連續3年調漲，累計已經漲了30.4%；工業用電已經連續三次調漲，再加上昨天的第四波，就已經來到了66.27%，你的官邸有公務預算可以支應，但是國內這些產業用電可是要列為成本的，3年漲了66.27%，請問院長，有多少產業扛得住啊？"],["卓院長榮泰：這次電價審議委員會在討論的過程當中，我知道他們把握的一個原則，就是反映成本……"],["廖委員偉翔：有，你提的這個我昨天都看了。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們必須讓台電的成本適度地反映出來，所以這個是接近成本的一個計算。"],["廖委員偉翔：院長，我要跟您反映，現在民生電價連三漲，百姓苦哈哈；工業電價連四漲，產業慘兮兮。但是這三年漲電價的同時，我們經濟部也已在前年增資台電1,500億；去年疫後特別條例預算又撥補了500億；6月的時候，經濟部又增資台電1,000億，這樣一來就已經補貼3,000億了；現在又希望立法院通過2,000億的補貼預算，加起來總共是5,000億，台電左手跟人民漲電價，右手拿人民納給政府的稅金，5,000億的補貼全部都是老百姓的錢。現在你們嘴巴上說尊重立法院的決定，但是一邊漲電價，一邊又要立法院通過這些預算來補貼台電，看在老百姓的眼裡，這不只是情緒勒索，應該是真的在勒索！","經濟部昨天有說，這次調漲電價有兩個原則，就是你剛剛有說到的，一個是照顧民生、穩定電價、穩定物價；另外一個是兼顧產業競爭力。但是有學者就說，這是經濟部自己在騙自己，因為這一次的調漲，生產成本會再度上升，很難消弭民眾對於物價上漲的預期心理。再者，所謂兼顧產業競爭力，連三三會的林伯豐會長也都說這次漲價會導致企業獲利減少大概5%；廠商可能會外移或關廠，進而影響勞動市場；接下來無薪假、裁員的情況會更多。院長，你能保證明年不再漲電價嗎？我想問的是這個。"],["卓院長榮泰：今年我們看到戰爭之後原物料上漲，所以在取得成本上，經過核實計算與使用者付費的原則下，讓工業用戶、比較大的用電戶能夠反映成本，這是電價審議委員會通過的原則。"],["廖委員偉翔：現在的能源政策問題就是成本太高，對不對？您願不願意承諾明年不會漲電價，院長？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們這次所漲的電價，經過計算……"],["廖委員偉翔：請回答我，可不可以保證？沒關係，請回答我可不可以保證？你們剛剛講的這些我昨天都有看，我知道，請問明年可以保證不漲電價嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：對我們CPI的影響只有0.03%，所以講說會造成什麼樣的經濟波動，但我們認為這個都是計算過的。"],["廖委員偉翔：有關0.03%這點等一下再講。院長，既然健保費可以保障明年不漲，請問電費可以保障嗎？不敢講？"],["卓院長榮泰：我也不能保證明年軍公教會不會調漲，因為這要衡酌很多的社會經濟條件，我們必須……"],["廖委員偉翔：我們現在是在討論能源政策……"],["卓院長榮泰：在權衡之下才能做決定，不是現在就在預估明年漲不漲。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以沒關係，就是不能夠保證，對不對？也因此我們才要靜下來進一步討論……"],["卓院長榮泰：這種保證太廉價，也沒有意義。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，所以我們進一步來討論。賴總統所推動的五大信賴產業，大概少數高毛利的電子產業或許還可以撐，可是大部分的傳產，譬如地方上很多的中小企業、工具機產業、旅宿業者，甚至媒體也報導，電價再漲下去，年底可能會倒一片，恐怕會有一波停業潮。這些業主還自嘲，自己就是不受信賴產業，這就是這段時間人民的心聲，我幫大家反映出來。現在工廠、公司停業，人民失業，但是老百姓抱怨一下就要被出征，這樣合理嗎？你剛剛有說要穩定民生所以民生電價不漲，這點我認同。不過工業電價漲12.5%，累積到現在已經漲了66.27%，然後你昨天說、剛剛部長也有說，衝擊為0.03%，對不對？我剛剛說這是你們算出來的，可是你有沒有算到我剛剛已經講過的，也就是《經濟學人》中學者所提出，民眾會有漲價的預期心理，請問這部分要怎麼處理？這是第一件事。況且很多官方數據統計都是低估的，何況0.03%指的是今年，請問到明年呢？你敢說到明年這個時間不會超過0.03%，對不對？還是我們就等到明年再來看看到底是不是0.03%？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想我們這一次……您剛才指導小企業或中型企業、比較艱苦的企業，我們會有兩個方式來幫助他們，一個就是推動AI；另外一個就是推動低碳化。也就是說我們會做深度的節能，而深度節能大概可以幫助降低7%的用電，我想用這個方法來提升他們的競爭力，如此才會有辦法走向競爭的環境。"],["廖委員偉翔：謝謝部長，這是另外一件事……"],["郭部長智輝：如果光在電價補助，這個對我們來講……"],["廖委員偉翔：這部分可不可以請你會後提供報告給我？的確，我認同這個方向，我沒有不認同，我覺得這個方向是對的，但我討論的還是電價問題和能源政策問題，畢竟你剛剛所講那些東西是需要時間累積的。簡單來講，短時間內漲這些東西會導致一些企業出走或倒閉，請問你們有估算過嗎？我給你們看一個數據，這是投審會的數據、官方資料。我國對外投資從99億美金大增到235.7億美金，漲幅達2.38倍；至於外國人願意來臺投資的，從133億美金掉到112億，一來一回大概淨流出123.7億美金。這些數據活生生代表現在的確有很多產業往海外設廠，因為他擔心臺灣任何的不穩定，所以逼著他出去。基本上他們現在的狀況就是面臨兩條路：要嘛我收掉、賣掉；第二個就是出國，可以到別的國家投資。不過這也代表了資金與人才的出走，所以我是在表達我的憂慮！數據會說話，這數據就是很簡單又很明白的數據，我希望說……對於漲電價，我最後還是要問：漲電價有解決根本問題嗎？還是只解決台電的財務？"],["卓院長榮泰：電價調整對於台電的營運、財務的健全有幫忙；在漲電價的同時，我們也會透過經濟部節約用電團隊去幫各個用電大戶來執行他的節約用電，這是降低他的成本。剛剛你所說的穩定物價，這次對住宅、小商店都沒有增加他的負擔，民生內需也沒有增加負擔。"],["廖委員偉翔：院長，我就歸根結柢，這些問題原因還是出在能源政策啦，外界就批評說我們是錯誤能源政策，想請教院長，我更想請教的就是我們有能源政策嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們就是發展綠能，而且能夠多方面的引進新的能源的概念……"],["廖委員偉翔：好，院長，我給你看一個資料，你們行政院……"],["卓院長榮泰：用天然氣來做橋接，這是我們一貫的……"],["廖委員偉翔：行政院核定的能源發展綱領是2017年4月版，也就是說這個綱領有8年沒有修正了，你覺得這樣合理嗎？像日本，我記得是3年就檢討一次，對啊，這個沒有更新啊，院長，你怎麼說？還是你覺得8年前到現在都適用？8年前沒有發生俄烏戰爭喔！"],["卓院長榮泰：現在很多世界大廠來臺灣設廠都指定要用綠電，我們如果……"],["廖委員偉翔：院長，這兩件事！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們如果沒有發展綠電的話，我們跟世界接不上軌。"],["廖委員偉翔：院長，我沒有說不發展綠電，但我要說的是你的這個發展綱領都沒有更新啊……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在發展的方向是對的。"],["廖委員偉翔：是不是代表新政府還沒有自己的能源政策？還是只是說大家想要綠能，我就要瘋狂蓋，比例到底是多少？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們過去的發展方向是對的，但因應這個情勢要隨時機動做討論，我想我們都會進行。"],["廖委員偉翔：院長，我再問喔，經濟部已經編列了60億的核三除役費用，所以代表明年你們確定要完全排除核能這個選項嗎？是嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：核能的部分，我們是這樣的，就是先把預算編列，因為按照目前的法令，它還是要下載。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以你還是模糊不清、當渣男、講不清楚到底要還是不要？"],["郭部長智輝：委員，你這句話有修正的必要，我們不是渣男。"],["廖委員偉翔：我是說在能源政策上面要、不要不講清楚，就是說我先編了，然後到時候再看狀況囉！"],["郭部長智輝：因為這個是法令的規定，我們一定要編，如果法令可以解掉，我們就不編了。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以你不是一定要把核三廠廢除囉？"],["郭部長智輝：這個當然是可以討論的議題。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以你還是沒有確定嘛，是不是？你只要回答我這件事。"],["郭部長智輝：不是，不是確定的問題，這個是在法令……"],["廖委員偉翔：我想大家都很關心啦！"],["郭部長智輝：在法令的框架之下，我們現在沒有辦法回答你這個問題。"],["廖委員偉翔：沒關係，部長，我想這個大家都很關心啦，其實你以前也有說過核能有必要嘛……"],["卓院長榮泰：這個跟委員報告，我們核三廠1號機已經除役，目前我們沒有一個重新啟動的法源可以來做，所以目前無法討論這件事。"],["廖委員偉翔：如果有的話，你們願意重啟嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個要經過社會的討論，我們的意思是說，核安、核廢跟社會共識是必要三個條件同時存在。"],["廖委員偉翔：院長，能源政策跟我們的產業政策和環境政策影響所及非常的多，牽一髮動全身，剛剛討論過了，基本上還是一樣，錯誤的能源配比。在能源和產業的關係上造成供電不穩，進而降低廠商的競爭力，我想連黃仁勳也說過，語重心長啊，穩定供電是臺灣最大的挑戰，要發展AI……"],["卓院長榮泰：我贊成！"],["廖委員偉翔：對嘛，你們也都這樣想嘛，所以謝謝，其實我很喜歡，我看到你們這樣點頭，我覺得是認同的，可是為什麼不敢做呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：但是世界的大廠也紛紛要來臺灣，可是委員剛剛的質詢到現在，好像我們的產業一直往外走，外國不進來，我們的物價一直……"],["廖委員偉翔：沒有，我是用數據講話喔！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們的物價一直在上升，所以你要讓我們把話講清楚，否則就停留在不是很正確的狀態裡面啊！"],["廖委員偉翔：可是我用的數據都拿出來給你看了啊，如果你覺得有疑義，你覺得有更好的數據提供，你可以在會後提供給我。"],["郭部長智輝：那個數字基本上是台積電到美國的數據，所以它增加出來的。"],["廖委員偉翔：台積電也去設廠了嘛，所以總金額也是外移嘛，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：對啊，它就是因為外國的邀請啊！"],["廖委員偉翔：除了供電不穩之外，電價也連三漲，所以我想這還是某種程度會帶動我們的通貨膨脹，會導致……白話文就是定錨效果，會讓我們物價回不去，因為接下來你也不能保證未來要不要再漲嘛，因為你說還沒有辦法到達成本，所以我要講的是錯誤的能源配比……"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們今年攤販集中市場、量販店、超商等等這些，都不會去增加他們的負擔，就是要穩定物價最起碼該有的作為。"],["廖委員偉翔：院長，我的時間有限，我想要講的就是喔，其實現在從整個邏輯看下來，我認為就是你們的能源政策在打假球啦，主要的……"],["卓院長榮泰：不是這個樣子！"],["廖委員偉翔：核電、燃煤、燃氣都是主要先發投手，至於中繼、後援的像是水力、風力、太陽能這種就一個一個釋出，只剩下救援投手表現不穩定，如果你是球隊總經理，這樣子的配比你要怎麼打比賽啊？還沒有考量到國安問題，50%的燃氣，如果我們被封鎖了要怎麼辦？因為我的時間不多了，我就是要跟你表達這件事情，你們的能源政策如果在配比上不認真的、務實的去檢討，你們就是打假球！打假球為什麼還要打？因為後面有利益、有財團，是不是在護航誰？這就是民眾的疑問嘛！堅持錯誤的能源政策會讓民眾覺得你是不是就為了貪腐？","最後，我還是想要問，院長，你覺得健保點值0.95……"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，現在的政府對於能源政策不會拿來用在偏袒哪一個團體或哪一些人，不會這樣做，你放心。"],["廖委員偉翔：院長，健保點值0.95元，你們到底有沒有信心達到？健保點值0.95。"],["卓院長榮泰：這是我們的目標。"],["廖委員偉翔：有沒有信心？早上你跟邱泰源部長好像彼此不同調。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們的目標相同，路徑共同努力。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以還是沒有辦法保證？"],["卓院長榮泰：一齊努力啦。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝廖委員，謝謝卓院長。","下一位請許宇甄委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":204,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-2","speakers":["江啟臣","楊瓊瓔","吳秉叡","陳玉珍","王定宇","邱鎮軍","蘇巧慧","吳宗憲","楊曜","游顥","蘇清泉","林淑芬","廖偉翔","許宇甄","張宏陸"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2024-10-01"],"gazette_id":"1137601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第2次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1137601_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}