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那個有申請但是這還要經過人審會通過以後通過了沒有人審會還沒有開明天會開明天會開但你自己的意願是要回歸審判嗎因為所有的調動都是會需要法官表示意願的一旦你回歸審判以後秘書長的位置會有誰代理"},{"start":59.126,"end":62.015,"text":"我想假設有新的這個"},{"start":63.854,"end":66.475,"text":"按照司法院秘書長代理所適用的法規會後再請您提供是規定在司法院組織法還是司法院初步規程裡"},{"start":95.066,"end":95.646,"text":"還有沒有來看一下齁就是"},{"start":123.422,"end":139.912,"text":"死刑判決要經過各級法院和議庭的一致決我們現在死刑是採取強制上訴的制度不管在第一審也好、第二審也好、第三審也好你要判死刑只有一個選擇就是要一致決這樣的解釋沒有錯吧?要判死刑就是一致決有哪一個國家是採取這樣的制度?"},{"start":150.602,"end":155.546,"text":"請委員指教,因為我們是一兆錢"},{"start":175.114,"end":201.537,"text":"我對於我們的憲法法庭自己立法立到這種程度我老實講我是嘆為觀止你要強化正當法律程序這沒有問題但問題是什麼憲法法庭利用做成判決或解釋的時候自己扮演起立法者的角色還創造了一個獨立全球的制度我只有看過一審的時候是40審嘛"},{"start":203.513,"end":204.233,"text":"如果高等法院判決死刑"},{"start":231.767,"end":247.796,"text":"上述到最高法院最高法院有四個法官認為這個死刑可以維持因為屬於情節最嚴重之罪有一個法官不這麼認為此時這個時候最高法院的何一庭應該怎麼處理廢棄發揮還是自圍判決如果說有堅持堅持那當然何一庭他們會會去溝通協調溝通協調那他們就4比1啊"},{"start":261.505,"end":273.387,"text":"實際上面到底有多少案件是4比1的我沒有在跟你講過去的事啦我說現在的事情啦現在有個高等法院三個法官一字決判死刑"},{"start":274.899,"end":291.935,"text":"強制上訴嘛到最高法院嘛四個最高法院的法官認為這是屬於情節最嚴重之罪一個最高法院的法官不這麼認為請問這個時候按照憲法法庭他所做出來的裁判最高法院的回憶題應該怎麼處理自為判決還是撤銷發回我想"},{"start":293.877,"end":308.219,"text":"如果說他要撤銷發回他當然有可能就要撤銷發回請事實審再周真佐如果說他真的要自己判那當然不能判死刑沒有判死刑的話就照我們的評議的最重的不能過"},{"start":308.86,"end":311.241,"text":"實務上面意見不一致怎麼處理這件事情到目前為止都是採取過半數的多數決嘛"},{"start":329.104,"end":329.364,"text":"所以這個時候重施法院"},{"start":354.7,"end":369.014,"text":"憲法法庭做出檢視以後他的檢視必須要夠清楚讓下級審所有法院的法官知道接下來我們要怎麼做裁判所以4比1的時候是我們的評議規則要改變就聽那一個人的是嗎"},{"start":370.905,"end":371.645,"text":"好 第二個當最高法院 認為"},{"start":396.277,"end":424.535,"text":"五個都同意應該要判死刑屬於情節最嚴重之罪但情節最嚴重之罪是我們憲法法庭所增加現在法律所沒有的概念非常抽象的要件概念非常抽象因為我國的所有刑事實體法法典裡面沒有一個構成要件要素叫做情節最嚴重憲法法庭自己本身的判決有沒有違反法律明確性恐怕"},{"start":425.738,"end":426.299,"text":"我的說明有沒有錯誤"},{"start":452.352,"end":466.96,"text":"應該是正確的應該是正確嘛到憲法法庭了以後問題來了憲法法庭15位大法官對於是不是符合他們所做成的情節最嚴重之罪請問要不要求一字決"},{"start":468.806,"end":497.938,"text":"目前沒有要求目前沒有要求所以這個邏輯是什麼是不是可以請戴琳秘書長幫我們開示一下下級審法院的法官要死刑都要一致決但憲法法庭如果要維持死刑的判決可以不要一致決這個是我們憲法法庭所揭示的標準嗎這個叫做沒有合理的懷疑嗎這個叫做程序保障最嚴密嗎還是大法官比較大所以不需要一致決來請戴琳秘書長"},{"start":499.022,"end":521.594,"text":"中文報告因為憲法法庭不會自己做死刑判決所以說因剛才要說說你你要維持死刑判決先等一下啦你說憲法法庭不會自己做自己的判決你講這句話就錯了嘛我們過去的大法官在大法官解釋裡面創設了自己多少法律所沒有明文的規定的權限當初定暫時狀態的處分就是這個樣子嘛"},{"start":524.198,"end":540.612,"text":"怎麼會憲法法庭沒有辦法自己做自己的判決做的可多了欸創設了一堆他的法律所沒有的權限代理秘書長事件的實務可能還是要熟一點啦我還是回來原來的問題啊請問憲法法庭的判決要不要求一致決"},{"start":542.093,"end":557.749,"text":"跟委員報告目前憲法法庭是沒有要求要一致決那奇怪了我們憲法法庭不是說程序保障要最嚴密下級審都要一致決只有他們自己不要一致決這個法理啊非常的精深啊是不是可以請代理秘書長幫我們解釋一下因為"},{"start":560.956,"end":569.041,"text":"當然不會自己判決死刑嘛你上訴到最高法院的時候是不是要以判決違背法令當理由是吧一個特定的案子是不是屬於情節最嚴重之罪看法不一樣的時候是不是屬於判決違背法令"},{"start":591.411,"end":612.148,"text":"我這樣說沒有錯吧對嘛 所以你即使是法律省的最高法院按照我們憲判字所做出來的解釋都要求一致決啊我的說明有錯嗎請你用麥克風回答這樣子大家根本不知道你的答案是什麼嘛那一樣嘛"},{"start":613.413,"end":637.835,"text":"如果最高法院是法律審要求一致決我以最高法院所維持的死刑判決是不是屬於情節最嚴重之罪申請憲法裁判憲法法庭做的一樣啊他只要維持了就是死刑啊他不維持的話那個死刑可能就要被撤銷了嘛所以我的問題來啦憲法法庭的判決要不要求一致決"},{"start":639.332,"end":657.827,"text":"那你剛剛給大家的說明是從憲判字裡面並沒有要求憲法法庭要一致決嘛我的說明有沒有錯對嘛 所以我們的大法官他要求的是什麼你們下級審法院全部都要一致決啊但我憲法法庭可以不用沒有關係啊搞成這個樣子現有的死刑犯終審判決是不是都有一致決"},{"start":667.16,"end":696.46,"text":"這個查完了沒有?現在還在調查調卷了解當中奇怪才37個案子欸啊這個調卷要這麼久?還需要多久?我們當然盡快盡快嘛因為這個牽涉到人家能不能救濟嘛如果牽涉到人家能不能救濟按照你剛剛所講的啦最終審的有沒有一致決這件事情你一定要清出來嘛你清出來才知道接下來要怎麼處理嘛"},{"start":697.812,"end":700.333,"text":"國民法官判死有要求一字決嗎?"},{"start":724.229,"end":742.318,"text":"跟委員報告國民法官判死沒有現在三分之二那剛才有跟委員報告那憲判字之後就是其他其中三位職業法官必須自決然後如果說不是啊這就很奇怪了嘛這又回到了我們憲判字的解釋嘛他不是要求程序保障最嚴密嗎"},{"start":744.091,"end":772.345,"text":"那為什麼國民法官的不要求一字決這個我看不懂啊跟委員報告因為國民法官法不在這一次那個四限標的範圍這次四限標的是四條我一開始有報告四條刑法的條文所以大法官也有講李懷宇也有講如果說將來大院或者是我們研議的時候也認為說國民法官的沒有啊你們當初研議的時候許中立送來的版本只要過半數捏"},{"start":774.861,"end":781.889,"text":"這是你們司法院送來的版本耶司法院送給立法院審議法案的版本司法院院長要不要點頭"},{"start":783.456,"end":805.579,"text":"需要還是不需要跟委員報告當然要但是司法院本身並不等於憲法法庭這個我知道啊我現在只有在問司法院的立場嘛因為你剛剛已經逃脫到從憲法法庭到司法院接下來的立法政策嘛那我現在就直接請教司法院嘛就國民法官法的部分司法院有打算要求一致決嗎"},{"start":809.523,"end":821.252,"text":"還要研議多久不是啦 因為我覺得司法院啊很莫名其妙當初國民法官法送來的時候說要求只要過半數就好啦奇怪了我們司法院的立場是變來變去喔"},{"start":827.708,"end":855.681,"text":"因為我們那時候並沒有憲判字出來指示所以說跟當時的時空恐怕不一樣好了最後一個問題死刑限於個案犯罪情節最嚴重這個案犯罪情節最嚴重怎麼解釋我想那個憲判字的理由裡面已經有講那法官在個案裁量的時候對啊但是他都沒有給解釋喔他有給那個正面跟負面的他全部都是用什麼用舉例的方式喔"},{"start":857.168,"end":885.14,"text":"所有的法律人就會要求啦什麼叫做情節最嚴重這主要有個解釋吧如果連大法官自己都解釋不出來那請問以後要下級審法院的法官要如何解釋適用啊就看他們的例子喔好那你說要看他們的例子來我問下面例子是動機與目的、手段與參與程度、犯罪結果請問這是三者則一就是屬於情節最嚴重還是三個全部都要具備"},{"start":887.148,"end":907.453,"text":"跟委員報告齁 那實務上面的這個法官大概會綜合考量 也不是沒有沒有 先停一下齁我先不要推到未來實務上的法官依照憲法法庭解釋 解釋的內容這三個 犯罪動機與目的手段與參與程度 犯罪結果 它全部都有歷史嘛那這個是要同時具備"},{"start":911.926,"end":927.896,"text":"還是其中一個滿足就可以了這很重要啊我想跟委員報告齁因為我們當法官的這麼久去審判歷史這些東西我相信大部分的法官都有能力就這邊去沒有沒有沒有我沒有說法官沒能力現在我只說就這三個歷史的是要同時具備"},{"start":929.037,"end":944.282,"text":"還是擇一就好不好意思我請他這個問題回答完就結束了跟委員報告就是綜合判斷因為每個案的情形每一個情況都不一樣今天說要去切割說一定是擇一我想這一部分恐怕跟訴訟十五是不相符的啦"},{"start":945.253,"end":966.02,"text":"你怎麼會跟訴訟實務不相符啊你以後就這個情節最嚴重是動機與目的、手段與參與程度、犯罪的結果是不是都要求他所立誓的情況他每一個當然都要去做斟酌但是每一個情況不一樣你在做良心"},{"start":967.113,"end":974.266,"text":"判斷的時候每一個的比重多少法官應該本應他的確信依照他的良心去做斟酌今天不是一加一等於二的問題訴訟也沒有那麼單純"},{"start":976.448,"end":996.536,"text":"沒有啦 這不是1加1等於2的問題我時間到了啦 請你再冷靜的回去想一想我今天問的這個問題 我跟你保證未來的審判實務上每一個法官全部都會遇到這樣的問題他在斟酌這三個要件要素的時候是不是都要符合大法官所講的歷史"},{"start":998.417,"end":1011.588,"text":"這影響非常深遠請秘書長稍微自己想一下這個問題如果沒有解決的話未來要負責審判的法官根本就無所適從好 謝謝"}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:18:55 - 09:35:49","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署、衛生福利部率所屬相關單位列席就「憲法法庭113年度憲判字第8號判決宣示相關法令之檢討與修正」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":171,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時19分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請司法院代理秘書長及法務部部長。"],["主席：請代理秘書長、部長。"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：代理秘書長好，請問你會代理到什麼時候？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：代理到什麼時候，我也沒有辦法了解。"],["黃委員國昌：你不是申請回歸審判了嗎？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：是，有申請，但是還要經過人審會通過，通過以後……"],["黃委員國昌：通過了沒有？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：人審會還沒有開，明天會開。"],["黃委員國昌：明天會開，但你自己的意願是要回歸審判。"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：因為所有的調動都會需要法官表示意願。"],["黃委員國昌：一旦你回歸審判以後，秘書長的位置會由誰代理？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：我想假設有新的院長，院長當然會指派秘書長，在秘書長還沒產生之前，我不知道，院裡面或者是人審會，也許會希望我繼續代理，這個都有可能，我現在沒有辦法確定。"],["黃委員國昌：OK，沒有關係，按照司法院秘書長代理所適用的法規，會後再請你提供，好嗎？是規定在司法院組織法還是司法院處務規程裡？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：可能是處務規程，但是我們要回去再確定一下。"],["黃委員國昌：你不用確認了，我跟你講，司法院處務規程沒有，你等一下回去看就知道了，我看不到你們代理的法規到底是什麼。因為司法院畢竟是司法院嘛，如果司法院自己在處理一些事情的時候都沒有依照法律的話，國人看了會很心寒。","好，我們來看一下，就是死刑判決要經過各級法院合議庭的一致決，我們現在死刑是採取強制上訴的制度，不管在第一審也好，第二審也好，第三審也好，你要判死刑只有一個選擇，就是要一致決，這樣的解釋沒有錯吧？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：判死刑就是一致決。"],["黃委員國昌：請問有哪一個國家是採取這樣的制度？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，那個……"],["黃委員國昌：對不起，我時間有限，你針對問題回答就好了。有哪一個國家是採取我們現在憲法法庭，有人說它立法，有人說它造法，不管是立法還是造法，有哪一個國家採行這樣的制度？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：請委員指教，因為我們是依照……"],["黃委員國昌：你不要請我指教嘛，我對於我們的憲法法庭自己立法立到這種程度，老實講，我是嘆為觀止啊！你要強化正當法律程序，這沒有問題，但問題是憲法法庭利用做成判決或解釋的時候，自己扮演起立法者的角色，還創造了一個獨步全球的制度啊！我只有看過，一審的時候因為是事實審，要求一致決，在美國大部分的州都是這個樣子，這個沒有問題，但我從來沒有看過，除了事實審以外，上訴到法律審的時候也要求一致決，如果上訴到法律審的時候也要求一致決，那問題很嚴重啊！我為什麼說問題很嚴重？我具體請教一下代理秘書長，如果高等法院判決死刑，上訴到最高法院，最高法院有四個法官認為這個死刑可以維持，因為屬於情節最嚴重之罪，有一個法官不這麼認為，此時最高法院的合議庭應該怎麼處理？廢棄發回還是自為判決？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：如果說有堅持，當然合議庭他們會去溝通協調，他們……"],["黃委員國昌：就四比一啊！"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：實際上到底有多少案件是四比一的，那……"],["黃委員國昌：我沒有在跟你講過去的事啦！我說的是現在的事情，現在高等法院三個法官一致決判死刑，強制上訴到最高法院，四個最高法院的法官認為這是屬於情節最嚴重之罪，一個最高法院的法官不這麼認為，請問這個時候按照憲法法庭所做出來的裁判，最高法院的合議庭應該怎麼處理？自為判決還是撤銷發回？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：我想如果它要撤銷發回，當然有可能就要撤銷發回，請事實審再做斟酌，如果說它真的要自己判，那當然不能判死刑，沒有判死刑的話，就照我們評議的，最重的不能過就減，恐怕得這樣，但是實際上的情形，恐怕要看實際上合議庭他們怎麼去做處理，實務上面運作這麼久，就意見不一致的合議庭怎麼處理，其實有一定的……"],["黃委員國昌：實務上面意見不一致怎麼處理這件事情，到目前為止都是採取過半數的多數決嘛！"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：實際上面有些時候……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有啦，你採取過半數的多數決就不會有問題嘛！大家有不同意見的時候，在評議簿上面寫意見嘛！如果可以講到大家意見都一致，就意見一致，就不會有在評議簿上記的問題。我現在的問題是說，當最高法院的法官是四比一的時候，所以司法院憲法法庭做出的解釋必須要夠清楚啊！","讓下級審所有法院的法官知道接下來我們要怎麼做裁判嘛，所以四比一的時候是我們的評議規則要改變，就聽那一個人的，是嗎？這個是我的問題啦！"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：我知道，因為憲法法庭已經要求說必須一致決，只要有一位堅持不肯，那我想合議庭本身必須去做……我個人認為說這跟我們在評議的時候，因為沒有辦法取得多數意見過半，還是多數意見可能還是……"],["黃委員國昌：好，第二個，當最高法院認為5個都同意，應該要判死刑，屬於情節最嚴重之罪，但情節最嚴重之罪是我們憲法法庭所增加現在法律所沒有的，概念非常抽象的要件，概念非常抽象，因為我國的所有刑事實體法法典裡面，沒有一個構成要件要素叫做情節最嚴重，憲法法庭自己本身的判決有沒有違反法律明確性，恐怕自己都必須要接受檢驗，我國的刑法典什麼時候有一個構成要件要素叫做情節最嚴重？但沒有關係，最高法院的法官5個都認為這是情節最嚴重，被告他可以聲請什麼？憲法裁判嘛！要求憲法法院審查這是不是情節最嚴重，我的說明有沒有錯誤？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：應該是正確的。"],["黃委員國昌：應該是正確嘛！好，到憲法法庭了以後，問題來了，憲法法庭15位大法官對於是不是符合他們所做成的情節最嚴重之罪，請問要不要求一致決？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：目前沒有要求。"],["黃委員國昌：目前沒有要求，所以這個邏輯是什麼？是不是可以請代理秘書長幫我們開示一下，下級審法院的法官要死刑都要一致決，但憲法法庭如果要維持死刑的判決可以不要一致決，這個是我們憲法法庭所揭示的標準嗎？這個叫做沒有合理的懷疑嗎？這個叫做程序保障最嚴密嗎？還是大法官比較大，所以不需要一致決？請代理秘書長。"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，因為憲法法庭不會自己做死刑判決，所以剛才要求說你要維持死刑判決……"],["黃委員國昌：先等一下啦！你說憲法法庭不會自己做自己的判決，你講這句話就錯了！我們過去的大法官在大法官解釋裡面創設了自己多少法律所沒有明文規定的權限，當初定暫時狀態的處分就是這個樣子嘛！怎麼會憲法法庭沒有辦法自己做自己的判決？做的可多了耶！創設了一堆他們法律所沒有的權限，代理秘書長，釋憲的實務可能還是要熟一點啦！我還是回來原來的問題啦，請問憲法法庭的判決要不要求一致決？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，目前憲法法庭是沒有要求要一致決。"],["黃委員國昌：那奇怪了，我們憲法法庭不是說程序保障要最嚴密，下級審都要一致決，只有他們自己不要一致決，這個法理非常地精深！是不是可以請代理秘書長幫我們解釋一下？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：因為大法官憲判字也只要求宣判死刑的案件需要一致決，也沒有說其他的部分要一致決，憲法法庭目前就我所知，也沒有自己去判決死刑，將來是不是像委員……"],["黃委員國昌：它當然不會自己判決死刑嘛！你上訴到最高法院的時候，是不是要以判決違背法令當理由？是吧！一個特定的案子是不是屬於情節最嚴重之罪，看法不一樣的時候是不是屬於判決違背法令，我這樣說沒有錯吧？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：當然這個算是法律......"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！所以你即使是法律審的最高法院，按照我們憲判字所做出來的解釋都要求一致決，我的說明有錯嗎？請你用麥克風回答，這樣大家根本不知道你的答案是什麼。"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：一樣嘛！如果最高法院是法律審要求一致決，我以最高法院所維持的死刑判決是不是屬於情節最嚴重之罪聲請憲法裁判，憲法法庭做的一樣啊，它只要維持了就是死刑，它不維持的話，那個死刑可能就要被撤銷了嘛！所以我的問題來了，憲法法庭的判決要不要求一致決？你剛剛給大家的說明是，從憲判字裡面並沒有要求憲法法庭要一致決嘛，我的說明有沒有錯？對嘛！所以我們的大法官他要求的是什麼？你們下級審法院全部都要一致決，但我憲法法庭可以不用沒有關係，搞成這個樣子，現有的死刑犯終審判決是不是都有一致決？這個查完了沒有？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：現在還在調查調卷了解當中。"],["黃委員國昌：奇怪，才37個案子耶！這個調卷要這麼久？還需要多久？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：我們當然儘快。"],["黃委員國昌：儘快嘛！因為這個牽涉到人家能不能救濟，如果牽涉到人家能不能救濟，按照你剛剛所講的，最終審有沒有一致決這件事情你一定要清出來嘛，你清出來才知道接下來要怎麼處理嘛！"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，現在只是指三審一致決……"],["黃委員國昌：我知道，所以清完沒有？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：現在正在調卷查，因為將來要非常上訴還要經過檢察總長提出……"],["黃委員國昌：需要多久？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：我們會儘快。"],["黃委員國昌：查完了以後函復本委員會所有委員，可以嗎？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：可以。"],["黃委員國昌：國民法官判死有要求一致決嗎？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，國民法官判死沒有，現在三分之二，剛才有跟委員報告，憲判字之後就是其中3位職業法官必須一致決，然後如果說……"],["黃委員國昌：不是啦！這就很奇怪了嘛，這又回到了我們憲判字的解釋嘛，它不是要求程序保障最嚴密嗎？那為什麼國民法官的不要求一致決？這個我看不懂！"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，因為國民法官法不在這一次釋憲標的範圍，這次釋憲標的是四條，我一開始有報告，四條刑法的條文，所以大法官也有講，理由裡面有講，如果說將來大院或者是我們研議的時候，也認為說國民法官的……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有啊！你們當初研議的時候，許宗力送來的版本只要過半數耶！這是你們司法院送來的版本耶！是司法院送給立法院審議法案的版本，司法院院長要不要點頭？需要還是不需要？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，當然要，但是司法院本身並不等於憲法法庭……"],["黃委員國昌：這個我知道啊，我現在只有在問司法院的立場，因為你剛剛已經逃脫到從憲法法庭到司法院接下來的立法政策嘛！那我現在就直接請教司法院，就國民法官法的部分，司法院有打算要求一致決嗎？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：我們會進行進一步的研議，本來就要……"],["黃委員國昌：還要研議多久？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：我們儘快，現在……"],["黃委員國昌：不是啦，因為我覺得司法院很莫名其妙，當初國民法官法送來的時候，說要求只要過半數就好，奇怪了，我們司法院的立場是變來變去喔？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：因為我們那時候並沒有憲判字出來指示，所以說跟當時的時空恐怕不一樣。"],["黃委員國昌：好，最後一個問題，死刑限於個案犯罪情節最嚴重，這個案犯罪情節最嚴重怎麼解釋？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：我想那個憲判字的理由裡面已經有講，法官在個案裁量的時候……"],["黃委員國昌：對啊，但是它都沒有給解釋喔！"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：它有給正面跟負面……"],["黃委員國昌：它全部都是用什麼？用舉例的方式喔！所有的法律人就會要求，什麼叫做情節最嚴重？這總要有個解釋吧！如果連大法官自己都解釋不出來，那請問以後要下級審法院的法官如何解釋適用？就看他們的例子喔？好，你說要看他們的例子，來，我問下面，例子是動機與目的、手段與參與程度、犯罪結果，請問這是三者擇一就是屬於情節最嚴重，還是三個全部都要具備？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，實務上面法官大概會綜合考量，也不是……"],["黃委員國昌：先停一下，我先不要推到未來實務上的法官，依照憲法法庭解釋的內容，這三個，犯罪動機與目的、手段與參與程度、犯罪結果，全部都有例示嘛！這個是要同時具備，還是其中一個滿足就可以了？這很重要啊！"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：我想跟委員報告，因為我們當法官這麼久去審判，例示這些東西，我相信大部分的法官都有能力就這邊去……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有，我沒有說法官沒能力，現在我只說，就這三個例示的，是要同時具備還是擇一就好？不好意思，我請他這個問題回答完就結束了。"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，就是綜合判斷，因為每個案的情形、每一個情況都不一樣，今天說要去切割一定是擇一，我想這一部分恐怕跟訴訟實務是不相符的啦！"],["黃委員國昌：怎麼會跟訴訟實務不相符？你就這個情節最嚴重是動機與目的、手段與參與程度、犯罪的結果，是不是都要求它所例示的情況？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：它每一個當然都要去做斟酌，但是每一個情況不一樣，在做量刑判斷的時候，每一個比重多少，法官應該本於他的確信，依照他的良心去斟酌，今天不是一加一等於二的問題，訴訟也沒有那麼單純。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有啦！這不是一加一等於二的問題，我時間到了啦！請你再冷靜地回去想一想我今天問的這個問題，我跟你保證未來的審判實務上每一個法官全部都會遇到這樣的問題，他在斟酌這三個要件、要素的時候，是不是都要符合大法官所講的例示？這影響非常深遠、這影響非常深遠，請秘書長稍微自己想一下，這個問題如果沒有解決的話，未來要負責審判的法官根本就無所適從，好，謝謝。"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝，請回。秘書長，後面這一段我也聽不下去，「最嚴重」這樣解釋我沒辦法接受，我們也走過司法實務啊！但這個……","不好意思，我們接下來請沈發惠委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":156,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-3","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","鍾佳濱","謝龍介","吳思瑤","羅智強","翁曉玲","陳俊宇","王鴻薇","林淑芬","傅崐萁","楊瓊瓔","廖偉翔","牛煦庭","洪孟楷","林思銘"],"page_start":89,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1138001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署、衛生福利部率所屬相關單位列席就「憲法法庭\n113年度憲判字第8號判決宣示相關法令之檢討與修正」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138001_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}