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這個我接受"},{"start":191.004,"end":198.331,"text":"我怎麼會不知道站在司法院或者大法官的一個立場裡面他們比較傾向於廢死的主張廢死我也不認為是一個罪惡喔我也認為這個是一個價值喔那但是這個社會以現在的氛圍可能大家認為說感痛你感動得了但是去把整個法律正當程序去把它更嚴謹的話"},{"start":215.097,"end":224.252,"text":"本席是覺得是認同的喔站在法務部的立場比如說一個兇殺案發生連續殺死了好多人請勞官當然是具體辦法給求刑阿"},{"start":225.626,"end":245.112,"text":"一審的法院尤其是一審的法院那個時候整個社會的氛圍一定是對他產生很大的一個壓力一審去判處死刑我覺得是很有可能的可是到了二審呢他在檢視法律的時候他看你偵查程序裡面或者認為說他好像還不用到死刑"},{"start":247.208,"end":271.644,"text":"想法會有所不同你是完全要讓他從這個社會裡面去把他讓他消失掉還是說讓他有機會重新再回到這個社會從來就是爭論從過去的犯罪學的那麼多學派裡面爭論你也找不到一致的一個答案我簡單講好了啦今天如果說底下有一個人去殺了好多人"},{"start":273.567,"end":278.649,"text":"碰到在檢察官偵查的時候或法案在審判的時候跟你說我錯了趕快讓我死吧這個符合民意的期待嗎像這種情況我都覺得太便宜他了我都認為你想死了就解脫我之所以死刑的存在就是要報復你啊我應該讓你生不如死才對啊所以我一直認為這個問題法務部沒錯"},{"start":301.337,"end":328.436,"text":"法務部更主張覺得什麽死刑廢除掉那整個社會的治安法律的一個秩序誰來維護法務部講到我的立場我就認為沒有不對喔但是司法院你再去做一個審量考量的話我也沒有我認為讓整個法律正當程序讓他更嚴謹這個也是對的喔所以我期許啊司法院你到立法院來啊就按照整個憲政的一個秩序啊我自己設計啊我也不好意思跟你講話講太大聲"},{"start":330.404,"end":356.35,"text":"你若無表現比較小啦,不然怎麼說?抬頭挺胸,不卑不亢,這個才叫做法律人,這個沒有對錯。立法委員的質詢常常在呼應短期的民粹,所以那一把尺還是要堅持住。你像比如說,我們整個法律的一個規定就講得非常清楚,"},{"start":357.909,"end":383.654,"text":"你說到底這個整個憲法是國家誰最大當然憲法最大當然要拘束各個機關你去看看我們憲法第78條賦予整個我們現在大法官裡面他去解釋法律跟命令的一個義務那你如果說大法官在審查說到底這個法律合不合憲當然是大法官憲法法庭他是自己去做出獨立的一個判斷"},{"start":384.827,"end":388.722,"text":"那所以啊所以啊我在這個地方啊一直針對這樣的一個問題啊"},{"start":390.931,"end":417.828,"text":"這次的憲判字做出來以後我也有很大的一個感慨你說4至185號裡面司法院解釋憲法他也明文講得很清楚居宿各機關的效力4至405號也講得很清楚表明得很清楚立法權甚至於不能一躍司法院所做的憲法上的一個解釋只是說本院立法院他在立法的時候我們有自然形成的這樣的一個自由我們該怎麼立法不是你司法院管得到的但重點是說立出來的東西"},{"start":420.39,"end":441.23,"text":"要接受到整個憲法法庭這都受到大法官我以前說叫大法官會議受到他的一個拘束這個是很明確的一個揭示啦除非我們不採立憲主義啦每一個國家採的制度不一樣啊你如果有老共的地方什麼你憲法很大什麼你司法案什麼憲法法庭很大我習近平最大帝制的時候就是皇帝講的最大"},{"start":445.492,"end":456.974,"text":"你說這有沒有什麼道理 這也沒道理啊這就制度有所不同啊各有所失 各失其職啊但我有幾個問題要來做一個請教啦就是說我們如果說真的要去採硬報的話那是不是你教育的部分都不用了如果全部要採硬報的話法務部也必須要去做思考啊那你監獄裡面的矯正的一個制度"},{"start":473.666,"end":489.111,"text":"那個觀念也會顛覆掉喔也會顛覆掉喔所以博定我知道你的立場這個法務部會有壓力司法院當然會有壓力但司法院都不應該有壓力司法院都不應該受到民粹的一個影響林本人就不應該啊這個制度是要可長可遠"},{"start":495.987,"end":510.886,"text":"很多立法院的委員他認為死刑怎麼可以把我給廢掉這樣的一個主張他其實利益也都良善喔利益也都良善喔我也不認為說死刑廢掉以後啊整個國家"},{"start":511.727,"end":528.41,"text":"的好像這個社會秩序啊或者說整個治安全部都會崩垮掉很多替代方式啊我在講的啦我都一直想因為我很怕被人家講說我很不文明啊不然我就覺得死刑都太便宜了這一些所謂的犯罪行為人欸比如說叫我來做出一個判決的話這些人到底要不要判處死刑罪行非常重、非常可惡手段非常殘忍"},{"start":541.479,"end":559.876,"text":"啊真的他跟你說我真的好殘忍給我死吧你就真的叫我當法官我就讓你死哪那麼便宜你我就是讓你生不如死所以我這樣講也不代表我這個觀念有所不對啊每一個人對這一個罪行對他的厭惡度感受會不同法官也是人啊"},{"start":565.475,"end":582.141,"text":"法官當然也會有所不同所以我看到這個憲判字第8號我確實是感受到以後判處死刑會變更困難但是相對的也要讓你整個因為它是重罪人命確實是不可剝奪它很有可能一有閃失的話那確實不可恢復讓整個法律正當性更嚴謹我是覺得是好事但是法務部你也不用有壓力"},{"start":594.591,"end":599.264,"text":"今天我也不用有壓力,我就把你具體抽取死刑,我的立場哪有不對?"},{"start":600.649,"end":614.875,"text":"我站在法務部長的立場哪有不對?我站在檢察官的立場哪有不對?你就是該死我檢察官本來就是要打擊犯罪可是站在法院的立場就覺得說你當初在社會案、刑案當下發生的時候社會那裡那麼轟動那大家怕也怕死社會老百姓這樣要求你嘛所以檢察官這樣去做是對的啊可是問題是說那法院呢?法院你說完全都是照著檢察官的那就不用審法院了,我們都有檢察官就好了"},{"start":628.36,"end":646.02,"text":"所以我本來其實還要針對我們整個再審那個新事實新證據那個部分再跟你們來做一個探討但是今天我也不敢耽誤其他同仁的一個時間但是我倒覺得說在討論到底要不要讓它實行的時候其實"},{"start":648.168,"end":661.074,"text":"大家都說得利得好啦沒有壓力啦法務部你也沒有壓力啦大膽的講出你自己的想法啦我就是反對廢死啦法務部的立場也可以也很正常啦你站在司法院的立場我讓你整個法律程序更嚴謹這也都是合理的啦以上我不知道秘書長你有看到嗎簡單給我回應一下"},{"start":668.097,"end":670.558,"text":"所以憲法法庭其實他所做出來的判決他當然是拘束各個機關吧"},{"start":688.26,"end":704.306,"text":"當然因為他是對憲法這個解釋所有全國的各機關當然都要在憲法之下才能夠去行使職權我們不用採立憲主義可以不拘束啊採帝制就可以不拘束啊皇帝下個命令就可以啊我用簡單給他回應一下"},{"start":724.769,"end":725.054,"text":"在於來訪"},{"start":732.29,"end":750.717,"text":"世紀的一個爭論的一個問題在社會產生波瀾很正常啦各有立場你們就好好去把它做堅持沒有人可以講你們對還是不對就是說理嘛就這麼簡單嘛你說在野黨的主張廢食的合不合理我也認為他講得非常有道理你要把它踩住的話你認為讓整個法律政策程序更嚴謹的話沒有什麼不對啦好不好一起加油啦"}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:49:50 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10:02:30","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署、衛生福利部率所屬相關單位列席就「憲法法庭113年度憲判字第8號判決宣示相關法令之檢討與修正」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":301,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（9時49分）謝謝主席。有請司法院代理秘書長……"],["主席：請代理秘書長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：黃秘書長，還有法務部鄭部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：秘書長，還有部長，早！我想死刑到底要廢或者讓它繼續存在是一個世紀的爭論，倒不是現在才凸顯出來。我們看到今年憲判字第8號這樣一個憲法法庭判決出來以後，社會輿論看起來是炸鍋，在場幾位委員的立場怎麼樣，我相信大家都非常清楚。我不認為這是一個對錯的問題，一個國家如果採的是立憲主義，是憲政制度的話，你就必須要去肯認憲法是一部拘束各個機關的最高法律，那當然就是由大法官，就是我們現在的憲法法庭來做解釋。我看到本院的同仁也提到，大法官解釋不一定能完全拘束立法院。老實說，聽到這句話，我是嚇出一身冷汗，我嚇出一身冷汗！所以我要來就教我們司法院秘書長。","其實我今天看部長及代理秘書長的答詢，看了以後，我很想給你們鼓掌，你們的立場本來就可以有所不同，本來就可以有所不同。站在法務部的立場，尤其是站在打擊犯罪第一線檢察官的立場，他摘奸發伏，打擊重大犯罪，他本來就是有義務、有責任來維護整個國家法律的秩序，他更嚴苛，甚至於認為這個罪犯有夠可惡，罪無可恕！我覺得這個立場我都很可以接受。但是站在司法院的立場的話，我本來就是在做判決，各級法院在做判決，我要好好的去檢視你整個偵查階段，或者一審判決你認事用法、在採用這個證據有沒有任何瑕疵違失的地方。","如果今天大家認為這個人很可惡，死刑了，很快，我也知道這很快，我也知道這很快，但重點是如果站在各級法院的立場，再去對證據做嚴格的檢視，甚至於這一次憲判字第8號裡面講出來的。其實很多本院的委員認為這個是實質上廢死，我倒是不把這個解讀叫廢死，我認為應該是各級法院或檢察官會認為要讓被告來判處死刑更困難了，這個我接受，這個我接受，我怎麼會不知道站在司法院或者大法官的立場裡面，他們比較傾向於廢死，主張廢死我也不認為這個是一個罪惡，我也認為這個是一個價值，但是這個社會，以現在的氛圍，大家認為可以嗎？你承受得了嗎？但是去把整個法律正當程序更嚴謹的話，本席覺得是認同的。站在法務部的立場，譬如一個兇殺案發生，他連續殺死了好多人，檢察官當然是對他具體求刑，到一審的法院，尤其是一審的法院，那個時候整個社會的氛圍一定是對它產生很大的壓力，一審去判處死刑，我覺得是很有可能的，可是到了二審，它在檢視法律的時候，它看偵查程序裡面或者認為他好像還不用到死刑，想法會有所不同，你是完全要讓他從這個社會裡面消失掉，還是讓他有機會重新再回到這個社會，從來就是爭論，從過去犯罪學那麼多學派裡面的爭論，你也找不到一個一致的答案。","我簡單講好了，今天如果底下有一個人連續殺了好多人，在檢察官偵查的時候或法院在審判的時候，他跟你說他錯了，趕快讓他死吧！這個符合民意的期待嗎？像這種情況，我都覺得太便宜他了，我都認為他想死了就解脫，我之所以讓死刑存在就是要報復他，我應該讓他生不如死才對啊！所以我一直認為這個問題法務部沒錯，法務部更主張如果死刑廢除掉，那整個社會的治安、法律的秩序誰來維護？法務部、檢察官的立場，我認為沒有不對，但是司法院再去做一個考量的話，我認為讓整個法律的正當程序更嚴謹，這個也是對的，所以司法院到立法院來，其實按照整個憲政秩序的設計，我也不好意思跟你們說話說太大聲，你也沒有比我們小，不是這樣說嗎？抬頭挺胸、不卑不亢，這個才叫做法律人，這個沒有對錯，立法委員的質詢常常在呼應短期的民粹，所以那一把尺還是要堅持住。","比如說我們整個法律的規定就講得非常清楚，你說到底整個國家誰最大？當然是憲法最大，當然要拘束各個機關，憲法第七十八條賦予大法官去解釋法律跟命令的義務，大法官在審查到底這個法律合不合憲時，當然是大法官他自己在憲法法庭去做出獨立的一個判斷。所以我在這個地方一直針對這樣的一個問題，這一次的憲判字作出來以後我也有很大的一個感慨，釋字第185號也明文講得很清楚，司法院解釋憲法，有拘束各機關的效力；釋字第405號也表明得很清楚，立法權甚至於不能逾越司法院所做憲法上的解釋。只是本院在立法的時候，我們有自然形成的自由，我們該怎麼立法，不是司法院管得到的，但重點是立出來的東西要接受到整個憲法法庭、接受到大法官（以前叫大法官會議）的拘束，這是很明確的一個揭示，除非我們不採立憲主義。每一個國家採的制度不一樣，你如果在老共的地方，什麼憲法很大、什麼司法院、什麼憲法法庭很大，我習近平最大，帝制的時候就是皇帝講得最大，你說這有沒有什麼道理？這也沒道理呀，就是制度有所不同，各有所司、各司其職。","但我有幾個問題要請教，我們如果真的要去採應報的話，那是不是教育的部分都不用？如果全部要採應報的話，法務部也必須要去做思考，那麼監獄裡面矯正制度的觀念也會顛覆掉。部長，我知道你的立場，這個法務部會有壓力，司法院當然也有壓力，但司法院都不應該有壓力，司法院都不應該受到民粹的影響，你們本來就不應該，這個制度是要可長可遠，很多立法院的委員認為怎麼可以把死刑廢掉？這樣的一個主張其實立意也都良善，我也不認為死刑廢掉以後，整個國家的社會秩序或者整個治安全部都會崩垮掉，有很多替代方式，我都一直想，因為我很怕被人家講說我很不文明，不然我就覺得死刑都太便宜了這一些所謂的犯罪行為人，你說叫我來做出一個判決的話，這些人到底要不要判處死刑？罪行非常可惡、手段非常殘忍，他跟你說，我真的好殘忍，給我死吧！我當法官，我就讓你死，哪有那麼便宜你？我就是要讓你生不如死。我這樣講，也不代表我這個觀念有所不對啊！每一個人對這個罪行的厭惡度感受會不同，法官也是人，法官當然也會有所不同啊！所以我看到這個憲判字第8號，我確實是感受到以後判處死刑會變更困難，但是相對的也要讓整個……因為他是重罪，人命確實是不可剝奪，很有可能一有閃失的話，那確實不可回復。讓整個法律的正當性更嚴謹，我覺得是好事啦，但是法務部你也不用有壓力，檢察官也不用有壓力，我就是具體求處死刑，我的立場哪有不對？我站在法務部長的立場哪有不對，我站在檢察官的立場哪有不對？你就是該死，檢察官本來就是要打擊犯罪的，可是站在法院的立場就覺得，當初刑案剛發生的時候，社會那麼轟動，大家怕也怕死了，老百姓這樣要求你嘛！所以檢察官這樣去做是對的，可是問題是法院呢？法院如果完全都是照著檢察官，那就不用設法院了，我們都給檢察官就好了。","我本來還要針對再審的新事實、新證據那個部分再跟你們來做一個探討，但是今天我也不敢耽誤其他同仁的時間，我倒覺得在討論到底要不要死刑的時候，其實大家都講道理就好，不用有壓力啦！法務部你也不用有壓力啦，大膽的講出你自己的想法，我就是反對廢死啦！法務部的立場也很正常。站在司法院的立場，我讓整個法律程序更嚴謹，這也都是合理的，以上。我不知道秘書長你的看法為何，簡單回應一下。"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：要判處死刑是剝奪生命而不可回復，當然要用最嚴密、最嚴格的法律程序，也是這次憲判字的要求，委員的高見我們一定回去好好地去斟酌。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以憲法法庭所做出來的判決當然是拘束各個機關吧？"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：當然，因為它是對憲法的解釋，所有全國的各機關當然都要在憲法之下才能夠去行使職權。"],["莊委員瑞雄：不然我們就不用採立憲主義，可以不拘束，採帝制就可以不拘束，皇帝下個命令就可以，部長簡單回應一下就好。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們認為死刑是合憲的，我們也是非常高興能維持死刑這個制度，我們也是尊重憲法法庭的判決，就是個案犯罪情節屬最嚴重以及要嚴密的法律程序，所以我們都尊重憲法法庭的判決意思，但在個案中我們還是會請求要求具體求刑，如果犯罪情節屬最嚴重，我們會求處死刑。"],["莊委員瑞雄：世紀爭論的一個問題在社會產生波瀾很正常，各有立場，你們就好好去堅持，沒有人可以講你們對還是不對，就是說理，就這麼簡單嘛！你說在野黨主張廢死的合不合理？我也認為他講得非常有道理啊！你要把它踩住，你認為讓整個法律的正當程序更嚴謹的話，沒有什麼不對啦！好不好？一起加油啦！"],["主席：下一位我們請鍾佳濱委員發言，待會謝龍介委員發言完畢之後，我們休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":156,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-3","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","鍾佳濱","謝龍介","吳思瑤","羅智強","翁曉玲","陳俊宇","王鴻薇","林淑芬","傅崐萁","楊瓊瓔","廖偉翔","牛煦庭","洪孟楷","林思銘"],"page_start":89,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1138001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署、衛生福利部率所屬相關單位列席就「憲法法庭\n113年度憲判字第8號判決宣示相關法令之檢討與修正」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138001_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}