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案"},{"start":149.926,"end":165.659,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修"},{"start":179.062,"end":208.19,"text":"還是他報上來給你多少你就全部都照單全收因為這個部分還是要如果我們中央要補助還是要按何時來處理但是這個難度很高我問你嘛你中央要不要去看嘛要不要要不要審核要要嘛齁對那我想請問一下你們能力夠不夠絕對不夠不夠絕對不夠你認為如果每個縣市都要這樣子你們要增加多少人力"},{"start":210.643,"end":232.041,"text":"大概估一下就好這個變成各縣市當然至少要增加3、5個人吧3、5個人就做得到每個縣市來喔你再說3、5個人你做得到欸我也當過民政局長欸你做得到然後中間都不會有弊端"},{"start":233.188,"end":234.309,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案案"},{"start":251.087,"end":280.078,"text":"我們現在代理主席的他也當過地方行政首長啊對不對他如果要宣布他所管轄的地方所有的都免費他有沒有這個權責有有嘛對不對那你如果這樣的情況照這個法律我們不是反對只是中央第一個沒有這個能力第二個你遏制了地方自治的基本精神對不對而且我再請問一下"},{"start":281.465,"end":300.776,"text":"四人擬具:「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案�"},{"start":307.401,"end":308.882,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案案案件"},{"start":329.405,"end":341.755,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第17次全體委員會第18次全體委員"},{"start":351.617,"end":368.243,"text":"對啦我擔心的就是這個啦我們不是說中立說如果確實有需要的其實在地方在社會救助的部分地方都有處理了啦那我們如何去放框去什麼的我覺得可以討論但如果說錢全部都中央我覺得這個會亂掉啦"},{"start":370.506,"end":376.288,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文"},{"start":389.554,"end":408.189,"text":"對啦齁我覺得齁這個齁大家等一下可以思考一下另外齁我想齁就今天這個啊我想請問一下這個國土署署長啊齁欸欸欸市長先不要跑寵物的殯葬是內政部管的嗎?"},{"start":410.013,"end":411.616,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案。"},{"start":420.165,"end":433.034,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正"},{"start":446.994,"end":452.581,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條"},{"start":465.472,"end":470.055,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條"},{"start":481.63,"end":491.84,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第17次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第"},{"start":504.051,"end":510.638,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條"},{"start":526.397,"end":531.561,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文"},{"start":543.772,"end":546.433,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案案 案例第1、2、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、12、13、14、14、15、15、16、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、35、36、36、37、38、39、40、41、42、43、44、45、45、46、46、47、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50"},{"start":562.554,"end":588.827,"text":"我跟妳講齁寵物的這個東西我認為要解決啦阿也不是馬上要解決但是一定要跟國土署這邊有商量才可以處理同樣的我就是要今天的都市計畫要修正像這個問題如果地方就說可以了那你們中央要審阿十天內沒有審我們地方就可以了阿這樣你怎麼辦你可以管嗎因為過去的經驗來講"},{"start":590.751,"end":618.561,"text":"有爭議案件都不可能是這樣子來處理這樣反而會造成這個案子為什麼會延後嚴重落後其實有些委員會認為那既然要扛這個責任他不如把他全案退回那反而會讓整個事情變得更難處理我就簡單的說舉這個例子嘛對不對那如果殯葬管理有的縣市政府說都市計畫內的土地可以用啊在住宅區旁邊就有啊你國土署要也沒有辦法表示意見那以後台灣的"},{"start":619.793,"end":621.715,"text":"一條之一條之一條文修正草案案"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-07T10:19:23+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T10:19:40.421500+08:00","text":"請部長跟管理殯葬業務的司長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-07T10:19:40.421500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T10:19:57.843000+08:00","text":"好，請部長和殯葬管理的宗教及禮制司司長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-07T10:19:57.843000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T10:19:57.963000+08:00","text":"張委員好。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-07T10:19:57.963000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T10:20:03.687600+08:00","text":"司長，我想請問一下，殯跟葬有什麼區別？","quality":0.062},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-07T10:20:03.687600+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T10:20:09.412200+08:00","text":"按照殯葬管理條例第一條跟第二條的規定，裡面有包括設施、設備，包括火葬場或者是納骨塔等等，但是也有包括殯葬禮儀的部分，所以它一整套下來，其實是非常一個繁複的程序。","quality":0.137},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-07T10:20:09.412200+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T10:20:15.136800+08:00","text":"我知道，所以我想請問司長殯跟葬的區別，你簡單說一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林司長清淇","start":"2024-10-07T10:20:15.136800+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T10:20:20.861400+08:00","text":"殯主要是殯儀的部分；葬當然就是最後殯儀完成之後的入土或是入塔，這個部分叫做葬。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-07T10:20:20.861400+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T10:20:26.586000+08:00","text":"兩者不一樣嘛！對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-07T10:20:26.586000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T10:20:27.326000+08:00","text":"所以殯葬管理條例其實是兩個部分合在一起，對不對？是。","quality":0.304},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-07T10:20:27.326000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T10:20:28.326000+08:00","text":"好，我再請問司長，今天很多的委員希望低收入戶跟中低收入戶能有補助，各縣市政府有沒有這樣做了？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林司長清淇","start":"2024-10-07T10:20:28.326000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T10:20:29.326000+08:00","text":"低收入戶的部分，基本上我們現在的殯葬管理條例就變成強制各縣市政府要配合辦理；至於中低的部分，因為各縣市政府是依據它的財政狀況還有……","quality":0.098},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-07T10:20:29.326000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T10:20:30.326000+08:00","text":"你就只要回答我各縣市政府有沒有做了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林司長清淇","start":"2024-10-07T10:20:30.326000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T10:20:31.326000+08:00","text":"有部分做了。有嘛！對。有嘛！是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-07T10:20:31.326000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T10:20:32.326000+08:00","text":"我只要你回答這一句，有嘛！","quality":0.091},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-07T10:20:32.326000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T10:20:33.326000+08:00","text":"對不對？是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-07T10:20:33.326000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T10:20:34.326000+08:00","text":"再來，我想請問一下，各地方縣市政府做的標準有沒有一樣？","quality":0.083},{"speaker":"林司長清淇","start":"2024-10-07T10:20:31.490000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T10:20:31.490000+08:00","text":"不一樣。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-07T10:20:31.490000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T10:20:59.463000+08:00","text":"厲害的、能力夠的縣市政府，就做得比較多，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-07T10:20:59.463000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T10:21:27.436000+08:00","text":"或是它重視這一塊的，就做得比較多，對不對？對。","quality":0.053},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-07T10:21:27.436000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T10:21:55.409000+08:00","text":"所以我們也不反對你把中低收入戶等等的納進來或什麼的，但這是各縣市政府每個縣市首長他的施政重點，若他想要對這一塊加強，那也是他的政績，也跟每個人的作風不一樣，對不對？是。","quality":0.039},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-07T10:21:55.409000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T10:22:23.382000+08:00","text":"好，如果今天我們照這個法條通過，然後有不足的部分還要中央補助，我想先請問一下司長，地方報上來的補助，你們要不要看一下？","quality":0.075},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-07T10:22:23.382000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T10:22:25.303000+08:00","text":"還是它報上來多少，你就全部照單全收？","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"林司長清淇","start":"2024-10-07T10:22:28.524000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T10:22:33.285000+08:00","text":"如果我們中央要補助，還是要核實來處理，但是這個難度很高啦！","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-07T10:22:35.446000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T10:22:40.347000+08:00","text":"我問你，中央要不要去看、去審核？要。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-07T10:22:42.368000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T10:22:47.589000+08:00","text":"我想請問一下，你們人力夠不夠？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"林司長清淇","start":"2024-10-07T10:22:47.589000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T10:22:47.889000+08:00","text":"絕對不夠。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-07T10:22:47.889000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T10:22:51.170000+08:00","text":"你認為如果每個縣市都要這樣子，你們要增加多少人力？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-07T10:22:53.643000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T10:22:54.604000+08:00","text":"大概估一下就好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林司長清淇","start":"2024-10-07T10:22:57.326000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T10:23:00.669000+08:00","text":"各縣市當然至少要增加三、五個人！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-07T10:23:02.110000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T10:23:02.811000+08:00","text":"三、五個人就做得到？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-07T10:23:03.651000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T10:23:04.932000+08:00","text":"每個縣市喔！","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-07T10:23:05.713000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T10:23:07.434000+08:00","text":"再三、五個人就做得到？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-07T10:23:08.635000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T10:23:12.999000+08:00","text":"我也當過民政局長，你做得到？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-07T10:23:13.740000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T10:23:15.021000+08:00","text":"然後中間都不會有弊端？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林司長清淇","start":"2024-10-07T10:23:15.021000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T10:23:24.554000+08:00","text":"這樣當然沒辦法，因為這個部分是很難去深究的。對嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-07T10:23:24.554000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T10:23:34.087000+08:00","text":"所以中央管的是方向，地方的權責就是地方要去做，然後每個縣市首長做得不一樣，對不對？對。","quality":0.026},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-07T10:23:34.087000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T10:23:47.032000+08:00","text":"像我們現在的代理主席，（黃委員建賓）他也當過地方行政首長，如果他要宣布所管轄的地方所有的人都免費，他有沒有這個權責？有。有嘛！","quality":0.836},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-07T10:23:49.133000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T10:24:01.997000+08:00","text":"如果是這樣的情況，按照這個法令，我們不是反對，只是中央的部分，第一個，沒有這個能力；第二個，你遏制了地方自治的基本精神，對不對？是。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-07T10:24:01.997000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T10:24:02.997000+08:00","text":"而且我再請問一下，各縣市政府不管是社會局或社會科，對於殯葬管理條例今天所提到的，是不是很多的縣市政府都有補助了？","quality":0.269},{"speaker":"林司長清淇","start":"2024-10-07T10:24:02.997000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T10:24:03.997000+08:00","text":"社會救助他們就有一些補助了。有嘛！","quality":0.067},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-07T10:24:03.997000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T10:24:04.997000+08:00","text":"都有補助了，對不對？對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-07T10:24:04.997000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T10:24:05.997000+08:00","text":"社會救助的科目跟我們今天所要審的殯葬管理條例的科目有沒有一樣？","quality":0.233},{"speaker":"林司長清淇","start":"2024-10-07T10:24:05.997000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T10:24:06.997000+08:00","text":"有喪葬的費用。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-07T10:24:06.997000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T10:24:07.997000+08:00","text":"但支出的科目有沒有一樣？","quality":0.091},{"speaker":"林司長清淇","start":"2024-10-07T10:24:07.327000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T10:24:07.327000+08:00","text":"不一樣。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-07T10:24:07.527000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T10:24:08.707000+08:00","text":"殯葬管理條例在地方上應該是民政局負責？是。","quality":0.316},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-07T10:24:08.707000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T10:24:25.234500+08:00","text":"所以科目不一樣吧？對。","quality":0.111},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-07T10:24:25.234500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T10:24:41.762000+08:00","text":"科目是完全不一樣的，所以今天如果這樣下去，地方會大亂，會不會？","quality":0.074},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-07T10:24:41.762000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T10:24:58.289500+08:00","text":"部長，地方會大亂嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-07T10:24:58.289500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T10:25:14.817000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我們已經跟22個縣市地方政府尋求過意見，確實裡面沒有一個是完全贊成的，幾乎都是加諸非常多的條件，也就是說，他們的民政單位跟社政單位，兩邊的意見都不同，所以我們在整合上確實碰到很大的困擾，所以如果倉促入法的話，也會造成地方各縣市地方大亂。對啦！","quality":0.044},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-07T10:25:14.817000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T10:25:16.258000+08:00","text":"我擔心的就是這個。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-07T10:25:17.998000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T10:25:23.841000+08:00","text":"中低收入戶如果確實是有需要的，其實在社會救助的部分。","quality":0.792},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-07T10:25:24.321000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T10:25:31.223000+08:00","text":"地方都有處理了，至於我們如何去放寬或是什麼的，我覺得可以討論，但如果錢全部都中央支出，我覺得這個會亂掉啦！","quality":0.854},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-07T10:25:31.223000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T10:25:53.115000+08:00","text":"對，也就是說，未來是由衛福部支出，還是由內政部民政單位支出，確實會造成很大的紊亂，也就是說，如果你沒有考慮到社會救助法，或者是一般公益團體願意協助的部分的話，反而會造成經費重複補貼，這個就一定會觸法。對！","quality":0.033},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-07T10:25:53.115000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T10:25:56.097000+08:00","text":"我覺得這個大家等一下可以思考一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-07T10:25:56.317000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T10:26:11.189000+08:00","text":"另外，就今天這個部分，我想請問一下國土署署長，司長先不要下去，請問寵物的殯葬是歸內政部管的嗎？","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2024-10-07T10:26:11.189000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T10:26:19.764833+08:00","text":"不是，是農業部。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-07T10:26:19.764833+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T10:26:28.340667+08:00","text":"你們是管人嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-07T10:26:28.340667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T10:26:36.916500+08:00","text":"對不對？對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-07T10:26:36.916500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T10:26:45.492333+08:00","text":"如果是寵物，目前來講是依廢棄物清理法，司長，是不是？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林司長清淇","start":"2024-10-07T10:26:45.492333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T10:26:54.068167+08:00","text":"寵物目前當然是農業部在管，但是一般的動物屍體是屬於廢棄物的部分。","quality":0.033},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-07T10:26:54.068167+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T10:27:02.644000+08:00","text":"目前的法令我認為不完善，每個人都把寵物當成寶，然後用廢棄物清理法，大家一聽都會覺得很奇怪，但農業部也有說，要讓這個合法或是什麼的，署長，我們有沒有要配合做土地變更的或有哪些地方可以設置，他們有沒有找你討論過？","quality":0.011},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2024-10-07T10:27:02.644000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T10:27:11.219833+08:00","text":"並沒有。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-07T10:27:11.219833+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T10:27:19.795667+08:00","text":"並沒有？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2024-10-07T10:27:19.795667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T10:27:28.371500+08:00","text":"對，從來都沒有去討論，因為我們目前並沒有談到要針對寵物的部分還要再另行劃設分區。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-07T10:27:28.371500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T10:27:36.947333+08:00","text":"所以目前沒有嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-07T10:27:36.947333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T10:27:45.523167+08:00","text":"所以你們有沒有注意到農業部他們有公告什麼地方、什麼土地分區可以做寵物的納骨塔，你們有沒有注意到？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-07T10:27:45.523167+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T10:27:54.099000+08:00","text":"報告委員，現在有在研商，但是都還沒有確定對外公告，因為到目前為止，我們知道這個是由農業部來主政，農業部如果有提出其他相關需求的話，我們會跟他們一起開會來決定，但是很明確的就是寵物的殯葬不可能跟人的殯葬合在一起。","quality":0.062},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-07T10:27:54.099000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T10:28:02.674833+08:00","text":"沒有錯，但我今天為什麼特別要問這個，你知道嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-07T10:28:02.674833+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T10:28:11.250667+08:00","text":"有的縣市政府有公告非都市計畫裡面的農業區或什麼的，他們有公告可以設置了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-07T10:28:11.250667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T10:28:19.826500+08:00","text":"雖然這好像是農業部的事情，但是回到我們這邊的土地使用分區，這就變成是國土署的事了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-07T10:28:19.826500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T10:28:28.402333+08:00","text":"我今天問這個的意思是，其實這也是一個很重要的事情，我覺得農業部本身要跟我們國土署好好地去研究這個問題，不能這樣子隨隨便便的啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-07T10:28:28.402333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T10:28:36.978167+08:00","text":"署長，你有聽到嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2024-10-07T10:28:36.978167+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T10:28:45.554000+08:00","text":"我知道，因為現在就是變成某些地方政府他們可能只是想用容許使用的項目，但事實上我們到目前都還沒有收到，就是地方政府有在研議，但是我們從來都沒有收到，因為它即使要容許使用，修細則也是要送到我們這邊來。","quality":0.011},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-07T10:28:45.554000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T10:28:48.355000+08:00","text":"我跟你講，寵物的這個部分，我認為要解決啦！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-07T10:28:48.756000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T10:28:55.159000+08:00","text":"也不是馬上要解決，但是一定要跟國土署這邊有商量才可以處理。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-07T10:28:55.539000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T10:29:09.326000+08:00","text":"同樣地，今天的都市計畫法要修正，像這個問題，如果地方說可以了，但你們中央審查後沒有在10天內審核，地方就說這是可以的，這樣你怎麼辦？","quality":0.772},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-07T10:29:09.326000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T10:29:11.227000+08:00","text":"你可以管嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2024-10-07T10:29:11.227000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T10:29:27.476000+08:00","text":"因為過去的經驗來講，有爭議的案件都不可能是這樣子來處理，這樣反而會造成這個案子嚴重落後，其實有些委員會認為，既然要扛這個責任，不如把它全案退回，這反而會讓整個事情變得更難處理。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-07T10:29:28.076000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T10:29:41.541000+08:00","text":"我就簡單地舉這個例子，有的縣市政府說都市計畫內的土地可以用，在住宅區旁邊就有，你國土署也沒有辦法表示意見，那以後臺灣的國土規劃怎麼辦？","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-07T10:29:42.041000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T10:29:45.469571+08:00","text":"署長，你有沒有想過這個問題？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2024-10-07T10:29:45.769571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T10:29:54.912429+08:00","text":"有，所以現在為什麼我們還是都要求地方這部分一定要經過中央通過才可以。","quality":0.031},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-10-07T10:29:55.212429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T10:30:05.498143+08:00","text":"我只是簡單點出這會遇到的幾個問題，等一下要討論法律條文時，我們再好好討論。謝謝。","quality":0.083},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-07T10:30:05.798143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T10:30:07.226714+08:00","text":"謝謝張召委。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-07T10:30:07.526714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T10:30:10.098143+08:00","text":"接下來請王美惠委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-07T10:30:10.398143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T10:30:16.112429+08:00","text":"跟委員會報告，李柏毅委員詢答完之後休息5分鐘。","quality":0}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:19:23 - 10:30:05","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、殯葬管理條例：\n(一)審查委員丁學忠等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(二)審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(三)審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)審查委員許宇甄等18人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(五)審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【詢答及處理；「本案歡迎各直轄市及縣(市)政府提供書面意見」】\n\n二、都市計畫法：\n(一)審查委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(二)審查委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(三)審查委員黃健豪等19人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(五)審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)審查委員林沛祥等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)審查委員廖先翔等16人擬具「都市計畫法第十九條及第八十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【本案僅詢答】）","gazette":{"lineno":363,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（10時19分）請部長跟管理殯葬業務的司長。"],["主席：好，請部長和殯葬管理的宗教及禮制司司長。"],["劉部長世芳：張委員好。"],["張委員宏陸：司長，我想請問一下，殯跟葬有什麼區別？"],["劉部長世芳：按照殯葬管理條例第一條跟第二條的規定，裡面有包括設施、設備，包括火葬場或者是納骨塔等等，但是也有包括殯葬禮儀的部分，所以它一整套下來，其實是非常一個繁複的程序。"],["張委員宏陸：我知道，所以我想請問司長殯跟葬的區別，你簡單說一下。"],["林司長清淇：殯主要是殯儀的部分；葬當然就是最後殯儀完成之後的入土或是入塔，這個部分叫做葬。"],["張委員宏陸：兩者不一樣嘛！"],["林司長清淇：對。"],["張委員宏陸：所以殯葬管理條例其實是兩個部分合在一起，對不對？"],["林司長清淇：是。"],["張委員宏陸：好，我再請問司長，今天很多的委員希望低收入戶跟中低收入戶能有補助，各縣市政府有沒有這樣做了？"],["林司長清淇：低收入戶的部分，基本上我們現在的殯葬管理條例就變成強制各縣市政府要配合辦理；至於中低的部分，因為各縣市政府是依據它的財政狀況還有……"],["張委員宏陸：你就只要回答我各縣市政府有沒有做了。"],["林司長清淇：有部分做了。"],["張委員宏陸：有嘛！"],["林司長清淇：對。"],["張委員宏陸：有嘛！"],["林司長清淇：是。"],["張委員宏陸：我只要你回答這一句，有嘛！對不對？"],["林司長清淇：是。"],["張委員宏陸：再來，我想請問一下，各地方縣市政府做的標準有沒有一樣？"],["林司長清淇：不一樣。"],["張委員宏陸：厲害的、能力夠的縣市政府，就做得比較多，對不對？或是它重視這一塊的，就做得比較多，對不對？"],["林司長清淇：對。"],["張委員宏陸：所以我們也不反對你把中低收入戶等等的納進來或什麼的，但這是各縣市政府每個縣市首長他的施政重點，若他想要對這一塊加強，那也是他的政績，也跟每個人的作風不一樣，對不對？"],["林司長清淇：是。"],["張委員宏陸：好，如果今天我們照這個法條通過，然後有不足的部分還要中央補助，我想先請問一下司長，地方報上來的補助，你們要不要看一下？還是它報上來多少，你就全部照單全收？"],["林司長清淇：如果我們中央要補助，還是要核實來處理，但是這個難度很高啦！"],["張委員宏陸：我問你，中央要不要去看、去審核？"],["林司長清淇：要。"],["張委員宏陸：我想請問一下，你們人力夠不夠？"],["林司長清淇：絕對不夠。"],["張委員宏陸：你認為如果每個縣市都要這樣子，你們要增加多少人力？大概估一下就好。"],["林司長清淇：各縣市當然至少要增加三、五個人！"],["張委員宏陸：三、五個人就做得到？每個縣市喔！再三、五個人就做得到？我也當過民政局長，你做得到？然後中間都不會有弊端？"],["林司長清淇：這樣當然沒辦法，因為這個部分是很難去深究的。"],["張委員宏陸：對嘛！所以中央管的是方向，地方的權責就是地方要去做，然後每個縣市首長做得不一樣，對不對？"],["林司長清淇：對。"],["張委員宏陸：像我們現在的代理主席，（黃委員建賓）他也當過地方行政首長，如果他要宣布所管轄的地方所有的人都免費，他有沒有這個權責？"],["林司長清淇：有。"],["張委員宏陸：有嘛！如果是這樣的情況，按照這個法令，我們不是反對，只是中央的部分，第一個，沒有這個能力；第二個，你遏制了地方自治的基本精神，對不對？"],["林司長清淇：是。"],["張委員宏陸：而且我再請問一下，各縣市政府不管是社會局或社會科，對於殯葬管理條例今天所提到的，是不是很多的縣市政府都有補助了？"],["林司長清淇：社會救助他們就有一些補助了。"],["張委員宏陸：有嘛！都有補助了，對不對？"],["林司長清淇：對。"],["張委員宏陸：社會救助的科目跟我們今天所要審的殯葬管理條例的科目有沒有一樣？"],["林司長清淇：有喪葬的費用。"],["張委員宏陸：但支出的科目有沒有一樣？"],["林司長清淇：不一樣。"],["張委員宏陸：殯葬管理條例在地方上應該是民政局負責？"],["林司長清淇：是。"],["張委員宏陸：所以科目不一樣吧？"],["林司長清淇：對。"],["張委員宏陸：科目是完全不一樣的，所以今天如果這樣下去，地方會大亂，會不會？部長，地方會大亂嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們已經跟22個縣市地方政府尋求過意見，確實裡面沒有一個是完全贊成的，幾乎都是加諸非常多的條件，也就是說，他們的民政單位跟社政單位，兩邊的意見都不同，所以我們在整合上確實碰到很大的困擾，所以如果倉促入法的話，也會造成地方各縣市地方大亂。"],["張委員宏陸：對啦！我擔心的就是這個。中低收入戶如果確實是有需要的，其實在社會救助的部分。地方都有處理了，至於我們如何去放寬或是什麼的，我覺得可以討論，但如果錢全部都中央支出，我覺得這個會亂掉啦！"],["劉部長世芳：對，也就是說，未來是由衛福部支出，還是由內政部民政單位支出，確實會造成很大的紊亂，也就是說，如果你沒有考慮到社會救助法，或者是一般公益團體願意協助的部分的話，反而會造成經費重複補貼，這個就一定會觸法。"],["張委員宏陸：對！我覺得這個大家等一下可以思考一下。","另外，就今天這個部分，我想請問一下國土署署長，司長先不要下去，請問寵物的殯葬是歸內政部管的嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：不是，是農業部。"],["張委員宏陸：你們是管人嘛！對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["張委員宏陸：如果是寵物，目前來講是依廢棄物清理法，司長，是不是？"],["林司長清淇：寵物目前當然是農業部在管，但是一般的動物屍體是屬於廢棄物的部分。"],["張委員宏陸：目前的法令我認為不完善，每個人都把寵物當成寶，然後用廢棄物清理法，大家一聽都會覺得很奇怪，但農業部也有說，要讓這個合法或是什麼的，署長，我們有沒有要配合做土地變更的或有哪些地方可以設置，他們有沒有找你討論過？"],["吳署長欣修：並沒有。"],["張委員宏陸：並沒有？"],["吳署長欣修：對，從來都沒有去討論，因為我們目前並沒有談到要針對寵物的部分還要再另行劃設分區。"],["張委員宏陸：所以目前沒有嘛！所以你們有沒有注意到農業部他們有公告什麼地方、什麼土地分區可以做寵物的納骨塔，你們有沒有注意到？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，現在有在研商，但是都還沒有確定對外公告，因為到目前為止，我們知道這個是由農業部來主政，農業部如果有提出其他相關需求的話，我們會跟他們一起開會來決定，但是很明確的就是寵物的殯葬不可能跟人的殯葬合在一起。"],["張委員宏陸：沒有錯，但我今天為什麼特別要問這個，你知道嗎？有的縣市政府有公告非都市計畫裡面的農業區或什麼的，他們有公告可以設置了！雖然這好像是農業部的事情，但是回到我們這邊的土地使用分區，這就變成是國土署的事了。我今天問這個的意思是，其實這也是一個很重要的事情，我覺得農業部本身要跟我們國土署好好地去研究這個問題，不能這樣子隨隨便便的啦！署長，你有聽到嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：我知道，因為現在就是變成某些地方政府他們可能只是想用容許使用的項目，但事實上我們到目前都還沒有收到，就是地方政府有在研議，但是我們從來都沒有收到，因為它即使要容許使用，修細則也是要送到我們這邊來。"],["張委員宏陸：我跟你講，寵物的這個部分，我認為要解決啦！也不是馬上要解決，但是一定要跟國土署這邊有商量才可以處理。同樣地，今天的都市計畫法要修正，像這個問題，如果地方說可以了，但你們中央審查後沒有在10天內審核，地方就說這是可以的，這樣你怎麼辦？你可以管嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：因為過去的經驗來講，有爭議的案件都不可能是這樣子來處理，這樣反而會造成這個案子嚴重落後，其實有些委員會認為，既然要扛這個責任，不如把它全案退回，這反而會讓整個事情變得更難處理。"],["張委員宏陸：我就簡單地舉這個例子，有的縣市政府說都市計畫內的土地可以用，在住宅區旁邊就有，你國土署也沒有辦法表示意見，那以後臺灣的國土規劃怎麼辦？署長，你有沒有想過這個問題？"],["吳署長欣修：有，所以現在為什麼我們還是都要求地方這部分一定要經過中央通過才可以。"],["張委員宏陸：我只是簡單點出這會遇到的幾個問題，等一下要討論法律條文時，我們再好好討論。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張召委。","接下來請王美惠委員。","跟委員會報告，李柏毅委員詢答完之後休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":164,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-3","speakers":["徐欣瑩","張嘉郡","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","王育敏","丁學忠","許宇甄","廖先翔","林沛祥","黃健豪","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","黃建賓","張宏陸","李柏毅","黃捷","牛煦庭","黃國昌","李坤城","吳琪銘","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","廖偉翔","高金素梅","傅崐萁"],"page_start":87,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1137901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、殯葬管理條例：(一)審查委員丁學忠等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草\n案」案、( 二 ) 審查委員張嘉郡等29 人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、\n(三)審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委\n員許宇甄等18人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員羅廷瑋等\n17 人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、 ( 六 ) 審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai\nTahovecahe 等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案；二、都市計畫法：\n(一)審查委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)審查委員\n楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)審查委員黃健豪等19人\n擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「都市計\n畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三\n條之一條文修正草案」案、(六)審查委員林沛祥等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十五條條文修正草\n案」案、( 七 ) 審查委員廖先翔等16 人擬具「都市計畫法第十九條及第八十二條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案【本案僅詢\n答】","agenda_id":"1137901_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}