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彭部長本期持續關心也是國人所重視的議題就是碳費的一個部分那說今天有可能省議委員會做出最終的一個確認是不是就是優惠費率的部分會做出一個建議的方案好那今天確定是最後一次嗎還會不會有可能會再延期我希望他因為其實希望他們有收斂不要再開了因為每次都開個四五個小時非常長"},{"start":41.957,"end":58.146,"text":"是,因為每一次本來講是說今年上半年度就會把所有的一個費率的方案給確認嘛那但是現在也到今年的10月了嘛那如果說再下去的話我們到底什麼時候開徵以及什麼時候標準訂出遙遙無期我想這也不是我們政府所需要的一個方向"},{"start":58.846,"end":77.796,"text":"所以今天沒有辦法確定是不是最後一次?有沒有信心?我當然有信心啊就是說其實我也透過很多的方式跟大眾還有業界溝通還有產業NGO環保溝通目前的這個共識是已經非常的足夠啦但是我相信各位委員看到這兩天的媒體"},{"start":79.818,"end":98.797,"text":"兩邊還是有一段的這個蠻大的差距當然因為最主要就是希望有大家都希望是讓台灣的環境越來越好啦我想這也是我們永續經營發展的主要方向跟目標那可是我們不能口惠實不至啊到現在來講是說碳費的自主減量優惠到底是可樂價還是礦泉水價"},{"start":100.729,"end":116.267,"text":"還是講不清?我們到最後會落在什麼樣的一個基準點?他們今天要討論我不能去干涉他們啦但是我必須最後的結果是由我簽字來發布的那你的預期會不會到最後討論出來之後不符合你的預期你不發布?"},{"start":117.668,"end":140.625,"text":"我會尊重這個審議委員會的決定是對那目前其實委員那個可樂價或是什麼水價其實部分因為其實整個管制之後像歐盟他都有一個比較優惠的這個費率會出來其實大家都差不多啦大家都差不多啦所以我們不要用那樣方式因為他企業如果要得到自主減量計畫得到那個優惠他要花更多錢欸"},{"start":141.365,"end":160.479,"text":"他要花更多成本嘛,我們希望是說提供誘因嘛,我們提供這個比較優惠的費率是希望提供誘因讓企業自主管理減量,減量之後他可以符合等於是說他先付出其他的成本企業成本來達到標準而藉此比較降低付出比較低的一個費率"},{"start":160.959,"end":188.104,"text":"那如果說他不願意付出那樣的一個成本那他就要付比較高的費率嗎?沒錯其實概念是這樣但是再怎麼樣你的那個價格還是要有一定的標準啊就美國這邊來講說他們的外部成本每增加一公噸的這樣的一個排碳的一個費用外部成本要五千七百多塊台幣欸報告委員這個其實齁如果我們現在要說碳捕捉碳封存那個成本都很貴的啦是所以我們這兩個是沒有辦法這樣做比擬的啦"},{"start":188.803,"end":190.164,"text":"我們現在是2025年說希望能夠減排10%為一個目標,你覺得有可能達到嗎?"},{"start":209.517,"end":226.777,"text":"那要不要修正還是我們現在10%目標要什麼時候可以達成我們目前其實在研議因為2025年的目標其實過去各位可以委員可以看到2022年的數字我們跟2005年只有減了1.8左右是其實是不夠這也是媒體大家都在講嗎"},{"start":227.438,"end":252.538,"text":"就是說過去10多年來我們努力了那麼久但反而是背道而馳我們的火力發電更加的多能源政策很多的因素但重點在於是說2002年跟2005年比較1.8%那我們只剩1年多的時間我們說要減10%剛剛部長你也承認了很有難度那就代表說這樣的一個計畫這樣的一個目標是空中樓閣"},{"start":254.987,"end":260.595,"text":"2025年可以達到多少?這個我還不知道沒辦法沒辦法預期那10%什麼時候能夠達到?因為如果說我們連10%都講不出來什麼時候達到那我們2030、2040甚至2050淨零碳排"},{"start":269.534,"end":272.595,"text":"打得成嗎?火力發電或是藍媒算不算是這個排堂的大宗?"},{"start":288.141,"end":310.862,"text":"蘭梅發電 燃氣比燃煤少了大概三分之一它是一個過渡型的能源本席在之前經濟委員會以及相關委員會也都有詢問過台電本席的選區跟我們龜山桃園地區這個臨近的選區林口火力發電廠現在是蘭梅發電三部機組火力全開每一次你隨時上台電官網的時候基本上都是90幾%的發電"},{"start":312.583,"end":336.348,"text":"那我們問你既然藍媒是大宗也真的是跟現在世界趨勢背道而馳那什麼時候你退場機制?民進黨政府有核電廠的退場機制那是你民進黨政府現在執政的一個政策方向雖然國際趨勢已經不是告訴你這樣子可是你們一直在一而再再而三有核電電廠的退場機制那我們現在要問的是那藍媒電廠的退場機制"},{"start":338.237,"end":361.568,"text":"部長這個是經濟部在規劃的啦齁那我看到他們你剛講了嘛你2025年10%你達不成達不到那你也講是說能源轉型是大家都要一起來做的那環境部現在在管的就是氣候變遷就是淨零碳排那你們也說了能源排碳這個燃煤發電是排碳大戶"},{"start":363.271,"end":387.983,"text":"那不是應該要來去做討論嗎?那你是不是應該也要要求說說那這樣子台電你的林口火力發電廠燃煤你要不要轉型?還是你要退場?我們的確是有給這個台電設定一些排蛋係數的規劃希望他們可以更積極來進行的確是有在進行但是但是你委員你說的什麼燃煤退場的部分我現在還沒有看到相關的規劃"},{"start":388.783,"end":417.361,"text":"是因為經濟部台電雙手一攤跟你講說2035以前我的林口火力發電廠還是一樣是燃煤阿他就是雙手一攤阿這才是問題的所在阿部長今天的問題在於是說你自己也承認了我們現在全部大家也都希望是往這樣子的一個減碳的一個方向但是你們民進黨政府不要說你們啦民進黨政府能源政策他就是跟世界趨勢背道而馳也跟我們現在的方向背道而馳嘛"},{"start":418.402,"end":434.532,"text":"那所以說你才會做得那麼辛苦啊說真的我都覺得你委屈了2025年10%答不到跳票是你的責任但是答不到之後那怎麼辦呢那還有如果2025年10%都答不到你說2030年那時候預計要幾%24加減1是25%答得到嗎"},{"start":440.59,"end":455.17,"text":"現在目前我們正在規劃要大的轉型有機會那到那個時候抱歉喔不知道您還有沒有在這個這個位置上啊那如果達不到大家雙手一攤現在那時候的政府是不是還是現在政府不知道那大家雙手一攤那台灣還是台灣啊"},{"start":458.919,"end":474.972,"text":"部長拜託我真的在這個官位上說實話說真話真的把一些還在裝睡的人叫醒這個是本期給我們專業至少認為說還有專業的部長一些呼籲跟期待好不好謝謝委員謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-07T11:31:38.512000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:31:40.501000+08:00","text":"主席，謝謝，麻煩請環境部彭部長。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-07T11:31:40.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:31:44.509000+08:00","text":"請彭部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-07T11:31:44.509000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:31:44.749000+08:00","text":"洪委員早。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-07T11:31:45.429000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:31:55.812000+08:00","text":"彭部長，本席要持續關心，這也是國人重視的議題，就是碳費的部分，今天審議委員會有可能做出最終確認，是不是？","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-07T11:31:56.193000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:31:59.634000+08:00","text":"優惠費率的部分可能會做出建議方案。好。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-07T11:32:00.294000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:32:03.075000+08:00","text":"今天確定是最後一次嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-07T11:32:04.115000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:32:04.475000+08:00","text":"是否會再延期？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-07T11:32:05.976000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:32:07.476000+08:00","text":"其實我們是希望他們收斂意見啦！","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-07T11:32:07.476000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:32:10.517000+08:00","text":"不要再開了，因為每次都開四、五個小時，時間非常長。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-07T11:32:12.318000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:32:22.343000+08:00","text":"本來說今年上半年度就會確認所有的費率方案，現在已經10月，如果再討論下去，到底什麼時候開徵？","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-07T11:32:22.723000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:32:23.324000+08:00","text":"什麼時候可以訂出標準？","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-07T11:32:24.484000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:32:27.126000+08:00","text":"現在看來可以說遙遙無期，這也不是政府樂見的方向。","quality":0.591},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-07T11:32:27.846000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:32:30.527000+08:00","text":"所以今天沒有辦法確定是不是最後一次？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-07T11:32:32.448000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:32:32.929000+08:00","text":"有沒有信心？部長。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-07T11:32:33.389000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:32:34.189000+08:00","text":"我當然有信心啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-07T11:32:35.490000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:32:50.880000+08:00","text":"其實我也透過很多方式和大眾及業界溝通，還有產業界、NGO、環保團體，目前的共識已經非常足夠，但是我相信各位委員也有看到這兩天的媒體報導，其實兩邊還是有一段滿大的差距。當然。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-07T11:32:53.943000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:32:56.225000+08:00","text":"大家都希望讓臺灣的環境越來越好啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-07T11:32:56.906000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:33:02.312000+08:00","text":"這也是我們永續經營發展的主要方向和目標，可是我們不能口惠實不至啊！","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-07T11:33:02.812000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:33:14.795000+08:00","text":"到現在為止，碳費的自主減量優惠到底是可樂價還是礦泉水價還是講不清楚，最後我們會落在什麼樣的基準點？","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-07T11:33:14.795000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:33:16.877000+08:00","text":"這是他們今天要討論的，我不能去干涉他們啦！","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-07T11:33:17.058000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:33:19.701000+08:00","text":"但最後的結果是由我簽字發布，外面說什麼……","quality":0.722},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-07T11:33:22.664000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:33:25.247000+08:00","text":"會不會到時候討論出來的結果不符合你的預期，所以你不發布？","quality":0.731},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-07T11:33:26.668000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:33:28.890000+08:00","text":"我會尊重審議委員會的決定。","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-07T11:33:31.292000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:33:43.560000+08:00","text":"至於委員說的可樂價或是水價，因為整個管制之後，像歐盟它也有一個比較優惠的費率，其實大家的做法都差不多啦！","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-07T11:33:43.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:33:49.625000+08:00","text":"所以我們不要用那樣的方式，因為企業如果想要得到自主減量計畫的優惠，其實他們要花更多錢耶！","quality":0.829},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-07T11:33:50.365000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:33:51.386000+08:00","text":"他們要花更多成本嘛！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-07T11:33:51.586000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:33:52.987000+08:00","text":"我們是希望提供誘因。對。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-07T11:33:53.828000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:34:00.813000+08:00","text":"我們提供比較優惠的費率，提供誘因讓企業自主管理減量，減量之後才能符合規定。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-07T11:34:01.273000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:34:14.580000+08:00","text":"等於是先付出其他企業成本來達到標準，藉此降低排放量，也付出比較低的費率，如果不願意付出那樣的成本，那就要付比較高的費率嘛！沒錯。","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-07T11:34:14.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:34:15.680000+08:00","text":"概念是這樣。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-07T11:34:15.680000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:34:19.021000+08:00","text":"但是再怎麼樣，那個價格還是要有一定的標準啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-07T11:34:19.481000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:34:27.542000+08:00","text":"就美國來說，每增加1公噸的排碳量，他們的外部成本就要臺幣五千七百多元。","quality":0.581},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-07T11:34:31.123000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:34:34.103000+08:00","text":"現在說到碳捕捉、碳封存，那個成本都很貴啦！","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-07T11:34:34.684000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:34:37.084000+08:00","text":"所以這兩個沒有辦法這樣比擬的啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-07T11:34:37.084000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:34:38.084000+08:00","text":"雖然沒有辦法這樣比擬，但你們至少要有一個參考標準嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-07T11:34:38.084000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:34:39.084000+08:00","text":"不然美國環境署也不會發布這樣的訊息。","quality":0},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-07T11:34:39.084000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:34:40.084000+08:00","text":"那個是……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-07T11:34:37.803000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:34:38.664000+08:00","text":"我們拉回來說，部長，我們現在是希望2025年能夠減排10%，以這個做為目標。","quality":0.536},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-07T11:34:38.864000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:34:39.164000+08:00","text":"有可能達到嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-07T11:34:39.164000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:34:59.238000+08:00","text":"對，這是第二階段管制目標，我認為有點難度啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-07T11:34:59.238000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:34:59.658000+08:00","text":"要不要修正？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-07T11:35:01.901000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:35:03.783000+08:00","text":"減量10%的目標什麼時候可以達成？","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-07T11:35:04.023000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:35:07.888000+08:00","text":"其實我們目前也在研議，因為達到2025年的目標有點難度。","quality":0.591},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-07T11:35:09.590000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:35:14.896000+08:00","text":"委員可以看到2022年的數字，和2005年相比只減少1.8%左右，其實這是不夠的。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-07T11:35:14.896000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:35:26.326000+08:00","text":"是，這也是媒體和大家都在說的，過去十多年來，我們努力了那麼久，結果反而背道而馳，我們的火力發電量更多，還包括能源政策等很多因素的影響。","quality":0.767},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-07T11:35:26.947000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:35:41.538000+08:00","text":"但重點是，2022年和2005年相比只差1.8%，現在我們只剩一年多的時間，但是要減10%，剛才部長也承認很有難度，代表這樣的計畫、目標是空中樓閣。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-07T11:35:43.987000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:35:44.888000+08:00","text":"2025年可以達到多少？","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-07T11:35:45.789000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:35:46.210000+08:00","text":"我還不知道，因為會非常辛苦。","quality":0.417},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-07T11:35:46.751000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:35:47.011000+08:00","text":"沒辦法預期？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-07T11:35:47.071000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:35:47.992000+08:00","text":"那10%的目標什麼時候能夠達到？","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-07T11:35:47.992000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:35:48.992000+08:00","text":"目前我們……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-07T11:35:48.253000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:35:59.374000+08:00","text":"如果連10%都說不出來什麼時候可以達到，那我們2030年、2040年、甚至是2050年的淨零碳排，能夠達成嗎？","quality":0.694},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-07T11:35:59.374000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:36:00.374000+08:00","text":"能源轉型是一個長期的工作，絕對不是一年就可以做到，我們現在也正在盤點，包括由上而下、由下而上的盤點都在做，我們的確有提出一些挑戰的目標。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-07T11:35:59.374000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:36:01.575000+08:00","text":"火力發電或是燃煤發電算不算排碳的大宗？","quality":0.722},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-07T11:36:18.462000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:36:22.206000+08:00","text":"燃煤是，燃氣比燃煤大概少了三分之一，它是一個過渡型的能源。","quality":0.808},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-07T11:36:22.706000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:36:39.842000+08:00","text":"本席之前在經濟委員會及相關委員會也有詢問過台電，本席的選區，包括龜山、桃園等地，都鄰近林口火力發電廠，那裡現在是燃煤發電，而且三部機組火力全開，你可以隨時上台電官網查詢，基本上發電量都是百分之九十幾。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-07T11:36:41.743000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:36:49.625000+08:00","text":"所以我們就要問了，既然燃煤是大宗，也真的和現在的世界趨勢背道而馳，那什麼時候有退場機制？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-07T11:36:49.625000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:36:51.045000+08:00","text":"這個要……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-07T11:36:51.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:37:08.558000+08:00","text":"民進黨政府有提出核電廠的退場機制，這是民進黨政府現在的政策方向，雖然國際趨勢已經不是這樣告訴你們，可是你們一而再、再而三強調核電電廠的退場機制，我們現在要問的是燃煤電廠的退場機制，部長。","quality":0.884},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-07T11:37:08.558000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:37:11.299000+08:00","text":"這個是經濟部在規劃的，我們看到他們其實……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-07T11:37:11.919000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:37:35.172000+08:00","text":"但是您剛才說了，2025年減量10%無法達成，做不到，你也說能源轉型是大家都要一起做的，環境部現在管的就是氣候變遷、淨零碳排，你們也說燃煤發電是排碳大戶，那麼這部分不是應該討論嗎？","quality":0.816},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-07T11:37:35.312000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:37:36.353000+08:00","text":"你們是不是也應該要求？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-07T11:37:37.954000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:37:40.875000+08:00","text":"台電的林口火力發電廠是用燃煤的方式，要不要轉型？","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-07T11:37:43.376000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:37:44.597000+08:00","text":"還是要求退場？部長。有。","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-07T11:37:44.597000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:37:56.983000+08:00","text":"我們的確是有給台電設定一些排碳係數規劃，希望他們可以更積極進行，這部分的確有在進行，但是委員說的燃煤發電退場部分，我現在還沒有看到相關規劃。","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-07T11:37:58.303000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:38:08.850000+08:00","text":"因為經濟部、台電雙手一攤告訴你，2035年以前，林口火力發電廠還是一樣要燃煤，他們就是雙手一攤，這才是問題所在。","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-07T11:38:08.850000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:38:11.072000+08:00","text":"有的會更改成……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-07T11:38:11.072000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:38:20.638000+08:00","text":"部長，今天的問題在於，你自己也承認了，現在大家都希望朝減碳的方向走，但是民進黨政府，不要說你們啦！","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-07T11:38:20.938000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:38:26.341000+08:00","text":"民進黨政府的能源政策就是和世界趨勢背道而馳，也和我們現在的方向背道而馳嘛！","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-07T11:38:27.582000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:38:29.063000+08:00","text":"所以你才會做的那麼辛苦啊！","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-07T11:38:29.824000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:38:35.067000+08:00","text":"說真的，本席都覺得你委屈了，因為2025年減量10%達不到，到時候跳票就是你的責任。","quality":0.656},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-07T11:38:35.067000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:38:36.948000+08:00","text":"是大家的責任。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-07T11:38:36.948000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:38:38.969000+08:00","text":"但是這個目標達不到，之後怎麼辦呢？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-07T11:38:39.569000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:38:43.011000+08:00","text":"還有，如果2025年減量10%都達不到，2030年預計要減量百分之多少？","quality":0.565},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-07T11:38:43.092000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:38:43.152000+08:00","text":"24%加減1%。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-07T11:38:43.152000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:38:43.532000+08:00","text":"是，25%，能夠達到嗎？","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-07T11:38:49.751000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:38:52.674000+08:00","text":"目前我們正在規劃做大的轉型，有機會達到。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-07T11:38:52.835000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:39:02.027000+08:00","text":"抱歉，那個時候不知道您是否還在這個位置上，也不曉得是否還是現在的政府，因為大家只會雙手一攤表示做不到。","quality":0.489},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-07T11:39:03.789000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:39:04.150000+08:00","text":"但臺灣還是臺灣啊！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-10-07T11:39:07.919000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:39:23.952000+08:00","text":"拜託部長，在這個官位上真的要說實話、說真話，要把一些還在裝睡的人叫醒，給我們認為至少還具備專業的部長一些呼籲和期待，好不好？謝謝。","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2024-10-07T11:39:23.952000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:39:23.972000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員，謝謝。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-07T11:39:24.472000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:39:27.043429+08:00","text":"謝謝洪委員，謝謝部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-07T11:39:27.343429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:39:30.486286+08:00","text":"接下來請羅智強委員質詢。","quality":0}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:31:29 - 11:39:29","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長針對「垃圾裸露堆置及災後垃圾妥善處理對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【10月7日及9日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":776,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（11時31分）主席，謝謝，麻煩請環境部彭部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：洪委員早。"],["洪委員孟楷：彭部長，本席要持續關心，這也是國人重視的議題，就是碳費的部分，今天審議委員會有可能做出最終確認，是不是？"],["彭部長啓明：優惠費率的部分可能會做出建議方案。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。今天確定是最後一次嗎？是否會再延期？"],["彭部長啓明：其實我們是希望他們收斂意見啦！不要再開了，因為每次都開四、五個小時，時間非常長。"],["洪委員孟楷：本來說今年上半年度就會確認所有的費率方案，現在已經10月，如果再討論下去，到底什麼時候開徵？什麼時候可以訂出標準？現在看來可以說遙遙無期，這也不是政府樂見的方向。所以今天沒有辦法確定是不是最後一次？有沒有信心？部長。"],["彭部長啓明：我當然有信心啊！其實我也透過很多方式和大眾及業界溝通，還有產業界、NGO、環保團體，目前的共識已經非常足夠，但是我相信各位委員也有看到這兩天的媒體報導，其實兩邊還是有一段滿大的差距。"],["洪委員孟楷：當然。大家都希望讓臺灣的環境越來越好啦！這也是我們永續經營發展的主要方向和目標，可是我們不能口惠實不至啊！到現在為止，碳費的自主減量優惠到底是可樂價還是礦泉水價還是講不清楚，最後我們會落在什麼樣的基準點？"],["彭部長啓明：這是他們今天要討論的，我不能去干涉他們啦！但最後的結果是由我簽字發布，外面說什麼……"],["洪委員孟楷：會不會到時候討論出來的結果不符合你的預期，所以你不發布？"],["彭部長啓明：我會尊重審議委員會的決定。至於委員說的可樂價或是水價，因為整個管制之後，像歐盟它也有一個比較優惠的費率，其實大家的做法都差不多啦！所以我們不要用那樣的方式，因為企業如果想要得到自主減量計畫的優惠，其實他們要花更多錢耶！"],["洪委員孟楷：他們要花更多成本嘛！我們是希望提供誘因。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們提供比較優惠的費率，提供誘因讓企業自主管理減量，減量之後才能符合規定。等於是先付出其他企業成本來達到標準，藉此降低排放量，也付出比較低的費率，如果不願意付出那樣的成本，那就要付比較高的費率嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：沒錯。"],["洪委員孟楷：概念是這樣。但是再怎麼樣，那個價格還是要有一定的標準啊！就美國來說，每增加1公噸的排碳量，他們的外部成本就要臺幣五千七百多元。"],["彭部長啓明：現在說到碳捕捉、碳封存，那個成本都很貴啦！所以這兩個沒有辦法這樣比擬的啦！"],["洪委員孟楷：雖然沒有辦法這樣比擬，但你們至少要有一個參考標準嘛！不然美國環境署也不會發布這樣的訊息。"],["彭部長啓明：那個是……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們拉回來說，部長，我們現在是希望2025年能夠減排10%，以這個做為目標。有可能達到嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：對，這是第二階段管制目標，我認為有點難度啦！"],["洪委員孟楷：要不要修正？減量10%的目標什麼時候可以達成？"],["彭部長啓明：其實我們目前也在研議，因為達到2025年的目標有點難度。委員可以看到2022年的數字，和2005年相比只減少1.8%左右，其實這是不夠的。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，這也是媒體和大家都在說的，過去十多年來，我們努力了那麼久，結果反而背道而馳，我們的火力發電量更多，還包括能源政策等很多因素的影響。但重點是，2022年和2005年相比只差1.8%，現在我們只剩一年多的時間，但是要減10%，剛才部長也承認很有難度，代表這樣的計畫、目標是空中樓閣。2025年可以達到多少？"],["彭部長啓明：我還不知道，因為會非常辛苦。"],["洪委員孟楷：沒辦法預期？那10%的目標什麼時候能夠達到？"],["彭部長啓明：目前我們……"],["洪委員孟楷：如果連10%都說不出來什麼時候可以達到，那我們2030年、2040年、甚至是2050年的淨零碳排，能夠達成嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：能源轉型是一個長期的工作，絕對不是一年就可以做到，我們現在也正在盤點，包括由上而下、由下而上的盤點都在做，我們的確有提出一些挑戰的目標。"],["洪委員孟楷：火力發電或是燃煤發電算不算排碳的大宗？"],["彭部長啓明：燃煤是，燃氣比燃煤大概少了三分之一，它是一個過渡型的能源。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席之前在經濟委員會及相關委員會也有詢問過台電，本席的選區，包括龜山、桃園等地，都鄰近林口火力發電廠，那裡現在是燃煤發電，而且三部機組火力全開，你可以隨時上台電官網查詢，基本上發電量都是百分之九十幾。所以我們就要問了，既然燃煤是大宗，也真的和現在的世界趨勢背道而馳，那什麼時候有退場機制？"],["彭部長啓明：這個要……"],["洪委員孟楷：民進黨政府有提出核電廠的退場機制，這是民進黨政府現在的政策方向，雖然國際趨勢已經不是這樣告訴你們，可是你們一而再、再而三強調核電電廠的退場機制，我們現在要問的是燃煤電廠的退場機制，部長。"],["彭部長啓明：這個是經濟部在規劃的，我們看到他們其實……"],["洪委員孟楷：但是您剛才說了，2025年減量10%無法達成，做不到，你也說能源轉型是大家都要一起做的，環境部現在管的就是氣候變遷、淨零碳排，你們也說燃煤發電是排碳大戶，那麼這部分不是應該討論嗎？你們是不是也應該要求？台電的林口火力發電廠是用燃煤的方式，要不要轉型？還是要求退場？部長。"],["彭部長啓明：有。我們的確是有給台電設定一些排碳係數規劃，希望他們可以更積極進行，這部分的確有在進行，但是委員說的燃煤發電退場部分，我現在還沒有看到相關規劃。"],["洪委員孟楷：因為經濟部、台電雙手一攤告訴你，2035年以前，林口火力發電廠還是一樣要燃煤，他們就是雙手一攤，這才是問題所在。"],["彭部長啓明：有的會更改成……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，今天的問題在於，你自己也承認了，現在大家都希望朝減碳的方向走，但是民進黨政府，不要說你們啦！民進黨政府的能源政策就是和世界趨勢背道而馳，也和我們現在的方向背道而馳嘛！所以你才會做的那麼辛苦啊！說真的，本席都覺得你委屈了，因為2025年減量10%達不到，到時候跳票就是你的責任。"],["彭部長啓明：是大家的責任。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是這個目標達不到，之後怎麼辦呢？還有，如果2025年減量10%都達不到，2030年預計要減量百分之多少？"],["彭部長啓明：24%加減1%。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，25%，能夠達到嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：目前我們正在規劃做大的轉型，有機會達到。"],["洪委員孟楷：抱歉，那個時候不知道您是否還在這個位置上，也不曉得是否還是現在的政府，因為大家只會雙手一攤表示做不到。但臺灣還是臺灣啊！拜託部長，在這個官位上真的要說實話、說真話，要把一些還在裝睡的人叫醒，給我們認為至少還具備專業的部長一些呼籲和期待，好不好？謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪委員，謝謝部長。接下來請羅智強委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":256,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-2","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","涂權吉","盧縣一","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","廖偉翔","王正旭","楊曜","洪申翰","羅廷瑋","洪孟楷","羅智強","黃秀芳","劉建國","陳瑩","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","邱若華","何欣純","林淑芬","牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","林倩綺","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":173,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1138201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長針對「垃圾裸露堆置及災後垃圾妥善處理對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138201_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}