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»:所以我們今天是在討論我們要不要照顧他們所以講清楚就好了那接著我的剩下的時間我要針對今天您在最後這個有關殯葬管理條例你們的結論講說有關委員所提案增列免收費用的對象因事涉中央及地方政府財政負擔建請參酌各地方政府及財政相關機關之意見審慎研議部長這點本席就要這個"},{"start":294.344,"end":303.269,"text":"一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草"},{"start":314.275,"end":316.497,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案"},{"start":332.551,"end":353.278,"text":"一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草"},{"start":362.194,"end":363.095,"text":"一、殯葬管理條例第三十一條"},{"start":376.937,"end":393.367,"text":"一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會第3次全體委員會第4次全體委員會第5次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第7次全體委員會第8次全體委員會第9次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第17次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第19次全體委員會第19次全"},{"start":406.434,"end":419.745,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修"},{"start":433.787,"end":439.433,"text":"三條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十"},{"start":442.711,"end":466.329,"text":"大部分地方政府幾乎只有一兩個地方政府可以支持其他都反對那我們最近再用一次再去跟大家諮詢的時候那他們當然寫的比較細有一些比較就是說還是有三分之二左右的反對那三分之一是有條件納入有條件納入但是他比如說剛剛在提到的有的是可以同意火化免費但是納古塔不行"},{"start":467.31,"end":470.032,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案案案案案"},{"start":483.223,"end":496.289,"text":"二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案：一、殯葬管理條例第二十"},{"start":503.812,"end":509.934,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、"},{"start":527.551,"end":528.893,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"},{"start":543.187,"end":547.749,"text":"一條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會審查委員會審查委員會審查委員會審查委員會"},{"start":570.538,"end":590.386,"text":"一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條文修正草案．一、殯葬管理條例第二十一條"},{"start":599.721,"end":602.722,"text":"一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-10-07T11:25:18+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:25:27.831286+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，本席有請劉部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-07T11:25:27.831286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:25:37.662571+08:00","text":"請劉部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-07T11:25:37.662571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:25:47.493857+08:00","text":"召委好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-10-07T11:25:47.493857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:25:57.325143+08:00","text":"部長，今天很多委員都討論我們要審查的殯葬管理條例，首先本席跟你釐清幾個問題。","quality":0.171},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-10-07T11:25:57.325143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:26:07.156429+08:00","text":"我們現行的規定是低收入戶免收，那像有些縣市，譬如像我們新竹縣沒有公立的殯葬設施，我們的縣民可能都去新竹市，所以就是擁有公立殯葬設施的縣市，因為這個法條，低收入戶只要出事都可以免收，對不對？","quality":0.07},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-10-07T11:26:07.156429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:26:16.987714+08:00","text":"是不是這樣？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-07T11:26:16.987714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:26:26.819000+08:00","text":"是，沒錯。是嘛？好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-10-07T11:26:26.819000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:26:38.026000+08:00","text":"所以我們今天希望把對象提升，應該說擴大到中低收入戶，我想所有委員也都表達這些都是「艱苦人」，所以希望我們的國家、政府可以給他們多一些照顧。","quality":0.548},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-10-07T11:26:40.127000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:27:02.339000+08:00","text":"今天內政部的報告中特別提到，本次殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一的修法，依據行政院主計總處的意見，免費使用公立的火化場及骨灰存放設施，與社會救助法第十六條所定喪葬補助性質相同，會造成重複補貼，應予避免。","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-10-07T11:27:03.580000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:27:13.265000+08:00","text":"這部分剛剛多位委員質詢的時候，部長也不斷的回復，但是本席覺得你的說法，好像感覺就是說我們是要幫助這些低收入戶或是本次修法所列的中低收入戶，他們除了火化還有所謂納骨塔或是骨灰的存放設施免費之外，其實這個法條有給他們補助，沒有所謂的重複補貼。","quality":0.304},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-10-07T11:27:13.265000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:27:26.910818+08:00","text":"我所謂「沒有重複補貼」是指，其實以他們這麼辛苦，可能整個家庭的收入一個月大概就兩、三萬而已，可是他突然面臨家人往生，他們需要的喪葬費用也很多，所以這個應該不算重複補助，您懂我的意思嗎？","quality":0.012},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-10-07T11:27:26.910818+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:27:40.556636+08:00","text":"也就是說我們有大概了解，即便是最低、最低的，一個很辛苦的人，他所用的喪葬費用最少、最少也都要六萬，那你免除了他的火化跟納骨塔之外，我想大家都知道，他們也需要其他的儀式還有靈堂等各方面的各種費用，再怎麼低，他也還需要一些支出。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-10-07T11:27:40.556636+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:27:54.202455+08:00","text":"所以社會救助法第十六條的補助跟我們這次修法，我覺得不需要混為一談。","quality":0.032},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-10-07T11:27:54.202455+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:28:07.848273+08:00","text":"針對這部分，部長，你懂本席的意思嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-07T11:28:07.848273+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:28:21.494091+08:00","text":"徐委員，我想您非常了解，在座有很多委員也當過行政首長，我們在社會救助法裡面寫到的是補助的部分，如果照委員的定義，除了火化或者納骨塔之外還有其他的儀式，我希望在社會救助法裡面把它修正清楚。","quality":0.023},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-07T11:28:21.494091+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:28:35.139909+08:00","text":"另外，我們在殯葬管理條例裡面提到了，包括中低收入戶，未來在火化或者是納骨塔等等的也必須要免收，也把它弄清楚。","quality":0.122},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-07T11:28:35.139909+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:28:48.785727+08:00","text":"因為我剛剛提到……","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-10-07T11:28:48.785727+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:29:02.431545+08:00","text":"對嘛，只是要弄清楚，所以並沒有你們所寫的什麼重複補貼。","quality":0.083},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-07T11:29:02.431545+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:29:16.077364+08:00","text":"不是，所謂「重複」的意思就是說，現在在地方制度法上面的縣市政府，他們認為這就叫重複，我們也認為叫重複，這個也是新竹市跟新竹縣的意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-10-07T11:29:16.077364+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:29:29.723182+08:00","text":"好，OK，你如果要定義或認為這個是重複，我沒意見，你要認為是重複，但是我們討論的是應不應該給他們這些救助，如果應該，這個就沒有所謂的重複，因為是不同的項目內容。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-07T11:29:29.723182+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:29:43.369000+08:00","text":"對，那你要講清楚，因為現在是一個籠統的概念……","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-10-07T11:29:43.369000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:29:46.770000+08:00","text":"對啊，所以講清楚就好了，我們今天是在討論我們要不要照顧他們，所以講清楚就好了。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-10-07T11:29:47.071000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:30:08.202000+08:00","text":"接著我剩下的時間，我要針對今天您在報告最後面有關殯葬管理條例的結論部分說，有關委員所提案增列免收費用的對象，因事涉中央及地方政府財政負擔，建請參酌各地方政府及財政相關機關之意見審慎研議。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-10-07T11:30:08.202000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:30:13.363056+08:00","text":"部長，這點本席就要特別在這邊說明，也特別請部長留意，我們內政委員會請內政部來做報告，你們來報告之前就應該要先整合各縣市政府的意見，尤其本席剛剛也聽到，部長，您本身擔任立委的時候，你也有提，你也注意到這個法案，我們的委員提出這個法案，後來我們委員會也排審，但我們今天沒有看到到底各縣市政府他們的意見是什麼。","quality":0.122},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-07T11:30:13.363056+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:30:18.524111+08:00","text":"報告委員，因為在……","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-10-07T11:30:18.524111+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:30:23.685167+08:00","text":"您剛剛的答詢只有說，地方政府好像有意見，或是會造成他們的財政怎麼樣……","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-07T11:30:23.685167+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:30:28.846222+08:00","text":"報告委員，我……","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-10-07T11:30:28.846222+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:30:34.007278+08:00","text":"你應該把它講出來，我們才好討論是不是我們中央可以來補助。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-10-07T11:30:34.007278+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:30:39.168333+08:00","text":"因為時間的關係，我接著要問……","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-07T11:30:39.168333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:30:44.329389+08:00","text":"中央政府還是以免收為主。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-10-07T11:30:44.329389+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:30:49.490444+08:00","text":"我接著要問，你們有沒有估過，如果我們納入中低收入戶，整個預估一年新增多少錢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-07T11:30:49.490444+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:30:54.651500+08:00","text":"報告委員，不叫「新增」，就是免收，免收多少錢……","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-10-07T11:30:54.651500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:30:59.812556+08:00","text":"對，免收，會少收多少，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-07T11:30:59.812556+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:31:04.973611+08:00","text":"總共三億左右，低收入戶加上中低收入戶，因為我們只能推算。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-10-07T11:31:04.973611+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:31:10.134667+08:00","text":"沒有，我是要問新增的免收費，因為原本低收入戶你就已經……","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-07T11:31:10.134667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:31:15.295722+08:00","text":"兩億多，兩億一千萬左右免收，各縣市地方政府加在一起是免收金額……","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-10-07T11:31:15.295722+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:31:20.456778+08:00","text":"對，免收的，所有加起來兩億多嘛。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-07T11:31:20.456778+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:31:25.617833+08:00","text":"各個縣市地方政府是免收，不是增加，是免收。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-10-07T11:31:25.617833+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:31:30.778889+08:00","text":"對，當然，這點我們很清楚，所以全國整個少收兩億多，其實我們還是可以考慮，我們能夠救助這些社會上真的很辛苦的人……","quality":0.02},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-07T11:31:30.778889+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:31:35.939944+08:00","text":"委員，我的立場跟你一樣，但是因為內政委員會也發文給每個縣市地方政府，我們今天才看到內政委員會相關的這些報告，以為各縣市地方政府有提供給內政委員會，所以我們是雙軌，我們自己從每個地方縣市政府的民政局提供給我們的資料，我們會彙整出來再提供給委員……","quality":0.097},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-10-07T11:31:35.939944+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:31:41.101000+08:00","text":"是，你可不可以說明一下，各縣市你們統整出來的結果？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林司長清淇","start":"2024-10-07T11:31:41.101000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:31:41.241000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告……","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-10-07T11:31:41.241000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:31:42.241000+08:00","text":"不要只講新竹，我們現在要通盤，我們這個法案是要通盤。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林司長清淇","start":"2024-10-07T11:31:41.241000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:32:44.474000+08:00","text":"其實我們之前有開過會，但大部分的地方政府，幾乎只有一、兩個地方政府可以支持，其他的都反對。","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"林司長清淇","start":"2024-10-07T11:32:45.395000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:32:58.045000+08:00","text":"我們最近再發一次文去跟大家諮詢的時候，他們當然寫得比較細，有一些比較……就是說還是有三分之二左右的反對，但有三分之一是同意有條件納入。","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"林司長清淇","start":"2024-10-07T11:32:58.285000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:33:04.309000+08:00","text":"雖同意有條件納入，但是有的比如說，剛剛提到的，有的是可以同意火化免費，但是納骨塔不行；有的是希望建議減半；有的是怎麼樣，大概他們有提出這樣的意見。","quality":0.492},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-10-07T11:33:04.809000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:33:45.666143+08:00","text":"對嘛，所以這樣聽起來，我們今天討論的火化跟骨灰存放設施，就是所謂的納骨塔免費這兩部分，火化的部分，大家應該沒有意見，因為這部分地方應該比較不受影響；骨灰存放設施，可能因為它的成本各方面……這兩億多真的不多，所以我是希望我們中央能夠的話就應該要來照顧，再不然是不是中央負擔多少，地方負擔多少，你還是要朝這方面來思考嘛。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-10-07T11:33:45.966143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:34:01.109000+08:00","text":"因為這個法案也是大家覺得我們就是要照顧這些中低收入戶，所以我們希望內政部這裡還是能夠體恤一下「艱苦人」，可以嗎？部長。","quality":0.019},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-07T11:34:01.409000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:34:17.409000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我剛才講過，我們的立場都一樣，但是因為免收的對象是在縣市地方政府，如果縣市地方政府有反彈的話，可能要請委員多體諒……","quality":0.018},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-10-07T11:34:17.709000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:34:30.280429+08:00","text":"不是，地方免收，我們中央如果補貼那個免收的額度，免收的額度是兩億多，那跟我們團隊算得好像不太一樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-07T11:34:30.580429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:34:38.580429+08:00","text":"報告委員，在財政收支劃分上面，我不曉得什麼叫做補貼免收的額度。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-10-07T11:34:38.880429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:34:42.023286+08:00","text":"不是啊，這個通過以後，補助……","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-07T11:34:42.323286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:34:52.323286+08:00","text":"免收就免收，它在財政上的收跟支就免了，就是往下修正而已，沒有說補貼回去這樣子。","quality":0.057},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-07T11:34:52.623286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:34:54.623286+08:00","text":"您了解我的意思？","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-10-07T11:34:54.923286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:35:08.923286+08:00","text":"我了解，我了解，這應該可以編列這個部分的經費，它可以編列在對中低收入戶的救助嘛，這個也在內政部的職管範圍吧。","quality":0.041},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-07T11:35:09.223286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:35:12.080429+08:00","text":"社會救助法我再問一下……","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-10-07T11:35:12.380429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:35:14.951857+08:00","text":"這不是社會救助法啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-10-07T11:35:15.251857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:35:16.966143+08:00","text":"喔，社會救助法？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-07T11:35:17.266143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:35:20.123286+08:00","text":"喪葬補助在社會救助法。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-10-07T11:35:20.423286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:35:32.994714+08:00","text":"不然就是今天這個法案我們給它通過，然後你們跟地方政府……在今天來開會之前就應該做一些溝通才對嘛。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-07T11:35:33.294714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:35:36.151857+08:00","text":"我們已經開過兩次會啦。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-10-07T11:35:36.451857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:35:43.309000+08:00","text":"你們的立場有沒有要替……既然立場跟我們一樣，對不對？應該……","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-07T11:35:43.609000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:35:44.751857+08:00","text":"但是事涉……","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-10-07T11:35:45.051857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:35:53.909000+08:00","text":"因為我問過我們地方政府，我們地方政府好像很多都很樂意啊，都沒有意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-07T11:35:54.209000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:36:07.066143+08:00","text":"如果地方縣市首長都樂意的話，我希望民政局跟社會局去溝通好，因為我們問的都是從民政單位得到的回應。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-10-07T11:36:07.366143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:36:15.366143+08:00","text":"因為這是中央在修法，所以我們中央還是要下去主導，整合一下意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-10-07T11:36:15.666143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:36:17.094714+08:00","text":"好，謝謝部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-07T11:36:17.394714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:36:19.394714+08:00","text":"謝謝徐欣瑩召委。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-07T11:36:19.694714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:36:22.266143+08:00","text":"接下來請丁學忠委員。","quality":0.222}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:25:18 - 11:35:46","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、殯葬管理條例：\n(一)審查委員丁學忠等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(二)審查委員張嘉郡等29人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(三)審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)審查委員許宇甄等18人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(五)審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【詢答及處理；「本案歡迎各直轄市及縣(市)政府提供書面意見」】\n\n二、都市計畫法：\n(一)審查委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(二)審查委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(三)審查委員黃健豪等19人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(五)審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)審查委員林沛祥等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)審查委員廖先翔等16人擬具「都市計畫法第十九條及第八十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【本案僅詢答】）","gazette":{"lineno":672,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（11時25分）謝謝主席，本席有請劉部長。"],["主席：請劉部長。"],["劉部長世芳：召委好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：部長，今天很多委員都討論我們要審查的殯葬管理條例，首先本席跟你釐清幾個問題。我們現行的規定是低收入戶免收，那像有些縣市，譬如像我們新竹縣沒有公立的殯葬設施，我們的縣民可能都去新竹市，所以就是擁有公立殯葬設施的縣市，因為這個法條，低收入戶只要出事都可以免收，對不對？是不是這樣？"],["劉部長世芳：是，沒錯。"],["徐委員欣瑩：是嘛？好。所以我們今天希望把對象提升，應該說擴大到中低收入戶，我想所有委員也都表達這些都是「艱苦人」，所以希望我們的國家、政府可以給他們多一些照顧。今天內政部的報告中特別提到，本次殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一的修法，依據行政院主計總處的意見，免費使用公立的火化場及骨灰存放設施，與社會救助法第十六條所定喪葬補助性質相同，會造成重複補貼，應予避免。這部分剛剛多位委員質詢的時候，部長也不斷的回復，但是本席覺得你的說法，好像感覺就是說我們是要幫助這些低收入戶或是本次修法所列的中低收入戶，他們除了火化還有所謂納骨塔或是骨灰的存放設施免費之外，其實這個法條有給他們補助，沒有所謂的重複補貼。","我所謂「沒有重複補貼」是指，其實以他們這麼辛苦，可能整個家庭的收入一個月大概就兩、三萬而已，可是他突然面臨家人往生，他們需要的喪葬費用也很多，所以這個應該不算重複補助，您懂我的意思嗎？也就是說我們有大概了解，即便是最低、最低的，一個很辛苦的人，他所用的喪葬費用最少、最少也都要六萬，那你免除了他的火化跟納骨塔之外，我想大家都知道，他們也需要其他的儀式還有靈堂等各方面的各種費用，再怎麼低，他也還需要一些支出。所以社會救助法第十六條的補助跟我們這次修法，我覺得不需要混為一談。針對這部分，部長，你懂本席的意思嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：徐委員，我想您非常了解，在座有很多委員也當過行政首長，我們在社會救助法裡面寫到的是補助的部分，如果照委員的定義，除了火化或者納骨塔之外還有其他的儀式，我希望在社會救助法裡面把它修正清楚。另外，我們在殯葬管理條例裡面提到了，包括中低收入戶，未來在火化或者是納骨塔等等的也必須要免收，也把它弄清楚。因為我剛剛提到……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對嘛，只是要弄清楚，所以並沒有你們所寫的什麼重複補貼。"],["劉部長世芳：不是，所謂「重複」的意思就是說，現在在地方制度法上面的縣市政府，他們認為這就叫重複，我們也認為叫重複，這個也是新竹市跟新竹縣的意見。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，OK，你如果要定義或認為這個是重複，我沒意見，你要認為是重複，但是我們討論的是應不應該給他們這些救助，如果應該，這個就沒有所謂的重複，因為是不同的項目內容。"],["劉部長世芳：對，那你要講清楚，因為現在是一個籠統的概念……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對啊，所以講清楚就好了，我們今天是在討論我們要不要照顧他們，所以講清楚就好了。接著我剩下的時間，我要針對今天您在報告最後面有關殯葬管理條例的結論部分說，有關委員所提案增列免收費用的對象，因事涉中央及地方政府財政負擔，建請參酌各地方政府及財政相關機關之意見審慎研議。部長，這點本席就要特別在這邊說明，也特別請部長留意，我們內政委員會請內政部來做報告，你們來報告之前就應該要先整合各縣市政府的意見，尤其本席剛剛也聽到，部長，您本身擔任立委的時候，你也有提，你也注意到這個法案，我們的委員提出這個法案，後來我們委員會也排審，但我們今天沒有看到到底各縣市政府他們的意見是什麼。"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，因為在……"],["徐委員欣瑩：您剛剛的答詢只有說，地方政府好像有意見，或是會造成他們的財政怎麼樣……"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你應該把它講出來，我們才好討論是不是我們中央可以來補助。因為時間的關係，我接著要問……"],["劉部長世芳：中央政府還是以免收為主。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我接著要問，你們有沒有估過，如果我們納入中低收入戶，整個預估一年新增多少錢？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，不叫「新增」，就是免收，免收多少錢……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，免收，會少收多少，好不好？"],["劉部長世芳：總共三億左右，低收入戶加上中低收入戶，因為我們只能推算。"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有，我是要問新增的免收費，因為原本低收入戶你就已經……"],["劉部長世芳：兩億多，兩億一千萬左右免收，各縣市地方政府加在一起是免收金額……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，免收的，所有加起來兩億多嘛。"],["劉部長世芳：各個縣市地方政府是免收，不是增加，是免收。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，當然，這點我們很清楚，所以全國整個少收兩億多，其實我們還是可以考慮，我們能夠救助這些社會上真的很辛苦的人……"],["劉部長世芳：委員，我的立場跟你一樣，但是因為內政委員會也發文給每個縣市地方政府，我們今天才看到內政委員會相關的這些報告，以為各縣市地方政府有提供給內政委員會，所以我們是雙軌，我們自己從每個地方縣市政府的民政局提供給我們的資料，我們會彙整出來再提供給委員……"],["徐委員欣瑩：是，你可不可以說明一下，各縣市你們統整出來的結果？"],["林司長清淇：跟委員報告……"],["徐委員欣瑩：不要只講新竹，我們現在要通盤，我們這個法案是要通盤。"],["林司長清淇：其實我們之前有開過會，但大部分的地方政府，幾乎只有一、兩個地方政府可以支持，其他的都反對。我們最近再發一次文去跟大家諮詢的時候，他們當然寫得比較細，有一些比較……就是說還是有三分之二左右的反對，但有三分之一是同意有條件納入。雖同意有條件納入，但是有的比如說，剛剛提到的，有的是可以同意火化免費，但是納骨塔不行；有的是希望建議減半；有的是怎麼樣，大概他們有提出這樣的意見。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對嘛，所以這樣聽起來，我們今天討論的火化跟骨灰存放設施，就是所謂的納骨塔免費這兩部分，火化的部分，大家應該沒有意見，因為這部分地方應該比較不受影響；骨灰存放設施，可能因為它的成本各方面……這兩億多真的不多，所以我是希望我們中央能夠的話就應該要來照顧，再不然是不是中央負擔多少，地方負擔多少，你還是要朝這方面來思考嘛。因為這個法案也是大家覺得我們就是要照顧這些中低收入戶，所以我們希望內政部這裡還是能夠體恤一下「艱苦人」，可以嗎？部長。"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我剛才講過，我們的立場都一樣，但是因為免收的對象是在縣市地方政府，如果縣市地方政府有反彈的話，可能要請委員多體諒……"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是，地方免收，我們中央如果補貼那個免收的額度，免收的額度是兩億多，那跟我們團隊算得好像不太一樣。"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，在財政收支劃分上面，我不曉得什麼叫做補貼免收的額度。"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是啊，這個通過以後，補助……"],["劉部長世芳：免收就免收，它在財政上的收跟支就免了，就是往下修正而已，沒有說補貼回去這樣子。您了解我的意思？"],["徐委員欣瑩：我了解，我了解，這應該可以編列這個部分的經費，它可以編列在對中低收入戶的救助嘛，這個也在內政部的職管範圍吧。"],["劉部長世芳：社會救助法我再問一下……"],["徐委員欣瑩：這不是社會救助法啊！喔，社會救助法？"],["劉部長世芳：喪葬補助在社會救助法。"],["徐委員欣瑩：不然就是今天這個法案我們給它通過，然後你們跟地方政府……在今天來開會之前就應該做一些溝通才對嘛。"],["劉部長世芳：我們已經開過兩次會啦。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們的立場有沒有要替……既然立場跟我們一樣，對不對？應該……"],["劉部長世芳：但是事涉……"],["徐委員欣瑩：因為我問過我們地方政府，我們地方政府好像很多都很樂意啊，都沒有意見。"],["劉部長世芳：如果地方縣市首長都樂意的話，我希望民政局跟社會局去溝通好，因為我們問的都是從民政單位得到的回應。"],["徐委員欣瑩：因為這是中央在修法，所以我們中央還是要下去主導，整合一下意見。好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝徐欣瑩召委。接下來請丁學忠委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":164,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-3","speakers":["徐欣瑩","張嘉郡","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","王育敏","丁學忠","許宇甄","廖先翔","林沛祥","黃健豪","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","黃建賓","張宏陸","李柏毅","黃捷","牛煦庭","黃國昌","李坤城","吳琪銘","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","廖偉翔","高金素梅","傅崐萁"],"page_start":87,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1137901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、殯葬管理條例：(一)審查委員丁學忠等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草\n案」案、( 二 ) 審查委員張嘉郡等29 人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、\n(三)審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委\n員許宇甄等18人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員羅廷瑋等\n17 人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案、 ( 六 ) 審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai\nTahovecahe 等16人擬具「殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案；二、都市計畫法：\n(一)審查委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)審查委員\n楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)審查委員黃健豪等19人\n擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「都市計\n畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三\n條之一條文修正草案」案、(六)審查委員林沛祥等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十五條條文修正草\n案」案、( 七 ) 審查委員廖先翔等16 人擬具「都市計畫法第十九條及第八十二條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「都市計畫法第八十三條之一條文修正草案」案【本案僅詢\n答】","agenda_id":"1137901_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}