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行刑訴訟法101條羈押就是那幾個原因嘛那預防性羈押也就是說他有再犯的可能性嘛但是在許多案件裡面法官認為說被告沒有需要判死刑都是因為他有教化的可能性他有悔改那自然就是不會認定說這有反覆實施之餘嘛所以我才會說今天你要押一個被告"},{"start":157.667,"end":157.687,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":178.203,"end":206.037,"text":"上禮拜部長也有說你不認同這個可以執行摺底刑期嗎那我也蠻認同部長的這個想法雖然這是我們第一次遇到這個狀況所以今天我們擔心的是當這個被告他被非常上訴後來撤銷死刑判決之後回歸到普通法院去審理這時候能夠限制他自由的方法就是一種就是法官裁定羈押嘛"},{"start":206.817,"end":206.937,"text":"我可以說明嗎?"},{"start":231.576,"end":260.189,"text":"我想我們現在碰到的目前是即將可能提起非常上訴的時候那現在大家會說提起非常上訴是不是會放人那當然委員已經很清楚幫我幫我已經分析了我上次在院會有講過了這個目前還在羈押還在收容中那在法院其實最高法院在在整個一個審理在確定判決還沒有撤銷之前還是一個收容的狀態大概委員有提到如果萬一撤銷了"},{"start":261.129,"end":264.632,"text":"那如果他撤銷發回到高院的時候,那當然我沒建議,我們都當檢察,我們知道計價權是屬於法院嘛"},{"start":282.947,"end":283.668,"text":"那你剛剛就應該這樣回答吳校委員啊"},{"start":300.729,"end":323.445,"text":"吳宗憲他在帶風向就告訴人民說這些人不會出來但是我就在這邊告訴你依照法律的規定我就說現場很多法官、檢察官的學長也有我檢方的指導老師我如果講錯隨時歡迎反駁我這個回到法院審理的時候法官第一個法官有可能不押這是我們要面臨的第一個風險第二個風險是即使回到高院他最長的羈押時間也只有12個月"},{"start":326.228,"end":331.347,"text":"那如果超過12個月沒有辦法繼續羈押了呢?法官又還沒有下判決那怎麼辦?"},{"start":332.888,"end":361.687,"text":"這也是第二個問題啊所以你跟政治人物說政客說人不會放出去那這不是在騙全國人民嗎我現在我在理解的是在講目前的狀況收容中是不可能放出去那如果說撤銷撤銷花回高院的話當然委員擔心這個問題我不敢保證說沒有沒有對那是不是就要麻煩部長以及秘書長要正視這個問題這些人有可能在不久的將來會被放出來"},{"start":363.028,"end":381.359,"text":"法律不是說可能不會啦應該不會啦就可以那萬一法官放出來呢萬一法官因為羈押的要件就那幾個嘛滅政逃亡101跟101對或者是預防性羈押嘛滅政或逃亡或者是重罪羈押但是有滅政或逃亡之餘"},{"start":382.319,"end":403.126,"text":"這三個狀況請問一下一個二十幾年前的殺人罪他有什麼滅證或篡證之餘第二個逃亡那你要怎麼說他有逃亡之餘呢所以當羈押的條件都不符合的時候法官怎麼去自己自創法律去裁定羈押他這是我一直以來我上個禮拜一跟部長就教就這個問題但部長跟院長那個時候都沒有回答我"},{"start":403.746,"end":429.048,"text":"但我必須在這邊要幫全國人民告訴兩位這件事情這個人可能在回歸到普通法院審理的時候他沒有辦法押或者是已經超過了12個月押不了了那這時候這些人回到社會上面我們國家有什麼作為我今天是要講這個這個會造成人民的心理的不安全感那第二個我要跟部長說明的"},{"start":430.799,"end":458.601,"text":"部長剛跟中加兵委員回答一個東西是完全不對的你要再去跟中加兵委員說你講錯了就是說假釋可以適用新法但是部長刑法施行細則第7條之2是以行為時欸這假釋的標準是行為時欸所以他必須讓到當年假釋的條件也就有可能是15年就可以假釋了如果部長你說假釋可以用新法的話"},{"start":460.031,"end":475.56,"text":"可以用什麼終身不得假釋假設說可以用新法的話我跟你講現在明天監獄保證大鬧一堆無期突襲人開始鬧房了因為他本來他以為15年或25年可以假釋就現在突然我要試用新法所以部長即使你想要修"},{"start":477.441,"end":505.128,"text":"這個實行細則我覺得也萬萬不可因為會天下大亂但是你剛剛跟宗嘉斌委員回答說這個可以適用新法所以這是不對的這完全違法我想這是一個立法政策的一個問題立法政策的一個問題那這部分我嚴厲的結果我們是以適用新法較為妥適那沒有啊那那我就跟好那你這37個死刑犯適用新法"},{"start":506.38,"end":510.181,"text":"現在所有目前在監在看守所的死刑患都是屬於屬於這個這個屬於屬犯罪個案個案犯罪情形屬最嚴重的那我認為能審判這屬於嚴重的暴力的"},{"start":534.393,"end":561.115,"text":"的一個犯罪所以我們認為這部分是在社區是非常的危險的部長部長你沒有回答我的問題我的意思是說依據刑法實行細則假釋是以行為時的那個時間點的假釋條件就你今天你告訴宗家兵委員說這37個死刑犯將來如果判無嫉妒刑的話我募嫉妒刑修成終身不得假釋可以適用刑法這個整個違反規定啊那如果"},{"start":561.795,"end":580.138,"text":"你這樣你難道要割裂適用嗎?那現在的吳宗憲這不是立法政策的問題耶法一時折轉我希望就是說這部分當然是可以討論的部長沒有這樣子我跟你講你這樣講我就完全顛覆我對法律的原來法律可以對他可以這樣對別人不可以這樣"},{"start":580.879,"end":609.54,"text":"那今天你無期徒刑無期徒刑得假釋的時間規定就是以行為實碼適應細則規定的清清楚楚那你今天突然要說他們可以適用終身不得假釋的新規定那今天在現在在關的其他被判無期徒刑的人非這37個那他們是不是也要適用新的呢你今天變割裂成這37個用新的其他人用舊的法律沒有人在這樣把各位各位這邊那麼多法官檢察官"},{"start":611.121,"end":630.799,"text":"部長不能這樣子啦好那沒關係部長這部分麻煩你們自己回去研議那第二個就是說上個禮拜一在執行部長的時候部長說重罪可以羈押我在那邊跟部長說4至665號以及行刑訴訟法101條第一項第三款已經說得很清楚了重罪"},{"start":631.48,"end":631.5,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":658.43,"end":664.925,"text":"我就是說 延續禮拜一的那個的那個說法還有剛剛的講法啦"},{"start":666.133,"end":687.874,"text":"這些人這37位死刑犯當然如果非常上訴不成功那就是執行我想部長沒有意見但是如果他們非常上訴成功的話回歸到普通法院真的你們要注意在押是有時間限制的如果他一年內判不出來真的沒有法律可以再把他限制在在看守所內了"},{"start":688.635,"end":688.655,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":706.65,"end":722.143,"text":"被告他有可能會因此而沒有羈押而回到社會那法務部有沒有什麼因應作為這是我上個禮拜一一直請教部長但是部長都沒有回答的部分那我現在來回答那我想羈押權是屬於法院"},{"start":722.904,"end":723.064,"text":"吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員"},{"start":742.498,"end":746.981,"text":"跟部長報告就是說科技監控沒有錯但是我們只是知道他人在哪裡我們沒有辦法"},{"start":769.315,"end":771.017,"text":"各位報告這是如果說這是屬於審判中的失誤有關審判中的失誤"},{"start":787.576,"end":798.041,"text":"這部分再麻煩部長也要找內政部討論一下警政署討論一下看將來如果這些人沒有羈押的話能夠怎麼解決那最後不好意思再給我一點時間我想我們來回過頭去討論這個精神障礙這次那個憲法法庭判決對於這個精神障礙的這個認定我覺得"},{"start":815.828,"end":835.875,"text":"就像剛剛那個翁曉琳委員說的其實這一次的法大法官的判決已經是數外裁判我認為也是因為大法官本來是解釋憲法但是這次現在大法官開始他會創造一些制度要大家去遵守那這個已經完全脫離我們對於大法官的認定就像以前我們在在刑法第19條我們當然可以"},{"start":837.415,"end":837.435,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":857.722,"end":870.707,"text":"對於法官在刑法19條的時候他可以認定他行為時的這個標準那我說真的我也是不能夠理解說大官這次為什麼會做這樣子的認定他這個已經是"},{"start":872.108,"end":872.408,"text":"委員同仁提及應報主義"},{"start":890.391,"end":917.853,"text":"從先什麼死刑是殺人這個我還是覺得啦就套一句那個布袋戲的話啦他說那個殺生是護眾為護生展業不展人所以說其實今天我們不是喜歡殺生我們不是我今天是為了保護眾生而去做這件事情在我們心中我不是取了他的性命其實他是在為他的業障去去做一個付出那個他這個責任所以"},{"start":919.854,"end":942.081,"text":"從頭到尾我都沒有說那麼認同去做這個應報的概念但是你要知道說死刑在這個社會上面的存在為什麼我自己主我們很支持尤其事務界非常支持因為我們都看過很多血淋淋的例子所以我們對於死刑我們認為他有存在的必要性而不是像有一些委員或一些學者他們可能"},{"start":943.021,"end":943.041,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":963.148,"end":966.671,"text":"這37個死刑犯如果法院真的不再羈押我這裡建議因為執行是你們的權責這37位就請15位大法官每個人認養三個你把他送到"},{"start":986.016,"end":990.76,"text":"司法院每個大法官輔導他們,心理輔導三個月,這樣可能就比較沒問題了。"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:38:50.063000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:38:53.946000+08:00","text":"我們麻煩代理秘書長及部長。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-07T11:38:53.946000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:39:01.672000+08:00","text":"秘書長，辛苦了。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"黃代理秘書長麟倫","start":"2024-10-07T11:39:01.672000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:39:02.672000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:39:01.672000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:39:20.164000+08:00","text":"秘書長、部長，兩位都是司法官訓練所的學長，在座也有很多檢察官、法官、也有我以前在檢方的指導老師，所以如果我等一下有任何說錯的地方，大家都可以現場就說我講錯了。","quality":0.873},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:39:23.844000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:40:23.830000+08:00","text":"我到立法院之後常覺得有一件很奇怪的事情，部長，我已經不只一次告訴部長，真的不要配合政客在那邊答話，在這裡不能說不懂法律的人來這裡假裝自己是法律專家，而懂法律的人來這邊又假裝自己不懂法律，你面對那些政客在那邊胡說八道時，為什麼還要配合他演出呢？","quality":0.381},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:40:23.830000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:40:24.830000+08:00","text":"我們應該告訴國人真正的法律規定是什麼，我們該告訴人民什麼是大家要煩惱、要擔心的；至於什麼是錯誤的、什麼是認知作戰，就要告訴人民這些不用擔心，我想這才是我們學法律的人最基本的精神嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:40:24.830000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:40:25.830000+08:00","text":"我們是要解決社會的問題、解決社會的不安跟糾紛，而不是來這邊陪著一些政客搞得社會更混亂！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:40:24.030000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:40:24.590000+08:00","text":"我在這邊就幫大家再上一次法律課。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:40:25.671000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:40:37.996000+08:00","text":"尤其是吳大委員，對法律不懂，卻每次都胡說八道、亂帶風向，部長剛剛也跟著她這樣講，所以我剛剛才會說部長沒有回答到立委的問題嘛！","quality":0.768},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:40:38.376000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:40:40.737000+08:00","text":"待會我會跟你說是怎麼樣了。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:40:43.726000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:40:53.293000+08:00","text":"對於一個人在就審期間、包括偵查期間，能夠押他一定是因為有羈押或預防性羈押的必要性嘛！","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:40:54.194000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:40:55.275000+08:00","text":"請問兩位，是不是這樣？對。好。","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:40:56.636000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:41:04.922000+08:00","text":"那麼羈押跟預防性羈押都有它的要件，根據刑事訴訟法第一百零一條，羈押就是基於哪幾個原因嘛！","quality":0.683},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:41:06.163000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:41:09.246000+08:00","text":"預防性羈押也就是因為有再犯的可能性嘛！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:41:09.966000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:41:20.014000+08:00","text":"在許多案件裡面，法官認為被告沒有需要判死刑，都是因為認為他有教化可能性、有悔改，自然就不會認定有反覆實施之虞嘛！","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:41:20.474000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:41:23.176000+08:00","text":"所以我才會說，要押一個被告、必須把他關著、不讓他出去，要有法院的羈押裁定嘛！","quality":0.364},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:41:23.176000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:41:34.189500+08:00","text":"如果一個人被判死刑，在執行槍決之前則叫做收容，不叫羈押。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:41:34.189500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:41:45.203000+08:00","text":"羈押依照目前的法制可以折抵刑期，但是收容應該沒有。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:41:45.203000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:41:53.827000+08:00","text":"部長上個禮拜也說你不認同這個可以折抵刑期，我也滿認同部長這個想法，雖然我們是第一次遇到這個狀況。","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:41:56.328000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:42:13.017000+08:00","text":"我擔心的是當被告因為非常上訴被撤銷死刑判決之後，回歸普通法院審理，這時候能限制他自由的方法就是一種，也就是法官裁定羈押嘛！","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:42:13.017000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:42:14.017000+08:00","text":"但是法官裁定羈押必須符合羈押或預防性羈押兩種條件，就導致被告在回歸普通法院審理的時候有可能遇到法官不押啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:42:14.017000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:42:15.017000+08:00","text":"怎麼會像剛剛吳思瑤委員說這個不可能等等，而部長也跟著她回答，然後又講到收容的事情？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-07T11:42:13.817000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:42:13.937000+08:00","text":"委員，我可以說明嗎？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-07T11:42:38.576000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:42:48.801000+08:00","text":"我想，我們現在碰到的是即將、可能提起非常上訴的時候，而大家問到提起非常上訴期間是不是可以放人？","quality":0.837},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-07T11:42:49.341000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:42:57.004000+08:00","text":"當然委員已經很清楚地幫我分析，我上次在院會也講過了，關於這點，目前還屬於收容中。","quality":0.806},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-07T11:42:57.604000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:43:05.108000+08:00","text":"在法院方面，其實以最高法院的整個審理，在確定判決還沒有撤銷之前仍是收容狀態。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-07T11:43:05.868000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:43:07.169000+08:00","text":"剛才委員提到，萬一撤銷了怎麼辦？","quality":0.643},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-07T11:43:07.169000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:43:08.169000+08:00","text":"撤銷就要區分了，如果是自為判決的話，判決確定，我們就直接當場執行了嘛！","quality":0.065},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-07T11:43:08.169000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:43:09.169000+08:00","text":"也就是直接將收容改成受刑……對，那……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-07T11:43:09.050000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:43:11.612000+08:00","text":"另外，我再跟委員報告，如果是撤銷、發回到高院的時候，那我們都當過檢察官，知道羈押權屬於法院嘛，我也沒辦法保證法院一定會押。","quality":0.463},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-07T11:43:11.612000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:43:20.779500+08:00","text":"但是以現在來說，我認為法院會押，但如果法院不押，我們要怎麼處理……對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-07T11:43:20.779500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:43:29.947000+08:00","text":"我們就是只能抗告建議羈押，或提出再行羈押的事由，再聲請法院羈押。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:43:29.947000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:43:30.648000+08:00","text":"部長，那你剛剛就應該這樣回答吳思瑤委員啊！","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-07T11:43:30.648000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:43:47.729000+08:00","text":"不是，因為她在……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:43:47.729000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:43:59.478000+08:00","text":"吳思瑤委員在帶風向，也就是告訴人民這些人不會出來，但我就是要在這邊告訴你，依照法律的規定，我說了，現場很多法官、檢察官學長，也有我在檢方的指導老師，我如果講錯，隨時歡迎反駁我。","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-07T11:43:59.478000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:44:00.738000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:44:00.738000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:44:07.303000+08:00","text":"回到法院審理的時候，第一，法官有可能不押，這是我們要面臨的第一個風險。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:44:07.303000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:44:18.347000+08:00","text":"第二個風險是即使回到高院，最長的羈押時間也只有12個月，如果超過12個月、沒有辦法繼續羈押了，法官又還沒有下判決，那怎麼辦？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:44:19.888000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:44:20.829000+08:00","text":"這是第二個問題啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:44:21.189000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:44:27.213000+08:00","text":"所以你跟政治人物、政客說人不會放出去，那不是在騙全國人民嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-07T11:44:27.213000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:44:31.996000+08:00","text":"我理解而且我在講的是以目前的狀況，收容中不可能放出去。","quality":0.76},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-07T11:44:32.557000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:44:39.561000+08:00","text":"如果撤銷、發回高院的話，對於委員關心的這個問題，當然我不敢保證說沒有。","quality":0.774},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:44:39.982000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:44:55.511000+08:00","text":"對，那是不是就要麻煩部長以及秘書長正視這個問題──這些人有可能在不久的將來被放出來，談論法律不是說「可能不會」、「應該不會」就可以，萬一法官放出來呢？","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:44:58.053000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:45:01.094000+08:00","text":"因為羈押的要件就那幾個嘛，滅證、逃亡……","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-07T11:45:01.094000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:45:03.396000+08:00","text":"第一百零一條及第一百零一條之一的預防性羈押。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:45:03.396000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:45:04.456000+08:00","text":"對，或者是預防性羈押嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:45:04.937000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:45:10.099000+08:00","text":"滅證、逃亡或重罪羈押但有滅證或逃亡之虞這三個狀況。","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:45:10.099000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:45:14.101000+08:00","text":"請問一下，一件二十幾年前的殺人罪有什麼滅證或串證之虞？","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:45:14.741000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:45:17.402000+08:00","text":"第二點是逃亡，那你要怎麼說他有逃亡之虞呢？","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:45:18.682000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:45:23.844000+08:00","text":"當羈押的條件都不符合的時候，法官怎麼自創法律去裁定羈押他？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:45:24.444000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:45:30.106000+08:00","text":"這是我一直以來的問題，我上個禮拜一跟部長就教的就是這個問題，但部長跟院長那個時候都沒有回答我。","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:45:30.866000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:45:49.342000+08:00","text":"我在這邊必須幫全國人民告訴兩位這件事情：這個人可能在回歸普通法院審理的時候，因為沒有辦法押，或者已經超過12個月押不了了，那麼對於這時候這些人回到社會上，我們的國家有什麼作為？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:45:49.342000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:45:53.886000+08:00","text":"我今天是要講這一點，這個會造成人民心裡的不安全感。","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:45:54.626000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:46:03.704000+08:00","text":"第二個我要跟部長說明的是，部長剛才對鍾佳濱委員回答的一件事是完全不對的，你要再去跟鍾佳濱委員說你講錯了。","quality":0.755},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:46:05.505000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:46:15.072000+08:00","text":"你說假釋可以適用新法，但是部長，刑法施行細則第七條之一、第七條之二是指「行為時」欸！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:46:15.072000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:46:22.698000+08:00","text":"這個假釋的標準是行為時，所以必須用到當年假釋的條件，也就是有可能15年就可以假釋了。","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:46:23.559000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:46:35.035000+08:00","text":"如果如部長說的，假釋可以用新法，也就是可以用終身不得假釋的新法，假設可以用新法的話，那我跟你講，明天監獄保證大鬧，一堆無期徒刑囚犯開始鬧房了！","quality":0.797},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:46:36.256000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:46:40.538000+08:00","text":"因為他們本來以為15年或25年後可以假釋，結果現在突然適用新法。","quality":0.808},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:46:41.179000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:46:48.142000+08:00","text":"所以，部長，即使你想修施行細則，我也覺得萬萬不可，因為會天下大亂。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:46:48.422000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:46:54.264000+08:00","text":"你剛剛向鍾佳濱委員回答這部分可以適用新法，這是不對的，這完全違法。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-07T11:46:54.584000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:47:07.207000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我想這是立法政策的問題，就這部分，我們研議的結果是以適用新法較為妥適，在法制上我們可以來處理！","quality":0.604},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:47:10.928000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:47:12.108000+08:00","text":"這37個死刑犯若適用新法，要讓他們終身不得假釋，那其他死刑犯呢？","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:47:12.108000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:47:13.108000+08:00","text":"可以割裂適用嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:47:13.108000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:47:14.108000+08:00","text":"你可以說以前判的無期徒刑就要適用舊法，現在新判的無期徒刑適用新法？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-07T11:47:13.380000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:47:45.977000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，現在所有在監、在看守所的死刑犯都是個案犯罪情節屬最嚴重的、屬於嚴重暴力的犯罪，我們認為這部分在社區是非常危險的，而且教化……不！","quality":0.806},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:47:46.958000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:47:50.040000+08:00","text":"部長，你現在沒有回答我的問題。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:47:50.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:48:07.174000+08:00","text":"我的意思是依據刑法施行細則，假釋是適用行為時那個時間點的假釋條件，結果你今天告訴鍾佳濱委員這37個死刑犯將來如果被判無期徒刑的話，我們把無期徒刑修正為終身不得假釋，他們可以適用新法，這樣整個都違反規定啊！","quality":0.755},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:48:09.416000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:48:10.798000+08:00","text":"難道要割裂適用嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:48:12.860000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:48:13.221000+08:00","text":"現在的無期徒刑……","quality":0.429},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-07T11:48:13.221000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:48:14.221000+08:00","text":"委員，我想這是立法政策的問題……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:48:13.922000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:48:15.323000+08:00","text":"這不是立法政策的問題欸！","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-07T11:48:15.964000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:48:19.068000+08:00","text":"法依時折轉，這部分當然是可以討論的。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:48:20.470000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:48:21.331000+08:00","text":"部長，部長，沒有這樣的道理！","quality":0.545},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:48:21.992000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:48:27.138000+08:00","text":"你這樣講就完全顛覆我對法律的……原來法律對他可以這樣、對別人不可以這樣！","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:48:30.121000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:48:35.344000+08:00","text":"無期徒刑得假釋的時間規定就是以行為時為準嘛！","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:48:35.344000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:48:36.185000+08:00","text":"施行細則規定得清清楚楚。","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:48:36.765000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:48:47.653000+08:00","text":"你今天突然說他們可以適用終身不得假釋的新規定，那現在正在關的其他被判無期徒刑的人（非這37人），他們是不是也要適用新的法律呢？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:48:48.274000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:48:53.578000+08:00","text":"否則今天就變成割裂成這37個人適用新法、其他人用舊法，法律沒有人這樣用吧！","quality":0.688},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:48:55.259000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:48:59.102000+08:00","text":"這邊有這麼多法官、檢察官，部長不能這樣啦！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:48:59.923000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:49:03.866000+08:00","text":"沒關係，部長，這部分麻煩你們自己回去研議。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:49:04.047000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:49:17.779000+08:00","text":"第二，我上禮拜一質詢部長時，部長說重罪可以羈押，但我在這邊要跟部長說，釋字第六六五號以及刑事訴訟法第一百零一條第一項第三款已經說得很清楚了，重罪羈押還必須有逃亡跟串證之虞，不是重罪可以當作唯一羈押理由，你……","quality":0.516},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-07T11:49:17.779000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:49:27.483667+08:00","text":"這個我清楚，這是因為第一百零一條裡面……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:49:27.483667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:49:37.188333+08:00","text":"你回去以後可以再看一下我們當天的質詢。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:49:37.188333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:49:46.893000+08:00","text":"當天我就跟你說我不想跟你辯論，因為這是一般檢察官最基本的概念，部長一定要做那樣的解釋，所以我覺得不想爭辯，我是認為不可以這樣啦！","quality":0.051},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:49:46.893000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:50:00+08:00","text":"再來，我延續禮拜一的說法還有剛剛的講法，這37位死刑犯的非常上訴如果不成功，當然就是執行，我想部長沒有意見。","quality":0.83},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:50:00+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:50:14.854000+08:00","text":"但是如果他們非常上訴成功，回歸普通法院的話，你們真的要注意在押是有時間限制的，如果一年內判不出來，真的沒有法律可以再把他限制在看守所內了。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:50:14.854000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:50:40.636000+08:00","text":"第二點就是可能會面對法官不押，因為法官獨立審判，任何人──包括院長、包括秘書長也沒有權力告訴個別法官必須裁押或不押，所以我們可能面對到的風險是這名被告有可能因此沒有羈押而回到社會，那法務部有沒有什麼因應作為？","quality":0.296},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:50:40.636000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:50:45.761000+08:00","text":"這是我上個禮拜一一直請教部長，但是部長都沒有回答的部分。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-07T11:50:46.021000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:50:46.521000+08:00","text":"我現在來回答好嗎？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:50:46.521000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:50:51.116400+08:00","text":"好，請說。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-07T11:50:51.116400+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:50:55.711800+08:00","text":"我想，羈押權屬於法院嘛，如果我們經過各種努力，包括建議、論告，建議法官羈押，法官還是要判，我想我們就用抗告程序，另外依法以科技監控、定期查訪、定期報到等機制對這些被交保或釋放的人……","quality":0.127},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:50:55.711800+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:51:00.307200+08:00","text":"部長，好，但是跟……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-07T11:51:00.307200+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:51:04.902600+08:00","text":"現在依法我只能做到這樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-07T11:51:04.902600+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:51:09.498000+08:00","text":"也跟委員報告，剛才提到的妥速審判法，羈押有6次延押，還有1次……如果委員對這部分有問題，那是不是也可以問司法院的意見？","quality":0.04},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:51:09.498000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:51:13.961000+08:00","text":"我跟部長報告，有科技監控沒有錯，但只是讓我們知道他人在哪裡，沒有辦法克制他不在那個時間點殺人，對不對？","quality":0.587},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:51:13.961000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:51:27.499333+08:00","text":"我們只能控制他人在哪裡而已嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:51:27.499333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:51:41.037667+08:00","text":"要是他戴著腳鐐回家，卻砍了他的媽媽，沒有人有辦法，所以……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-10-07T11:51:41.037667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:51:54.576000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，如果這屬於審判中的事務，有關於審判中的事務，也就是涉及釋放被告或交保被告，如果立法上有缺漏，是不是可以請司法院來表示意見？","quality":0.279},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:51:54.576000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:51:59.738000+08:00","text":"不，這部分再麻煩部長，可能也要找內政部、警政署討論一下，看看將來如果這些人沒有羈押的話能夠怎麼解決。","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:52:00.299000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:52:02.339000+08:00","text":"不好意思，再給我一點時間，最後我們回過頭討論精神障礙。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:52:02.339000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:52:39.854000+08:00","text":"對於這次憲法法庭判決對於精神障礙的認定，我覺得就像剛剛翁曉玲委員說的，其實這次大法官判決已經是訴外裁判，我認為也是，因為大法官本來是解釋憲法，但是現在大法官開始創造一些制度要大家遵守，這已經完全脫離我們對於大法官的認定。","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:52:39.854000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:53:10.944000+08:00","text":"就像以前根據刑法第十九條，我們當然可以要求法官在審理時認定被告行為時的精神狀況如何，但是這次大法官甚至多了一個要求，就是在審理中要怎麼樣、受刑了要怎麼樣、執行前要怎麼樣，已經多了非常多奇怪的要求，這都已經不是原本刑法第十九條規定法官可以認定被告行為時狀況的標準。","quality":0.244},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:53:10.944000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:53:17.687000+08:00","text":"說真的，我也不能夠理解大法官這次為什麼會作這樣的認定，我認為這已經變成訴外裁判了。","quality":0.684},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:53:17.687000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:53:19.108000+08:00","text":"今天時間也不夠了，我想我會另外找個時間再來請教您。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:53:19.108000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:53:46.979000+08:00","text":"剛剛也有很多委員同仁提到，就是從應報主義去講，或者從什麼死刑是殺人等一些角度去看，但我還是套一句布袋戲裡的話：「殺生為護生，斬業不斬人。」","quality":0.574},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-07T11:53:46.979000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:53:50.021000+08:00","text":"對，「殺生為護生，斬業非斬人。」","quality":0.091},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:53:50.021000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:54:12.916000+08:00","text":"所以我們今天其實不是喜歡殺生，是為了保護眾生而去做這件事，在我們心中，我不是取了他的性命，其實是他在為他的業障付出責任，所以從頭到尾我都沒有那麼認同採用應報的概念。","quality":0.908},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:54:13.756000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:54:19.678000+08:00","text":"你要知道，對於死刑在這個社會上的存在，為什麼我們很支持，尤其是實務界非常支持？","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:54:19.798000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:54:29.061000+08:00","text":"因為我們都看過很多血淋淋的例子，所以對於死刑，我們會認為它有存在的必要性，而不是像一些委員或學者，他們可能認為死刑是另外一套理論。","quality":0.783},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:54:29.061000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:54:39.604500+08:00","text":"我還是認為這樣啦，不要對我們扣帽子說我們嗜殺、喜歡取人性命，實際上我們還是為了保護眾生才作這樣的堅持，這點我在這邊跟各位報告。","quality":0.017},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2024-10-07T11:54:39.604500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:54:50.148000+08:00","text":"至於我本來想提到精神病與死刑的部分，可能就之後談好了，不好意思，因為時間的關係，謝謝二位。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-07T11:54:50.148000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T11:55:17.740000+08:00","text":"部長，針對37個死刑犯，如果法院真的不再羈押，我這裡建議，因為執行是你們的權責嘛，那麼這37位就請15位大法官每個人認養3個，你們把他們送到司法院，由每個大法官輔導他們，給予心理輔導3個月，這樣可能就比較沒有問題了，讓他們跟大法官日以繼夜3個月就好，看看他們受不受得了。謝謝。","quality":0.664},{"speaker":"主席（吳委員宗憲）","start":"2024-10-07T11:55:18.240000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:55:26.240000+08:00","text":"先處理會議時間問題，上午會議繼續質詢到所有委員發言完畢為止。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（吳委員宗憲）","start":"2024-10-07T11:55:26.540000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T11:55:29.682857+08:00","text":"接下來請林淑芬委員發言。","quality":0}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:38:47 - 11:55:25","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署、衛生福利部率所屬相關單位列席就「憲法法庭113年度憲判字第8號判決宣示相關法令之檢討與修正」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":729,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（11時38分）我們麻煩代理秘書長及部長。"],["主席：秘書長，辛苦了。"],["黃代理秘書長麟倫：委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：秘書長、部長，兩位都是司法官訓練所的學長，在座也有很多檢察官、法官、也有我以前在檢方的指導老師，所以如果我等一下有任何說錯的地方，大家都可以現場就說我講錯了。","我到立法院之後常覺得有一件很奇怪的事情，部長，我已經不只一次告訴部長，真的不要配合政客在那邊答話，在這裡不能說不懂法律的人來這裡假裝自己是法律專家，而懂法律的人來這邊又假裝自己不懂法律，你面對那些政客在那邊胡說八道時，為什麼還要配合他演出呢？我們應該告訴國人真正的法律規定是什麼，我們該告訴人民什麼是大家要煩惱、要擔心的；至於什麼是錯誤的、什麼是認知作戰，就要告訴人民這些不用擔心，我想這才是我們學法律的人最基本的精神嘛！我們是要解決社會的問題、解決社會的不安跟糾紛，而不是來這邊陪著一些政客搞得社會更混亂！我在這邊就幫大家再上一次法律課。尤其是吳大委員，對法律不懂，卻每次都胡說八道、亂帶風向，部長剛剛也跟著她這樣講，所以我剛剛才會說部長沒有回答到立委的問題嘛！待會我會跟你說是怎麼樣了。","對於一個人在就審期間、包括偵查期間，能夠押他一定是因為有羈押或預防性羈押的必要性嘛！請問兩位，是不是這樣？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對。"],["吳委員宗憲：好。那麼羈押跟預防性羈押都有它的要件，根據刑事訴訟法第一百零一條，羈押就是基於哪幾個原因嘛！預防性羈押也就是因為有再犯的可能性嘛！在許多案件裡面，法官認為被告沒有需要判死刑，都是因為認為他有教化可能性、有悔改，自然就不會認定有反覆實施之虞嘛！所以我才會說，要押一個被告、必須把他關著、不讓他出去，要有法院的羈押裁定嘛！如果一個人被判死刑，在執行槍決之前則叫做收容，不叫羈押。羈押依照目前的法制可以折抵刑期，但是收容應該沒有。部長上個禮拜也說你不認同這個可以折抵刑期，我也滿認同部長這個想法，雖然我們是第一次遇到這個狀況。我擔心的是當被告因為非常上訴被撤銷死刑判決之後，回歸普通法院審理，這時候能限制他自由的方法就是一種，也就是法官裁定羈押嘛！但是法官裁定羈押必須符合羈押或預防性羈押兩種條件，就導致被告在回歸普通法院審理的時候有可能遇到法官不押啊！怎麼會像剛剛吳思瑤委員說這個不可能等等，而部長也跟著她回答，然後又講到收容的事情？"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員，我可以說明嗎？我想，我們現在碰到的是即將、可能提起非常上訴的時候，而大家問到提起非常上訴期間是不是可以放人？當然委員已經很清楚地幫我分析，我上次在院會也講過了，關於這點，目前還屬於收容中。在法院方面，其實以最高法院的整個審理，在確定判決還沒有撤銷之前仍是收容狀態。","剛才委員提到，萬一撤銷了怎麼辦？撤銷就要區分了，如果是自為判決的話，判決確定，我們就直接當場執行了嘛！也就是直接將收容改成受刑……"],["吳委員宗憲：對，那……"],["鄭部長銘謙：另外，我再跟委員報告，如果是撤銷、發回到高院的時候，那我們都當過檢察官，知道羈押權屬於法院嘛，我也沒辦法保證法院一定會押。但是以現在來說，我認為法院會押，但如果法院不押，我們要怎麼處理……"],["吳委員宗憲：對。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們就是只能抗告建議羈押，或提出再行羈押的事由，再聲請法院羈押。"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，那你剛剛就應該這樣回答吳思瑤委員啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：不是，因為她在……"],["吳委員宗憲：吳思瑤委員在帶風向，也就是告訴人民這些人不會出來，但我就是要在這邊告訴你，依照法律的規定，我說了，現場很多法官、檢察官學長，也有我在檢方的指導老師，我如果講錯，隨時歡迎反駁我。"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員。"],["吳委員宗憲：回到法院審理的時候，第一，法官有可能不押，這是我們要面臨的第一個風險。第二個風險是即使回到高院，最長的羈押時間也只有12個月，如果超過12個月、沒有辦法繼續羈押了，法官又還沒有下判決，那怎麼辦？這是第二個問題啊！","所以你跟政治人物、政客說人不會放出去，那不是在騙全國人民嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我理解而且我在講的是以目前的狀況，收容中不可能放出去。如果撤銷、發回高院的話，對於委員關心的這個問題，當然我不敢保證說沒有。"],["吳委員宗憲：對，那是不是就要麻煩部長以及秘書長正視這個問題──這些人有可能在不久的將來被放出來，談論法律不是說「可能不會」、「應該不會」就可以，萬一法官放出來呢？因為羈押的要件就那幾個嘛，滅證、逃亡……"],["鄭部長銘謙：第一百零一條及第一百零一條之一的預防性羈押。"],["吳委員宗憲：對，或者是預防性羈押嘛！滅證、逃亡或重罪羈押但有滅證或逃亡之虞這三個狀況。請問一下，一件二十幾年前的殺人罪有什麼滅證或串證之虞？第二點是逃亡，那你要怎麼說他有逃亡之虞呢？當羈押的條件都不符合的時候，法官怎麼自創法律去裁定羈押他？這是我一直以來的問題，我上個禮拜一跟部長就教的就是這個問題，但部長跟院長那個時候都沒有回答我。我在這邊必須幫全國人民告訴兩位這件事情：這個人可能在回歸普通法院審理的時候，因為沒有辦法押，或者已經超過12個月押不了了，那麼對於這時候這些人回到社會上，我們的國家有什麼作為？我今天是要講這一點，這個會造成人民心裡的不安全感。","第二個我要跟部長說明的是，部長剛才對鍾佳濱委員回答的一件事是完全不對的，你要再去跟鍾佳濱委員說你講錯了。你說假釋可以適用新法，但是部長，刑法施行細則第七條之一、第七條之二是指「行為時」欸！這個假釋的標準是行為時，所以必須用到當年假釋的條件，也就是有可能15年就可以假釋了。如果如部長說的，假釋可以用新法，也就是可以用終身不得假釋的新法，假設可以用新法的話，那我跟你講，明天監獄保證大鬧，一堆無期徒刑囚犯開始鬧房了！因為他們本來以為15年或25年後可以假釋，結果現在突然適用新法。所以，部長，即使你想修施行細則，我也覺得萬萬不可，因為會天下大亂。你剛剛向鍾佳濱委員回答這部分可以適用新法，這是不對的，這完全違法。"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，我想這是立法政策的問題，就這部分，我們研議的結果是以適用新法較為妥適，在法制上我們可以來處理！"],["吳委員宗憲：這37個死刑犯若適用新法，要讓他們終身不得假釋，那其他死刑犯呢？可以割裂適用嗎？你可以說以前判的無期徒刑就要適用舊法，現在新判的無期徒刑適用新法？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，現在所有在監、在看守所的死刑犯都是個案犯罪情節屬最嚴重的、屬於嚴重暴力的犯罪，我們認為這部分在社區是非常危險的，而且教化……"],["吳委員宗憲：不！部長，你現在沒有回答我的問題。我的意思是依據刑法施行細則，假釋是適用行為時那個時間點的假釋條件，結果你今天告訴鍾佳濱委員這37個死刑犯將來如果被判無期徒刑的話，我們把無期徒刑修正為終身不得假釋，他們可以適用新法，這樣整個都違反規定啊！難道要割裂適用嗎？現在的無期徒刑……"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員，我想這是立法政策的問題……"],["吳委員宗憲：這不是立法政策的問題欸！"],["鄭部長銘謙：法依時折轉，這部分當然是可以討論的。"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，部長，沒有這樣的道理！你這樣講就完全顛覆我對法律的……原來法律對他可以這樣、對別人不可以這樣！無期徒刑得假釋的時間規定就是以行為時為準嘛！施行細則規定得清清楚楚。你今天突然說他們可以適用終身不得假釋的新規定，那現在正在關的其他被判無期徒刑的人（非這37人），他們是不是也要適用新的法律呢？否則今天就變成割裂成這37個人適用新法、其他人用舊法，法律沒有人這樣用吧！這邊有這麼多法官、檢察官，部長不能這樣啦！沒關係，部長，這部分麻煩你們自己回去研議。","第二，我上禮拜一質詢部長時，部長說重罪可以羈押，但我在這邊要跟部長說，釋字第六六五號以及刑事訴訟法第一百零一條第一項第三款已經說得很清楚了，重罪羈押還必須有逃亡跟串證之虞，不是重罪可以當作唯一羈押理由，你……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我清楚，這是因為第一百零一條裡面……"],["吳委員宗憲：你回去以後可以再看一下我們當天的質詢。當天我就跟你說我不想跟你辯論，因為這是一般檢察官最基本的概念，部長一定要做那樣的解釋，所以我覺得不想爭辯，我是認為不可以這樣啦！","再來，我延續禮拜一的說法還有剛剛的講法，這37位死刑犯的非常上訴如果不成功，當然就是執行，我想部長沒有意見。但是如果他們非常上訴成功，回歸普通法院的話，你們真的要注意在押是有時間限制的，如果一年內判不出來，真的沒有法律可以再把他限制在看守所內了。第二點就是可能會面對法官不押，因為法官獨立審判，任何人──包括院長、包括秘書長也沒有權力告訴個別法官必須裁押或不押，所以我們可能面對到的風險是這名被告有可能因此沒有羈押而回到社會，那法務部有沒有什麼因應作為？這是我上個禮拜一一直請教部長，但是部長都沒有回答的部分。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我現在來回答好嗎？"],["吳委員宗憲：好，請說。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想，羈押權屬於法院嘛，如果我們經過各種努力，包括建議、論告，建議法官羈押，法官還是要判，我想我們就用抗告程序，另外依法以科技監控、定期查訪、定期報到等機制對這些被交保或釋放的人……"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，好，但是跟……"],["鄭部長銘謙：現在依法我只能做到這樣。","也跟委員報告，剛才提到的妥速審判法，羈押有6次延押，還有1次……如果委員對這部分有問題，那是不是也可以問司法院的意見？"],["吳委員宗憲：我跟部長報告，有科技監控沒有錯，但只是讓我們知道他人在哪裡，沒有辦法克制他不在那個時間點殺人，對不對？我們只能控制他人在哪裡而已嘛！要是他戴著腳鐐回家，卻砍了他的媽媽，沒有人有辦法，所以……"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，如果這屬於審判中的事務，有關於審判中的事務，也就是涉及釋放被告或交保被告，如果立法上有缺漏，是不是可以請司法院來表示意見？"],["吳委員宗憲：不，這部分再麻煩部長，可能也要找內政部、警政署討論一下，看看將來如果這些人沒有羈押的話能夠怎麼解決。","不好意思，再給我一點時間，最後我們回過頭討論精神障礙。對於這次憲法法庭判決對於精神障礙的認定，我覺得就像剛剛翁曉玲委員說的，其實這次大法官判決已經是訴外裁判，我認為也是，因為大法官本來是解釋憲法，但是現在大法官開始創造一些制度要大家遵守，這已經完全脫離我們對於大法官的認定。就像以前根據刑法第十九條，我們當然可以要求法官在審理時認定被告行為時的精神狀況如何，但是這次大法官甚至多了一個要求，就是在審理中要怎麼樣、受刑了要怎麼樣、執行前要怎麼樣，已經多了非常多奇怪的要求，這都已經不是原本刑法第十九條規定法官可以認定被告行為時狀況的標準。說真的，我也不能夠理解大法官這次為什麼會作這樣的認定，我認為這已經變成訴外裁判了。今天時間也不夠了，我想我會另外找個時間再來請教您。","剛剛也有很多委員同仁提到，就是從應報主義去講，或者從什麼死刑是殺人等一些角度去看，但我還是套一句布袋戲裡的話：「殺生為護生，斬業不斬人。」"],["主席：對，「殺生為護生，斬業非斬人。」"],["吳委員宗憲：所以我們今天其實不是喜歡殺生，是為了保護眾生而去做這件事，在我們心中，我不是取了他的性命，其實是他在為他的業障付出責任，所以從頭到尾我都沒有那麼認同採用應報的概念。你要知道，對於死刑在這個社會上的存在，為什麼我們很支持，尤其是實務界非常支持？因為我們都看過很多血淋淋的例子，所以對於死刑，我們會認為它有存在的必要性，而不是像一些委員或學者，他們可能認為死刑是另外一套理論。我還是認為這樣啦，不要對我們扣帽子說我們嗜殺、喜歡取人性命，實際上我們還是為了保護眾生才作這樣的堅持，這點我在這邊跟各位報告。至於我本來想提到精神病與死刑的部分，可能就之後談好了，不好意思，因為時間的關係，謝謝二位。"],["主席：部長，針對37個死刑犯，如果法院真的不再羈押，我這裡建議，因為執行是你們的權責嘛，那麼這37位就請15位大法官每個人認養3個，你們把他們送到司法院，由每個大法官輔導他們，給予心理輔導3個月，這樣可能就比較沒有問題了，讓他們跟大法官日以繼夜3個月就好，看看他們受不受得了。謝謝。"],["主席（吳委員宗憲）：先處理會議時間問題，上午會議繼續質詢到所有委員發言完畢為止。","接下來請林淑芬委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":156,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-3","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","鍾佳濱","謝龍介","吳思瑤","羅智強","翁曉玲","陳俊宇","王鴻薇","林淑芬","傅崐萁","楊瓊瓔","廖偉翔","牛煦庭","洪孟楷","林思銘"],"page_start":89,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1138001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署、衛生福利部率所屬相關單位列席就「憲法法庭\n113年度憲判字第8號判決宣示相關法令之檢討與修正」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138001_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}