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繼續加油啦 因為這個我想"},{"start":534.184,"end":559.663,"text":"每一個委員都非常關心這個是草野的公事沒有什麼妥協的空間所以部長你要加油那另外我想我們在打詐這麼長的時間我們這麼積極的一些就是我們有一些作為、宣導這個也會有後遺症部長你也知道嘛也會有後遺症比如說我舉一個例子我有一個朋友他問我"},{"start":561.189,"end":587.566,"text":"他說他接到一個號稱銀行員的電話打給他說你的帳號裡面有一筆款是匯錯的你現在齁把這一筆款匯到我指定的帳號我的朋友沒有理他如果是執密跟部長你們會去按照電話指示去匯款嗎你們兩個會嗎報告委員我連電話都不接你連電話都不接非常好來"},{"start":590.238,"end":603.256,"text":"跟委員報告如果說有接獲到異常的帳戶匯入的話應該要先報案那確認這一筆錢的來源然後避免成為三方詐騙的另外一個加害人我覺得你們兩個也是"},{"start":604.597,"end":630.641,"text":"回答得不錯啦就是這個很簡單明瞭的告訴大家詐騙的模式當中形態當中一個很清楚的樣態啦好那這個現實我說這個叫後遺症是什麼我這個朋友啊他就是因為接到一個銀行員的電話告訴他說有一個人匯錯款到你的戶頭你現在把這個錢轉到哪裡去我朋友聽到他就直接把他掛了他認為這個就是詐騙我覺得我們的教育很成功"},{"start":631.564,"end":653.755,"text":"但是不久之後他就接到那個法院的傳票說人家告他侵佔告侵佔喔這個因為那個真的是匯錯款匯錯款那一個人喔就他匯錯款他跟銀行說我要追討回來銀行幫你通知要嘛通知不到要嘛就是接到電話那個我朋友就直接把他掛掉"},{"start":655.233,"end":679.052,"text":"那所以呢匯錯款的人他的錢拿不回來阿他就跟銀行說你可不可以給我他的資料我自己去找他要說他匯錯款銀行說不行這個資法不可以給他所以匯錯款這個人為了拿回他的錢怎麼辦他就討到警察局去告他還不告民事喔他直接告他侵佔直接告侵佔阿所以呢"},{"start":680.356,"end":708.842,"text":"告完侵占之後我朋友在家裡做什麼都沒幹什麼事情都沒做就忽然說他要出庭啊這詐騙的後...咱宣導詐騙的後遺症啦這個我在總質詢也提出來那個金管會彭主委說他們要好好的去研議這個影響有多大老民就不講了啦第一個錢齁錢匯錯的那一個人要不回來趕著要急著要拿一筆錢拿不回來被匯錯款的人躺在家裡也中槍"},{"start":710.424,"end":727.624,"text":"再來我們的警察機關要接受報案再來我們的檢察署啊這個今天那個師長又來嘛對不對我看了一下你們的資料那個叫做假侵佔最後都沒有是那個假侵佔我會逼雷齁20%"},{"start":729.833,"end":748.331,"text":"你看看一個案子這個都是我們要我很支持要打詐宣導反詐騙的那個後遺症所以這個要來解決不要讓民眾躺著也中槍警察負擔增加檢察官負擔也增加"},{"start":750.1,"end":763.073,"text":"所以這個法務部跟相關的部會我們一起來把這個事情做一個處理啦好不好經管會已經主導要來處理這個事情因為時間的關係啦今天就先問就跟大家問到這裡謝謝好好謝謝蔡昌"}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:33:06 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11:45:51","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請數位發展部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心、法務部、內政部警政署、內政部警政署刑事警察局、金融監督管理委員會就「我國打詐成效與防制」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":659,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（11時33分）謝謝主席。請數發部黃部長。"],["主席：請黃部長。"],["蔡委員其昌：請打擊詐欺指揮中心黃執行秘書。"],["主席：請黃執秘。"],["蔡委員其昌：部長早、執秘早，今天還是以打詐議題就教幾個相關行政部門。部長，數位簽章法通過之後，在9月15日已經公告了，在上個會期已經通過了嘛！"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：我們除了9月15日已經公告一定規模之網路廣告平臺計算基準之外，也要把電子簽章法落實到打詐上，你覺得還要多久時間？"],["黃部長彥男：子法是11月……"],["蔡委員其昌：還有幾個子法沒有通過？"],["林副署長俊秀：有6個子法，12月30日都會公布，現在正在預告當中。"],["蔡委員其昌：12月30日？"],["林副署長俊秀：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：最慢12月30日、也就是今年年底啦！"],["林副署長俊秀：對，因為預告就要到10月21日了。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以這些一定可以達成、通過？好，通過這些子法之後，接下來對於這些平臺業者的要求，就要依照針對電子簽章法所公布的母法、子法來實施、落實，對不對？"],["黃部長彥男：對，就是要用這個技術作實名制的確認。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，那通過之後，到在實際市場上針對民眾可以接觸到的這些網路平臺，能用公權力要求必須透過電子簽章實名認證，這段時間還要多久？"],["黃部長彥男：子法公布、就是打詐專法子法一公布就開始實施。"],["蔡委員其昌：等一下，子法一公布之後？我舉個例子：如果你一公布子法，我開始要申請─因為我可能會在Google、Meta的FB下廣告嘛！譬如說下蔡其昌的政治宣傳─假設，而我下政治宣傳要申請電子簽章嘛！我要去找一家公司申請電子簽章，對不對？程序上是這樣嘛！"],["林副署長俊秀：還有其他的管道跟方法，包括OTP、包括FIDO……"],["蔡委員其昌：對、對、對，但是都要我們的辦公室去申請，不然我是下廣告的人，Meta公司可能就要檢查我是不是本人嘛！對不對？"],["林副署長俊秀：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：這些你們都準備好了嗎？也就是說，你們公布完之後、1月1日開始，我就可以直接找上述這些管道申請、認證我就是蔡其昌本人？"],["黃部長彥男：對。我們當然會跟業者溝通，假設1月1日要開始實施，那業者事先就要公告，1月1日開始，廣告主要先辦好這些程序才能登廣告。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以你們在公告之前就會讓大家開始申請，是嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：對，當然。"],["蔡委員其昌：部長，你現在懂我的意思嗎？這點要先講清楚喔！"],["黃部長彥男：沒錯，當然是這樣。"],["蔡委員其昌：不要等1月1日到了，我們又要在交通委員會罵你們「你不是說1月1日開始就可以開始做了嗎？」，我的意思只是要把程序問清楚。"],["黃部長彥男：對，應該是如此，沒錯。"],["蔡委員其昌：確定喔？好。","部長，關於剛剛黃健豪委員問到的網路詐騙通報查詢網，我們辦公室有幾個助理很認真地在檢舉。我跟你講過嘛！這是令人深惡痛絕的事情，他們常常截了圖就丟給你們、丟給所謂的網路詐騙通報查詢網，所以我們貢獻很多啦！我們還鼓勵更多人都來檢舉。我看了一下在這個所謂查詢網裡面的資料，把它做了一個整理─這也是你們整理的啦！我發現一個很驚人的事實，除非你們的資料有誤啦！從9月5日到10月4日，也就是從10月4日往前推30天嘛！竟然99.94%的詐騙統統發生在Meta系統！部長，這個有沒有誤？"],["黃部長彥男：跟我們一般的了解差不多。"],["蔡委員其昌：差不多嘛！"],["黃部長彥男：對，如同剛剛講的，以詐騙的態樣，很多是從這個平臺進來的。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，我看了一下之後，覺得這家公司就等於臺灣詐騙平臺的溫床嘛！換言之，解決這家公司就可以解決掉99.9%的詐騙案子。"],["黃部長彥男：源頭、源頭。"],["蔡委員其昌：對嘛！是不是這樣，部長？"],["黃部長彥男：是源頭啦！比如說會導入一些私人群組……"],["蔡委員其昌：當然，也就是只要阻斷了它，就沒有後續，因為這裡是源頭嘛！是這樣沒有錯嘛！"],["黃部長彥男：對，目前是這樣，但詐騙集團也會變化。"],["蔡委員其昌：沒關係，我現在不管它未來有什麼研發、創新啦！這些等以後再說。我只是說在現有30天的統計資料裡面，竟然一家公司──Meta就可以囊括99.9%，幾乎源頭都來自於它！部長，這恐怕不是喝咖啡的問題啦！對不對？"],["黃部長彥男：了解。"],["蔡委員其昌：對於老是找Meta來喝咖啡，作為中華民國政府，我們有公權力，如果來源四散，對很多平臺業者都要一一找來溝通，那當然很複雜啦！但看起來只有一家欸！一家公司就佔99.94%、統統發生在這家公司！部長，有沒有更強硬的方法？譬如說可不可以乾脆視為它就是同夥？因為都是在你們公司發生的嘛！不然就是民眾辛苦一輩子賺的血汗錢被騙走了，這種公司要不要一併負責？不然至少也幫忙賠個百分之五十嘛！部長，有沒有什麼其他更積極的手法？不然，在電子簽章法實施之前，我看這個統計數據……執秘，我看了統計數據，詐騙數沒有下來嘛！還在持續增加嘛！"],["黃執行秘書國師：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：對不對？接獲的報案數還在持續增加嘛！"],["黃執行秘書國師：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以可不可以採取一些其他手段？我跟META公司無仇無恨，我只是對詐騙深惡痛絕，所以希望我們可以有一些更積極的手段，讓這些受害的人覺得我們政府有更好的方法、雷厲風行的手段，可以阻止在電子簽章法實施之前的這些詐騙。"],["黃部長彥男：委員剛剛講的沒錯，我們一切都是依法行事，在打詐專法通過之前，我們只能用道德勸說跟剛剛講的喝咖啡的手段，但在打詐專法通過之後，我相信罰款額度是夠的，因為可以罰到1億元，所以應該是有嚇阻的效果。不過剛剛委員講到法案可能可以立得更進一步，就是如果是因為某個平臺而造成損失，是不是平臺商也要負一些責任這方面，這個可以考慮。"],["蔡委員其昌：部長看起來就是一表人才，斯斯文文的，我都怕你火力不足，我看執秘感覺比較強悍一點，執秘是不是也參考一下，看看有沒有什麼其他的方法，這個99.9的占比實在是太離譜了啦！太離譜了，對不對？我看到這個數字嚇一跳啊！執秘有沒有什麼方法可以給主委建議一下？"],["黃執行秘書國師：跟委員報告，詐欺危害防制條例裡面就律定了很嚴格的處罰手段，第一階段是讓業者要落地，接下來是要能夠在源頭做自主管理，以臉書的現況來講，我們了解到只要是在還沒有預告以前，目前接獲到民眾通報的都有在24小時內就下架了，未來我們會做溯源的追查。"],["蔡委員其昌：好啦！繼續加油啦！因為我想這個是每一個委員都非常關心的，也是朝野的共識，沒有什麼妥協的空間，所以部長你要加油。"],["黃部長彥男：好。"],["蔡委員其昌：另外，我想在打詐這麼長的時間內，我們有一些積極的作為和宣導，這個也會有後遺症，部長你也知道嘛，也會有後遺症。我舉一個例子，譬如我有一個朋友，他說他接到一個號稱銀行員的電話，告訴他說「你的帳號裡面有一筆款是匯錯的，你現在把這一筆款匯到我指定的帳號」，我的朋友沒有理他，如果是執秘跟部長，你們會按照電話指示去匯款嗎？你們兩個會嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，我連電話都不接。"],["蔡委員其昌：你連電話都不接，非常好。"],["黃執行秘書國師：跟委員報告，如果有接獲異常帳戶匯入的話，應該要先報案，確認這一筆錢的來源，避免成為三方詐騙的另外一個加害人。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，我覺得你們兩個也是回答得不錯啦！就是很簡單明瞭的告訴大家詐騙的模式當中、型態當中一個很清楚的樣態。那這個sense，我說這個後遺症是什麼？我這個朋友就是接到一個銀行員的電話，告訴他說有一個人匯錯款到你的戶頭，你現在把這個錢轉到哪裡去，我朋友聽到就直接把電話掛了，他認為這個就是詐騙，我覺得我們的教育很成功，但是不久之後，他就接到法院的傳票，說是人家告他侵占，告侵占喔！因為那個真的是匯錯款啊！匯錯款那個人跟銀行說要追討回來，銀行幫著通知，要嘛通知不到，要嘛就是接到電話的人比如我朋友就直接把它掛掉，匯錯款那人的錢拿不回來啊，他就問銀行可不可以給他我朋友的資料，表示要自己去追討，說他匯錯款，銀行說不行，這涉及個資法，不可以給他，匯錯款這個人為了拿回他的錢要怎麼辦呢？他就跑到警察局去提告，而且還不是告民事喔！他直接告侵占，直接告侵占啊！所以我朋友在家裡什麼都沒幹，什麼事情都沒做，就忽然被告知他要出庭，這是我們宣導詐騙的後遺症啦！這個我在總質詢也有提出來，金管會彭主委說他們要好好的去研議，這個影響有多大？擾民就不講了啦，第一個是匯錯那一個人的錢要不回來，趕著、急著要拿那筆錢卻拿不回來，而被匯錯款的人躺在家裡也中槍。其次是我們的警察機關要接受報案；再來是我們的檢察署，今天司長也有來嘛，我看了一下你們的資料，那個叫做假侵占啦！假侵占案的比例高達20%。我很支持要打詐啦，但是你看，一個案子喔，這些都是我們宣導反詐騙的後遺症，這個也是要來解決，不要讓民眾躺著也中槍，警察負擔增加，檢察官負擔也增加，所以請法務部跟相關部會，我們一起把這個事情做一個處理，好不好？金管會已經主導要來處理這個事情。因為時間的關係，今天就先問到這裡。謝謝！"],["主席（黃委員健豪代）：謝謝蔡其昌委員，謝謝部長。","我們接下來請魯明哲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":88,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-4","speakers":["魯明哲","林國成","許智傑","林俊憲","林沛祥","李昆澤","何欣純","陳素月","游顥","黃健豪","蔡其昌","魯明哲","邱若華","廖先翔","陳雪生","徐富癸","洪孟楷","李坤城","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","黃國昌","羅智強","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","邱志偉","郭國文","林月琴","陳冠廷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1138001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請數位發展部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心、法務部、\n內政部警政署、內政部警政署刑事警察局、金融監督管理委員會就「我國打詐成效與防制」進行\n專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138001_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}