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我的擔心就是你現在要做這個代理主委你到底適不適合你覺得你適不適合"},{"start":115.902,"end":126.412,"text":"明哲你是不是,你講報告委員我那個我是按照組織法第4條那個行政院提名但是我也尊重那個立法院的審查權好"},{"start":128.137,"end":156.976,"text":"我真的覺得你很不適合一方面你前仗後仗真的不清不楚你很尷尬我覺得你是從基層出身的你不是什麼教授政治人物轉過來的我覺得這個晚節要保你一路來你專業取勝的你過去也很低調那你現在被放在這個位置我個人真的覺得很尷尬對我來講你是前委員我覺得你不適合兩點的理由第一個是我看到你過去"},{"start":159.138,"end":164.581,"text":"後面我來了解了基層公務人員出身這是好事長官的命令使命必達我專業取向那這個陳耀祥說什麼就算什麼"},{"start":186.906,"end":202.058,"text":"那這種你要接這個主委你覺得我們NCC還是不是一個獨立要公正不能有政黨色彩的一個機構你認為是不是不管你是不是代理主委啦你認為這個機構是怎麼樣是不是應該這個終止"},{"start":205.641,"end":232.39,"text":"報言我們應該獨立公正那有關於那個不同意見書或協同意見書我有寫過我有寫就是對於因為我的專長是在電信所以說電信的合併或者是頻譜的轉讓我都有寫協同意見書所以電視沒有啦電信有對是因為我的專長是在電信那頻譜的交易或者是電信公司之間的合併好我知道我知道"},{"start":233.03,"end":245.899,"text":"那我們最最最民眾關心爭議的部分那你還是遵照這個陳耀祥的一個指令嘛投下那一票所以我覺得你這個真的不太適合耶到底我們獨立公正吵了這麼久"},{"start":247.267,"end":273.166,"text":"那現在你來接到底是要銷規朝隨繼續延續我們陳前主委的政策我是受不了第二個我覺得你真的要趕快辭職的原因是你有辱這個獨立公正的機構媒體訪問你你說你這個代理主委你到底怎麼看有什麼委員有意見你其中有一句話讓我真的是很驚豔然後到驚嚇你說"},{"start":275.387,"end":301.793,"text":"我主要是配合行政院的命令來代理院長配合行政院你什麼叫獨立的機構你知道嗎什麼叫獨立的機構你獨立的機構你獨立思考你這個機構面臨行政院有錯的時候你要站出來去挑戰他總統有問題的時候你要堅定你的獨立公正的立場不收任何黨派來去來去這個管制可是我告訴你你會講我的信念就這樣我會說"},{"start":303.433,"end":328.119,"text":"不可能啊為什麼因為你的命懸一線要你幹不要你幹這個線過去在立法院多黨派的委員表決合一之下現在兩條線一個木偶拉在總統跟行政院手上你要告訴我我就配合行政院其實是總統的一個指令配合府院嘛哇好感人喔配合府院你以後我只有這個"},{"start":329.139,"end":351.66,"text":"做代理主委配合他有所有NCC各項的需要獨立的我都不會配合他你騙誰啊你騙誰啊你現在我坦白講他把你剪掉再見了所以我是覺得在這種情況之下我希望你要知所進退啦因為我真的不認為你是真的主委啦那請回座接下來我們請這個"},{"start":355.888,"end":379.245,"text":"事務部 黃部長好 我們請黃部長警政署 李副組長還有我們打詐中心的黃子敏那後面就稍微問快一點這個因為打詐我們上上一任也是在交通委員會還有很多的委員會大家打詐已經講了過去至少我聽到在立法院已經四年到第五年了"},{"start":380.222,"end":397.939,"text":"那我覺得我們小英總統到現在的我們賴總統都不斷的宣誓不斷的透過組織版本也不斷的更新打詐1.0、1.5、2.0不斷的推陳出新我必須要說我在交通委員會讓我最感覺安心的"},{"start":398.78,"end":416.599,"text":"打詐的那半天就是每一次打詐的專案報告看到你們報告四平八穩歌功頌德不斷地改善讓我真的含淚但是一回去回到我們人間的時候發覺不是那麼回事耶越打越詐"},{"start":418.988,"end":434.375,"text":"110年到112年你們看這個數字嘛一年大概2萬多到3萬多的數字成長率不斷的增加就是到112年嘛因為你們今年可能有改變啊可能沒講清楚嘛但是一年2萬多3萬的一個件數啊"},{"start":439.832,"end":463.479,"text":"剛剛黃俊浩委員也說我們過去然後財損從110年到112年3年的產損大概51到88.751到81這是警政署在這邊你們的刑事局提供的一個數字截至我們去年在問的時候今年上半會議在問的時候還是88.7那就請教一下"},{"start":465.031,"end":482.468,"text":"前三年加起來218億前三年我們國人被詐騙的財損218億三年加起來結果呢我們今年右邊是我們一到八月這個被詐欺的概況我們現在七到八月總共加起來248億"},{"start":484.793,"end":485.053,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":505.427,"end":519.523,"text":"當任副局長這個數字也是你們填上去你們彙整的嘛到了7月的時候你還是刑事局的副局長你從頭到尾都是你請教一下請教一下1到6月平均每個月8.7的財損怎麼會變到7月8月"},{"start":526.618,"end":551.31,"text":"8.7喔!下一個月是100多億的變化的巧妙在哪裡?跟你說一下是,跟委員報告,謝謝委員關心這個數據的問題喔!那個一到六月這個統計的基準跟去年前年的基準都是一樣我們都是用刑案的紀錄表在做統計的這都是民眾報案以後到後端的偵查的結果以後再去做呈報可是因為我們因為今年要推出這個打詐以表版要第一時間"},{"start":552.35,"end":573.388,"text":"讓民眾知道我們那個受理的狀況所以我們把這個統計的期程改變了就是只要民眾一來警察機關報案不管他報的是不是糾紛是不是還有需要查證我們一蓋就收納所以所有的金額我們都一蓋把它放進來所以才會有大幅增長的情形部長你也辛苦了"},{"start":575.134,"end":594.24,"text":"但是我覺得有點鬼扯當然第一個至少打臉的剛剛黃部長沒有啦是因為去年有些人沒報案啦一聽到我們有打詐司法過了很激動的搶來報案不是這樣嘛是因為過去你是從哪裡是收案來統計數字還是由司法判決你說你跟他講的完全不一樣"},{"start":595.2,"end":623.79,"text":"那再來為什麼說你這個有點有點鬼扯啊為什麼呢因為我過去一整年按理說你110年的數字會不斷的變動隨著司法的判決結案會不斷的成長111年也不斷的成長可是我告訴你你這個數字啊從我們去年報到今年數字都沒有變你是講說今天列管的我們法務部什麼事都沒有做整整的一兩年一個案都沒有結我告訴你"},{"start":624.946,"end":647.3,"text":"我是覺得齁我們要解決詐騙喔第一個政府的數字不要再詐騙了現在所有的你們所有的報告裡面你們有很多美化的文字齁或者有一些真真假假的藏在中間或者有一些報喜不報憂的那沒有辦法你們要這樣寫可是問題是數字台灣數字詐欺這個數字我們能看嗎我只覺得"},{"start":653.775,"end":678.21,"text":"這個有很政治性欸很政治性啊在我的看法哇塞哇賴清德總統一上任真的完全不注重詐騙才上任還沒占五二零上任之後7月增加10倍過去8.7變成110億財損哎呦賴政府不行啊感覺是你們是在打臉新潮嗎還是"},{"start":680.783,"end":694.361,"text":"還是在打臉救的沒有我們現在是公開透明一清二楚是過去有一個人一直藏一直藏藏不住我們才拿出來到底哪個啊你們回去真的好好去想想最後最後我要拜託黃部長"},{"start":698.953,"end":720.824,"text":"好 拜託你 因為我們也發覺不光是打詐事法在過去我們不斷的去加嚴打詐不管希望他受到的我們就是不管是偵辦的快速甚至後面的一個後果不斷的增加但是我們看到112年最新的一樣警政署的統計表"},{"start":723.085,"end":749.896,"text":"這個我不覺得不有趣啊 一點都不有趣我覺得很擔心嫌疑犯的部分比110年相對來講0到17歲112年比110年喔你們的表格 唉呦增加了31.53大概三分 超過差不多三分之一啊就說 我不太理解是不是因為我們的可能犯罪的成本越來越高"},{"start":750.556,"end":772.389,"text":"我們乾脆找一些18歲以下的年輕人去弄是不是這樣然後呢我也看到警政署也做了很多的校園去宣導他到底有沒有效果你們每一年都做蠻多的會不會你要宣導的人他早就翹課了他早就是失聯的學生了你再怎麼宣導他也不會來我不知道什麼原因但是如果這個數據是正確的我覺得這個黃部長你有什麼想法嗎"},{"start":777.086,"end":792.595,"text":"對於降德的如果嫌疑犯年輕化的趨勢把我們7月通過的打詐釋法對於成人的犯抓到會更嚴 跑不掉會不會這個趨勢更增加然後要怎麼辦 你有什麼想法"},{"start":796.069,"end":812.079,"text":"報告委員這個青少年增基增這個我覺得這個基本上一個就是我們在教育上真的要好好的加強因為這個實在是不應該發生的事情那當然現在因為這個將來是希望從源頭就斷了就是說希望"},{"start":814.881,"end":831.828,"text":"不管怎樣讓剛剛講就從這個網路的因為年輕人很多會利用網路希望說在網路上能夠多一些宣傳多一些這個不管是嚇阻的效果讓年輕人知道說你從事詐欺將來還是要還是一個可能還是會受嚴重的"},{"start":832.168,"end":849.743,"text":"好回去再想一想齁因為這個連教育部都有關係想一想想一想可能是宗措生但不行喔搞不好不是他們喔他們到底在哪裡到底發生什麼事或者為什麼零到十七歲會增加你們去想想要怎麼樣去防制新的"},{"start":850.444,"end":851.285,"text":"目前是馬事源指揮官"},{"start":874.198,"end":885.612,"text":"喔好那你回去跟他講一下好不好應該是對症下藥不要每一年的維新費用甚至相關的防治費用都投在相同的一個地方要分散這是我個人的建議謝謝"}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"11:46:05 - 12:00:53","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請數位發展部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心、法務部、內政部警政署、內政部警政署刑事警察局、金融監督管理委員會就「我國打詐成效與防制」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":720,"blocks":[["魯委員明哲：（11時46分）謝謝主席！首先有請NCC翁柏宗先生來列席一下。"],["主席：我們請NCC翁柏宗委員列席。"],["魯委員明哲：這個翁先生啊！這是為什麼呢？因為你今天不管是在院會、在交通委員會，在整個列席備詢的身分上，其實受到很多的關心啦！對我來說，你目前的身分最多是翁前主委，是前主委！前主委的任期到7月31號已經截止了，但你前帳未清，後面借款又來了，後面提了4個名單，本來是前朝提的，現在已經付委了嘛，既然已經交到委員會，就表示我們卓院長也認同這個名單，也就是說你前帳未清後面又來了，也就疑似要挑戰立法院通過的NCC組織法嘛！不能延任你也延了，不能連任第三次你也送進來了，這個坦白講，如果是打臉我魯明哲就算了，打臉藍白就算了，但是NCC的法規是立法院通過的，是整個立法院這個機構通過的，所以我覺得你到立法院到底尊不尊重立法院是第一個問題。第二個是我擔心你現在要擔任這個代理主委到底適不適合，你覺得你適不適合？"],["翁代理主任委員柏宗：報告委員，我是按照組織法第四條由行政院提名的，但是我也尊重立法院的審查權。"],["魯委員明哲：好，我真的覺得你很不適合啦！一方面是你前帳後帳真的不清不楚，你很尷尬。我覺得你是從基層出身的，你不是什麼教授、政治人物轉過來的，我覺得這個晚節要保啊！一路走來你是以專業取勝的，過去也很低調嘛，那你現在被放到這個位置，我個人真的覺得很尷尬。對我來講，你是前委員，我覺得你不適合的理由有兩點，第一個是我看到你過去在NCC裡面的過程，委員會中有很多的委員提不同意見書，只有我們翁柏宗副主委從來沒有意見！中天新聞、鏡電視什麼的人家有意見，通過之後委員有不同意見，你從來沒有意見！後面我瞭解了，基層公務人員出身這是好事，長官的命令使命必達，以專業取向，這個陳耀祥說什麼就算什麼，你要接任這個主委，你覺得我們NCC還是不是一個獨立、公正、不能有政黨色彩的機構？你認為是不是？不管你是不是代理主委，你認為這個機構是怎麼樣？是不是應該維護這個宗旨？"],["翁代理主任委員柏宗：報告委員，我們應該獨立公正，關於不同意見書或協同意見書，我也有寫過，因為我的專長是在電信，所以對電信的合併或者是頻譜的轉讓，我都有寫協同意見書。"],["魯委員明哲：所以電視沒有，電信有。"],["翁代理主任委員柏宗：對，因為我的專長是在電信，頻譜的交易或者是電信公司之間的合併……"],["魯委員明哲：我知道，那是我們民眾最最最關心爭議的部分，你還是遵照陳耀祥的指令投下那一票，所以我覺得你真的不太適合耶！到底有沒有獨立公正吵了這麼久，現在你來接任，到底是要蕭規曹隨，繼續延續我們陳前主委的政策，我是受不了齁！第二個，我覺得你真的要趕快辭職的原因是你有辱這個獨立公正的機構！媒體訪問你說你這個代理主委對有這麼多委員有意見到底怎麼看，你其中有一句話讓我真的是很驚艷然後到驚嚇，你說「我主要是配合行政院的命令來代理院長」，配合行政院？你知道什麼叫獨立的機構嗎？什麼叫獨立的機構？獨立機構要獨立思考，你這個機構在面臨行政院有錯的時候，要站出來去挑戰它，在總統有問題的時候，你要堅定你獨立、公正的立場，不受任何黨派管制，可是我告訴你，你會講「我的信念就是這樣」，我會說不可能啊！為什麼？因為你的命懸一線，要你幹不要你幹這個線，過去在立法院多黨派的委員表決合議之下，現在兩條線一個木偶拉在總統跟行政院手上，你告訴我「我就配合行政院」，其實是總統的一個指令，配合府院嘛！哇！好感人喔！配合府院，你說以後只有我這個代理主委配合他，以後所有NCC各項需要獨立的都不會配合他，你騙誰啊？你騙誰啊？我坦白講現在他把你剪掉，再見了！所以我是覺得在這種情況之下，我希望你要知所進退，因為我真的不認為你是真的主委啦！請回座。","接下來請教數位部黃部長、警政署李副署長，還有打詐中心的黃執秘。"],["主席：我們請黃部長、李副署長和黃執秘。"],["魯委員明哲：接下我會稍微問得快一點，因為打詐這件事，我上一任也在交通委員會，還有很多委員會，過去大家講到打詐已經講了很久，至少我在立法院聽到的已經有4到5年了，我們小英總統到現在的賴總統都不斷地宣示，不斷地透過組織，版本也不斷地更新，打詐1.0版、1.5版、2.0版，不斷地推陳出新，我必須要說，我在交通委員會讓我最感覺安心的打詐的那半天，就是每一次的打詐專案報告，看到你們的報告四平八穩、歌功頌德，不斷地改善，讓我真的含淚，但是一回去回到我們人間的時候，就發覺不是那麼那麼回事欸，越打越詐欸！你們看這個數字，110年到112年，一年大概二萬多到三萬多，成長率不斷地增加，這是到112年，因為你們今年可能有改變啊，可能沒講清楚，但是一年有二萬多到3萬的件數。剛剛我們也說到過去從110年到112年，三年的財損大概50億元到88.7億元，這是警政署刑事局截至我們今年上半會期詢問時提供的一個數字，那我就請教一下，前三年加起來我們國人被詐騙的財損達218億元，螢幕上這個圖右邊是今年1到8月被詐欺的概況，尤其是7到8月總共加起來就是248億元，這兩個月很輕鬆的超越了過去三年的218億元。先請警政署說明一下，因為這個數字是你們提供的，我想先請教副局長，因為你是關鍵證人，怎麼說呢？因為從今年1月你就擔任副局長，這個數字也是你們彙整的，到了7月的時候，你還是刑事局的副局長，從頭到尾都是你。請教一下，1到6月平均每個月8.7億元的財損，怎麼到了7、8月就從8.7億元增長到一個月百多億元？這變化的巧妙在哪裡？"],["黃副局長壬聰：跟委員報告，謝謝委員關心這個數據的問題，1到6月統計的基準跟去年、前年的基準一樣，我們都是用刑案的紀錄表在做統計的，這都是民眾報案以後到後端偵查的結果後再去做呈報。可是因為我們今年要推出這個打詐儀錶板，要在第一時間讓民眾知道我們受理的狀況，所以我們把統計的期程改變了，改成只要民眾一來警察機關報案，不管他報的是不是糾紛，是不是還需要查證，我們一概收納，所有金額也都一概放進來，所以才會有大幅增長的情形。"],["魯委員明哲：副局長你也辛苦了，但我覺得這有點鬼扯，第一個至少打臉了黃部長，「喔！沒有啦！是因為去年有些人沒報案啦！一聽到我們打詐4法過了就很激動的搶來報案」，原來不是這樣嘛，是因為你們過去是從收案還是由司法判決來統計數字，你剛剛講的完全不一樣。再來，我為什麼說你這個說法有點鬼扯，因為過去一整年，按理說110年的數字會不斷的變動，隨著司法的判決結案會不斷的成長，其實111年也不斷的成長，可是我告訴你，這個數字從去年到今年都沒有變，你是說今天列管的，我們法務部什麼事都沒有做，整整一、兩年，一個案都沒有結？我告訴你，我是覺得我們要解決詐騙，首先要做到政府的數字不要再詐騙了，現在你們所有的報告裡面有很多美化的文字，或者有一些真真假假的藏在中間，或者有些報喜不報憂的，那沒有辦法，你們要這樣寫，問題是數字臺灣、數字詐欺，這個數字我們能看嗎？我只覺得這個很政治性欸！很政治性啊！在我的看法是「哇塞！賴清德總統一上任，真的完全不注重詐騙」，在520上任之後，7月就增加10倍，財損從過去的8.7億元變成110億元，唉唷！賴政府不行啊！感覺是你們在打臉新朝嗎？還是在打臉舊的？沒有！我們現在是公開、透明，一清二楚，是過去有一個人一直藏、一直藏，藏不住了我們才拿出來嗎？到底是哪個？你們回去真的要好好想一下。","最後我要拜託黃部長，因為我們也發覺，事實上不光是打詐4法，在過去我們不斷的去加嚴打詐，不管是偵辦的快速，甚至後面的一個後果，不斷的增加，但是我們看到警政署112年最新的統計表，這個我覺得不有趣啊！一點都不有趣，我覺得很擔心。嫌疑犯的部分，相對110年來講，0到17歲這個年齡層，112年比110年增加了31.53%，差不多三分之一啊！我不太理解，是不是因為我們的犯罪成本越來越高，就乾脆找一些18歲以下年輕人去弄，是不是這樣？然後我也看到警政署到校園做了很多宣導，這到底有沒有效果？你們每一年都做滿多的，會不會你要宣導的人他早就蹺課了，他早就是失聯的學生了，你再怎麼宣導他也不會來？我不知道什麼原因，但是如果這個數據是正確的，請問黃部長你對於這樣的嫌疑犯年輕化的趨勢有什麼想法嗎？我們7月通過的打詐4法，對於成年犯的追捕會更嚴，跑不掉，會不會讓上述這個趨勢更增加？然後要怎麼辦？你有什麼想法？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，青少年激增這部分，我覺得基本上，一個就是我們在教育上真的要好好的加強，因為這個實在是不應該發生的事情，當然將來是希望從源頭就斷了，就是說希望不管怎樣，剛剛講就從網路這方面，因為年輕人很多會利用網路，我希望能在網路上多一些宣傳，多一些嚇阻的效果，讓年輕人知道說你從事詐欺，將來還是會受嚴重的懲罰。"],["魯委員明哲：好，回去再想一想，因為這個連教育部都有關係，想一想，想一想！可能是中輟生，不行喔！搞不好不是他們喔！他們到底在哪裡，到底發生什麼事，或者為何麼0到17歲會增加，你們去想一想，要怎麼樣去防制，新的媒宣費用不要蕭規曹隨，前年、去年怎麼去用，你真的要對症下藥。對於這些長輩，比較網路相對的弱勢，我們怎麼樣真的要透過組織、鄰里系統去接觸，我也希望黃執秘，你回去跟次長，這個是哪一位？你們的leader是誰？"],["黃執行秘書國師：目前是馬士元指揮官。"],["魯委員明哲：喔！好，你回去跟他講一下好不好？"],["黃執行秘書國師：好，是。"],["魯委員明哲：對症下藥，不要每一年的媒宣費用，甚至相關的防制費用，都投在相同的一個地方，要分散，這是我個人的建議，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，好，謝謝魯明哲委員，謝謝所有備詢的官員。好，接下來請邱若華委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":88,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-4","speakers":["魯明哲","林國成","許智傑","林俊憲","林沛祥","李昆澤","何欣純","陳素月","游顥","黃健豪","蔡其昌","魯明哲","邱若華","廖先翔","陳雪生","徐富癸","洪孟楷","李坤城","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","黃國昌","羅智強","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","邱志偉","郭國文","林月琴","陳冠廷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1138001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請數位發展部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心、法務部、\n內政部警政署、內政部警政署刑事警察局、金融監督管理委員會就「我國打詐成效與防制」進行\n專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138001_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}