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現在埃國哲這些後面的182億這豐豐益益我也不見得說一定要相信媒體在這裡的指責但是今天所有的委員都一直在執行這些我的歸納、我的理解特別提供給部長做參考"},{"start":187.679,"end":208.955,"text":"這不是一個制度的問題嗎?部長你針對這些我固然不問你說是真是假是否我們有失職可是最起碼的話身為部長一定要了解這個到底是環節在哪邊出問題部長針對這兩個愛國者的182億還有"},{"start":215.299,"end":219.441,"text":"我個人理解是制度出問題部長你針對這兩件事你有什麼看法"},{"start":235.425,"end":263.302,"text":"跟委員報告第一點就是說跟美國的軍售沒有佣金這個問題存在因為是跟美國政府直接簽約的美國政府是根據他的這個跟廠商所取得的報價資料保定保定保定我是非常誠懇針對問題佣金的問題當然也不要去使這個天經地義美國本來就有這個制度只是沒有這個制度"},{"start":263.982,"end":284.525,"text":"沒有這個制度美國沒有這個制度美國沒有這樣的軍售方面沒有這個制度至於委員講的那個182億可能是另外一個事情就是有關那個愛國者未來的重建策案那這個剛剛已經都回答過了就是說他因為這個導引的相關斷件他到期了以後他要逐步更換"},{"start":285.206,"end":311.353,"text":"所以這個愛國者飛彈的重建策案呢就要編的這個預算是要來做更換這個導引等相關的斷件那這個部分呢是也後來文件補齊之後也報告立法院是做一個新建的一個部長你這個已經跟委員解釋過我了解了我了解我現在問你的花生這個問題"},{"start":313.033,"end":335.821,"text":"是否跟整個制度有問題我要問你這個問題有沒有發現到是制度的一個問題要不要改變制度的問題您說改變對這整個包括採購包括整個那個和審這整整包括什麼支付的經費的等等是不是這裡有出問題"},{"start":337.508,"end":360.99,"text":"軍售的這個部分的話我們必須跟美方在密切的這個溝通來如何加強這個有關於如果說這是一個詐欺的這個案件的話那因為經過這個事件之後我們當然要跟美方做一個溝通協調了解是在哪一個環節上面然後因為這美方主動集合察覺了嗎是吧所以美方"},{"start":361.63,"end":388.17,"text":"主動集合察覺的這個點在什麼地方,那我們等這個調查成功告一段落後,我們會...所以啊,那個部長,所以我在這裡啊,以我個人之前見,基本上這整個就是我們在經過過程當中,這裡面的機制問題要去改進跟加強,改進跟加強,所以提供給部長,你去做參考,"},{"start":389.551,"end":416.229,"text":"這個有沒有必要重新去研擬一下在這個整個機合制度是否出問題才會產生這些種種的猜疑跟矛盾所以本席是提供給部長去做參考你仔細因為你仔細去參考一下這個是不是在這個制度去吃問題那另外一個我要用簡短的時間再來請教部長"},{"start":417.506,"end":431.962,"text":"也就是明年的我們的阿兵哥的額度是減少的尤其我比較在乎的也就是離島跟外島的兵力部長為什麼要減少"},{"start":434.059,"end":455.078,"text":"跟委員報告沒有減少這個有關相關的預算的顏額那個我們事實上如果說因為我們現在已經開始實施一年期的一五一了所以如果你將志願役的顏額跟一五一的顏額加起來的話外導的這個顏額是增加的並不是減少"},{"start":456.104,"end":464.113,"text":"我這裡的數據,你們給我的數據,這個顏額是離島減少,所以這個部分我特別提供給部長,為什麼會減少,離島減少主要的原因,這個當然啦,因為"},{"start":476.186,"end":478.509,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為。"},{"start":493.866,"end":517.623,"text":"跟委員報告,因為我們預算顏額跟這個限顏,過去預算顏額拉了比較高一點,所以有些人員的維持費並沒有用掉,那我這一次是希望他們能夠務實的編列,就根據限顏數來做一個比較務實的編列,所以大家會以為說因為預算顏額的減少,而好像這個編制人數或者限顏減少,但事實上實際的狀況應該是我們預算顏額過去可能"},{"start":520.545,"end":535.858,"text":"一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、七、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、"},{"start":542.659,"end":558.52,"text":"我們牽涉到我們的軍事戰力的問題沒有人就沒有戰力所以我特別要提醒部長你怎麼樣去調配我想我們都尊重但是我們發現這個問題再度提供給部長去做參考"},{"start":559.201,"end":575.385,"text":"因為你需要保護中華民國的所以我們怕你一時的散失然後撕掉離島撕掉外島這是划不來的好不好所以沒有我想謝謝委員指教我們應該沒有大減這個外離島的這個緣額的問題存在我們只是將"},{"start":581.846,"end":584.429,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為"}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:17:01 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12:26:53","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：邀請國防部部長報告一、「台美國防工業會議成效及合作現況與未來展望」，並備質詢。二、「針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為」，並備質詢。【機密】）","gazette":{"lineno":687,"blocks":[["林委員國成：（12時17分）好，謝謝主席，請顧部長。"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：林委員好。"],["林委員國成：好。顧部長，說實在，從你上任到現在，文人部長當然有文人部長的風範，但是本席在這裡特別說有些我肯定，有些我是不以為然。因為我是當過兵的人，我也知道軍中的風氣跟習慣，所以有些當然可以用文人部長的立場去做文化的各種改革，有些軍事的部分是不太宜用文人的思想去做改變。這一點我特別要勉勵部長，沒有指責的意思，但是軍中之事，部長責任重大，保衛國家，部長責任非常之重大。","但是今天從早上到現在，我看到部裡所有的將軍們在答詢問題的時候，每一個立法院同事的質詢有兩種，也就是軍購的問題，就是大家一直在講我們是「盤仔」。事實上我們有不得已的苦衷，當初我們買到武器就覺得心安理得。但是有些在整個軍購的價格方面，確確實實我們也難以開口照單全收。這個部分，我想軍購這麼久以來，我們要重探討，從尹清楓案件到現在已經二十幾年，就是佣金的問題嘛！這些以少報多或以多報高，這個我們都不要談，佣金的問題是合理，但是有些事情是一個制度出問題。","所以從國防部雷神這件案子，從愛國者後面的182億元，風風雨雨，我也不見得一定要相信媒體在這裡的指責，但是今天所有的委員都一直在質詢這些，我特別提供我的歸納和理解給部長做參考，這不是一個制度的問題嗎？部長，針對這些我固然不問你是真、是假、是否我們有失職，可是最起碼你身為部長，一定要瞭解這個到底環節在哪邊出問題。","部長，針對愛國者的182億元，還有雷神的採購等等這兩個案子，雖然是美國發現的，我們當然也相信美國，但是為什麼會產生這個問題？我個人理解是制度出問題。部長，針對這兩件事，你有什麼看法？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，第一點，跟美國的軍售沒有佣金這個問題存在，因為是跟美國政府直接簽約的，美國政府是根據它跟廠商所取得的報價，再把它做成本分析……"],["林委員國成：部長，我是非常誠懇針對問題，佣金的問題當然也不要去……這個是天經地義，美國本來就有這個制度，只是人家……"],["顧部長立雄：美國沒有這個制度。"],["林委員國成：沒有這個制度？"],["顧部長立雄：美國沒有這個制度，美國沒有這樣的，軍售案沒有……至於委員講的那個182億元，可能是另外一個事情，就是有關愛國者飛彈的重鑑測案。這個剛剛已經都回答過了，就是因為導引等的相關段件到期了以後，它要逐步更換，所以愛國者飛彈的重鑑測案要編的預算是要來做更換導引等相關的段件。這個部分後來文件補齊之後，也報到立法院，是做一個新建的……"],["林委員國成：部長，你這個已經跟委員解釋過，我瞭解了……"],["顧部長立雄：對，所以不是……"],["林委員國成：我現在問你的是，發生這個問題是否跟整個制度有關係，我要問你有沒有發現到是制度的一個問題？是要不要改變制度的問題？"],["顧部長立雄：你說改變……"],["林委員國成：對，這整個包括採購、包括核審，以及支付的經費等等，是不是這裡有出問題？"],["顧部長立雄：軍售的這個部分，我們必須跟美方再密切地溝通來如何加強有關於……如果說這是一個詐欺案件的話，經過這個事件之後，我們當然要跟美方做一個溝通協調，瞭解是在哪一個環節上面，因為這是美方主動稽核察覺的……"],["林委員國成：是吧？所以……"],["顧部長立雄：美方主動稽核察覺的點在什麼地方，我們等這個調查程序告一段落之後，我們會……"],["林委員國成：部長，所以我在這裡，以我個人之淺見，基本上這就是我們在整個軍購過程當中的機制問題要改進和加強，所以提供給部長去做參考，這個有沒有必要重新去研擬一下？在整個稽核制度是否出問題，才會產生這些種種的差異跟矛盾？所以本席是提供給部長去做參考。請你仔細去參考一下，看看是不是在這個制度上出了問題。","另外，我要用簡短的時間再來請教部長，也就是明年我們阿兵哥的額度是減少的，尤其我比較在乎的，就是離島跟外島的兵力。部長，為什麼要減少？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，沒有減少相關預算的員額。因為我們現在已經開始實施一年期的義務役了，所以如果你將志願役的員額跟義務役的員額加起來的話，外島的員額是增加的，並不是減少。"],["林委員國成：沒有！根據你們給我的數據，員額是離島減少，所以這個部分我特別提供給部長，為什麼會減少？離島減少主要的原因是什麼？當然因為可能是底下給你的數據，如果我們從歷年來做比較的話，確實如此，我只擔心的是不要放棄離島、不要放棄外島，因為兵力的戰力是非常重要的。"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，因為我們預算員額跟現員，過去預算員額拉得比較高一點，所以有些人員的維持費並沒有用掉。我這次是希望他們能夠務實地編列，就根據現員數來做一個比較務實編列，所以大家會以為說，因為預算員額的減少，而好像編制人數或者現員減少，但事實上實際的狀況應該是我們預算員額過去可能跟實際員額編得高一點……"],["林委員國成：員額啦！這個……"],["顧部長立雄：那我們現在把它做一個比較務實的編列，所以沒有……"],["林委員國成：是啦！部長，因為最主要是發現問題，提供給你做參考。軍方的事當然以你為主，但是立法委員發現到這個問題，我們滿擔心的，不能放棄離島，不能放棄外島，這是牽涉到我們軍事戰力的問題，沒有人就沒有戰力。所以我特別要提醒部長，你怎麼樣去調配，我們都尊重，但是我們發現這個問題，再度提供給部長去做參考。因為你需要保護中華民國，所以我們怕你一時的閃失，然後失掉離島、失掉外島，這是划不來的，好不好？"],["顧部長立雄：謝謝委員指教，我們應該沒有大減外、離島員額的問題存在，我們只是在預算員額上面比較務實地做一個編列。"],["林委員國成：好，這個特別要提供給部長做參考，好不好？"],["顧部長立雄：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林國成委員，部長請回。我們依往例中午不休息，等所有登記質詢的委員詢答結束再行散會。","接下來我們請黃國昌委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":236,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-2","speakers":["林憶君","黃仁","沈伯洋","羅美玲","馬文君","洪申翰","徐巧芯","王定宇","林楚茵","陳永康","陳冠廷","賴士葆","林國成","黃國昌","林俊憲","鍾佳濱","鄭正鈐","洪孟楷","張啓楷","黃珊珊","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":165,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1137901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長報告：一、「台美國防工業會議成效及合作現況與未來展望」，並備質詢；二、\n「針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為」，並備質詢【機\n密】","agenda_id":"1137901_00005"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}