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State這是國務院官方網站這個稱不稱為官方資訊我覺得不會拿來路不明的媒體寫一些來路不明的資訊上來諮詢"},{"start":90.422,"end":116.189,"text":"這樣就不負責任嘛這是美國國務院他們公開在網站上面SEC官方文件也出來了我為什麼會關心這件事情美國國務院說從2017年8月到2023年9月雷神公司因為經過好幾次的合併現在合併完了以後跟名叫做RTXRTX這家公司幹了什麼事情"},{"start":117.129,"end":136.254,"text":"國防物品機密資料沒有經過授權就出口到中國去我看了這個報告我很擔心更擔心的是什麼向中國採購PWBPWB就是印刷電路板這個印刷電路板會用在非常多的地方"},{"start":136.954,"end":150.836,"text":"而這個PWB它會用在販售到其他國家的軍機上面然後把這些軍購的項目有涉及到的軍機全面都列出來了我只是基於善意"},{"start":152.353,"end":170.783,"text":"國防部到目前為止針對於美國的國務院他們已經做出了認定而且在行政上面跟他和解先賠1億美金完了以後後面是情況再追加另外1億美金這件事情啊國防部有沒有掌握"},{"start":172.992,"end":187.859,"text":"我們下去會再進一步了解一下再麻煩部長稍微了解一下順便跟美方問一下因為這個從美國人的觀點不是機密質詢我全部從他們國務院的官方網站"},{"start":189.13,"end":217.343,"text":"就可以下載到他裡面所認定違反的太陽他把這些機密的資訊包括竟然向中國採購印刷電路板在他們自己各式各樣的軍機上我看了嚇壞了希望這些東西沒有用在賣到台灣的武器上因為我沒有辦法一筆一筆去核對嘛那比較清楚的資訊可能在美方那邊這個部分可能要"},{"start":218.365,"end":233.125,"text":"除了有關於overcharge的部分錢要要回來以外針對國務院所做出來這麼嚴重對於RTX違反出口管制規定是不是會影響到台灣這個部分可能要請國防部了解一下可以嗎"},{"start":233.832,"end":235.773,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為"},{"start":254.881,"end":267.794,"text":"防彈背心我們國軍用的防彈背心竟然有不肖的商人從中國進口假的防彈纖維布這根本是為了私利置國家安全與不顧"},{"start":269.741,"end":295.389,"text":"在市場上面大家都知道防彈背心我也不曉得當初價格是怎麼定的利潤很高啦利潤高它會造成什麼樣的效果我看到一堆本業根本不是在搞防彈背心的通通都來標有那種什麼賣電鍋的公司啦電腦公司啦全部都來標我們的抗彈纖維部那他們來標他也不是自己"},{"start":296.325,"end":299.427,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為"},{"start":319.148,"end":343.419,"text":"這件事情我就問了公共工程委員會大眾電腦得標大同公司得標背後有公衛公司然後有一群也不是一群就特定的幾個人他們一下有不同的公司在那邊賺轉包的錢之前大家開始質疑的時候前部長邱國正他證實"},{"start":349.847,"end":368.297,"text":"不像廠商進口中國製交貨賺1.7億價差這個是前部長證實的事情那當然出現了這樣子的弊案啊解掉該偵辦的該偵辦該坐牢的去坐牢沒什麼好說的那但是這不像的廠商我們一定要處理嘛"},{"start":369.955,"end":389.271,"text":"兩年前有人問國防部說那為什麼這些不肖的廠商沒有停權結果國防部的回應說因為工程會調解所以沒有列政府採購公報我上個禮拜問工程會的主委工程會的主委說工程會的調解歸調解停權歸停權是兩碼子事"},{"start":391.152,"end":403.648,"text":"一個是私人糾紛另外一個牽涉到公共利益然後我上禮拜質詢完了以後你們國防部也有官員來找我了解那請問你像了解你們當初到底國防部是誰做這樣子的回應"},{"start":405.114,"end":405.795,"text":"國防部是誰做這樣的回應?"},{"start":427.693,"end":440.745,"text":"大同公司的部門當時回應說在跟調解這個講法應該是不正確的應該是說所以這是錯誤的訊息嗎就是說他是要向工程會提出申訴的時候呢依照政府採購102條吧我記得是這樣"},{"start":443.387,"end":444.547,"text":"所以現在工程會還沒有做出決定?"},{"start":470.972,"end":495.191,"text":"還沒有還沒有因為他應該是這份這個資料是8月23號向工程會提出沒有關係那我會再回去追工程會喔對那因為現在我發現的狀況是我上個禮拜問工程會工程會把皮球踢給國防部說國防部啊根本沒有申請他停權那顯然上個禮拜工程會主委在接受詢答的時候他所提供的訊息不是正確的現在我們把他釐清了啦是因為"},{"start":496.292,"end":524.141,"text":"國防部有要給他停權但他提申訴現在還卡在工程會是因為工程會的關係到現在才沒停權這樣對吧因為他823才向工程會提出申訴按照政府採購等工程會的申訴審判出來之後才給停權不好意思這個是2022年就發生的事情對但是是最近才提出那個應該是不是喔那如果2022年的時候國防部那時候有沒有提報他停權"},{"start":524.983,"end":548.12,"text":"我們是依照這個起訴書這112年的起訴書然後在113年5月13號通知大航空陳述意見然後6月27號的時候我們的審議將這個該公司要刊登政府採購公報然後他提出意義之後8月9號我們駁回他駁回他之後在8月23號向工廠會提出這個具體處理的時程是不是可以麻煩部長"},{"start":549.321,"end":566.839,"text":"你們會提供一個詳細書面的列表讓所有的委員都可以知道因為大家很關心這件事啊這種垃圾公司啊不孝廠商啊從中國進防彈纖維部啊開什麼玩笑啊致我們國軍弟兄的生命安危於不顧啊"},{"start":568.57,"end":595.287,"text":"這一定要重重懲罰嘛該停權就要停嘛如果大同公司如果大同公司在程序上面要做這樣子的拖延我們也要讓社會大眾知道嘛所以現在大同公司到底在搞什麼東西嘛除了大同跟大眾以外啊後面分包的廠商包括工位包括那些不法分子所控制的廠商有參與國防部標案的是不是應該要一併停權"},{"start":596.596,"end":596.616,"text":"部長"},{"start":622.381,"end":627.405,"text":"請你們回去跟工程會稍微商量一下我為什麼說跟工程會商量一下最惡質的就是背後這個工位嘛"},{"start":652.188,"end":672.599,"text":"其實我們搞了半天停權的對象不包括最惡質的工位讓他可以繼續胡搞瞎搞這樣對嗎?你聽得懂我的意思嗎?你如果了解整個案情的話就知道最惡質的就是背後面的廠商嘛結果最後面的廠商沒有辦法處理到這樣對嗎?這個是我的問題"},{"start":676.343,"end":696,"text":"部長沒有關係時間的關係先到這裡再麻煩部長請部內的同仁把具體的狀況了解完了以後我下一次質詢的時候再來追下面其他的問題我們來了解一下因為他現在就是說供貨的廠家跟這個分包商我們稍微把它理清楚一下好不好好謝謝"}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"12:27:21 - 12:38:58","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：邀請國防部部長報告一、「台美國防工業會議成效及合作現況與未來展望」，並備質詢。二、「針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為」，並備質詢。【機密】）","gazette":{"lineno":720,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（12時27分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["顧部長立雄：黃委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好。早上機密報告裡面有關於雷神公司哄抬軍售價格的部分，我想部長態度已經表明得很清楚，配合美國政府的進度，把臺灣該要的錢要回來，我想這個態度基本上是正確的。只不過說這個雷神公司除了哄抬價格了以外，它涉及到的，我看美國的公開資訊，這不牽涉到任何機密的問題，我比較擔心的是它還違反出口管制規定。這個是在今年8月底的時候美國國務院所做出來的一個報告，針對這個部分，請問一下國防部有沒有掌握？"],["黃司長文啓：報告委員，這個部分美方並沒有把這個資訊提供給我們。"],["黃委員國昌：這個是公開資訊啊！不用美國政府提供給你們啊！"],["黃司長文啓：報告委員，我們在軍售的部分，我們主要是以美方提供的官方文件為主要依據。"],["黃委員國昌：這個是Department of State，這是國務院官方網站，這個稱不稱為官方資訊？我絕對不會拿來路不明的媒體，寫一些來路不明的資訊上來質詢，這樣就不負責任嘛！這是美國國務院他們公開在網站上面，SEC官方文獻也出來了。","我為什麼會關心這一件事情？美國國務院說，從2017年8月到2023年9月，雷神公司因為經過好幾次的合併，現在合併完了以後，更名叫做RTX。RTX這家公司幹了什麼事情？國防物品、機密資料沒有經過授權就出口到中國去。我看了這個報告，我很擔心，更擔心的是什麼？向中國採購PWB，PWB就是印刷電路板，這個印刷電路板會用在非常多的地方，而這個PWB它會用在販售到其他國家的軍機上面，然後把這些軍購的項目，有涉及到的軍機全面都列出來了。","我只是基於善意。國防部到目前為止，針對於美國的國務院他們已經做出了認定，而且在行政上面跟它和解，先賠1億美金，完了以後，後面視情況再追加另外1億美金，這件事情國防部有沒有掌握？"],["顧部長立雄：我們下去會再進一步瞭解一下。"],["黃委員國昌：再麻煩部長稍微瞭解一下，順便跟美方問一下，因為從美國人的觀點，這個不是機密資訊，我全部從他們國務院的官方網站就可以download到它裡面所認定違反的態樣。它把這一些機敏的資訊，包括竟然向中國採購印刷電路板，在他們自己各式各樣的軍機上，我看了嚇壞了，希望這些東西沒有用在賣到臺灣的武器上，因為我沒有辦法一筆一筆去核對，比較清楚的資訊可能在美方那邊。除了有關於overcharge的部分，錢要拿回來以外，針對國務院所做出來這麼嚴重、對於RTX違反出口管制規定是不是會影響到臺灣這個部分，可能要請國防部瞭解一下，可以嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：是，我們瞭解。我想我們購買的相關軍購物品上面，如果有牽涉到我國的話，一般美國會跟我們進行照會。現在為止我們沒有接獲相關的照會，不過既然委員提及，我們會主動跟美國來進行瞭解。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝部長。下一個問題是，我們國軍用的防彈背心，竟然有不肖的商人從中國進口假的防彈纖維布，這根本是為了私利，置國家安全於不顧。我也不曉得當初防彈背心價格是怎麼訂的，在市場上面大家都知道利潤很高，利潤高會造成什麼樣的效果？我看到一堆本業根本不是在搞防彈背心的通通都來標，有那種什麼賣電鍋的公司、電腦公司全部都來標我們的抗彈纖維布。他們來標，它也不是自己生產，全部轉包給其他的廠商，他們中間賺一手就對了。","所以從國防部軍備局2017年、2018年、2019年的採購，甚至到2020年最近互億科技，結果得標的這些廠商背後都是同一群不肖的人。這件事情我就問了公共工程委員會，大眾電腦得標，大同公司得標，背後有攻衛公司，然後有一群，也不是一群，就特定的幾個人，他名下有不同的公司在那邊賺轉包的錢。之前大家開始質疑的時候，前部長邱國正證實不肖廠商進口中國製交貨賺1.7億元價差，這個是前部長證實的事情。","當然出現了這樣的弊案，檢調該偵辦的要偵辦，該坐牢的去坐牢，沒什麼好說的，但是不肖的廠商我們一定要處理嘛！兩年前有人問國防部，說為什麼這些不肖的廠商沒有停權，結果國防部的回應說，因為工程會調解，所以沒有列政府採購公報。我在上個禮拜問工程會的主委，工程會的主委說，工程會的調解歸調解，停權歸停權，是兩碼子事，一個是私人糾紛，另外一個牽涉到公共利益。我在上禮拜質詢完了以後，你們國防部也有官員來找我瞭解。那請問你一下，了解你們當初到底國防部是誰做這樣子的回應？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，就兩個部分，一個是牽扯到大眾公司，一個牽扯到大同公司。就這個部分的話，大眾公司已經被停權了……"],["黃委員國昌：那是2024年嘛！"],["顧部長立雄：對，沒有，2024年……"],["黃委員國昌：等一下！我們一個層次、一個層次來談。"],["顧部長立雄：對。"],["黃委員國昌：現在我在問的是，2022年國防部是誰做這樣的回應？"],["顧部長立雄：大同公司的部分當時回應說在調解，這個講法應該是不正確的，應該是說……"],["黃委員國昌：所以這個是錯誤的訊息嘛？"],["顧部長立雄：就是它要向工程會提出申訴的時候，依照政府採購法第一百零二條，我記得是這樣，是要等到工程會提出申訴審議判斷之後才能進行停權，所以不是講說要調解不能停權。應該正確的講法是說，大同公司提出異議之後，我們國防部駁回之後，他們向工程會提出申訴，那工程會做出申訴審議判斷之後，就可以停權，而不是……"],["黃委員國昌：所以現在工程會還沒有做出決定？"],["顧部長立雄：還沒有，這份資料是8月23號向工程會提出……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，那我會再回去追工程會哦！因為現在我發現的狀況是，我在上個禮拜問工程會，工程會把皮球踢給國防部，說國防部根本沒有申請它停權，那顯然上個禮拜工程會主委在接受詢答的時候，他所提供的訊息不是正確的。現在我們把它釐清了，是因為國防部有要給它停權，但它提申訴，現在還卡在工程會，是因為工程會的關係到現在才沒停權，這樣對吧？"],["顧部長立雄：因為它8月23號才向工程會提出申訴，按照政府採購法，要等工程會的申訴審議判斷出來之後，才可以停權。"],["黃委員國昌：等一下！不好意思！這個是2022年就發生的事情。"],["顧部長立雄：對，但是是最近才提出……應該是……"],["黃委員國昌：不是啊！如果是2022年的時候，國防部那時候有沒有提報它停權？"],["顧部長立雄：我們是依照112年的起訴書，然後在113年5月13號通知大同公司陳述意見，然後6月27號的審議將該公司要刊登政府採購公報，然後它提出異議之後，8月9號我們駁回它，駁回它之後，在8月23號向工程會提出……"],["黃委員國昌：具體處理的時程，是不是可以麻煩部長你們會後提供一個詳細書面的列表？"],["顧部長立雄：可以。"],["黃委員國昌：讓所有的委員都可以知道，因為大家很關心這件事。這種垃圾公司、不肖廠商從中國進防彈纖維布，開什麼玩笑！置我們國軍弟兄的生命安危於不顧，這一定要重重懲罰嘛！該停權就要停嘛！如果大同公司在程序上面要做這樣子的拖延，我們也要讓社會大眾知道現在大同公司到底在搞什麼東西。除了大同跟大眾以外，後面分包的廠商，包括攻衛以及那些不法份子所控制的廠商，有參與國防部標案的，是不是應該要一併停權？"],["顧部長立雄：根據政府採購法的規定，我們是只對得標的廠商來……"],["黃委員國昌：來，看一下！機關依照採購法第一百零一條第一項，對廠商的通知屬於行政罰，對象除了違反所定採購法或採購契約義務的廠商之外，還包括分包廠商，非以得標廠商為限。部長？"],["顧部長立雄：這個部分是不是請採購室來回答？"],["趙主任亞平：報告委員，攻衛不是分包廠商，它是大同和大眾後面的……"],["黃委員國昌：轉包廠商？"],["趙主任亞平：不是，不是轉包，它是供貨源，供貨的廠商，它也不是分包給它，定義不一樣，它的角色不是分包。"],["黃委員國昌：不是啦！請你們回去跟工程會稍微商量一下。我為什麼說跟工程會商量一下？最惡質的就是背後這個攻衛嘛！結果我們搞了半天，停權的對象不包括最惡質的攻衛，讓它可以繼續胡搞瞎搞，這樣對嗎？你聽得懂我的意思嗎？你如果瞭解整個案情的話，就知道最惡質的就是背後的廠商，結果最後面那個廠商沒有辦法處理到，這樣對嗎？這個是我的問題。","部長，沒有關係，因為時間的關係，先到這裡，再麻煩部長請部內的同仁把具體的狀況瞭解完了以後，我下一次質詢的時候，再來追下面其他的問題。"],["顧部長立雄：好，我們來瞭解一下。現在就是供貨的廠家跟分包商我們稍微把它釐清楚一下，好不好？"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，請國防部也列表給每一個委員。謝謝黃國昌委員，部長請回。","接下來請林俊憲委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":236,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-2","speakers":["林憶君","黃仁","沈伯洋","羅美玲","馬文君","洪申翰","徐巧芯","王定宇","林楚茵","陳永康","陳冠廷","賴士葆","林國成","黃國昌","林俊憲","鍾佳濱","鄭正鈐","洪孟楷","張啓楷","黃珊珊","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":165,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1137901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長報告：一、「台美國防工業會議成效及合作現況與未來展望」，並備質詢；二、\n「針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為」，並備質詢【機\n密】","agenda_id":"1137901_00005"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}