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12:48:03","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：邀請國防部部長報告一、「台美國防工業會議成效及合作現況與未來展望」，並備質詢。二、「針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為」，並備質詢。【機密】）","gazette":{"lineno":768,"blocks":[["林委員俊憲：（12時39分）好，謝謝，本席邀請國防部顧部長。"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：林委員好。"],["林委員俊憲：部長辛苦了。今天大家都在關心雷神的事件，我想有幾個事情也希望再請部長能夠進一步釐清。其實這個事情主要是美國2021年就在調查雷神公司，那時候調查只是要查雷神公司是否有涉及行賄卡達。從2021年查到今年2024年的大概6月、7月，就開始美國有很多媒體報導，更進一步查到了雷神有抬價的事情。","我現在舉給你看，這是我從華爾街日報抓到的，這是今年大概7月的新聞，那時候查的就是雷神公司有沒有行賄卡達，然後美國國防部審計單位再進一步去查雷神公司，才查到它有抬價的事情，這就是案外案。然後今年10月1號突然間有一個奇怪的媒體就報導雷神的抬價事件，好像就是說臺灣是個「盤仔」，美國就刻意地在這個抬價事件上，臺灣吃大虧。我想請教部長，第一個，雷神的抬價事件受害國家有哪些？"],["顧部長立雄：我們有掌握了一些國家，但是我想我們可能不適宜將這些國家一一列舉。"],["林委員俊憲：美國有受害嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：美國有。"],["林委員俊憲：好，那雷神公司是美國的公司嘛？是不是這樣？"],["顧部長立雄：不是，它是私人的。"],["林委員俊憲：我知道它是……基本上它設籍在美國嘛？"],["顧部長立雄：對，屬於美國境內的公司。"],["林委員俊憲：是美國境內、美國本土的公司嘛？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["林委員俊憲：它主要也是軍火供應給美國國防部嘛？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["林委員俊憲：好，那我請教，如果美國也受害的話，我說的是抬價哦！那表示美國的審計單位也沒有辦法在軍火購買當下知道這個價格有沒有抬價、有沒有合理哦！"],["顧部長立雄：對，所以這一點我們也是希望……因為美國現在給我們的資訊我們還沒有辦法確知，就是說……"],["林委員俊憲：如果美國也受害，我知道美國有受害，卡達也受害，臺灣也受害，至少3個國家，其實是多國受害。"],["顧部長立雄：是，多國。"],["林委員俊憲：也就是說，這麼多國家都沒有辦法在軍火購買的時候就知道這個價格合不合理了。坦白講，剛剛很多人關心我們國防部有沒有能力事先就知道這個價格到底合不合理、能不能買。其實每一筆軍火採購都不一樣，我認為如果連美國都受害，那我當然強烈懷疑，我也知道大概我們國防部也沒有辦法有能力確保這個價格是否合理，是不是這樣？"],["顧部長立雄：我這邊的立場會是我們等待美國的完整報告出來之後，我們理解……"],["林委員俊憲：你不方便答，那至少我確定，第一個，多國受害，連美國也受害。"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["林委員俊憲：第二個，發生抬價的狀況，美國現在調查的是在大概2011年到2017年嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：美國給我們的初步訊息有一些，但是我們剛剛在機密報告裡面已經報告了，所以我想就不在這邊再多做說明。"],["林委員俊憲：旁邊幕僚提醒你要回答「不確定」，實際上大概差不多這個時間。"],["顧部長立雄：沒有。"],["林委員俊憲：所以以那個時間序來講，在臺灣幾乎就是藍綠都受害。"],["顧部長立雄：現在確實時間還沒有辦法完全地……"],["林委員俊憲：那就是藍綠受害嘛！因為它也牽扯到馬政府執政的時候。也就是說，國防部發新聞稿提的那個內容農場，它所寫的是要引導成疑美論啦！引導成臺灣是個「盤仔」啦！基本上，我回到剛剛第一個問題，很多國家都受害，根本很難有能力知道。因為軍火是一種很特殊的採購，你很難知道這個價格狀況如何，每一筆都確定合理嗎？連美國都受害，這是我剛剛跟你確定的。","第二個，如果按照這個內容農場所寫的，其實跨時間點來講的話，臺灣藍綠都受害了，不要把這個事情高度政治化，我認為受害的是我們國家。因為我們國家是跟美國政府簽約，不是跟雷神簽約，所以美國政府要負責退還我們這筆錢，這個部長你也確定的？"],["顧部長立雄：對，這個是我們現在應該可以確定的事。"],["林委員俊憲：所以我跟你確定兩點，第一個是多國受害，藍綠受害。再來，我跟你確定第三點，你剛剛有提，國防部很罕見的新聞稿裡面，我看到國防部措辭非常強烈，它特別提出這是一個屬性特殊的內容農場。請問部長，這屬性特殊是什麼特殊法？你怎麼每件事都沒辦法回答我？"],["孫處長立方：報告委員，有關這個部分，我們在說明的時候，其實都是依據事實來做陳述，包含……"],["林委員俊憲：廢話，不然要說謊來陳述嗎？當然是事實啊。"],["孫處長立方：依當天的一個日子的狀況，然後包含在這個訊息出來之前，東部戰區發出的這個……"],["林委員俊憲：我問你，這個「屬性特殊」是什麼特殊法？","好，再來，部長，國防部有特別提出，但是時間點很敏感，因為剛好在中國的國慶10月1日，所以，你說那個「屬性特殊的內容農場」，那請教，所以這個內容農場是境外的，是嗎？"],["孫處長立方：並不能說它是一個完全的境外的。"],["林委員俊憲：不然是怎麼樣？臺灣也牽扯在內？"],["孫處長立方：它整個發布的訊息還是以國內訊息為主。"],["林委員俊憲：我看這個內容農場，基本上可能跟臺灣以前一位政治人物璩美鳳有相當的關係。好，那你說這個屬性特殊的農場，那我再請教部長，你覺得這個內容農場是否有中國介入？"],["孫處長立方：我現在沒有辦法給你一個肯定的答案，但是我們只是認為……"],["林委員俊憲：我問你到現在，沒有一個可以肯定的。部長，你當過國安局局長。"],["顧部長立雄：國安會。"],["林委員俊憲：你是一個非常有特殊經歷的國防部長，這個內容農場是不是中國有介入裡面？"],["顧部長立雄：我在立法院答詢，我想……"],["林委員俊憲：好，那我再請教部長，我可不可以高度懷疑這個是中國介入的一個內容農場？"],["顧部長立雄：委員的意見我表示尊重，我們沒有辦法置喙。"],["林委員俊憲：如果不是，你就會否認，那你這樣講，我就認為是啦。"],["顧部長立雄：我只是說我尊重委員的看法。"],["林委員俊憲：如果不是中國介入，你就會否定，通常是這樣，官員都這樣，只要是不對的，他一定講得很百分之百明確，你說很為難講的話，那我大概解讀就是是啦，就是中國有介入這個內容農場。因為這符合他們這幾年來高度操作的疑美論，破壞臺灣跟美國的關係，說臺灣是「盤仔」，美國刻意地要用高價抬價，來賣我們一些武器。但是我剛剛前面提兩點，第一個就是這是多國受害，第二個是如果從時間橫跨的角度來看的話，就是藍綠都受害，第三，我可以高度懷疑這是中國介入的內容農場所發出來的一個刻意抹黑的訊息。"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，因為我們是認為他刻意地只強調似乎是臺灣單一……但事實上是美國政府也一起有購買。"],["林委員俊憲：就是我剛剛講的嘛，是多國受害。"],["顧部長立雄：所以美國政府本身也包括在裡面的話，那就不是說美國政府把我們當「盤仔」，或者是當凱子，因為如果美國政府本身也受害，那……"],["林委員俊憲：我的邏輯就是這樣。美國政府都沒有辦法事先知道這個價格是被哄抬的，那更何況臺灣，更何況其他國家。"],["顧部長立雄：所以不能講美國政府把我們當凱子。"],["林委員俊憲：沒有錯，我們就是要破除這種刻意的誤解和抹黑嘛，對不對？"],["顧部長立雄：好，謝謝。"],["林委員俊憲：好，謝謝部長今天的回答。好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林俊憲委員。部長請回。","接下來，我們請鍾佳濱委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":236,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-2","speakers":["林憶君","黃仁","沈伯洋","羅美玲","馬文君","洪申翰","徐巧芯","王定宇","林楚茵","陳永康","陳冠廷","賴士葆","林國成","黃國昌","林俊憲","鍾佳濱","鄭正鈐","洪孟楷","張啓楷","黃珊珊","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":165,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1137901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長報告：一、「台美國防工業會議成效及合作現況與未來展望」，並備質詢；二、\n「針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為」，並備質詢【機\n密】","agenda_id":"1137901_00005"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}