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這個不好這樣寫的嘛對 那個是我們去協調那當然這裡面牽涉到電信業就是很好 電信業問題 下來 我們看一下ISP沒有加入DNS RPZ造成破口所以非三大電信業者呢他如果是提供網率追求服務的ISP呢他有的已經加入DNS RPZ了有加入採訪中心了 這個OK他沒有加入的機制怎麼辦這些沒有加入怎麼辦 我們看下一頁"},{"start":89.861,"end":101.792,"text":"我有發文去問過你們要求創意私房停止解析請衛務部函請通傳會請主管網域的機關的停止他這樣解析論壇照辦照辦了沒NCC照辦了沒"},{"start":104.557,"end":121.787,"text":"報言那個我們現在所有的有線電視業者有的都間接的透過電信業者來加入間接的透過就二類以前的二類嘛你們說是不是要你們在我的記者會上說將來會長期一個電信管理法的工作小組成立了沒有有成立了好我們現在開始問三個問題第一進入如何"},{"start":124.948,"end":130.01,"text":"目前在電信法規當中應該辦理電信業登記的ISPR如何管理?你們的草案當中怎麼管理?"},{"start":144.437,"end":167.269,"text":"如果他們沒有配合聽證解析,怎麼辦?他們是要來登記登記之後可被處罰?有,後面有罰則很好,來我們現在看齁其實呢,不只是這個部長其實現在網路詐騙啊,他們怎麼來的齁你看,我現在讓你看一下齁當你看到一個網路上,你要買一個什麼?購買鑽石,遊戲的鑽石他會停一個,不是三秒鐘,停一個空白"},{"start":168.129,"end":192.066,"text":"他就是在轉什麼轉到其他的因為呢這個空白頁面是全球的WHOIS查詢這個123的空白頁面就是沒有納管的ISP啦什麼意思我今天要買遊戲點數我以為我用信用卡我用這個電子支付我付給了對方這中間的過程最後拿到錢的不是你看到的那一個人好再往下下一頁"},{"start":194.152,"end":219.76,"text":"金流是透過衛納管的ISP的網頁移轉而且你購買了油氣點數之後油氣點數的移轉也不是透過ISP的頁面移轉是透過衛納管的所以衛納管的ISP它扮演了我們金流查詢它的足跡的斷點今天自由時報的頭版有一個什麼台灣高鐵的優惠點數被拿來怎樣倒賣"},{"start":220.851,"end":249.667,"text":"你知道這點數怎麼賣嗎?點數可以交易耶怎麼去交易怎麼去查?如果他這個交易的過程當中用ISP啊你就根本查不到所以接下來結論違法的金流再往上跳一下違法的金流他用遊戲點數透過未納管的ISP移轉我是犯罪集團我騙了一個人頭的受害者他去網路上要跟我交易遊戲點數透過未納管的這個ISP我就可以把點數拿到我手上"},{"start":250.458,"end":262.799,"text":"透過威納館的ISP不但可以洗錢也可以防止事後你追蹤我的交易的誤進有沒有人現場知道這個問題的嚴重性?牛市長是不是這樣子?"},{"start":263.735,"end":288.19,"text":"委員確實那我非常感謝委員提案針對ISP的業者去做處理因為這確實是一件非常嚴重的事情那也謝謝通常會我們會跟通常會一起來合作努力把ISP的部分能夠做處理那我相信如果委員能夠針對這部分委員已經提案針對這部分如果能夠落管的話我相信對網絡詐騙還有兒少的部分都會有非常大的幫助"},{"start":288.65,"end":308.432,"text":"黃部長請你要肯一下牛司長我們在這個案子當中我們多次請教他也聯絡了我們的這個通傳會也了解目前法規上的不足現在需要的不是問題在哪裡也不是問題如何解決是要趕快解決、趕快修法如何阻斷詐騙的再途金流以及偵查洗錢或違法金流的交易"},{"start":309.113,"end":328.368,"text":"第二,具有點數交易,包括使用者跟使用者之間,他們所通過的網路平台,要有沒有用洗錢防治法來納管,部長了解嗎?現在有一個洗錢防治法,所以只要可以用來洗錢,或來用點數讓你無法追蹤的交易的,都要納管,部長支持嗎?支持,這是很好的建議。好,那結論?"},{"start":329.329,"end":341.151,"text":"所以請敬訴納管為在電信管理法當中規範應辦理電信事業登記的網際網路接取服務提供者就ISP沒有問題嗎因為剛剛NC主委已經說了他們已經修法了"},{"start":343.231,"end":367.824,"text":"第二,請評估將具使用者與使用者之間的點數交易的網路平台以洗錢防治法納管的可行性部長,這一點就是你們的事情了因為目前電子支付的金流是由你們來主張的未來到我們的洗錢防治法、到我們的打詐釋法當中這個部分都是由書發部來負責的請一個月內提出書面報告,可以嗎?好,謝謝"}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"13:01:47 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RPZ……"],["鍾委員佳濱：間接地透過，就是以前的二類嘛？"],["翁代理主任委員柏宗：對！"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們在我的記者會上說，將來會成立一個電信管理法的工作小組，成立了沒有？"],["翁代理主任委員柏宗：有成立了，因為我在……"],["鍾委員佳濱：現在開始問三個問題，第一，進度如何？"],["翁代理主任委員柏宗：其實這個部分我們已經有討論了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：討論了，進度怎麼樣？有沒有一個對案，我們立法院要來修法？"],["翁代理主任委員柏宗：有，我們有對案。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有對案喔！好，我會跟你們要。","目前在電信法規當中應該辦理電信業登記的IASP，如何管理？你們的草案當中怎麼管理？如果他們沒有配合停止解析，怎麼罰？"],["翁代理主任委員柏宗：他們是要來登記……"],["鍾委員佳濱：登記之後，可不可以處罰？"],["翁代理主任委員柏宗：有，後面有罰則。"],["鍾委員佳濱：後面有罰則，很好！其實不只是這個，部長，現在網路詐騙他們怎麼來的？我現在讓你看一下，當你看到一個網路上，你要買購買遊戲的鑽石，它會停一個不是三秒鐘，而是停一個空白頁面，就是在轉什麼？轉到其他的頁面，因為這個空白頁面是全球WHOIS查詢，這個1、2、3的空白頁面就是沒有納管到IASP，什麼意思？我今天要買遊戲點數，我以為用信用卡、用電子支付付給了對方，這中間的過程，最後拿到錢的不是你看到的那一個人。金流是透過未納管的IASP網頁移轉，而且當你購買了遊戲點數之後，遊戲點數的移轉也不是透過IASP的頁面移轉，而是透過未納管的，所以未納管的IASP扮演了我們金流查詢他足跡的斷點。","今天自由時報的頭版有一個臺灣高鐵的優惠點數被拿來怎樣？盜賣！你知道這個點數怎麼賣嗎？點數可以交易，怎麼去交易、怎麼去查？如果這個交易的過程當中用IASP，就根本查不到。所以接下來的結論是：違法金流用遊戲點數透過未納管的IASP移轉。我是犯罪集團，我騙了一個人頭的受害者，他去網路上要跟我交易遊戲點數，透過未納管的IASP，我就可以把點數拿到我手上。透過未納管的IASP不但可以洗錢，也可以防止事後你追蹤我的交易路徑。現場有沒有人知道這個問題的嚴重性？牛司長，是不是這樣子？"],["牛司長信仁：是！報告委員，確實。我非常感謝委員提案，針對IASP的業者去做處理，因為這確實是一件非常嚴重的事情，也謝謝通傳會，我們會跟通傳會一起合作努力把IASP的部分能夠做處理。對於這部分委員已經提案，針對這部分如果能夠納管的話，我相信對網路詐騙還有兒少的部分都會有非常大的幫助。"],["鍾委員佳濱：黃部長，你要肯定一下牛司長，我們在這個案子當中多次請教他，也聯絡了通傳會，瞭解目前法規上的不足，現在需要的不是問題在哪裡，也不是問題如何解決，而是要趕快解決、趕快修法，如何阻斷詐騙在途金流以及偵查洗錢或違法金流交易。第二個，具有點數交易，包括使用者跟使用者之間他們所通過的網路平臺，有沒有用洗錢防制法來納管，部長瞭解嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：瞭解。"],["鍾委員佳濱：現在有一個洗錢防制法。"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以只要可以用來洗錢或用點數來讓你無法追蹤交易的都要納管，部長支持嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：支持啊！這是很好的建議。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，所以結論是請儘速納管未在電信管理法當中規範應辦理電信事業登記的網際網路接取服務提供者（即IASP），沒有問題嘛！因為剛剛NCC主委已經說了，他們已經修法了，對案準備好了。第二，請評估將具使用者與使用者之間點數交易的網路平臺以洗錢防制法納管的可行性，部長，這一點就是你們的事情了，因為目前電子支付的金流是由你們來主張的，未來到我們的洗錢防制法、到我們的打詐四法當中，這個部分都是由數發部來負責的，請一個月內提出書面報告，可以嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鍾委員。接下來有請黃國昌委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":88,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-4","speakers":["魯明哲","林國成","許智傑","林俊憲","林沛祥","李昆澤","何欣純","陳素月","游顥","黃健豪","蔡其昌","魯明哲","邱若華","廖先翔","陳雪生","徐富癸","洪孟楷","李坤城","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","黃國昌","羅智強","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","邱志偉","郭國文","林月琴","陳冠廷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1138001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請數位發展部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心、法務部、\n內政部警政署、內政部警政署刑事警察局、金融監督管理委員會就「我國打詐成效與防制」進行\n專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138001_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}