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},{"start":571.158,"end":573.679,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為。"},{"start":599.65,"end":606.253,"text":"另外我們做一個比較簡單的ending好不好這是網路上很多人在提的現在既然要響應全社會這個防衛韌性部長能不能呼籲現在清德總統的兒子現在還在美國對不對"},{"start":629.605,"end":634.267,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為。"},{"start":647.392,"end":665.637,"text":"那就要看他們那個有沒有能夠被招入這個民防系統的行列裡面去嗎?應該大部分都有對不對?全國現在年輕人應該幾乎都在這40萬民力裡面吧?沒有?沒有,不只不只,如果你要講全國那不只,這不只,不只40萬。民眾會這樣要求,部長你應該知道民眾為什麼會提這兩個點吧?"},{"start":672.018,"end":695.268,"text":"總統是團結的象徵嘛 對不對國家的領導人嘛所以他希望他家人可以參與我們國家的這個防衛嘛那會提到你也是一樣啊提到你的家人最後他們有提那個比較他們說現在黑熊部隊啊是不是應該去投入這個40萬的這個民力有特別至少你看這幾天開始有那個颱風對不對他們有可能加入我們這個整個防災嗎先斷裂先整合嗎"},{"start":699.679,"end":718.094,"text":"黑熊部隊主要在宣導一些觀念跟相關的作為那事實上要投入救災這個部分的話應該還是利用我們既有的建制的民力這當然也就包括民防的力量也包括我們的疫警疫消等等的好不好沈博洋是說他三年要訓練三百萬人是不是他們應該利用這個機會加入這四十萬的這個民力"},{"start":724.993,"end":753.105,"text":"我想我沒有辦法代替省委員來回答好不好好啦部長剛剛一開始提的就是人民的納稅錢我們的國防事實上如果真的達到美國一直叫我們交那麼高的這個保護費的話到底對台灣我們至少我們在要求說我們願意發錢的同時拜託一下我們的武器一定要是合適我們用的而且一定是要我們要的而且一定要提一個點最後做一個Ending我們如果說買貴的東西或者在牽連上出了問題我們準備要去救責嗎"},{"start":755.301,"end":768.142,"text":"我們會跟美國政府直接來要求,要對我們負完全的責任。希望我們每一分的納稅錢都用在刀口上,好不好?"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-07T13:28:21.449000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:28:21.449000+08:00","text":"請部長。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-07T13:28:21.449000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:28:29.477333+08:00","text":"請顧部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-07T13:28:29.477333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:28:37.505667+08:00","text":"張委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-07T13:28:37.505667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:28:45.534000+08:00","text":"部長，川普要我們交保護費，一下獅子大開口，說要我們的國防預算飆漲到GDP的10%，你怎麼看這個事情？","quality":0.047},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-07T13:28:45.534000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:29:00.062000+08:00","text":"我只能夠說我們對於國防的預算一直在逐年攀高，所以每一年都是歷史新高，今年也是歷史新高，我們會根據財政裕度，穩健地來增長我們的……","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-07T13:29:00.402000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:29:11.108000+08:00","text":"部長，我會特別請教你這個問題是因為你以前是國安會秘書長，你跟美國常打交道，你對他們很了解，我們的國防支出到底差不多要定多少是比較合理的？","quality":0.746},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-07T13:29:12.991000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:29:14.432000+08:00","text":"明年度算是最多的，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-07T13:29:14.432000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:29:25.161000+08:00","text":"包括特別預算有六千四百多億，占我們GDP是2.45%而已，如果像川普講的，要獅子大開口，10%，做得到嗎？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-07T13:29:27.826000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:29:52.352000+08:00","text":"我想我只能夠說我們現在差不多就在2.45%到2.5%左右，因為我們的GDP不斷攀高，所以我們也一直在增長我們的國防預算，當然如果相對比起來的話，民主國家一般在國防的公務預算要達到10%，難度確實是相當地高。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-07T13:29:52.352000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:29:55.266000+08:00","text":"集權國家也沒那麼高嘛，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-07T13:29:55.266000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:30:24.773000+08:00","text":"其實我們臺灣預算最高的時候是民國38年，那時候曾經占中央政府總預算的84%，這已經是最高的，那時候是兩岸戰爭狀態；到蔣中正先生過世交給蔣經國的時候，國防預算已經降到中央政府總預算的六成了，蔣經國時期大家都知道經濟預算就開始大幅上升嘛；到李登輝的時候變成是社福預算。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-07T13:30:25.293000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:30:39.075000+08:00","text":"如果現在要像川普講的這樣，我們就回到戰爭的狀態，我們的社福預算、經濟發展預算就會受到高度的擠壓，所以本席認為期期不可、10%是不可能的！","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-07T13:30:39.716000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:30:46.537000+08:00","text":"美國那邊又一直在提啊，很多智庫、美國高官說至少要有5%，我們有可能往5%走嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-07T13:30:46.537000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:31:07.084000+08:00","text":"5%的話我算了一下，112年我們的GDP是23兆5,450億，10%就是2兆3,545億，而我們去年的總決算是2兆6,284億，如果真的要90%的話，這個預算太高了，對我們來講是負擔不了的！","quality":0.781},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-07T13:31:07.444000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:31:15.908000+08:00","text":"今天部長你能不能給我一個比較明確的答案，以你對美國的了解，包括你當過國安會秘書長，我們大概應該抓GDP的百分之多少是最合適的、美國也比較可能接受？","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-07T13:31:17.329000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:31:37.063000+08:00","text":"我們應該會依照現在的財政裕度，我相信我們的國防預算一定會維持一定的成長，但是我們現在沒有辦法設定要占GDP的多少，今年已經占2.45%了，我們當然希望能夠維持。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-07T13:31:37.263000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:31:42.446000+08:00","text":"具體來問，陳水扁總統提過GDP的3%一直都達不到，你認為有可能往上走到3%嗎？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-07T13:31:44.015000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:31:54.438000+08:00","text":"因為我們的經濟表現滿不錯的，所以GDP的成長也一直往上拉高，GDP的成長一直往上拉高……","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-07T13:31:54.518000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:32:00.199000+08:00","text":"部長，GDP往上拉高的那個錢還是應該去做社會福利跟經濟建設會比較好。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-07T13:32:00.379000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:32:03.060000+08:00","text":"我只能說我們的國防預算這幾年來一直在穩健的成長。","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-07T13:32:03.060000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:32:04.080000+08:00","text":"穩定地成長。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-07T13:32:04.080000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:32:10.762000+08:00","text":"當然我們要有自衛的能力，自己防衛自己，不過我不認同一下子爬太高。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-07T13:32:10.762000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:32:11.762000+08:00","text":"另外，不是只有量的問題，質的問題也很重要，剛剛很多委員不分朝野都在問雷神產品的問題，現在不是只有美國通知我們，像我們的潛艦也有買到雷神的產品，是不是？","quality":0.059},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-07T13:32:11.762000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:32:12.762000+08:00","text":"這個品質有辦法保證嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-07T13:32:12.762000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:32:13.762000+08:00","text":"價格有辦法保證嗎？","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-07T13:32:13.762000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:32:14.762000+08:00","text":"關於潛艦這個部分。","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-07T13:32:14.762000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:32:15.762000+08:00","text":"關於潛艦這個部分，我想海軍要不要先回答一下有關這個……","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-07T13:32:15.762000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:32:16.762000+08:00","text":"海軍部分找時間給我書面，因為時間很有限。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-07T13:32:12.522000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:32:40.564000+08:00","text":"我繼續問另外一個，美國去年給我們一些彈藥，結果發現有發霉的防彈背心，我看到裡面一筆最特別的是270萬發的彈藥，這是1983年、40年前的彈藥，這筆270萬發彈藥進來之後我們有用嗎？","quality":0.535},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-07T13:32:40.564000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:32:48.830333+08:00","text":"還是怎麼處理？","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-07T13:32:48.830333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:32:57.096667+08:00","text":"檢整之後可以用，因為我們……","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-07T13:32:57.096667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:33:05.363000+08:00","text":"還可以用喔？可以。40年前！","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-07T13:33:05.363000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:33:13.629333+08:00","text":"這不只老爺級的，是化石級的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-07T13:33:13.629333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:33:21.895667+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，軍備局可以跟您做一個充分的說明，關於這種非精準武器的彈藥，尤其是彈藥本身，我們自己國家本身都有比它年限還長的。","quality":0.036},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-07T13:33:21.895667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:33:30.162000+08:00","text":"所以勉強整理以後還可以用就對了？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林局長文祥","start":"2024-10-07T13:33:30.162000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:33:40.665000+08:00","text":"委員好，軍備局局長報告，關於剛剛我們部長所說明的，我們現在國內的批號彈藥確實都有比剛剛PDA進來的還老，而且我們的批號彈藥是沒有年限的。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-07T13:33:40.665000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:33:46.020875+08:00","text":"它要經過檢整之後，看它……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林局長文祥","start":"2024-10-07T13:33:46.020875+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:33:51.376750+08:00","text":"檢整之後，對，這是沒有年限的。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-07T13:33:51.376750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:33:56.732625+08:00","text":"不過連AIT都講了，他們好像在清不要的東西！","quality":0.1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-07T13:33:56.732625+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:34:02.088500+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，那一次的PDA總值換算成新臺幣是110億臺幣，在給我們的彈藥當中那個屬於一小部分，是30年，事實上也有短的，應該有……","quality":0.038},{"speaker":"陳次長道輝","start":"2024-10-07T13:34:02.088500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:34:07.444375+08:00","text":"10年到20年之內的有47%。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-07T13:34:07.444375+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:34:12.800250+08:00","text":"所以有一部分可以用？","quality":0.222},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-07T13:34:12.800250+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:34:18.156125+08:00","text":"都可以用、全部都可以用！","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-07T13:34:18.156125+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:34:23.512000+08:00","text":"全部都可以用？","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-07T13:34:23.512000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:34:39.436000+08:00","text":"第一次的PDA雙方在運送的過程當中沒有好的檢整，所以我們現在也跟美方溝通要求第二次的PDA──現在拜登總統也剛宣布，所以一定會共同地好好檢視。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-07T13:34:39.436000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:34:45.410400+08:00","text":"彈藥跟防彈背心這兩部分經過檢整之後都是堪用的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-07T13:34:45.410400+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:34:51.384800+08:00","text":"以後請他們如果要送或買都要更好的，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-07T13:34:51.384800+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:34:57.359200+08:00","text":"品質要顧一下啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-07T13:34:57.359200+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:35:03.333600+08:00","text":"因為他也是在協助我們提升後備戰力，這部分我們相關的預算編列還來不及，那美國無償軍援我們來PDA或FMF。","quality":0.061},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-07T13:35:03.333600+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:35:09.308000+08:00","text":"如果是無償的我們勉強用啦，如果買的話一定要精進，好不好？","quality":0.08},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-07T13:35:09.308000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:35:12.129000+08:00","text":"無償的部分也是雙方要共同進行檢視。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-07T13:35:13.429000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:35:14.969000+08:00","text":"要買合用的、更好的。是。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-07T13:35:15.409000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:35:30.833000+08:00","text":"另外一點時間我請教一下，賴清德總統26號有開全社會防衛韌性委員會，有關培養40萬可恃民力這部分，我問你一下，總統開口要培養這40萬的民力，你今年的預算要編在哪裡？","quality":0.855},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-07T13:35:31.593000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:35:31.793000+08:00","text":"你要怎麼訓練？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-07T13:35:31.793000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:35:31.873000+08:00","text":"裝備在哪裡？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-07T13:35:33.675000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:35:37.756000+08:00","text":"這個不是國防部的部分，這個是內政部，不是民兵、是民力！","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-07T13:35:38.577000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:35:45.138000+08:00","text":"這個部分本來就包含義警、義消跟民防組織，民防法也有相關的規定。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-07T13:35:45.939000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:35:55.141000+08:00","text":"民防組織的部分會引進替代役來成為民防組織的新血，目的當然就是在有重大災害的時候或者是有任何緊急狀況的時候可以支持政府持續運作、維持社會的基本運作。","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-07T13:35:55.141000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:36:11.300000+08:00","text":"部長，如果是內政部管的救災那一塊，那不用開這個會呀，總統不用開口說要40萬。","quality":0.031},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-07T13:36:11.300000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:36:27.459000+08:00","text":"因為現在以整個全社會防衛韌性來看的話，如果有任何事情發生的時候，關於整個民間的韌性，包括醫療、電、能源、通訊、數位等等都是整體韌性的一塊。","quality":0.049},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-07T13:36:27.459000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:36:34.384000+08:00","text":"全民要動員啦，現在只是……部長，我跟你講幾個概念，第一個，如果這麼單純、本來是內政部在做的，你開這個會就沒意思了，總統交代這個事情幹嘛？","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-07T13:36:44.031000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:36:45.192000+08:00","text":"他應該有其他要精進的吧！","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-07T13:36:45.312000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:36:47.614000+08:00","text":"例如國防部要負責任哪一部分，沒有嗎？","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-07T13:36:47.614000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:37:04.605000+08:00","text":"大家都只注意到民力的部分，事實上這是整個跨部會，我剛剛講的醫療韌性涉及衛福部，戰略物資韌性涉及到經濟部、農業部，另外通訊韌性包括數發部，然後還包括相關的防空避難室或者是收容救濟站，收容救濟站也涉及到衛福部，這是整個跨部會的。","quality":0.505},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-07T13:37:04.605000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:37:11.518182+08:00","text":"那大家一直執著於民力的那個部分，當然它是整個跨部會來形成全社會的韌性，韌性如果能夠加強，我想我們就可以預防任何的狀況。","quality":0.055},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-07T13:37:11.518182+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:37:18.431364+08:00","text":"部長，要跟全民多溝通嘛，我給你看一個民調，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-07T13:37:18.431364+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:37:25.344545+08:00","text":"這個民調是Yahoo針對40萬民力做了一個調查，不贊成該政策高達六成，進一步去問他要不要參加，不參加支援軍事行動的超過七成，那你怎麼去跟民眾溝通？","quality":0.03},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-07T13:37:25.344545+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:37:32.257727+08:00","text":"大家會誤以為這是民兵，事實上他不是民兵嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-07T13:37:32.257727+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:37:39.170909+08:00","text":"他是一個……","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-07T13:37:39.170909+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:37:46.084091+08:00","text":"確切跟全國民眾講他不是民兵，是回到內政部所謂的救災而已，對不對？","quality":0.069},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-07T13:37:46.084091+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:37:52.997273+08:00","text":"不只救災，如果任何緊急狀況發生的時候……","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-07T13:37:52.997273+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:37:59.910455+08:00","text":"那就上戰場啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-07T13:37:59.910455+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:38:06.823636+08:00","text":"沒有、沒有要上戰場！","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-07T13:38:06.823636+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:38:13.736818+08:00","text":"但是他要有一些相關的……比如說社區，現在臺灣幅員這麼小，受到攻擊的時候很多社區也要自救、互救等等，然後這些民力都要在社區進行一些防護的自救動作嘛，這個不是單純把他送上戰場的概念。","quality":0.049},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-07T13:38:13.736818+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:38:20.650000+08:00","text":"這要溝通。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-07T13:38:20.650000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:38:25.573000+08:00","text":"另外，我們做一個比較簡單的ending，這是網路上很多人在提的，現在既然要響應全社會防衛韌性，部長能不能呼籲？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-07T13:38:25.573000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:38:27.253000+08:00","text":"現在賴清德總統的兒子還在美國，對不對？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-07T13:38:27.253000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:38:35.480800+08:00","text":"我必須……","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-07T13:38:35.480800+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:38:43.708600+08:00","text":"他是不是要回來參加這個40萬民力？","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-07T13:38:43.708600+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:38:51.936400+08:00","text":"我並不清楚。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-07T13:38:51.936400+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:39:00.164200+08:00","text":"第二個你一定清楚啦，您的兩個孩子現在都在臺灣，對不對？是。","quality":0.12},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-07T13:39:00.164200+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:39:08.392000+08:00","text":"如果照這個40萬民力，他們會參加這個訓練嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-07T13:39:08.392000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:39:15.354000+08:00","text":"那就要看他們有沒有被招入民防系統的行列裡面。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-07T13:39:16.834000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:39:17.734000+08:00","text":"應該大部分都有，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-07T13:39:17.734000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:39:21.375000+08:00","text":"現在全國年輕人應該幾乎都在這40萬民力裡面嘛，沒有？","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-07T13:39:22.616000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:39:24.296000+08:00","text":"不只，如果你要講全國那不只，這不只……","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-07T13:39:24.296000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:39:25.296000+08:00","text":"所以要再看看就對了？","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-07T13:39:24.476000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:39:25.176000+08:00","text":"不只40萬。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-07T13:39:25.176000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:39:26.617000+08:00","text":"民眾會這樣要求，部長，你應該知道民眾為什麼會提這兩個點嘛？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-07T13:39:33.018000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:39:35.079000+08:00","text":"總統是團結的象徵嘛，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-07T13:39:35.079000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:39:42.562000+08:00","text":"國家的領導人嘛，所以希望他家人可以參與我們國家的防衛嘛，那會提到你、提到你的家人也是一樣啊！","quality":0.881},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-07T13:39:43.222000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:39:49.105000+08:00","text":"最後，他們有提了一個比較……他們說現在黑熊部隊是不是應該去投入這個40萬的民力？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-07T13:39:50.585000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:39:53.006000+08:00","text":"你看這幾天開始有颱風，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-07T13:39:53.006000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:39:55.107000+08:00","text":"他們有可能加入我們整個防災嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-07T13:39:55.107000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:40:00.679000+08:00","text":"先鍛鍊、先整合嘛，內政部有可能去跟黑熊部隊那邊做一個聯絡嗎？","quality":0.185},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-07T13:40:00.679000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:40:15.371000+08:00","text":"我想黑熊部隊主要在宣導一些觀念跟相關的作為，事實上要投入救災這個部分，應該還是利用我們既有建制的民力，這當然也就包括民防的力量，也包括我們義警、義消等等的。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-07T13:40:16.792000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:40:18.234000+08:00","text":"沈伯洋是說他3年要訓練300萬人，難道不是嗎？","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-07T13:40:18.374000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:40:19.074000+08:00","text":"他們應該利用這個機會加入這40萬的民力啊！","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-07T13:40:25.993000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:40:28.614000+08:00","text":"我想我沒有辦法代替沈委員來回答，好不好？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-07T13:40:28.914000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:40:46.982000+08:00","text":"好啦，部長，剛剛一開始提的就是人民的納稅錢、我們的國防，事實上如果真的美國一直叫我們交那麼高的保護費的話，到底對臺灣……至少我們在要求，我們願意花錢的同時，拜託一下，我們的武器一定要是合適我們用的，而且一定要是我們要的。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-07T13:40:47.542000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:40:54.105000+08:00","text":"而且我另外提一個點，最後做一個ending，我們如果買貴了東西或者在簽約上出了問題，我們準備要去究責嗎？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-07T13:40:56.301000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:41:04.214000+08:00","text":"我們會跟美國政府直接來要求，要對我們負完全的責任，謝謝。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"張委員啓楷","start":"2024-10-07T13:41:06.558000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:41:09.122000+08:00","text":"謝謝部長，希望我們每一分的納稅錢都用在刀口上，好不好？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-07T13:41:09.622000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:41:11.050571+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-07T13:41:11.350571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:41:14.779143+08:00","text":"謝謝張啓楷委員，顧部長請回。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-07T13:41:15.079143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:41:19.364857+08:00","text":"接下來我們請黃珊珊委員上臺質詢。","quality":0}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"13:28:21 - 13:41:10","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：邀請國防部部長報告一、「台美國防工業會議成效及合作現況與未來展望」，並備質詢。二、「針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為」，並備質詢。【機密】）","gazette":{"lineno":975,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（13時28分）請部長。"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：張委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，川普要我們交保護費，一下獅子大開口，說要我們的國防預算飆漲到GDP的10%，你怎麼看這個事情？"],["顧部長立雄：我只能夠說我們對於國防的預算一直在逐年攀高，所以每一年都是歷史新高，今年也是歷史新高，我們會根據財政裕度，穩健地來增長我們的……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我會特別請教你這個問題是因為你以前是國安會秘書長，你跟美國常打交道，你對他們很了解，我們的國防支出到底差不多要定多少是比較合理的？明年度算是最多的，對不對？包括特別預算有六千四百多億，占我們GDP是2.45%而已，如果像川普講的，要獅子大開口，10%，做得到嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我想我只能夠說我們現在差不多就在2.45%到2.5%左右，因為我們的GDP不斷攀高，所以我們也一直在增長我們的國防預算，當然如果相對比起來的話，民主國家一般在國防的公務預算要達到10%，難度確實是相當地高。"],["張委員啓楷：集權國家也沒那麼高嘛，對不對？其實我們臺灣預算最高的時候是民國38年，那時候曾經占中央政府總預算的84%，這已經是最高的，那時候是兩岸戰爭狀態；到蔣中正先生過世交給蔣經國的時候，國防預算已經降到中央政府總預算的六成了，蔣經國時期大家都知道經濟預算就開始大幅上升嘛；到李登輝的時候變成是社福預算。","如果現在要像川普講的這樣，我們就回到戰爭的狀態，我們的社福預算、經濟發展預算就會受到高度的擠壓，所以本席認為期期不可、10%是不可能的！美國那邊又一直在提啊，很多智庫、美國高官說至少要有5%，我們有可能往5%走嗎？5%的話我算了一下，112年我們的GDP是23兆5,450億，10%就是2兆3,545億，而我們去年的總決算是2兆6,284億，如果真的要90%的話，這個預算太高了，對我們來講是負擔不了的！今天部長你能不能給我一個比較明確的答案，以你對美國的了解，包括你當過國安會秘書長，我們大概應該抓GDP的百分之多少是最合適的、美國也比較可能接受？"],["顧部長立雄：我們應該會依照現在的財政裕度，我相信我們的國防預算一定會維持一定的成長，但是我們現在沒有辦法設定要占GDP的多少，今年已經占2.45%了，我們當然希望能夠維持。"],["張委員啓楷：具體來問，陳水扁總統提過GDP的3%一直都達不到，你認為有可能往上走到3%嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：因為我們的經濟表現滿不錯的，所以GDP的成長也一直往上拉高，GDP的成長一直往上拉高……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，GDP往上拉高的那個錢還是應該去做社會福利跟經濟建設會比較好。"],["顧部長立雄：我只能說我們的國防預算這幾年來一直在穩健的成長。"],["張委員啓楷：穩定地成長。當然我們要有自衛的能力，自己防衛自己，不過我不認同一下子爬太高。","另外，不是只有量的問題，質的問題也很重要，剛剛很多委員不分朝野都在問雷神產品的問題，現在不是只有美國通知我們，像我們的潛艦也有買到雷神的產品，是不是？這個品質有辦法保證嗎？價格有辦法保證嗎？關於潛艦這個部分。"],["顧部長立雄：關於潛艦這個部分，我想海軍要不要先回答一下有關這個……"],["張委員啓楷：海軍部分找時間給我書面，因為時間很有限。我繼續問另外一個，美國去年給我們一些彈藥，結果發現有發霉的防彈背心，我看到裡面一筆最特別的是270萬發的彈藥，這是1983年、40年前的彈藥，這筆270萬發彈藥進來之後我們有用嗎？還是怎麼處理？"],["顧部長立雄：檢整之後可以用，因為我們……"],["張委員啓楷：還可以用喔？"],["顧部長立雄：可以。"],["張委員啓楷：40年前！這不只老爺級的，是化石級的……"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，軍備局可以跟您做一個充分的說明，關於這種非精準武器的彈藥，尤其是彈藥本身，我們自己國家本身都有比它年限還長的。"],["張委員啓楷：所以勉強整理以後還可以用就對了？"],["林局長文祥：委員好，軍備局局長報告，關於剛剛我們部長所說明的，我們現在國內的批號彈藥確實都有比剛剛PDA進來的還老，而且我們的批號彈藥是沒有年限的。"],["顧部長立雄：它要經過檢整之後，看它……"],["林局長文祥：檢整之後，對，這是沒有年限的。"],["張委員啓楷：不過連AIT都講了，他們好像在清不要的東西！"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，那一次的PDA總值換算成新臺幣是110億臺幣，在給我們的彈藥當中那個屬於一小部分，是30年，事實上也有短的，應該有……"],["陳次長道輝：10年到20年之內的有47%。"],["張委員啓楷：所以有一部分可以用？"],["顧部長立雄：都可以用、全部都可以用！"],["張委員啓楷：全部都可以用？"],["顧部長立雄：第一次的PDA雙方在運送的過程當中沒有好的檢整，所以我們現在也跟美方溝通要求第二次的PDA──現在拜登總統也剛宣布，所以一定會共同地好好檢視。彈藥跟防彈背心這兩部分經過檢整之後都是堪用的。"],["張委員啓楷：以後請他們如果要送或買都要更好的，好不好？品質要顧一下啦！"],["顧部長立雄：因為他也是在協助我們提升後備戰力，這部分我們相關的預算編列還來不及，那美國無償軍援我們來PDA或FMF。"],["張委員啓楷：如果是無償的我們勉強用啦，如果買的話一定要精進，好不好？"],["顧部長立雄：無償的部分也是雙方要共同進行檢視。"],["張委員啓楷：要買合用的、更好的。"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["張委員啓楷：另外一點時間我請教一下，賴清德總統26號有開全社會防衛韌性委員會，有關培養40萬可恃民力這部分，我問你一下，總統開口要培養這40萬的民力，你今年的預算要編在哪裡？你要怎麼訓練？裝備在哪裡？"],["顧部長立雄：這個不是國防部的部分，這個是內政部，不是民兵、是民力！這個部分本來就包含義警、義消跟民防組織，民防法也有相關的規定。民防組織的部分會引進替代役來成為民防組織的新血，目的當然就是在有重大災害的時候或者是有任何緊急狀況的時候可以支持政府持續運作、維持社會的基本運作。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，如果是內政部管的救災那一塊，那不用開這個會呀，總統不用開口說要40萬。"],["顧部長立雄：因為現在以整個全社會防衛韌性來看的話，如果有任何事情發生的時候，關於整個民間的韌性，包括醫療、電、能源、通訊、數位等等都是整體韌性的一塊。"],["張委員啓楷：全民要動員啦，現在只是……部長，我跟你講幾個概念，第一個，如果這麼單純、本來是內政部在做的，你開這個會就沒意思了，總統交代這個事情幹嘛？他應該有其他要精進的吧！例如國防部要負責任哪一部分，沒有嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：大家都只注意到民力的部分，事實上這是整個跨部會，我剛剛講的醫療韌性涉及衛福部，戰略物資韌性涉及到經濟部、農業部，另外通訊韌性包括數發部，然後還包括相關的防空避難室或者是收容救濟站，收容救濟站也涉及到衛福部，這是整個跨部會的。那大家一直執著於民力的那個部分，當然它是整個跨部會來形成全社會的韌性，韌性如果能夠加強，我想我們就可以預防任何的狀況。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，要跟全民多溝通嘛，我給你看一個民調，好不好？這個民調是Yahoo針對40萬民力做了一個調查，不贊成該政策高達六成，進一步去問他要不要參加，不參加支援軍事行動的超過七成，那你怎麼去跟民眾溝通？"],["顧部長立雄：大家會誤以為這是民兵，事實上他不是民兵嘛！他是一個……"],["張委員啓楷：確切跟全國民眾講他不是民兵，是回到內政部所謂的救災而已，對不對？"],["顧部長立雄：不只救災，如果任何緊急狀況發生的時候……"],["張委員啓楷：那就上戰場啊！"],["顧部長立雄：沒有、沒有要上戰場！但是他要有一些相關的……比如說社區，現在臺灣幅員這麼小，受到攻擊的時候很多社區也要自救、互救等等，然後這些民力都要在社區進行一些防護的自救動作嘛，這個不是單純把他送上戰場的概念。"],["張委員啓楷：這要溝通。另外，我們做一個比較簡單的ending，這是網路上很多人在提的，現在既然要響應全社會防衛韌性，部長能不能呼籲？現在賴清德總統的兒子還在美國，對不對？"],["顧部長立雄：我必須……"],["張委員啓楷：他是不是要回來參加這個40萬民力？"],["顧部長立雄：我並不清楚。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個你一定清楚啦，您的兩個孩子現在都在臺灣，對不對？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["張委員啓楷：如果照這個40萬民力，他們會參加這個訓練嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：那就要看他們有沒有被招入民防系統的行列裡面。"],["張委員啓楷：應該大部分都有，對不對？現在全國年輕人應該幾乎都在這40萬民力裡面嘛，沒有？"],["顧部長立雄：不只，如果你要講全國那不只，這不只……"],["張委員啓楷：所以要再看看就對了？"],["顧部長立雄：不只40萬。"],["張委員啓楷：民眾會這樣要求，部長，你應該知道民眾為什麼會提這兩個點嘛？總統是團結的象徵嘛，對不對？國家的領導人嘛，所以希望他家人可以參與我們國家的防衛嘛，那會提到你、提到你的家人也是一樣啊！","最後，他們有提了一個比較……他們說現在黑熊部隊是不是應該去投入這個40萬的民力？你看這幾天開始有颱風，對不對？他們有可能加入我們整個防災嗎？先鍛鍊、先整合嘛，內政部有可能去跟黑熊部隊那邊做一個聯絡嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我想黑熊部隊主要在宣導一些觀念跟相關的作為，事實上要投入救災這個部分，應該還是利用我們既有建制的民力，這當然也就包括民防的力量，也包括我們義警、義消等等的。"],["張委員啓楷：沈伯洋是說他3年要訓練300萬人，難道不是嗎？他們應該利用這個機會加入這40萬的民力啊！"],["顧部長立雄：我想我沒有辦法代替沈委員來回答，好不好？"],["張委員啓楷：好啦，部長，剛剛一開始提的就是人民的納稅錢、我們的國防，事實上如果真的美國一直叫我們交那麼高的保護費的話，到底對臺灣……至少我們在要求，我們願意花錢的同時，拜託一下，我們的武器一定要是合適我們用的，而且一定要是我們要的。而且我另外提一個點，最後做一個ending，我們如果買貴了東西或者在簽約上出了問題，我們準備要去究責嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我們會跟美國政府直接來要求，要對我們負完全的責任，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：謝謝部長，希望我們每一分的納稅錢都用在刀口上，好不好？"],["顧部長立雄：好，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張啓楷委員，顧部長請回。","接下來我們請黃珊珊委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":236,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-2","speakers":["林憶君","黃仁","沈伯洋","羅美玲","馬文君","洪申翰","徐巧芯","王定宇","林楚茵","陳永康","陳冠廷","賴士葆","林國成","黃國昌","林俊憲","鍾佳濱","鄭正鈐","洪孟楷","張啓楷","黃珊珊","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":165,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1137901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長報告：一、「台美國防工業會議成效及合作現況與未來展望」，並備質詢；二、\n「針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為」，並備質詢【機\n密】","agenda_id":"1137901_00005"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}