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重要的事情第一個法律的鬆綁跟相關的規範很重要但是我相信美國為什麼會對這些規定有這麼多的嚴格的限制就是擔心在台灣曾經發生他們給我們的機密的技術可能會外流洩密的問題是台灣不可承受之重對吧"},{"start":273.871,"end":297.205,"text":"我想這應該可能也是美國的關切項目之一因為我在財政委員會所以我一直在關心有關所謂的融資公司就看到今年的檢方起訴兩起國安泄密事件包括海軍陸戰隊還有海巡署的軍職士官他們因為欠了錢在網路上APP去融資借款然後"},{"start":298.744,"end":322.195,"text":"財務管理不當最後變成被要求竊取國家機密這樣的憲民案部長有掌握嗎目前為止有多少黑數我想這個部分的一個軍風機案件我們個人當然這兩起你知道吧是這兩起是起訴的是沒有起訴的有沒有不知道我想我們"},{"start":324.136,"end":347.427,"text":"我希望我們能夠掌握國軍第一讓他融資借款現在供股航庫都有給他們軍人的優惠但是借不到錢的人還是有那怎麼樣了解他們的用錢的狀況或者他是不是有生活上的需求在部隊裡面是不是會去向外面借款"},{"start":349.368,"end":378.05,"text":"雖然我們的規定非常嚴格不准向不法機構借錢但是什麼是不法機構好像也沒有相關的明確的規範第二個已經發生兩個案例今年就兩個案例那我想請問一下我們現在有什麼管道可以讓這些國軍弟兄有機會得到比較優厚的條件去借到可能借到錢解決他生活上的困難而不至於成為這些不法集團甚至可能會成為泄密"},{"start":378.932,"end":379.641,"text":"要求的這些"},{"start":380.816,"end":409.489,"text":"二、針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍委員報告實際上這個我已經在部內開過會議了那我們確實是有想要成立一個讓他們可以以比較簡單的方式來取得貸款的一個管道也就是說他在部裡面在自己的軍隊裡面他能夠求援能夠得到幫助他才不會成為外面的人變成把他當成鎖定的對象你知道外面的"},{"start":410.209,"end":439.105,"text":"這些相關的APP只要軍人不用徵信只要你是軍人就借錢、地利而且不需要抵押品什麼都有這些狀況我覺得軍方要好好的掌握而且這些相關的APP主委也當過軍管會主委我覺得這個部分是除了國防之外剛剛講如果我們要美國同意我們在台灣能夠生產相關的國防產業的武器設備我們首先要先保護好這些相關的"},{"start":439.705,"end":439.825,"text":"好、謝謝委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-07T13:41:30.489000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:41:32.510000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，我想請顧部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-07T13:41:32.510000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:41:41.334000+08:00","text":"請顧部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-07T13:41:41.334000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:41:42.334000+08:00","text":"黃委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-07T13:41:41.634000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:41:41.894000+08:00","text":"部長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-07T13:41:42.074000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:42:00.781000+08:00","text":"我想今天主要是臺美國防工業論壇，因為我有去美國參加，也聽到了徐副部長的演講，其實臺灣滿辛苦的，因為只有美國會提供給我們武器，但是現在的狀況我也認為是臺美之間最好的時候。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-07T13:42:02.381000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:42:14.485000+08:00","text":"在這之前，部長上任的時候，已經發生了很多軍售延宕，還有相關後勤送來的東西不夠好這些狀況。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-07T13:42:14.485000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:42:18.786000+08:00","text":"部長，你也才上任沒多久，這些狀況有沒有辦法解決？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-07T13:42:18.786000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:42:19.086000+08:00","text":"什麼時候會解決？","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-07T13:42:22.960000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:42:34.547000+08:00","text":"剛剛您講的軍售案遲延交付的部分，主要提到拖式2B的這個部分，我想我們希望在今年年底以前……","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-07T13:42:34.547000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:42:35.968000+08:00","text":"你會儘快解決？","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-07T13:42:35.968000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:42:39.170000+08:00","text":"現在F-16的部分，第一架我們希望在今年……","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-07T13:42:39.350000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:42:41.491000+08:00","text":"部長，它這個已經變成了常態嘛！","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-07T13:42:41.491000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:42:48.996000+08:00","text":"就是美國現在……包括剛剛講的，先前庫存的這些物資，它其實也沒有辦法滿足包括烏克蘭，包括以色列，包括臺海可能將來面對的危機，這些東西現在看起來，美國本身自己的供應鏈也不是很穩定。","quality":0.291},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-07T13:42:48.996000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:43:28.480000+08:00","text":"另外，也有相關的智庫在今年年初就已經提出來，其實美國這個問題可能已經成為了所謂的「空箱」，也就是說，當美國國家的軍售也好，或者是軍火供應鏈，它呈現不穩定的狀態……其實我剛剛講，這個最好的時機就是現在，臺灣是不是可以爭取在這個時間成為它國防供應鏈的一環？","quality":0.566},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-07T13:43:28.480000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:43:43.972000+08:00","text":"這也是我這次聽到包括徐副部長，還有美國的官員，在這場工業論壇裡面講的最重要的一件事情，就叫做co-production，現在這件事情，在您任內是不是應該成為最重要推動的一個項目？","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-07T13:43:44.512000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:43:46.954000+08:00","text":"是我們重要的一項課題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-07T13:43:46.954000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:44:03.428000+08:00","text":"在去年我們聽到了美臺商會的會長曾經說，2022年開始談有關共同生產；2024年會有結果，可是現在是2024年，這次去還一樣是在談共同生產，好像沒有什麼進展，是嗎？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-07T13:44:03.428000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:44:05.395000+08:00","text":"兩年了，談的怎麼樣？","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-07T13:44:05.395000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:44:27.711000+08:00","text":"我覺得共同生產要有一些條件，我剛剛在回答其他委員問題的時候也提到了，現在美國認為……相關細節的部分，我們沒有辦法一一跟委員報告，但是最重要如果可以公開揭露的部分的話，當然就是無人載具這一塊……","quality":0.989},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-07T13:44:27.711000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:44:28.711000+08:00","text":"無人機的最優先。","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-07T13:44:28.711000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:44:29.711000+08:00","text":"無人機的最優先。","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-07T13:44:29.711000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:44:30.711000+08:00","text":"因為這一塊他們已經形成政策，已經納入商務部，它會帶團過來跟我們的民間來瞭解我們的能量，也跟……","quality":0.048},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-07T13:44:28.911000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:44:32.213000+08:00","text":"所以部長，我的意思是說，這個時間點是我們介入希望成為所謂的共同生產國家、共同生產供應鏈最好的時機，也就是現在……","quality":0.74},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-07T13:44:51.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:44:53.581000+08:00","text":"對，美國也已經形成一個政策。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-07T13:44:53.821000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:45:04.205000+08:00","text":"對，我聽到智庫還有相關的廠商他們的反映就是兩件事，第一個是法令的限制，因為美國必須要鬆綁它相關輸出的規範。對。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-07T13:45:04.205000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:45:08.366000+08:00","text":"第二，臺灣的廠商，就算我們跟他們一起生產，我們生產的東西可以賣給誰？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-07T13:45:08.366000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:45:08.766000+08:00","text":"還是只能賣給美國？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-07T13:45:08.766000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:45:17.319667+08:00","text":"或者是我們有沒有機會可以賣到其他國家？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-07T13:45:17.319667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:45:25.873333+08:00","text":"這樣我們才有辦法把所謂的國防工業做起來，這兩個部分大概是我在這次聽到裡面最需要解決的問題。是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-07T13:45:25.873333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:45:34.427000+08:00","text":"部長也是法律專家，我想這個也是兩個國家現在面對到……如果我們要提升國防產業，這個產業上面碰到的困境可能要首先解決。","quality":0.038},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-07T13:45:34.427000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:45:40.630000+08:00","text":"對，美國也積極的在這個部分協助我們來加入其中的一環……沒錯。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-07T13:45:40.630000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:45:41.390000+08:00","text":"然後來解決這些問題。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-07T13:45:41.390000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:45:47.432000+08:00","text":"部長，我覺得這件事情如果是你任內最重要的事情，第一個，法律的鬆綁跟相關的規範很重要。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-07T13:45:47.972000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:45:51.873000+08:00","text":"但是我相信，美國為什麼會對這些規定有這麼多嚴格的限制？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-07T13:45:52.054000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:46:01.597000+08:00","text":"就是擔心在臺灣曾經發生，他們給我們機密的技術可能會外流，洩密的問題是臺灣不可承受之重，對吧？","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-07T13:46:03.871000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:46:07.113000+08:00","text":"我想這個應該也是美國的關切項目之一。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-07T13:46:08.373000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:46:32.546000+08:00","text":"因為我在財政委員會，所以我一直在關心有關所謂的融資公司，看到今年檢方起訴兩起國安洩密事件，包括海軍陸戰隊還有海巡署的軍職士官，他們因為欠了錢，在網路上、app去融資借款，然後財務管理不當，最後變成被要求竊取國家機密。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-07T13:46:33.306000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:46:35.828000+08:00","text":"這樣的洩密案部長有掌握嗎？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-07T13:46:35.828000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:46:39.109000+08:00","text":"目前為止有多少黑數？","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-07T13:46:39.109000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:46:44.192000+08:00","text":"我想這個部分的軍風紀案件，我們個人……","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-07T13:46:45.152000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:46:46.433000+08:00","text":"這兩起你知道吧？是。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-07T13:46:47.393000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:46:49.874000+08:00","text":"這兩起是起訴的，沒有起訴的有沒有？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-07T13:46:50.635000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:46:50.875000+08:00","text":"不知道？","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-07T13:46:51.755000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:46:52.195000+08:00","text":"我想我們保防的單位應該會……","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-07T13:46:54.136000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:47:14.226000+08:00","text":"部長，我希望我們能夠掌握，第一，國軍讓他融資借款，現在公股行庫都有給他們軍人的優惠，但是借不到錢的人還是有，要怎麼樣瞭解他們用錢的狀況，或者他是不是有生活上的需求？","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-07T13:47:14.866000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:47:17.407000+08:00","text":"在部隊裡面是不是會向外面借款？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-07T13:47:19.368000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:47:30.737000+08:00","text":"雖然我們的規定非常嚴格，不准向不法機構借錢，但是什麼是不法機構好像也沒有相關明確的規範；第二個，已經發生兩個案例，今年就兩個案例。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-07T13:47:31.237000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:47:50.936000+08:00","text":"我想請問一下，我們現在有什麼管道，可以讓這些國軍弟兄有機會得到比較優厚的條件，可能借到錢來解決他生活上的困難，而不至於成為這些不法集團，甚至可能會讓這些間諜機構要求他洩密，對他們予取予求？","quality":0.805},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-07T13:47:54.358000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:48:05.823000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，事實上這個我已經在部內開過會議了，我們確實是有想要成立一個管道，讓他們可以以比較簡易的方式來取得貸款這樣子。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-07T13:48:07.163000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:48:18.348000+08:00","text":"也就是說他在部裡面，在自己的軍隊裡面，他能夠求援、能夠得到幫助，他才不會被外面的人當成鎖定的對象。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-07T13:48:18.889000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:48:32.616000+08:00","text":"你知道外面這些相關的app，只要軍人就不用徵信，只要你是軍人就借錢，低利而且不需要抵押品就什麼都有，這些狀況我覺得軍方要好好的掌握。","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-07T13:48:33.096000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:48:49.085000+08:00","text":"而且這些相關的app……部長也當過金管會主委，我覺得這個部分是除了國防之外……剛剛講的，如果我們要美國同意我們在臺灣能夠生產相關國防產業的武器設備，我們首先要先保護好這些相關資料的安全。當然。","quality":0.851},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-07T13:48:49.085000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:48:50.085000+08:00","text":"好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-07T13:48:50.085000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:48:51.085000+08:00","text":"所以部長，就這個部分是不是可以給我一個書面的回復，就你們現在針對國軍相關，不管是在借款或者是在生活上面有困難，你們現在一些處理的狀況還有相關所掌握的現狀，可以給我一份書面的報告嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-07T13:48:51.085000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:48:52.085000+08:00","text":"好，我們來……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員珊珊","start":"2024-10-07T13:48:52.085000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:48:53.085000+08:00","text":"還有這兩個案例，他受到的影響也麻煩一起給我，好嗎？謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-07T13:48:49.705000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:48:49.825000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-07T13:48:50.325000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:48:54.896429+08:00","text":"謝謝黃珊珊委員，也請國防部給予報告。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-07T13:48:55.196429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:48:59.482143+08:00","text":"接下來我們請羅智強委員上臺質詢。","quality":0}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"13:41:30 - 13:49:20","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：邀請國防部部長報告一、「台美國防工業會議成效及合作現況與未來展望」，並備質詢。二、「針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為」，並備質詢。【機密】）","gazette":{"lineno":1051,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（13時41分）謝謝主席，我想請顧部長。"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：黃委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：部長好。我想今天主要是臺美國防工業論壇，因為我有去美國參加，也聽到了徐副部長的演講，其實臺灣滿辛苦的，因為只有美國會提供給我們武器，但是現在的狀況我也認為是臺美之間最好的時候。在這之前，部長上任的時候，已經發生了很多軍售延宕，還有相關後勤送來的東西不夠好這些狀況。部長，你也才上任沒多久，這些狀況有沒有辦法解決？什麼時候會解決？"],["顧部長立雄：剛剛您講的軍售案遲延交付的部分，主要提到拖式2B的這個部分，我想我們希望在今年年底以前……"],["黃委員珊珊：你會儘快解決？"],["顧部長立雄：現在F-16的部分，第一架我們希望在今年……"],["黃委員珊珊：部長，它這個已經變成了常態嘛！就是美國現在……包括剛剛講的，先前庫存的這些物資，它其實也沒有辦法滿足包括烏克蘭，包括以色列，包括臺海可能將來面對的危機，這些東西現在看起來，美國本身自己的供應鏈也不是很穩定。另外，也有相關的智庫在今年年初就已經提出來，其實美國這個問題可能已經成為了所謂的「空箱」，也就是說，當美國國家的軍售也好，或者是軍火供應鏈，它呈現不穩定的狀態……其實我剛剛講，這個最好的時機就是現在，臺灣是不是可以爭取在這個時間成為它國防供應鏈的一環？這也是我這次聽到包括徐副部長，還有美國的官員，在這場工業論壇裡面講的最重要的一件事情，就叫做co-production，現在這件事情，在您任內是不是應該成為最重要推動的一個項目？"],["顧部長立雄：是我們重要的一項課題。"],["黃委員珊珊：在去年我們聽到了美臺商會的會長曾經說，2022年開始談有關共同生產；2024年會有結果，可是現在是2024年，這次去還一樣是在談共同生產，好像沒有什麼進展，是嗎？兩年了，談的怎麼樣？"],["顧部長立雄：我覺得共同生產要有一些條件，我剛剛在回答其他委員問題的時候也提到了，現在美國認為……相關細節的部分，我們沒有辦法一一跟委員報告，但是最重要如果可以公開揭露的部分的話，當然就是無人載具這一塊……"],["黃委員珊珊：無人機的最優先。"],["顧部長立雄：無人機的最優先。因為這一塊他們已經形成政策，已經納入商務部，它會帶團過來跟我們的民間來瞭解我們的能量，也跟……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以部長，我的意思是說，這個時間點是我們介入希望成為所謂的共同生產國家、共同生產供應鏈最好的時機，也就是現在……"],["顧部長立雄：對，美國也已經形成一個政策。"],["黃委員珊珊：對，我聽到智庫還有相關的廠商他們的反映就是兩件事，第一個是法令的限制，因為美國必須要鬆綁它相關輸出的規範。"],["顧部長立雄：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：第二，臺灣的廠商，就算我們跟他們一起生產，我們生產的東西可以賣給誰？還是只能賣給美國？或者是我們有沒有機會可以賣到其他國家？這樣我們才有辦法把所謂的國防工業做起來，這兩個部分大概是我在這次聽到裡面最需要解決的問題。"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：部長也是法律專家，我想這個也是兩個國家現在面對到……如果我們要提升國防產業，這個產業上面碰到的困境可能要首先解決。"],["顧部長立雄：對，美國也積極的在這個部分協助我們來加入其中的一環……"],["黃委員珊珊：沒錯。"],["顧部長立雄：然後來解決這些問題。"],["黃委員珊珊：部長，我覺得這件事情如果是你任內最重要的事情，第一個，法律的鬆綁跟相關的規範很重要。但是我相信，美國為什麼會對這些規定有這麼多嚴格的限制？就是擔心在臺灣曾經發生，他們給我們機密的技術可能會外流，洩密的問題是臺灣不可承受之重，對吧？"],["顧部長立雄：我想這個應該也是美國的關切項目之一。"],["黃委員珊珊：因為我在財政委員會，所以我一直在關心有關所謂的融資公司，看到今年檢方起訴兩起國安洩密事件，包括海軍陸戰隊還有海巡署的軍職士官，他們因為欠了錢，在網路上、app去融資借款，然後財務管理不當，最後變成被要求竊取國家機密。這樣的洩密案部長有掌握嗎？目前為止有多少黑數？"],["顧部長立雄：我想這個部分的軍風紀案件，我們個人……"],["黃委員珊珊：這兩起你知道吧？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：這兩起是起訴的，沒有起訴的有沒有？不知道？"],["顧部長立雄：我想我們保防的單位應該會……"],["黃委員珊珊：部長，我希望我們能夠掌握，第一，國軍讓他融資借款，現在公股行庫都有給他們軍人的優惠，但是借不到錢的人還是有，要怎麼樣瞭解他們用錢的狀況，或者他是不是有生活上的需求？在部隊裡面是不是會向外面借款？雖然我們的規定非常嚴格，不准向不法機構借錢，但是什麼是不法機構好像也沒有相關明確的規範；第二個，已經發生兩個案例，今年就兩個案例。我想請問一下，我們現在有什麼管道，可以讓這些國軍弟兄有機會得到比較優厚的條件，可能借到錢來解決他生活上的困難，而不至於成為這些不法集團，甚至可能會讓這些間諜機構要求他洩密，對他們予取予求？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，事實上這個我已經在部內開過會議了，我們確實是有想要成立一個管道，讓他們可以以比較簡易的方式來取得貸款這樣子。"],["黃委員珊珊：也就是說他在部裡面，在自己的軍隊裡面，他能夠求援、能夠得到幫助，他才不會被外面的人當成鎖定的對象。你知道外面這些相關的app，只要軍人就不用徵信，只要你是軍人就借錢，低利而且不需要抵押品就什麼都有，這些狀況我覺得軍方要好好的掌握。而且這些相關的app……部長也當過金管會主委，我覺得這個部分是除了國防之外……剛剛講的，如果我們要美國同意我們在臺灣能夠生產相關國防產業的武器設備，我們首先要先保護好這些相關資料的安全。"],["顧部長立雄：當然。"],["黃委員珊珊：好不好？所以部長，就這個部分是不是可以給我一個書面的回復，就你們現在針對國軍相關，不管是在借款或者是在生活上面有困難，你們現在一些處理的狀況還有相關所掌握的現狀，可以給我一份書面的報告嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：好，我們來……"],["黃委員珊珊：還有這兩個案例，他受到的影響也麻煩一起給我，好嗎？謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃珊珊委員，也請國防部給予報告。","接下來我們請羅智強委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":236,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-2","speakers":["林憶君","黃仁","沈伯洋","羅美玲","馬文君","洪申翰","徐巧芯","王定宇","林楚茵","陳永康","陳冠廷","賴士葆","林國成","黃國昌","林俊憲","鍾佳濱","鄭正鈐","洪孟楷","張啓楷","黃珊珊","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":165,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1137901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長報告：一、「台美國防工業會議成效及合作現況與未來展望」，並備質詢；二、\n「針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為」，並備質詢【機\n密】","agenda_id":"1137901_00005"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}