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8:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:50:20.359000+08:00","text":"我把它分成事前、事中跟事後，看我以前的狀況跟你現在的狀況到底相不相同。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-07T13:50:20.960000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:50:25.902000+08:00","text":"首先，總統蒞臨一個場合是一定會喊「總統到」嗎？","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-07T13:50:29.588000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:50:31.569000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，一般應該是會。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-07T13:50:32.109000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:50:50.878000+08:00","text":"其實就我以前的經驗，不是每個地方都會，有些場合會喊「總統到」，有些場合其實也不會喊「總統到」，但不管有喊「總統到」、沒喊「總統到」，一般來說，比如總統進到政務首長的會議，或者今天有軍事將領在的地方，一般來講，與會的人會怎麼樣？","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-07T13:50:53.989000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:50:55.190000+08:00","text":"一般與會的人應該會起立。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-07T13:50:55.430000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:50:57.091000+08:00","text":"會起立嘛，對不對？是、是。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-07T13:50:57.491000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:51:07.898000+08:00","text":"其實通常也是慣性，如果今天沒有一個「總統到」的統一指令，大家可能就是個別起來，看到旁邊有人起來，大家就會全部起來，這人之常情嘛，對不對？","quality":0.898},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-07T13:51:11.999000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:51:21.345000+08:00","text":"委員，當天的狀況確實是我們在儀節上沒有做好溝通，所以就這個部分……","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-07T13:51:21.445000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:51:27.789000+08:00","text":"對，這就是我想要問的第二個問題，到底現在儀節溝通的環節是怎麼樣？","quality":0.828},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-07T13:51:28.130000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:51:31.872000+08:00","text":"我看到徐巧芯委員在質詢的時候，你們後來給了一個交際科專員，是他來溝通儀節，是嗎？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-07T13:51:37.916000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:51:59.637000+08:00","text":"沒有，這個是……因為這個部分我並不是很清楚，但聯一次長剛剛有提到，事前有做了一些溝通，這部分當然以剛剛聯一次長講的為準，不過在現場的時候，我並沒有看到有任何的……","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-07T13:51:59.637000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:52:00.637000+08:00","text":"部長，你有沒有現場……說實在話，你也不會直接參與那個儀節溝通啦，我在總統府時，一些儀節溝通一定是幕僚對幕僚，也不會叫部長去做儀節溝通，所以我想請教一下，當時儀節溝通到底是怎麼樣？","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-07T13:52:00.637000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:52:01.637000+08:00","text":"能不能請實際上負責的同仁講一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-07T13:52:01.637000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:52:02.637000+08:00","text":"你剛剛已經有回答徐巧芯了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉次長沛智","start":"2024-10-07T13:52:00.077000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:52:32.493000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我們的認知是他覺得那是一個比較溫馨的場合，他說我們不用進去，那我們認知應該是……","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-07T13:52:33.614000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:52:34.394000+08:00","text":"所以他認為不需要起立？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉次長沛智","start":"2024-10-07T13:52:36.056000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:52:36.977000+08:00","text":"這段我們不知道，但是……","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-07T13:52:37.297000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:52:38.518000+08:00","text":"你不知道那誰知道？我們……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-07T13:52:39.699000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:52:45.164000+08:00","text":"我要跟部長說一下，剛剛已經講是交際科的專員，現在怎麼樣，現在不是這個專員？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉次長沛智","start":"2024-10-07T13:52:45.164000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:52:47.746000+08:00","text":"不是、不是，我沒有要否認，我的意思是說，我們以為……","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-07T13:52:49.187000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:52:51.828000+08:00","text":"那是誰在儀節溝通上說不用站起來的？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"劉次長沛智","start":"2024-10-07T13:52:52.388000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:52:53.529000+08:00","text":"沒有人這樣講。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-07T13:52:53.529000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:52:54.709000+08:00","text":"沒有人這樣講？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉次長沛智","start":"2024-10-07T13:52:54.709000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:52:55.289000+08:00","text":"對，沒有人這樣講。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-07T13:52:55.509000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:52:57.490000+08:00","text":"所以通通是誤會一場？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"劉次長沛智","start":"2024-10-07T13:52:57.490000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:52:57.850000+08:00","text":"對，那個……","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-07T13:52:57.850000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:53:04.733000+08:00","text":"那你這樣陷將官於不義喔，我剛剛已經跟部長說過了，如果沒有人要求大家不用起立的話，請問正常狀態下會怎麼樣？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-07T13:53:04.733000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:53:05.733000+08:00","text":"你應該看過很多這個場合。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉次長沛智","start":"2024-10-07T13:53:04.733000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:53:04.873000+08:00","text":"應該是要起立。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-07T13:53:04.893000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:53:05.433000+08:00","text":"對啊，顯然這些將官們都不懂儀節囉？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-07T13:53:15.219000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:53:19.322000+08:00","text":"有沒有、喊不喊「總統到」不是重點，這個你不能糊弄我喔！沒有。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-07T13:53:19.962000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:53:21.763000+08:00","text":"因為我在總統府工作過喔！","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"劉次長沛智","start":"2024-10-07T13:53:22.724000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:53:30.489000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我們疏失的地方是我們沒有跟交際科講清楚，然後所有將官到裡面……因為那是一個茶會……","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-07T13:53:30.489000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:53:31.489000+08:00","text":"我跟你講，你這個……","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉次長沛智","start":"2024-10-07T13:53:31.489000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:53:32.489000+08:00","text":"那是一個茶會的場合。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-07T13:53:30.489000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:53:30.929000+08:00","text":"我覺得你這個說法，說實在話就是在搪塞啦，為什麼？","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-07T13:53:37.873000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:53:45.820000+08:00","text":"你今天跟我講，第一個，要嘛就有人跟你溝通要不要站起來、不用站起來，要嘛就沒有人溝通，不用站起來……","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉次長沛智","start":"2024-10-07T13:53:45.820000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:53:56.789000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我們跟專員溝通的是這個時間點我們國防部要不要有人進去，也就是承辦單位要不要有人進去，然後他們跟我們講：不用進去。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"劉次長沛智","start":"2024-10-07T13:53:57.769000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:54:04.395000+08:00","text":"我們疏失的地方是，沒有跟他們講清楚後面的相關程序應該怎麼走，然後這個是我們……","quality":0.743},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-07T13:54:05.736000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:54:07.818000+08:00","text":"你們到現在為止什麼都沒解釋清楚耶！","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-07T13:54:08.279000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:54:09.841000+08:00","text":"到底是誰說不用站起來？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-07T13:54:09.841000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:54:10.841000+08:00","text":"我都已經……","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉次長沛智","start":"2024-10-07T13:54:09.841000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:54:10.061000+08:00","text":"沒有人講。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-07T13:54:10.061000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:54:10.361000+08:00","text":"沒有人講？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉次長沛智","start":"2024-10-07T13:54:10.361000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:54:11.361000+08:00","text":"對，沒有人講要不要站起來。","quality":0.091},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-07T13:54:10.461000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:54:11.643000+08:00","text":"部長，我跟你們講，你們讓總統背鍋了啦！是。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-07T13:54:12.404000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:54:13.885000+08:00","text":"沒有人講，為什麼今天我們的將領們都做到將軍了……","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-07T13:54:13.885000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:54:25.778000+08:00","text":"對，因為……","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-07T13:54:25.778000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:54:28.199000+08:00","text":"總統進來，就算沒有人喊「總統到」，你覺得他們該怎麼樣？","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-07T13:54:28.199000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:54:30.941000+08:00","text":"因為是一個圓形的座位安排……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-07T13:54:31.662000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:54:42.509000+08:00","text":"不是，部長，府裡所有的會議，或是今天總統不管參加任何地方，管你是圓形座位還是方形座位啊，不是嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-07T13:54:42.509000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:54:43.970000+08:00","text":"你剛剛已經講過了，一般是要怎麼樣？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-07T13:54:46.125000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:55:00.336000+08:00","text":"我這樣子講啦，今天這個事情，事前、事中都沒做，我覺得事後也是一個問題，就算今天發生沒有站起來的情況，在以前的總統府，依馬總統的作法也不會當場講什麼啦，一定事後跟誰講？","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-07T13:55:01.843000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:55:05.025000+08:00","text":"事後跟你講、跟部長講不是嗎？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-07T13:55:05.025000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:55:13.409000+08:00","text":"所以整件事情從前中後全部都出包，才會有今天這個儀節的問題，你們最後是陷賴總統於不義啊！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-07T13:55:14.269000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:55:19.351000+08:00","text":"外面的報導出來變成好像是他很愛發飆，第一天的報導確實是如此啊！","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-07T13:55:20.212000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:55:21.833000+08:00","text":"沒有、沒有這樣的狀況，跟委員報告……","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-07T13:55:22.013000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:55:27.215000+08:00","text":"我跟你們講，你們的澄清也慢很多拍，我直接跟你講，國防部第一天的澄清稿，你有看過嗎？","quality":0.861},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-07T13:55:27.215000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:55:28.096000+08:00","text":"你有沒有看過？","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2024-10-07T13:55:28.096000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:55:29.836000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我想……","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-07T13:55:29.836000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:55:43.724000+08:00","text":"我幫賴總統來跟你們講一下，針對第一天的澄清稿，第一、不澄清內容；第二、不澄清摔文件，是等你出來才澄清，這樣的澄清對總統的尊嚴，變成我比民進黨還在乎耶！","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-10-07T13:55:45.025000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:55:50.027000+08:00","text":"所以今天如果不是事實，你們第一時間就要講清楚，到現在為止，誰說不用站起來也講不清楚，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-07T13:55:50.527000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:55:52.527000+08:00","text":"謝謝羅智強委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-07T13:55:52.827000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:55:56.541286+08:00","text":"接下來請楊瓊瓔委員上臺質詢。","quality":0}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"13:49:40 - 13:55:54","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：邀請國防部部長報告一、「台美國防工業會議成效及合作現況與未來展望」，並備質詢。二、「針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為」，並備質詢。【機密】）","gazette":{"lineno":1092,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（13時49分）有請部長。"],["主席：有請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：羅委員好。"],["羅委員智強：部長好，因為我在總統府服務過，所以最近對於總統在會見國軍將領時，因起立問題造成的一些風波，我自己有一些納悶，到底現在總統府安排儀節，跟軍方、國防部在儀節上的溝通到底有什麼問題。我把它分成事前、事中跟事後，看我以前的狀況跟你現在的狀況到底相不相同。","首先，總統蒞臨一個場合是一定會喊「總統到」嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，一般應該是會。"],["羅委員智強：其實就我以前的經驗，不是每個地方都會，有些場合會喊「總統到」，有些場合其實也不會喊「總統到」，但不管有喊「總統到」、沒喊「總統到」，一般來說，比如總統進到政務首長的會議，或者今天有軍事將領在的地方，一般來講，與會的人會怎麼樣？"],["顧部長立雄：一般與會的人應該會起立。"],["羅委員智強：會起立嘛，對不對？"],["顧部長立雄：是、是。"],["羅委員智強：其實通常也是慣性，如果今天沒有一個「總統到」的統一指令，大家可能就是個別起來，看到旁邊有人起來，大家就會全部起來，這人之常情嘛，對不對？"],["顧部長立雄：委員，當天的狀況確實是我們在儀節上沒有做好溝通，所以就這個部分……"],["羅委員智強：對，這就是我想要問的第二個問題，到底現在儀節溝通的環節是怎麼樣？我看到徐巧芯委員在質詢的時候，你們後來給了一個交際科專員，是他來溝通儀節，是嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：沒有，這個是……因為這個部分我並不是很清楚，但聯一次長剛剛有提到，事前有做了一些溝通，這部分當然以剛剛聯一次長講的為準，不過在現場的時候，我並沒有看到有任何的……"],["羅委員智強：部長，你有沒有現場……說實在話，你也不會直接參與那個儀節溝通啦，我在總統府時，一些儀節溝通一定是幕僚對幕僚，也不會叫部長去做儀節溝通，所以我想請教一下，當時儀節溝通到底是怎麼樣？能不能請實際上負責的同仁講一下。你剛剛已經有回答徐巧芯了。"],["劉次長沛智：跟委員報告，我們的認知是他覺得那是一個比較溫馨的場合，他說我們不用進去，那我們認知應該是……"],["羅委員智強：所以他認為不需要起立？"],["劉次長沛智：這段我們不知道，但是……"],["羅委員智強：你不知道那誰知道？"],["劉次長沛智：我們……"],["羅委員智強：我要跟部長說一下，剛剛已經講是交際科的專員，現在怎麼樣，現在不是這個專員？"],["劉次長沛智：不是、不是，我沒有要否認，我的意思是說，我們以為……"],["羅委員智強：那是誰在儀節溝通上說不用站起來的？"],["劉次長沛智：沒有人這樣講。"],["羅委員智強：沒有人這樣講？"],["劉次長沛智：對，沒有人這樣講。"],["羅委員智強：所以通通是誤會一場？"],["劉次長沛智：對，那個……"],["羅委員智強：那你這樣陷將官於不義喔，我剛剛已經跟部長說過了，如果沒有人要求大家不用起立的話，請問正常狀態下會怎麼樣？你應該看過很多這個場合。"],["劉次長沛智：應該是要起立。"],["羅委員智強：對啊，顯然這些將官們都不懂儀節囉？有沒有、喊不喊「總統到」不是重點，這個你不能糊弄我喔！"],["劉次長沛智：沒有。"],["羅委員智強：因為我在總統府工作過喔！"],["劉次長沛智：跟委員報告，我們疏失的地方是我們沒有跟交際科講清楚，然後所有將官到裡面……因為那是一個茶會……"],["羅委員智強：我跟你講，你這個……"],["劉次長沛智：那是一個茶會的場合。"],["羅委員智強：我覺得你這個說法，說實在話就是在搪塞啦，為什麼？你今天跟我講，第一個，要嘛就有人跟你溝通要不要站起來、不用站起來，要嘛就沒有人溝通，不用站起來……"],["劉次長沛智：跟委員報告，我們跟專員溝通的是這個時間點我們國防部要不要有人進去，也就是承辦單位要不要有人進去，然後他們跟我們講：不用進去。我們疏失的地方是，沒有跟他們講清楚後面的相關程序應該怎麼走，然後這個是我們……"],["羅委員智強：你們到現在為止什麼都沒解釋清楚耶！到底是誰說不用站起來？我都已經……"],["劉次長沛智：沒有人講。"],["羅委員智強：沒有人講？"],["劉次長沛智：對，沒有人講要不要站起來。"],["羅委員智強：部長，我跟你們講，你們讓總統背鍋了啦！"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["羅委員智強：沒有人講，為什麼今天我們的將領們都做到將軍了……"],["顧部長立雄：對，因為……"],["羅委員智強：總統進來，就算沒有人喊「總統到」，你覺得他們該怎麼樣？"],["顧部長立雄：因為是一個圓形的座位安排……"],["羅委員智強：不是，部長，府裡所有的會議，或是今天總統不管參加任何地方，管你是圓形座位還是方形座位啊，不是嗎？你剛剛已經講過了，一般是要怎麼樣？我這樣子講啦，今天這個事情，事前、事中都沒做，我覺得事後也是一個問題，就算今天發生沒有站起來的情況，在以前的總統府，依馬總統的作法也不會當場講什麼啦，一定事後跟誰講？事後跟你講、跟部長講不是嗎？所以整件事情從前中後全部都出包，才會有今天這個儀節的問題，你們最後是陷賴總統於不義啊！外面的報導出來變成好像是他很愛發飆，第一天的報導確實是如此啊！"],["顧部長立雄：沒有、沒有這樣的狀況，跟委員報告……"],["羅委員智強：我跟你們講，你們的澄清也慢很多拍，我直接跟你講，國防部第一天的澄清稿，你有看過嗎？你有沒有看過？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我想……"],["羅委員智強：我幫賴總統來跟你們講一下，針對第一天的澄清稿，第一、不澄清內容；第二、不澄清摔文件，是等你出來才澄清，這樣的澄清對總統的尊嚴，變成我比民進黨還在乎耶！所以今天如果不是事實，你們第一時間就要講清楚，到現在為止，誰說不用站起來也講不清楚，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅智強委員。","接下來請楊瓊瓔委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":236,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-2","speakers":["林憶君","黃仁","沈伯洋","羅美玲","馬文君","洪申翰","徐巧芯","王定宇","林楚茵","陳永康","陳冠廷","賴士葆","林國成","黃國昌","林俊憲","鍾佳濱","鄭正鈐","洪孟楷","張啓楷","黃珊珊","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":165,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1137901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長報告：一、「台美國防工業會議成效及合作現況與未來展望」，並備質詢；二、\n「針對美國軍火商雷神對台軍售涉虛報軍售價格情事及後續因應及精進作為」，並備質詢【機\n密】","agenda_id":"1137901_00005"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}