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限縮那你現在講比如說我舉桃園為例啊比如說我們現在就有四所學校有拆建的需求如果從你這裡中央拿到4.5億元如果光每一所學校就要1到1.5億你怎麼處理你這個還是分三年編列的計畫"},{"start":149.472,"end":177.239,"text":"所以說比例上來講我覺得是有點失衡剛剛也有很多委員有講以前的這個時代造價可能一坪十萬現在已經超過二十萬可是你補貼算下來一坪才兩萬多塊所以其實不太好用那我有看到這個按照新聞裡面去寫因為大家關心嘛所以教育部當然也從善如流有增加新年年度114到117年度變成350億嘛其實是有一個大量增加的狀況可是這樣增加的幅度夠嗎"},{"start":178.964,"end":201.516,"text":"會不會又跟過去一樣是只能做比較多的補救而沒有辦法去做拆建這件事情部長我想謝謝委員關心確實他在這個中央跟地方怎麼樣去合作因為在許多的這些教室上的一些安全的一個考量他也要必須要有地方政府來做一些協助"},{"start":203.197,"end":220.843,"text":"我現在要問的就是說比如說你這樣這些裡面的要點啊要不要與與時俱進來做一些修正我想我們可以來這個檢討這個陳委員所講的怎麼樣與時俱進能夠真正中央跟地方來一起合作來改善這些所以我是擔心被人說補拆不補建"},{"start":221.263,"end":223.145,"text":"二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長鄭英耀及農業部長"},{"start":244.744,"end":270.363,"text":"補強的比例遠遠高於拆除的比例遠遠在這個地方因為很有可能補強他拿不到未來拆建的經費這些都是實務上你在執行這個政策的時候可能會遇到的問題額度增加我們當然樂見但我希望教育部不要為德不足相關的要點多聽一下地方的意見給予地方有利的支持可以嗎好的好 謝謝好 謝謝牛許廷委員接下來我們有請徐富奎委員發言"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-07T13:53:34.808000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:53:38.211000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，教育部部長辛苦了，有請。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-07T13:53:38.512000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:53:38.872000+08:00","text":"我們有請鄭部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-10-07T13:53:43.772000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:53:44.052000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-07T13:53:44.652000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:53:44.872000+08:00","text":"部長午安。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-07T13:53:45.653000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:53:52.995000+08:00","text":"今天我們討論中小學老舊校舍補強整建計畫的執行狀況，畢竟這是媒體高度關注的。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-07T13:53:54.615000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:54:02.198000+08:00","text":"本席認為這計畫立意雖好，但難免為德不卒，所以希望跟教育部做一下討論，看看有沒有一些改進空間。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-07T13:54:02.198000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:54:04.079000+08:00","text":"按照教育部在報告裡所寫的，該計畫從民國98年開始做，對不對？是。","quality":0.808},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-07T13:54:04.319000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:54:04.519000+08:00","text":"請部長先聽一下數字。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-07T13:54:04.579000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:54:13.823000+08:00","text":"98年到105年總共編列736億，補強辦理的棟數是2,998棟，拆建大概是1,324棟，比例約為3比1。","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-07T13:54:14.164000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:54:15.866000+08:00","text":"106年到108年預算是390億元，補強的校舍有2,296棟，拆建數剩下580棟，比例從3比1變成5比1。","quality":0.724},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-07T13:54:31.224000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:54:45.172000+08:00","text":"109年到111年經費剩188.5億，補強1,397棟，拆建193棟，數字變8比1、9比1，甚至到10比1去了，經費越來越少，比例也越來越懸殊！","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-07T13:54:45.993000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:54:48.854000+08:00","text":"部長，原因是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-10-07T13:54:48.854000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:54:50.195000+08:00","text":"我想隨著時間過去，數量當然會減少。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-07T13:54:56.054000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:54:56.514000+08:00","text":"數量在減少？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-07T13:54:56.895000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:54:58.215000+08:00","text":"部長，我在意的是比例。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-07T13:54:58.936000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:55:01.437000+08:00","text":"為什麼選擇補強的比選擇拆建的多？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-10-07T13:55:06.681000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:55:19.629000+08:00","text":"早期是整個系統性的針對921大地震以後所造成的可能危樓跟需要耐震補強的，按照期程去做規劃。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-07T13:55:19.629000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:55:39.911000+08:00","text":"其實預算也有規定，比如「教育部國民及學前教育署補助公立高級中等以下學校改善校舍耐震能力作業要點」第三點第三項規定，本署僅補助拆除整地所需經費，其餘重建工程所需經費需由主管地方政府自籌經費辦理。","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-07T13:55:41.352000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:55:47.538000+08:00","text":"裡面其實有很多這樣的規定，把本來立意很好的概念做了很多限縮。","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-07T13:55:48.519000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:55:58.830000+08:00","text":"以桃園為例，我們現在有4所學校有拆建需求，我從中央拿到4.5億元，但其實一所學校就需要1到1.5億，請問怎麼處理？","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-07T13:55:59.390000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:56:04.673000+08:00","text":"而且這還是分3年編列的計畫，所以比例上有點失衡。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-07T13:56:04.933000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:56:14.715000+08:00","text":"剛剛很多委員提到，以前造價可能一坪10萬，現在已經超過20萬，但從補貼算下來一坪才二萬多，其實不太好用。","quality":0.884},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-07T13:56:16.596000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:56:29.239000+08:00","text":"按照新聞所寫，畢竟大家關心，所以教育部當然從善如流，在新年度114年到117年預算變成350億，確實大量增加，可是這樣增加的幅度夠嗎？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-07T13:56:30.964000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:56:37.628000+08:00","text":"會不會又跟過去一樣，只能做比較多的補救，而沒有辦法拆建，部長？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-10-07T13:56:38.228000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:56:38.748000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員關心。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-10-07T13:56:39.789000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:56:53.496000+08:00","text":"確實，中央跟地方怎麼樣合作，因為在教室的安全考量上，必須由地方政府給予協助。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-07T13:56:55.197000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:57:00.979000+08:00","text":"我現在問的是要點，要不要與時俱進來做一些修正？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2024-10-07T13:57:01.099000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:57:10.742000+08:00","text":"我想可以檢討，誠如委員所講，怎麼樣與時俱進能夠真正中央跟地方一起合作，來改善這些……","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-07T13:57:10.742000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:57:23.743000+08:00","text":"我擔心會變成補拆不補建，因為建了反而會變成地方政府的財政負擔，那麼事情當然就往後拖！","quality":0.205},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-07T13:57:23.743000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-07T13:57:36.744000+08:00","text":"再來，大量補強雖不失為一個方法，可是實務上所遇到的狀況是：這間學校很老舊，所以校方跟家長都很期待有拆除重建的機會；但調查後發現，學校曾經申請過補強，以致拆建的機會反而沒有了，這是常常會發生的狀況。","quality":0.011},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-07T13:57:36.744000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:57:45.931000+08:00","text":"我剛剛之所以特別提到補強的比例遠遠高於拆除的比例，原因也在於此，因為補強後未來很有可能拿不到拆建經費，這些都是實務上在執行政策時可能會遇到的問題。","quality":0.71},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-07T13:57:46.432000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:57:57.200000+08:00","text":"我們當然樂見額度增加，但我希望教育部不要為德不卒，在相關要點上多聽一下地方意見，給地方有力的支持，可以嗎？好的。謝謝。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-07T13:57:58.060000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:58:00.022000+08:00","text":"謝謝牛煦庭委員。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-07T13:58:00.022000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-07T13:58:02.343000+08:00","text":"接下來我們有請徐富癸委員發言。","quality":0.929}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"13:53:32 - 13:58:05","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長陳駿季列席就「班班有鮮奶整備及執行情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、行政院主計總處、國家發展委員會列席就「中小學老舊校舍補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另請內政部國土管理署派員列席備詢。\n【10月7日及9日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":1059,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（13時53分）謝謝主席，教育部部長辛苦了，有請。"],["主席：我們有請鄭部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長午安。今天我們討論中小學老舊校舍補強整建計畫的執行狀況，畢竟這是媒體高度關注的。本席認為這計畫立意雖好，但難免為德不卒，所以希望跟教育部做一下討論，看看有沒有一些改進空間。按照教育部在報告裡所寫的，該計畫從民國98年開始做，對不對？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：請部長先聽一下數字。98年到105年總共編列736億，補強辦理的棟數是2,998棟，拆建大概是1,324棟，比例約為3比1。106年到108年預算是390億元，補強的校舍有2,296棟，拆建數剩下580棟，比例從3比1變成5比1。109年到111年經費剩188.5億，補強1,397棟，拆建193棟，數字變8比1、9比1，甚至到10比1去了，經費越來越少，比例也越來越懸殊！部長，原因是什麼？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想隨著時間過去，數量當然會減少。"],["牛委員煦庭：數量在減少？部長，我在意的是比例。為什麼選擇補強的比選擇拆建的多？"],["鄭部長英耀：早期是整個系統性的針對921大地震以後所造成的可能危樓跟需要耐震補強的，按照期程去做規劃。"],["牛委員煦庭：其實預算也有規定，比如「教育部國民及學前教育署補助公立高級中等以下學校改善校舍耐震能力作業要點」第三點第三項規定，本署僅補助拆除整地所需經費，其餘重建工程所需經費需由主管地方政府自籌經費辦理。裡面其實有很多這樣的規定，把本來立意很好的概念做了很多限縮。以桃園為例，我們現在有4所學校有拆建需求，我從中央拿到4.5億元，但其實一所學校就需要1到1.5億，請問怎麼處理？而且這還是分3年編列的計畫，所以比例上有點失衡。剛剛很多委員提到，以前造價可能一坪10萬，現在已經超過20萬，但從補貼算下來一坪才二萬多，其實不太好用。按照新聞所寫，畢竟大家關心，所以教育部當然從善如流，在新年度114年到117年預算變成350億，確實大量增加，可是這樣增加的幅度夠嗎？會不會又跟過去一樣，只能做比較多的補救，而沒有辦法拆建，部長？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員關心。確實，中央跟地方怎麼樣合作，因為在教室的安全考量上，必須由地方政府給予協助。"],["牛委員煦庭：我現在問的是要點，要不要與時俱進來做一些修正？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想可以檢討，誠如委員所講，怎麼樣與時俱進能夠真正中央跟地方一起合作，來改善這些……"],["牛委員煦庭：我擔心會變成補拆不補建，因為建了反而會變成地方政府的財政負擔，那麼事情當然就往後拖！再來，大量補強雖不失為一個方法，可是實務上所遇到的狀況是：這間學校很老舊，所以校方跟家長都很期待有拆除重建的機會；但調查後發現，學校曾經申請過補強，以致拆建的機會反而沒有了，這是常常會發生的狀況。我剛剛之所以特別提到補強的比例遠遠高於拆除的比例，原因也在於此，因為補強後未來很有可能拿不到拆建經費，這些都是實務上在執行政策時可能會遇到的問題。我們當然樂見額度增加，但我希望教育部不要為德不卒，在相關要點上多聽一下地方意見，給地方有力的支持，可以嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：好的。"],["牛委員煦庭：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭委員。接下來我們有請徐富癸委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":374,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-3","speakers":["萬美玲","林倩綺","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","柯志恩","葉元之","范雲","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","鍾佳濱","林宜瑾","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","張嘉郡","洪申翰","張雅琳","林岱樺","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","林月琴","吳春城","黃健豪","黃國昌","牛煦庭","徐富癸","羅智強","吳沛憶","高金素梅","李彥秀"],"page_start":295,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1138101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138101_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀及農業部部長陳駿季列席就「班班有鮮奶整備及執行情形」進行專題\n報告，並備質詢；二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、行政院主計總處、國家發展委員會列席就「中小\n學老舊校舍補強、整建計畫執行成效及未來規劃方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另請內政部國\n土管理署派員列席備詢","agenda_id":"1138101_00016"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}