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楊瓊瓔發言要邀請書發部黃部長黃部長邀請這個主秘黃文哲主秘黃文哲主秘邀請我們行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心黃執行秘書黃執行秘邀請內政部警政署我們的副署長李副署長謝謝好政府部門為了打詐"},{"start":34.127,"end":54.378,"text":"越打越詐,這是目前社會非常狼狼上口的一個語詞,但是聽到很難過。因為我們看到大家希望把這個事情能夠保護人民,但是似乎在預算不斷的增加,但是還是那四個字,越打越詐。"},{"start":55.439,"end":81.436,"text":"其實坦白講講到這個越打越詐除了人民難過我想各部會以及所謂的打詐國家隊應該也都很謹慎而且也很緊張很清楚的就是說目前的社會現象是如此所以我首先我們先從內部再來看社會面向第一個警政署你打詐宣傳費呢你暴增了13倍"},{"start":82.896,"end":93.782,"text":"114年度裡頭2.4億你113年度是1700多萬所以本席也看到你竟然兩年度的說明是一字未改啊"},{"start":95.249,"end":118.07,"text":"差了一年你要多了兩億的經費但是你在說明欄裡頭是一字未改所以本席也特別提出希望你們要怎麼樣告訴我們你要怎麼樣的具體方案所以到目前為止你只告訴我們辦公室說什麼你要加大電視以及網路防詐的這個宣傳力道"},{"start":119.131,"end":139.114,"text":"但是我們告訴你你要增加的這些錢增加的這個13倍到底你的具體執行計畫到底是怎麼樣從9月份到現在已經10月份一個多月的時間拿不出來你們到底是不願意拿出來還是你們有具體方案"},{"start":141.811,"end":155.306,"text":"謝謝委員我想明年我們的預算到2.3億最主要就是說我們分析的最近詐騙的這個類型這個公點都知道請你針對本席的提問"},{"start":157.247,"end":182.463,"text":"本席要說你這個差一年增加了兩億的經費到底你要怎麼做你會增加經費就是知道目前社會的現象是緊張的所以我們要支持但是你要有一個KPI你到底要怎麼做你的具體方案你的KPI是怎麼樣一個多月在你預算編列送到立法院到現在請從議到現在"},{"start":185.845,"end":209.571,"text":"你還拿不出來不當一回事嗎?我們2.3億最主要就是網路的宣導還有電視的宣導那最主要可能我們後面那個備助人沒有說明清楚不是可能我請問你一句話本期一直追這個案子到目前為止還沒提出具體方案你有預算一定有方案嘛你什麼時候可以提出啊?"},{"start":210.839,"end":215.781,"text":"接下來卓榮泰先生也講過院長講過集中打詐宣傳標案得標廠商集中高度所有的單位有沒有這回事"},{"start":241.462,"end":266.802,"text":"卓院長說如果這回事要檢討有沒有這回事我們目前是公開招標的當然是公開招標請針對問題回答吧要不然難怪是越打越炸卓院長已經說話了如果是高度集中的時候要檢討要不要檢討那當然因為我們明年就開始用複試今年就開始用複試結標了"},{"start":271.308,"end":290.115,"text":"所以你們也看到各單位都在這邊也看到如果是集中標案變成全如左院長所說的你們也想要改變方法廣泛訊的你只有叫我們說要試詐你們要去宣傳道高一尺魔高一丈啊"},{"start":291.169,"end":291.249,"text":"打詐中心"},{"start":306.98,"end":323.125,"text":"行政院宣布打詐經費預計編列73億比2024年增加了4.8倍那請問大幅增加這個預算的重點是什麼你有沒有方案"},{"start":324.165,"end":341.014,"text":"防損財損的績效指標你要怎麼樣降低這些案件本席給你一個數字給你這個數字也就是說我們看到現在在監獄裡頭受刑人全部全國五萬八千人五萬八千人裡頭"},{"start":342.882,"end":360.022,"text":"五萬八千人裡頭第一個吸毒者第二個就是我們的這個詐欺犯讓我很難過我們如果五萬八千人統計這兩個一二名的排行榜就將近有三萬五千多人"},{"start":360.743,"end":375.835,"text":"是因為這樣子所以剛剛北京也在司法委員會我所提出我說這樣子的一個詐欺案件已經困擾了全國的民眾接到詐騙警察的電話占上94%怎麼辦怎麼辦所以請教我們預計要編列的73億的這些經費你的在2024年增加4.8倍你的"},{"start":388.432,"end":410.323,"text":"計較指標是什麼?是,感謝委員跟我們指導提出這麼聚焦的一個問題在明年的預算當中有增淚的部分就是因為我們要因應網路科技運用精進計畫這個會增多了50多億元那這個區塊就是為了回應那個現在委員在你的那個簡報上面所提到的對於網路區塊"},{"start":411.584,"end":439.806,"text":"因為他都是透過VPN我們希望能夠留存必要的訊息未來才能夠做後續的反查跟追蹤那第二個更重要的是在打詐綱領2.0在明年的時候我們目前也積極的召集各部會持續的來研討不管是在四大堵詐、防詐、阻詐跟懲詐五個面向會就目前我們社會大眾所期待的"},{"start":440.106,"end":466.136,"text":"要做具體的策略還有提出具體的分項指標應該會讓國連有一個耳目新而且能夠有感的一個具體的做法以上好我也謝謝你剛才的回答我們也希望能夠有這個理念方向要去落實你的KPI竟然定出來所以我再給你一個數字現在居冠的詐書是什麼假投資是"},{"start":467.796,"end":488.281,"text":"假投資的詐騙是低迷我們看到到8月份都是站上4成以上我們又看到一天至少有3億的財損金額產生雖然我們政府也提出了打詐這個儀表本真正的還原真相"},{"start":489.281,"end":516.304,"text":"也就是目前受騙的財損的金額案件數字以及財損的額度是足足在增加所以如果以目前的現象來看到2024年我們退工會有千億以上的人民的財損、受損這是非常的嚴重所以因此不管是在臉書、Google這些剛才所說的網路平台的一個廣告你們要怎麼樣"},{"start":517.845,"end":546.602,"text":"去合作主詐如果政府這個聯繫工作沒有做那也就是在整個網路的平台管理方法你有什麼更精進的方案請做說明感謝委員一直關注在網路這個區塊那個打詐新釋法他的核心要件就是讓民眾減少接觸減少誤信才能夠減少被害他已經94%全部都有怎麼辦"},{"start":547.608,"end":572.731,"text":"所以說在網路的區塊我們透過打詐新法要求的就是平台業者要能夠在源頭做好自主管理他是等待不是等待著民眾報案之後我們才來通報下架而是在廣告投放前就應該依照合約的自主管理你現在討論到這裡也就是本席要跟你討論的精髓各單位都在這裡"},{"start":574.208,"end":598.942,"text":"為了這個社會現象94%的人都接到詐騙集團現在投資詐騙機關每一天有3億以上的金額的財損被詐騙掉這樣子的情況我們台灣是一個幸福美麗的國家怎麼連人民的財產安全都保不了這個政府要怎麼樣對得起民眾"},{"start":600.123,"end":619.115,"text":"所以請所有的相關單位剛剛打詐中心所說的也成立了一個特別小組我覺得本期建議橫向的聯繫必須要好好的去聯繫我們希望可以讓人民來安心這是國家政府必須要負責任做的對不對是 加油"}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"13:39:50 - 13:50:12","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請數位發展部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心、法務部、內政部警政署、內政部警政署刑事警察局、金融監督管理委員會就「我國打詐成效與防制」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":1340,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（13時39分）謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言，要邀請數發部黃部長、邀請黃文哲主秘、邀請行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心黃執行秘書、邀請內政部警政署副署長。謝謝。"],["主席：請黃部長、黃主秘、黃執秘及李副署長。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：政府部門為了打詐，越打越詐，這是目前社會非常琅琅上口的一個語詞，但是聽到很難過，因為我們看到大家希望把這個事情做好，能夠保護人民，似乎預算是不斷地增加，但還是那四個字─越打越詐。其實坦白講，講到這個越打越詐，除了人民難過，我想各部會以及所謂的打詐國家隊應該也都很謹慎，而且也很緊張，很清楚地就是目前的社會現象是如此。","首先我們先從內部再來看社會面向，第一個，警政署打詐宣傳費暴增了13倍，114年度的預算編列2.4億，113年度是編列一千七百多萬，但本席看到你們這兩個年度的預算說明居然是一字未改，差了一年就要多支出2億的經費，可是在說明欄裡頭卻是一字未改！所以本席也特別提出，希望你們要來告訴我們，你們是有怎麼樣的具體方案，但是到目前為止，你只告訴我們辦公室說預算是要加大電視以及網路防詐的宣傳力道。但是我們告訴你，你要增加的這些經費相較今年高達13倍，到底你的具體執行計畫是怎麼樣？但是從9月到現在已經10月，一個多月的時間拿不出來，你們到底是不願意拿出來，還是你們沒有具體方案？副座，請做說明。"],["李副署長政曉：謝謝委員，我想明年我們的預算到2.3億，最主要就是我們分析了最近詐騙的類型……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個重點都知道，請你針對本席的提問！本席說的是你們差一年就增加了2億的經費，到底你要怎麼做？你會增加經費就是知道目前社會的現象是緊張的，所以我們也要支持，但是你要有一個KPI，你到底要怎麼做？你的具體方案、你的KPI是怎麼樣？一個多月了，你們預算編列送到立法院，現在我們要求重議，到現在你還拿不出來，不當一回事嗎？怎麼回事？"],["李副署長政曉：我們的2.3億最主要就是網路的宣導，還有電視的宣導，最主要可能是我們後面的那個備註欄沒有說明清楚，我們分層……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我請問你一句話，本席一直追這個案子，到目前為止還沒有提出具體方案，你有預算一定有方案嘛，你什麼時候可以提出？"],["李副署長政曉：我們一個禮拜內……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：難怪預算重議這麼重要！"],["李副署長政曉：我們一個禮拜內跟……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：一個禮拜內提出你增加的理由，說明一字未改的要增加2億，到底你的具體方案是什麼，一個禮拜之內拿出來。"],["李副署長政曉：好，一個禮拜內。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：接下來，卓榮泰先生也講過，院長講過，打詐宣傳標案的得標廠商高度集中，所有的單位，有沒有這回事？卓院長說如果有這回事要檢討，有沒有這回事？"],["李副署長政曉：我們目前是公開招標的，尤其是明年的預算……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然是公開招標啊，請針對問題回答，好不好？要不然難怪是越打越詐！卓院長已經說話了，如果是高度集中的時候要檢討，要不要檢討？要不要檢討？"],["李副署長政曉：當然，因為我們今年就開始用複數決標，明年也是複數決標的，就是會依照……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以你們也看到，各單位都在這邊也看到，如果是集中標案，變成誠如卓院長所說的，你們有沒有想要改變方法？廣泛性的，你只有叫我們說要識詐，你沒有去宣傳，道高一尺魔高一丈啊，是不是？是不是去檢討，誠如院長所說的，去檢討你們的方案，好不好？"],["李副署長政曉：會的，我們會檢討。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你們幾個都頻頻點頭，表示你們看到這個問題了，好，警政署請回座。","接下來請問打詐中心，行政院宣布打詐經費預計編列73億元，比2024年增加4.8倍，請問大幅增加預算的重點是什麼？有沒有方案？針對防止財損的績效指標，你要怎麼樣降低這些案件？本席給你一個數字，這個數字就是，我們看到現在全國監獄裡的受刑人5萬8,000人，這5萬8,000人裡頭，排名第一的是吸毒者，第二個就是詐欺犯，讓我很難過，如果針對這5萬8,000人去做統計，這個第一、二名的排行榜就有將近三萬五千多人，因為這樣子，剛剛本席也有在司法及法制委員會提出，我說這樣的詐欺案件已經困擾了全國的民眾，接到詐騙集團的電話站上94%，怎麼辦？怎麼辦？所以請教，我們預計要編列73億的經費，在2024年增加了4.8倍，你的績效指標是什麼？"],["黃執行秘書國師：感謝委員給我們指導，提出這麼聚焦的一個問題，在明年的預算當中有增列的部分就是因為我們要因應網路科技，運用精進計畫，這個會增多了五十多億元，這個區塊就是為了回應委員簡報上面所提到的，對於網路區塊，因為他都是透過VPN，我們希望能夠留存必要的訊息，未來才能夠做後續的反查跟追蹤。第二個，更重要的是打詐綱領2.0，在明年的時候，我們目前也積極的召集各部會持續來研討，不管是在識詐、堵詐、防詐、阻詐跟懲詐這五個面向，會就目前我們社會大眾所期待的要做具體的策略，還有提出具體的分項指標，應該會讓國人有一個耳目一新而且能夠有感的具體作法。以上。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，我也謝謝你剛才的回答，我們也希望能夠有這個理念方向就要去落實，你的KPI既然訂出來，所以我再給你一個數字，現在居冠的詐術是什麼？假投資！"],["黃執行秘書國師：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：假投資的詐騙是第一名，我們看到，到8月份都是占四成以上，我們又看到一天至少有3億的財損金額產生，雖然我們政府也提出了打詐儀錶板，真正的還原真相，也就是目前受騙的財損金額、案件數字以及財損的額度是一直在增加，如果以目前的現象來看，到2024年我們推估會有千億以上的人民財產受損，這是非常的嚴重。因此不管是在臉書、Google這一些剛才所說的網路平臺的廣告，你們要怎麼樣去合作阻詐，如果政府這個聯繫工作沒有做，也就是在整個網路的平臺管理方案，你有什麼更精進的方案？請做說明。"],["黃執行秘書國師：是，感謝委員一直關注在網路這個區塊，打詐新四法的核心要件就是讓民眾減少接觸、減少誤信，才能夠減少被害。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不可能！已經94%了，全部都有，怎麼辦？"],["黃執行秘書國師：是，所以在網路的區塊，我們透過打詐新法，要求的就是平臺業者要能夠在源頭做好自主管理，不是等待民眾報案之後，我們才來通報下架，而是在廣告投放前就應該依照合約的自主管理辦法……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：現在討論到這裡，也就是本席要跟你講的，跟你討論的精髓，各單位都在這裡，為了這個社會現象，94%的人都接到詐騙集團的電話，現在投資詐騙居冠，每一天有3億以上金額的財損被詐騙掉。我們臺灣是一個幸福美麗的國家，怎麼連人民的財產安全都保不了，這個政府要怎麼樣對得起民眾？所以請所有的相關單位，剛剛打詐中心所說的，也成立了一個特別小組，本席建議橫向的聯繫必須要好好的去聯繫，我們希望可以讓人民安心，這是國家政府必須要負責任做的，對不對？"],["黃執行秘書國師：是，謝謝委員指導。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：加油！"],["黃執行秘書國師：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝楊委員。","接下來請邱志偉委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":88,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-4","speakers":["魯明哲","林國成","許智傑","林俊憲","林沛祥","李昆澤","何欣純","陳素月","游顥","黃健豪","蔡其昌","魯明哲","邱若華","廖先翔","陳雪生","徐富癸","洪孟楷","李坤城","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","黃國昌","羅智強","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","邱志偉","郭國文","林月琴","陳冠廷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1138001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請數位發展部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心、法務部、\n內政部警政署、內政部警政署刑事警察局、金融監督管理委員會就「我國打詐成效與防制」進行\n專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138001_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}