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笑死人 第三方支出這麼多家結果你拿給他所謂的能量登錄變成是整個數位部去背書這些洗錢公司部長 你先上來啦 你也算倒霉啦但是呢 我講白一點啦你既然上了你就要承受這個責任跟任務啦我跟你說 有一個可能的方式啦 本席的建議啊"},{"start":297.182,"end":320.559,"text":"面對這次業務的一個監督啊我建議說你要定期的這個查核他的財報啊必要時候派一些會計師去實地的查核簡單的講現在金管會有人在這邊啊10億上到20億之間財報金管會要管啊10億以下你們去管啊欸那個副主委你也在來來來副主委你提供經驗給一個部長一下部長主席耽誤再一分鐘時間啊"},{"start":327.386,"end":345.235,"text":"根本報告有關的第三方支付如果日平均是如果20億的話就要申請特許事業變成電資所以到底第三方支付有沒有達到相關的這個金額我們也有就是說特定的金額比較接近的"},{"start":345.815,"end":371.216,"text":"都有找會計師,要求會計師去做一些查核,看看他的金額怎麼樣,然後提供給這個數位部做參考。是,副主委你講,沒有錯。基本上20億上是電子支付,但是你們有把那個管轄權下放到10億到20億之間,來進行一個這個財報的了解嘛,對不對?是是。我覺得希望你們把這套制度給數位部,好不好?讓他查10億以下可以嗎?"},{"start":371.937,"end":372.117,"text":"法定人數不足"}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-07T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"13:56:22 - 14:02:45","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請數位發展部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心、法務部、內政部警政署、內政部警政署刑事警察局、金融監督管理委員會就「我國打詐成效與防制」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":1427,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（13時56分）主席，謝謝，請黃彥男部長。"],["主席：請黃部長。"],["黃部長彥男：郭委員好。"],["郭委員國文：部長好。部長，你知道有一個數支付洗錢425億的事情吧？"],["黃部長彥男：請再說明，數……"],["郭委員國文：數支付，一個第三方支付的業者。"],["黃部長彥男：喔，數支付、第三方支付。"],["郭委員國文：這個部分其實之前本席一直在強調，第三方支付是歸數位部所管轄，過往沒有一個比較好的行政納管的模式，然後我們用了一個所謂的能量登錄，那時候本來是要採取法遵聲明，不管怎麼樣，去年8月就開始了嘛。你們有進行查核，你們查核機制有兩種方式，一個是網路上的偵測，一個是實地的查核，在3月間的時候你們曾經查核過二次，發現了內稽內控有問題，KYC也沒有做好，沒有專職風控人員，沒有公司內部的交易監控等等，很嚴重喔，但都沒有採取任何的行政作為，也沒有進行任何的行政處罰。後來等到5月檢調搜索之後，貴部在7月9號的時候才廢止這個登錄資格。部長，在520之前當然不是您在執行嘛，在520之後，你對於此事有沒有什麼檢討？有沒有行政失靈？你自己覺得呢？都已經要納管了，第三方支付是你們業管的啊！"],["黃部長彥男：我們要加強稽核跟納管沒錯，這個我上任之後有要求。"],["郭委員國文：425億耶！而且現在第三方支付當中，總共納管家數高達68家之多耶，你有沒有想過去徹查其他家看看有沒有類似的情事發生，有沒有可能？"],["黃部長彥男：我們有稽核，我請……"],["郭委員國文：有稽核在評核？"],["林副署長俊秀：我們有稽核41家，跟委員報告。"],["郭委員國文：蛤？"],["林副署長俊秀：我們有稽核41家了。"],["郭委員國文：稽核41家，那是連68家都還沒有稽核完嘛，對不對？"],["林副署長俊秀：是，我們會選擇，我們跟執法單位有合作，就是說……"],["郭委員國文：重點不是稽核幾家，重點是稽核了什麼，你用了什麼作為，3月查核搞到7月才廢除！"],["林副署長俊秀：跟委員報告，因為查核之後……"],["郭委員國文：搞到檢調的時候，已經幫你查獲了，但你3月都已經清楚了居然還沒有廢除！這沒有檢討空間嗎？"],["林副署長俊秀：我們需要給它去補……"],["郭委員國文：這沒有行政失能嗎？"],["林副署長俊秀：最主要是還要給它……"],["郭委員國文：任由讓它去洗錢！"],["林副署長俊秀：最主要是它還要提一些改善報告給我們，我們還要……"],["郭委員國文：改善報告！我讓你看一下，它比你會改善啦！你看這家公司還加入FIDO的際組織耶，在這個FIDO國際組織會員當中，還強調它是屬於防詐神隊友，用這種方式為自己洗名聲，花錢洗名聲啦！照說這個業者基本上沒有提供任何的認證服務，它是購買者，不是提供者，它根本不需要加入FIDO，為什麼？企業形象嘛！包裝嘛！掩飾它的犯罪行為嘛！部長，像這種有沒有要把它廢掉？"],["黃部長彥男：FIDO是一個國際組織，對加入這個國際組織的管理辦法我不是很清楚，不過基本上它是沒有審核機制，就是……"],["郭委員國文：沒有，如果其實他的行為有問題，你們要注意一下這個業者。"],["黃部長彥男：我們會注意。"],["郭委員國文：好，再拉回來講，時間不多，我算給你聽，這一家大概是百分之百的洗錢公司，你看！他當初跟你報的日均交易額是3,000萬，成立了4年的時間，1年365天，加起來是438億，剛好被查到了425億！部長，我剛才跟你質詢好幾分鐘了，你說要加強，要怎麼加強法？我洗耳恭聽你的高見。"],["黃部長彥男：這個例子是一個很好的教訓，就是基本上我們在查核的時候要查得更仔細一點，然後對這種公司我們在做能量登錄這種東西要在……"],["郭委員國文：兩階段的查核，一個是網路監測，你有沒有達到實質的效果；二來是實地的調查，你有沒有達到一定的成效，是不是？"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["郭委員國文：笑死人！第三方支付這麼多家，結果你拿給它所謂的能量登錄變成是整個數位部去幫這些洗錢公司背書！部長，你現在上任也算倒楣，但是我講白一點，你既然上來了，就要承受這個責任跟任務。我跟你說，有一個可能的方式，這是本席的建議，在面對這些業務的監督，我建議你要定期的查核它的財報，在必要時派一些會計師去實地的查核，簡單的講，現在金管會也有人在這邊，對10億以上到20億之間的財報金管會要管，如果是10億以下，就是你們去管。副主委，你提供經驗給部長一下。不好意思，主席，我再耽誤1分鐘的時間。"],["邱副主任委員淑貞：跟委員報告，有關第三方支付，如果日平均是20億的話，就要申請特許事業，變成電支。"],["郭委員國文：對，電子支付。"],["邱副主任委員淑貞：所以到底第三方支付有沒有達到相關的金額，我們也有對特定的、金額比較接近的……"],["郭委員國文：你們有一個機制。"],["邱副主任委員淑貞：都有找會計師，要求會計師去做一些查核，看看它的金額怎麼樣，然後提供給數位部做參考。"],["郭委員國文：是，副主委，你講的沒有錯，基本上，20億以上是電子支付，但是你們有把那個管轄權下放到10億到20億之間來進行財報的了解，對不對？"],["邱副主任委員淑貞：是。"],["郭委員國文：我就是希望你把這套制度給數位部，好不好？"],["邱副主任委員淑貞：是。"],["郭委員國文：讓他查10億以下，可以嗎？部長，可以嗎？黃部長，可以嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：再跟金管會……"],["郭委員國文：可以嗎？他有經驗提供給你，這樣可以嗎？好不好？"],["黃部長彥男：我們再跟金管會合作。"],["郭委員國文：OK，謝謝部長。"],["主席：好，謝謝郭委員。","接下來有請鄭正鈐委員。鄭正鈐，鄭正鈐委員不在。","李柏毅委員。李柏毅，李柏毅委員不在。","林楚茵委員。林楚茵，林楚茵委員不在。","接下來有請林月琴委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":88,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-4","speakers":["魯明哲","林國成","許智傑","林俊憲","林沛祥","李昆澤","何欣純","陳素月","游顥","黃健豪","蔡其昌","魯明哲","邱若華","廖先翔","陳雪生","徐富癸","洪孟楷","李坤城","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","黃國昌","羅智強","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","邱志偉","郭國文","林月琴","陳冠廷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1138001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請數位發展部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心、法務部、\n內政部警政署、內政部警政署刑事警察局、金融監督管理委員會就「我國打詐成效與防制」進行\n專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138001_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}