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壞了因此採購人員選擇不簽收但是這個商家也不寄一包沒有問題的米過來現在就這樣在這邊請問院長是建議這個採購單位的採購人員睜一隻眼閉一隻眼把這包有問題的米收下來還是請這個商家的老闆寄一包新的過來"},{"start":69.406,"end":81.443,"text":"當然買賣一種契約在民法上的契約雙方尤其是出賣人這一方他必須要有對瑕疵擔保的責任任何的瑕疵都應該要做適當的這個回復原狀或是彌補"},{"start":84.648,"end":110.635,"text":"我想這個是法律上的要求一個東西它有一個完整性不能說可能有大部分是好的少部分有問題的那就要硬要人家吞進去對不對那我想院長應該非常清楚我舉這個例子我就是要提我們的總預算案那我們這一次的總預算案您認為是立法院二一杯葛嗎我覺得立法院是對行政院所"},{"start":113.127,"end":141.161,"text":"提出的理由還不甚了解我們希望之後繼續的溝通所以您到過了這麼久的時間院長還不了解我們立法院可能包括國民黨民進黨抱歉國民黨民眾黨還有無黨籍的委員沒有將總預算賦為的原因您還沒有到現在為止沒有來了解我是說大院不了解行政院這是編列預算的原因所以我們會繼續溝通是立法院不了解行政院編列的原因"},{"start":144.117,"end":171.364,"text":"立法院的立場院長應該非常清楚主要有三點一個法律案一個法律案的問題就是原住民的進法補償條例這個東西是法律案還有兩個立法院的主決議那就是健保點值每點0.9還有另外一個是公糧收購價的問題這兩個是立法院的主決議我們先撇開立法院的主決議不講立法院的主決議畢竟不是法律"},{"start":171.854,"end":179.824,"text":"那針對這個立法院通過的中華民國的法律那立法院好像有一些疑義是不是"},{"start":180.649,"end":202.17,"text":"是的委員我們應該了解如果用一個法律就要求行政院編足預算將來立法院通過了更多更多的法律行政院就必須編列更多更多的預算這個就打破了行政院制定編列預算立法院審議預算的這樣常規也是憲法賦予兩院共同的學生"},{"start":205.473,"end":206.253,"text":"我們行政院114年編列的總預算"},{"start":231.226,"end":248.585,"text":"所編列的每一塊錢都是立法院通過的法律我們行政院依照這個法律來編列總預算他才有他的釋法性但是今天我們行政院似乎特別的針對了原住民進法補償條例的這條法律"},{"start":251.357,"end":260.526,"text":"好像選擇性的執法是不是法律的制定跟完成他可以請行政院去執行某一個政策這個政策如何執行時間計畫預算應該讓行政院來處理委員"},{"start":266.294,"end":280.646,"text":"大院是監督阿所以院長認為說可能這6萬塊太急了明年來不及編如果一個計畫預算都是由立法院提出立法院本身再來監督那就違反了兩院如果說院長認為這個美工請6萬塊"},{"start":283.348,"end":308.463,"text":"可能我們法律案通過 總統公布之後的時候我們的總預算已經變得差不多了我們很難去挪我們以後想辦法去怎麼把它補足包括您剛剛可能有些人說用基金階制印往後年度可能再把它補足等等的立法院是這樣的心態嗎還是說認為只要行政院通過了法律只要跟這個單價跟金額有關的都不應該"},{"start":310.029,"end":318.288,"text":"我說法律本身可以要求行政院執行某一種政策但是這個政策的執行的過程行政院必須提出整套的計畫"},{"start":319.261,"end":345.143,"text":"他必須也衡量所有部會在編列預算以國家政策推動的整體性要走我就跟部長報告除了原住民進法補償條例還有其他許多的法律立法院通過的法律都有在法律中明定政府應該編列的法律預算的金額"},{"start":346.204,"end":347.605,"text":"法律總統公布就是法律了"},{"start":370.334,"end":379.04,"text":"還有尊不尊守的問題阿沒有問題我們來看一下其他立法院通過的法律我們到下一張這個就剛剛講的啦下一張這個可能主決議啦 總統講的話也不是法律啦或許挑不了這個民眾自有公平啦沒關係下一張好 這個也是立法院通過的一個法律嘛有機農業獎勵補助辦法跟"},{"start":399.795,"end":407.018,"text":"原住民進法補償條例 非常的類似有面積單位每公頃有錢6萬、24萬、8萬請問一下有進農業獎勵及補貼辦法 行政院有沒有編組"},{"start":412.79,"end":437.858,"text":"我覺得這個要經過行政立法兩院之間來協調就某一個政策同意在一定的時程或編築一定的預算像我們這樣來執行在進法補償這件事情顯然不是如此我們在草野協商的過程當中提出說如果編到4萬塊行政院是可以接受的但是在那個過程就沒有辦法這樣執行如果每個法律都是這樣子"},{"start":439.638,"end":464.651,"text":"這樣對行政院的壓力是等於形成對國人國家財務紀律最大的壓力所以依照院長的講法我們的政府面對法律可以選擇性的一個執行不是選擇性我們行政院面對中華民國的法律可以看得順眼的就執行看不順眼的我就不遵守嗎委員請不要用選擇性這兩個字如果你用選擇性我就在說不要用壓迫性"},{"start":466.752,"end":487.291,"text":"這是法律阿這是法律吧這是立法院通過的法律總統頒布吧他是一個他目前為止不是一個違憲的法律吧我們不要用這個字眼這是互相協調的如果協調到一個我們認為財政的負擔底下可以而且他符合"},{"start":487.911,"end":510.969,"text":"循序漸進的增加可以從3萬塊一下跳到6萬塊哪一個國家的補貼政策是有這樣的目前我們的行政院到目前為止沒有釋出善意的來跟立法會公佈說就像我剛剛一開始講的或許總統頒布的時候我們行政院明年的總預算已經編的差不多了我們很難去挪這個可能20多億的一個10多億20多億的預算進來"},{"start":512.31,"end":522.462,"text":"那可以來跟我們立法院協商說明年度或許很難上路我們用其他辦法來補足那往後年度我們逐漸把它上路那目前的情況就是將在這邊阿"},{"start":524.039,"end":545.271,"text":"我們行政院就什麼都不做啊整天在那邊這個錢只有好啦不要講一些政治性的攻擊的話啦那目前就是兩院沒有實際溝通嘛不要認為這個錢少這個代表的意義就是兩院之間有沒有遵照整個預算編列制定跟審議的兩院的權力分立來看"},{"start":545.931,"end":558.947,"text":"我們在乎的是我們的行政院有沒有依法編列預算所以以後任何立法院通過的法律沒有經過行政院的認可這個法律就沒有辦法生效嗎以後立法院沒有經過"},{"start":566.441,"end":589.959,"text":"協商 照院長講的立法院通過的法律在通過前沒有跟立法院協商獲得共識 這個法律就不用生效嗎從此以往所有的法律都是兩院協商過的哇 這個立法院太侵權了吧沒有行政院同意的 沒有經過協商行政院認可的法律"},{"start":591.124,"end":608.151,"text":"行政院可以不遵守立法院飛掉了啦難怪之前很多人說立法院是行政院的立法局立法院經過了法律居然要行政院同意有什麼奇怪的道理啊協商是立法院內部草野的協商協商是一個過程啊協商的結果是要順行政院的意嗎"},{"start":609.6,"end":629.299,"text":"協商我們希望提出我們對整個的規劃而不是用這種方式就一定要你增加多少預算如果今天原住民來一次客家來一次婦女來一次勞動來一次教師來一次警察來一次您認為政府承受得了嗎我們都必須學習執政將來有一天或許您的努力以後你會站在這個地方你就知道國家不是這樣在經營的"},{"start":631.189,"end":655.857,"text":"不過不想執政的政黨他也許可以這樣做如果你也想執政你就必須學習執政的經驗跟執政的過程我執政之後大家可能上任的第一天就是克遵中華民國的憲法遵守中華民國的法律我講這個是新政部門最基本最基本的還有不浪費公帑當然不浪費公帑啊所以我們對所有的預算都會這個原住民進發補償條例對院長是這個浪費公帑是不是"},{"start":659.458,"end":662.482,"text":"這是違反國家財政紀律違反國家財政紀律的編法就是讓我們在這種狀況底下去施衡整個預算的編列"},{"start":675.316,"end":695.192,"text":"好 下一頁這個也是啦 舉個例啦就是剛剛補充一下啦 這個也是舉個例啦交通部加速擴大吸引國際公安課 獎助辦法 境外獎勵每人五千啦 也明訂啦 明訂金額啦下一頁老農津貼也一樣啦 明訂金額啦那可能院長認為說 這個沒有經過"},{"start":698.986,"end":724.83,"text":"這個有經過行政院的同意當時都經過很好的協商立法院裡面的共識、兩院的共識所以委員不在這裡,不知道那個時候立法院的文化就是這樣子所以立法院隨便,立法委員提增加國家可能如果說立法院通過委員提的這個法律案這會增加行政院預算的話可能都是不太恰當的嘛,是不是不太恰當的"},{"start":726.439,"end":748.705,"text":"委員可以提一個法案希望行政院做哪些政策但這個政策如何執行 計畫 預算都要行政院來編列編列完之後 執行完之後 接受委員的監督 這樣才是兩院的制衡嘛 check and balance但是我們的總統好像不是這麼認為"},{"start":750.319,"end":774.279,"text":"民國97年3月14號國民年金法部份台灣修正法案提案人柯建銘、戴清德、葉怡菁第52條之一新增項目新增項目這個分完這是生育給付特別規定就是可能在國民年金在生育的部分特別增加了一些預算增加預算的部分就是一定是國家"},{"start":775.293,"end":800.331,"text":"要增編預算在院長的眼裡這可能有點違法兩院的怨氣後來有沒有通過那下一案請問委員後來有沒有通過確定獎勵再生能源發電條例這個也是提案人非常多藍綠都有藍綠都有包括我們的賴清德總統這個也是每電收購多少元也是要求國家增編預算後來有沒有通過"},{"start":801.192,"end":828.445,"text":"財政人員條例現在不是被罵得很慘嗎?有沒有通過財政人員條例應該有,現在在上路吧那就是行政兩位互相,兩位協調的結果剛剛院長說我們立法委員提的預算增加國家編列的預算剛剛院長說我們立法委員提的法律案如果會增加國家預算的話這個東西可能不太恰當"},{"start":829.125,"end":845.975,"text":"我都說要經過兩院的協調才可以總統都一直在這麼做經常斷了我一句話,這樣不好,這樣會造成大家的誤會這個金額更高了,97年7月8日當然是民主進步黨立法院黨團提案,但這時候可能賴清德總統是黨團幹部,一樣有提案"},{"start":852.674,"end":867.509,"text":"可能那時候有一些金融風暴那希望政府增編一些經費政府擴大公共投資經費上限583億元那其中也有一些個人的細項包括本人4000元撫養親屬美人4000元也是有一個預算的規模"},{"start":871.272,"end":876.699,"text":"委員我們這一代政治人物不要用故意的方式來誤解大家我沒有說立法院不能提這個案"},{"start":888.394,"end":889.335,"text":"總預算將局賴統統目前神隱除了在媒體上面"},{"start":910.624,"end":928.895,"text":"發一些言打打嘴砲嘴在野糖之外用情緒勒索治水預算設服預算綁架衛浴法邊的預算之外總統好像有一些正事沒做啦中華民國憲法第44條這個院與院之間的紛爭除本憲法規定外的召集各位院長委員情緒性的發言解決不了實質問題"},{"start":936.994,"end":943.286,"text":"好,謝謝廖委員下一位我們請葉元之委員質詢"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:33:09+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T09:33:12.341250+08:00","text":"謝謝副院長，一樣邀請我們的卓院長。","quality":0.067},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-08T09:33:12.341250+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T09:33:15.682500+08:00","text":"有請卓院長備詢。","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T09:33:15.682500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T09:33:19.023750+08:00","text":"廖委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:33:19.023750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T09:33:22.365000+08:00","text":"院長好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:33:22.365000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:34:16.451000+08:00","text":"院長，最近我收到了一個糾紛案，有一個政府單位採購了一包米，這個政府單位收到的時候發現這包米裡面有兩粒米黑了、壞了，因此採購人員選擇不簽收，但是這個商家也不寄一包沒有問題的米過來，現在就僵在這邊，請問院長是建議這個採購單位的採購人員睜一隻眼閉一隻眼，把這包有問題的米收下來，還是要請這個商家的老闆寄一包新的過來？","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T09:34:18.686000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:34:34.848000+08:00","text":"買賣是一種在民法上的契約，雙方中出賣人的這一方必須要有對瑕疵擔保的責任，任何的瑕疵都應該要做適當地回復原狀或者是彌補，我想這個是法律上的要求。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:34:34.988000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:34:44.291000+08:00","text":"對，一個東西有其完整性，不能因為大部分是好的，少部分有問題就硬要人家吞進去，對不對？","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:34:44.651000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:34:48.672000+08:00","text":"我想院長應該非常清楚，我舉這個例子就是要提我們的總預算案。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:34:49.692000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:34:57.834000+08:00","text":"我們這一次的總預算案沒有付委，您認為是立法院惡意杯葛嗎？","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T09:34:57.834000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:35:05.149000+08:00","text":"我覺得立法院是對行政院所提出的理由還不甚瞭解，我們希望做繼續的溝通。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:35:06.209000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:35:21.216000+08:00","text":"所以過了這麼久的時間，院長還不瞭解我們立法院，包括國民黨、民眾黨，還有無黨籍的委員，沒有將總預算案付委的原因，您到現在為止沒有來瞭解？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T09:35:22.157000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:35:27.219000+08:00","text":"我是說大院不瞭解行政院這次編列預算的原因，所以我們會繼續溝通。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:35:27.399000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:35:30.141000+08:00","text":"是立法院不瞭解行政院編列的原因，好。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:35:33.117000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:35:56.023000+08:00","text":"立法院的立場，院長應該非常清楚，主要有三點，一個法律案的問題就是原住民的禁伐補償條例，這個東西是法律案，還有兩個立法院的主決議，就是健保點值每點0.9，另外一個是公糧收購價的問題，這兩個是立法院的主決議。","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:35:56.023000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:36:08.804000+08:00","text":"好，我們先撇開立法院的主決議不講，立法院的主決議畢竟不是法律，針對這個立法院通過的中華民國的法律，行政院好像有一些疑義，是不是？","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T09:36:09.649000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:36:30.910000+08:00","text":"是的，委員，我們也應該瞭解，如果用一個法律，就要求行政院編足預算，將來立法院通過了更多更多的法律，行政院就必須編列更多更多的預算，這個就打破了行政院制定編列預算、立法院審議預算這樣的常規，這個也是憲法賦予兩院共同的權責……","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:36:30.910000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T09:36:33.051500+08:00","text":"所以您上次跟邱鎮軍委員回應的就是一樣，就是立法院如果一直修改法律的話，可能預算你們就無法掌握，會一直膨脹下去，你們擔心的是這一點，我想請問一下，我們行政院這一次編列的114年總預算有沒有任何一塊錢不是依照中華民國的法律去編列的？","quality":0.067},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T09:36:33.051500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T09:36:35.193000+08:00","text":"我們都要依法編列。","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:36:35.193000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:37:22.379000+08:00","text":"對，行政院114年的總預算所編列的每一塊錢都是依照立法院通過的法律，行政院依照這個法律來編列總預算，它才有它的適法性，但是今天我們行政院似乎特別針對原住民禁伐補償條例的這條法律，好像選擇性的執法，是不是？","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T09:37:22.419000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:37:29.486000+08:00","text":"法律制定完成，可以請行政院去執行某一個政策，但是這個政策如何執行、時間、計畫、預算應該讓行政院來處理。","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T09:37:29.506000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:37:36.135000+08:00","text":"委員，大院是監督，如果一個計畫……","quality":0.538},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:37:36.495000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:37:41.259000+08:00","text":"所以院長認為這6萬元可能太急了，明年來不及編，是嗎？","quality":0.773},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T09:37:41.259000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:37:47.764000+08:00","text":"如果一個計畫、預算都是由立法院提出，立法院本身再來監督，那就違反了兩院……","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:37:47.764000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T09:37:48.764000+08:00","text":"沒關係！","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:37:48.225000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:38:10.379000+08:00","text":"如果院長認為每公頃6萬塊的法律案通過、總統公布的時候，我們的總預算已經編得差不多了，我們很難去挪，我們以後想辦法去怎麼把它補足，包括有些人說用基金先來支應，往後年度再把它補足等等的，行政院是這樣的心態嗎？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:38:10.379000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:38:17.463000+08:00","text":"還是認為只要立法院通過的法律跟單價、跟金額有關的都不應該？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T09:38:19.029000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:38:34.987000+08:00","text":"我說法律本身可以要求行政院執行某一種政策，但是這個政策執行的過程，行政院必須提出整套的計畫，它也必須衡量所有部會在編列預算，以及國家政策推動的整體性要走……","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:38:35.467000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:38:36.388000+08:00","text":"好，我就跟部長報告……","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T09:38:36.388000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T09:38:40.291000+08:00","text":"像這一次，從3萬到6萬這樣的調整……","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:38:40.291000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:38:54.143000+08:00","text":"除了原住民禁伐補償條例，還有其他許多的法律，立法院通過的法律都有在法律中明定政府應該編列的法定預算金額、單位，非常多，有沒有……","quality":0.807},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T09:38:54.143000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T09:38:55.143000+08:00","text":"那個都必須經過兩院協商……","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:38:55.143000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T09:38:56.143000+08:00","text":"國家的法律還有有沒有經過協商、人民要不要遵守的問題啊！","quality":0.08},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T09:38:56.143000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T09:38:57.143000+08:00","text":"當然，委員，您到立法院不久……","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:38:57.143000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T09:38:58.143000+08:00","text":"以後沒有經過協商通過的法律，人民可以不遵守嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T09:38:58.143000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T09:38:59.143000+08:00","text":"所謂協商不是形式上的協商，是我們對共同推動的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:38:56.204000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:39:20.155000+08:00","text":"法律經總統公布就是法律，還有遵不遵守的問題啊！","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T09:39:20.155000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T09:39:21.155000+08:00","text":"我們在禁伐補償的過程當中，有提出不要一次漲到6萬，但不被大院所接受，我們無法承受。","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:39:20.235000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:39:22.897000+08:00","text":"好，沒關係，我們來看其他相關立法院通過的法律。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:39:23.637000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:39:23.737000+08:00","text":"這個就剛剛講的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:39:24.058000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:39:25.599000+08:00","text":"這個是主決議，總統講的話也不是法律，或許跳票，民眾自有公評，沒關係！","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:39:26.059000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:39:56.018000+08:00","text":"這個也是立法院通過的一個法律，有機農業獎勵補助辦法，跟原住民禁伐補償條例非常的類似，有面積單位──每公頃，有錢──6萬、24萬、8萬，我請問一下，有機農業獎勵及補貼辦法行政院有沒有編足？","quality":0.887},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T09:40:01.790000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:40:12.373000+08:00","text":"我覺得這個要編必須經過行政、立法兩院之間來協調，就某一個政策同意在一定的時程或編足一定的預算，這樣我們當然能執行。","quality":0.83},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T09:40:12.893000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:40:24.837000+08:00","text":"在禁伐補償這一件事情顯然不是如此，我們在朝野協商的過程當中提出，如果編到4萬塊，行政院是可以接受的，但是在那個過程就沒有辦法這樣執行。","quality":0.934},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T09:40:25.557000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:40:33.421000+08:00","text":"如果每個法律都是這樣子，這樣對行政院的壓力等於形成對國人、國家財務紀律最大的壓力啊！","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:40:34.381000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:40:40.004000+08:00","text":"依照院長的講法，我們的政府面對法律可以選擇性的執行？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T09:40:40.224000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:40:40.784000+08:00","text":"不是選擇性，不要用「選擇性」……","quality":0.455},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:40:41.305000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:40:49.669000+08:00","text":"我們行政院面對中華民國的法律，可以看得順眼的就執行，看不順眼的就不遵守嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T09:40:49.669000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:40:53.631000+08:00","text":"委員，請不要用「選擇性」這幾個字，如果你用選擇性，我就要說不要用壓迫性。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:40:55.752000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:40:56.132000+08:00","text":"這是法律啊！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:40:56.913000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:40:58.214000+08:00","text":"這是法律吧？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T09:40:58.214000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T09:40:59.214000+08:00","text":"不是用壓迫的，我覺得這是壓迫性，一定要接受，不接受不行……","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:40:58.975000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:41:01.517000+08:00","text":"這是立法院通過的法律，總統頒布……","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T09:41:01.517000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T09:41:04.760000+08:00","text":"這樣不好，委員，不要用選擇性……","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:41:04.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:41:06.722000+08:00","text":"目前為止，它不是一個違憲的法律吧？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T09:41:06.882000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:41:18.613000+08:00","text":"我也不要用這個字眼，我們不要用這個字眼，這是互相協調的，如果協調到一個我們認為財政可以負擔，而且它符合循序漸進的增加，可以。","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T09:41:20.114000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:41:23.697000+08:00","text":"但從3萬塊一下跳到6萬塊，哪一個國家的補貼政策是這樣子？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:41:23.697000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T09:41:24.697000+08:00","text":"可以啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:41:24.357000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:41:54.320000+08:00","text":"但我們的行政院到目前為止沒有釋出善意的來跟立法院溝通，就像我剛剛一開始講的，或許總統頒布的時候，行政院明年的總預算已經編得差不多了，我們很難去挪這個可能十多億、二十多億的預算進來，那可以來跟我們立法院協商，說明年度或許很難上路，我們用其他辦法來補足，往後年度我們逐漸把它上路，但目前的情況就是僵在這邊，行政院就什麼都不做啊！","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:41:54.880000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:41:58.682000+08:00","text":"整天在那邊透過……好啦！","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:41:58.962000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:42:02.084000+08:00","text":"我不要講一些政治性的攻擊的話，但目前就是兩院沒有溝通……","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T09:42:03.745000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:42:14.251000+08:00","text":"這個錢的差距是二十幾億，不要認為這個錢少，這個代表的意義就是兩院之間有沒有遵照整個預算編列、制定跟審議的兩院的權力分立來看。","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:42:14.931000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:42:19.757000+08:00","text":"我們在乎的是我們的行政院有沒有依法編列預算……","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T09:42:19.757000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T09:42:20.757000+08:00","text":"大院常常提醒我們一塊錢都不能浪費，不是錢多錢少的問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:42:20.738000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:42:27.086000+08:00","text":"所以以後任何立法院通過的法律，沒有經過行政院的認可，這個法律就沒有辦法生效嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T09:42:27.086000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T09:42:37.163000+08:00","text":"請委員不要用「認可」兩個字，是協商、協調的過程，我很重視這個。","quality":0.08},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:42:37.163000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:42:46.750000+08:00","text":"照院長講的，以後立法院通過的法律，在通過前沒有跟行政院協商獲得共識，這個法律就不用生效嗎？","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T09:42:46.750000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:42:49.272000+08:00","text":"從此以往，所有的法律都是兩院協商過的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:42:50.393000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:42:52.454000+08:00","text":"哇，這個行政院太侵權了吧！","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:42:56.117000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:43:03.725000+08:00","text":"沒有經過協商、行政院認可的法律，行政院可以不遵守，立法院廢掉好了啦！","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:43:03.906000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:43:11.168000+08:00","text":"難怪之前很多人說立法院是行政院的立法局，立法院通過的法律居然要行政院同意，這是什麼奇怪的道理啊！","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T09:43:11.569000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:43:13.789000+08:00","text":"委員不要生氣，協商是立法院內部朝野協商。","quality":0.611},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:43:14.210000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:43:17.151000+08:00","text":"協商是一個過程，協商的結果是要順行政院的意嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T09:43:18.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:43:24.086000+08:00","text":"協商時我們希望提出我們對整個的規劃，而不是用這種方式，就一定要你增加多少預算。","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T09:43:24.506000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:43:32.193000+08:00","text":"如果今天原住民來一次、客家來一次、婦女來一次、勞動來一次、教師來一次、警察來一次，您認為政府承受得了嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T09:43:32.193000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:43:38.279000+08:00","text":"我們都必須學習執政，將來有一天或許經過你的努力以後你會站在這個地方，你就知道國家不是這樣在經營的。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T09:43:40.409000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:43:45.911000+08:00","text":"如果不想執政的政黨，它也許可以這樣做，如果你也想執政，你就必須學習執政的經驗跟執政的過程。","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:43:45.991000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:43:58.755000+08:00","text":"我執政之後，可能上任的第一天就是要恪遵中華民國的憲法，遵守中華民國的法律，我講這個是行政部門最基本、最基本的責任。","quality":0.904},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T09:43:59.015000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:44:00.596000+08:00","text":"對，還有不浪費公帑。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:44:00.596000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:44:01.396000+08:00","text":"當然不浪費公帑。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T09:44:01.576000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:44:03.516000+08:00","text":"所以我們對所有的預算都會錙銖必較。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:44:03.516000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:44:04.837000+08:00","text":"所以原住民禁伐補償條例對院長來說是浪費公帑是不是？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:44:04.837000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T09:44:08.458000+08:00","text":"應該不是啦？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T09:44:08.458000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:44:09.079000+08:00","text":"這是違反國家財政紀律……","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:44:09.079000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T09:44:10.079000+08:00","text":"我想應該是口誤，院長應該不希望這個當新聞標題啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T09:44:09.239000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:44:11.462000+08:00","text":"不是，違反國家財政紀律的編法，就是讓我們在這種狀況底下失衡整個預算的編列。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:44:25.117000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:44:49.047000+08:00","text":"下一頁是我舉個例，補充一下剛剛的部分，交通部加速擴大吸引國際觀光客獎助辦法，境外獎勵每人5,000元，也明定金額，老農津貼也一樣明定金額，可能院長認為這個有經過行政院的同意，所以才能上路。","quality":0.768},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T09:44:49.468000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:44:55.593000+08:00","text":"當時都經過很好的協商，是立法院裡面的共識、兩院的共識。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:44:55.593000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T09:44:56.593000+08:00","text":"立法院通過的東西要行政院同意啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T09:44:55.793000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:44:58.696000+08:00","text":"委員那時候不在這裡，不知道那個時候立法院的文化就是這樣子。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:44:58.876000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:45:12.949000+08:00","text":"所以如果立法院通過委員提的法律案會增加行政院預算的話，可能都是不太恰當的，是不是？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T09:45:12.949000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T09:45:14.194000+08:00","text":"這是違反財政紀律，行政院編定……","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:45:14.194000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T09:45:15.439000+08:00","text":"立委提出增加國家預算的都違反紀律？","quality":0.062},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T09:45:15.439000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:45:35.384000+08:00","text":"我再強調一次，委員可以提一個法案希望行政院做哪些政策，但這個政策要如何執行，其計畫、預算都要行政院來編列，編列完、執行完之後，再接受委員的監督，這才是兩院的制衡、check and balance。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:45:35.744000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:46:08.516000+08:00","text":"院長，我懂、我懂、我懂，但是我們的總統好像不這麼認為，民國97年3月14日國民年金法部分條文修正草案，提案人柯建銘、賴清德、葉宜津，針對第五十二條之一新增項目，這個是分娩生育給付特別規定，可能是在國民年金中生育的部分特別增加了一些預算，這個增加預算的部分就一定是國家要增編預算，在院長的眼裡，這個可能有點違反兩院院際的……","quality":0.779},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T09:46:08.896000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:46:10.137000+08:00","text":"後來有沒有通過？","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:46:10.958000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:46:11.338000+08:00","text":"下一案。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T09:46:12.079000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:46:13.120000+08:00","text":"請問委員，後來有沒有通過？","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:46:13.120000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:46:28.151000+08:00","text":"制定獎勵再生能源發電條例，這個提案人也非常多，藍綠都有，包括我們的賴清德總統，這個也是每度電收購多少元，也是要求國家增編預算來買電。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T09:46:28.951000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:46:29.331000+08:00","text":"後來有沒有通過？","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:46:30.752000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:46:33.794000+08:00","text":"再生能源條例現在不是被罵得很慘嗎？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T09:46:33.794000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:46:35.334000+08:00","text":"有沒有通過？","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:46:35.895000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:46:37.235000+08:00","text":"再生能源條例應該有，現在上路了吧？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T09:46:37.235000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T09:46:38.235000+08:00","text":"有沒有通過？","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:46:38.235000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T09:46:39.235000+08:00","text":"買電不就是用這個。","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T09:46:38.776000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:46:41.437000+08:00","text":"那就是行政兩院協調的結果……","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:46:51.682000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:46:57.445000+08:00","text":"可是剛剛院長說，我們立法委員提的法律案如果會增加國家預算的話，這個東西可能就不太恰當。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T09:46:58.125000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:47:00.767000+08:00","text":"我是說要經過兩院的協調才可以。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:47:01.447000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:47:02.127000+08:00","text":"但總統都一直在這麼做啊！","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:47:02.127000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T09:47:03.127000+08:00","text":"下一張……","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T09:47:02.888000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:47:07.030000+08:00","text":"委員經常斷了我一句話，這樣不好，這樣會造成大家的誤會。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:47:07.030000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:47:07.570000+08:00","text":"這個金額更高！","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:47:08.471000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:47:36.489000+08:00","text":"97年7月8日，當然這是民主進步黨立法院黨團提案的，但這時候可能我們的賴清德總統是黨團幹部，一樣有提案，可能那時候有一些金融風暴，希望政府增編一些經費，要政府擴大公共投資，經費上限583億元，其中也有一些個人的細項，包括本人4,000元，扶養親屬每人4,000元，也是有一個預算的規模跟一個單價的問題，但在院長的眼裡好像都不是那麼的恰當……","quality":0.752},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T09:47:36.489000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T09:47:38.380500+08:00","text":"委員，你這樣是故意……","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:47:38.380500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T09:47:40.272000+08:00","text":"如果要通過，都要行政院同意嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T09:47:40.272000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:47:45.679000+08:00","text":"委員，我們這一代政治人物不要故意用這種方式來誤解大家，我沒有說立法院不能提這個案，而是提案的過程要經過立法院內部的協調、兩院的協調，這樣才能夠形成一個有效的法律來進行。","quality":0.449},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:47:45.679000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T09:47:48.022000+08:00","text":"沒關係，院長論述得也非常清楚了，現在就是有一點意見不一致的情況。","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:47:48.022000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T09:47:50.365000+08:00","text":"下一張。","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T09:47:50.365000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T09:47:52.708000+08:00","text":"不是，你沒有聽到我……故意忽略我的重點。","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:47:52.708000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T09:47:55.051000+08:00","text":"沒關係，我知道我們的立場有點不一樣，我都有聽到。","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T09:47:55.051000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T09:47:57.394000+08:00","text":"你故意忽略我的重點，這樣很不好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:47:57.394000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:48:28.550000+08:00","text":"總預算僵局，賴總統目前神隱，除了在媒體上面發一些言、打打嘴炮嘴在野黨、用情緒勒索拿治水預算、社福預算綁架未依法編列預算之外，總統好像有一些正事沒做啦！","quality":0.838},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:48:29.750000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:48:35.474000+08:00","text":"中華民國憲法第四十四條規定，院與院之間的紛爭，除本憲法有規定外，得召集各院院長會商……","quality":0.737},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T09:48:35.474000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:48:37.895000+08:00","text":"委員，情緒性的發言解決不了實質問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:48:37.895000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T09:48:41.122333+08:00","text":"總統好像沒有做該做的事情。","quality":0.083},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T09:48:41.122333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T09:48:44.349667+08:00","text":"委員，你這種情緒性的發言……","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員先翔","start":"2024-10-08T09:48:44.349667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T09:48:47.577000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-08T09:48:47.577000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:48:49.561000+08:00","text":"謝謝廖委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-08T09:48:49.561000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T09:48:52.286000+08:00","text":"下一位請葉元之委員質詢。","quality":1}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-08T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"09:33:09 - 09:48:54","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","gazette":{"lineno":87,"blocks":[["廖委員先翔：（9時33分）謝謝副院長，一樣邀請我們的卓院長。"],["主席：有請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：廖委員好。"],["廖委員先翔：院長好。院長，最近我收到了一個糾紛案，有一個政府單位採購了一包米，這個政府單位收到的時候發現這包米裡面有兩粒米黑了、壞了，因此採購人員選擇不簽收，但是這個商家也不寄一包沒有問題的米過來，現在就僵在這邊，請問院長是建議這個採購單位的採購人員睜一隻眼閉一隻眼，把這包有問題的米收下來，還是要請這個商家的老闆寄一包新的過來？"],["卓院長榮泰：買賣是一種在民法上的契約，雙方中出賣人的這一方必須要有對瑕疵擔保的責任，任何的瑕疵都應該要做適當地回復原狀或者是彌補，我想這個是法律上的要求。"],["廖委員先翔：對，一個東西有其完整性，不能因為大部分是好的，少部分有問題就硬要人家吞進去，對不對？","我想院長應該非常清楚，我舉這個例子就是要提我們的總預算案。我們這一次的總預算案沒有付委，您認為是立法院惡意杯葛嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我覺得立法院是對行政院所提出的理由還不甚瞭解，我們希望做繼續的溝通。"],["廖委員先翔：所以過了這麼久的時間，院長還不瞭解我們立法院，包括國民黨、民眾黨，還有無黨籍的委員，沒有將總預算案付委的原因，您到現在為止沒有來瞭解？"],["卓院長榮泰：我是說大院不瞭解行政院這次編列預算的原因，所以我們會繼續溝通。"],["廖委員先翔：是立法院不瞭解行政院編列的原因，好。立法院的立場，院長應該非常清楚，主要有三點，一個法律案的問題就是原住民的禁伐補償條例，這個東西是法律案，還有兩個立法院的主決議，就是健保點值每點0.9，另外一個是公糧收購價的問題，這兩個是立法院的主決議。好，我們先撇開立法院的主決議不講，立法院的主決議畢竟不是法律，針對這個立法院通過的中華民國的法律，行政院好像有一些疑義，是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的，委員，我們也應該瞭解，如果用一個法律，就要求行政院編足預算，將來立法院通過了更多更多的法律，行政院就必須編列更多更多的預算，這個就打破了行政院制定編列預算、立法院審議預算這樣的常規，這個也是憲法賦予兩院共同的權責……"],["廖委員先翔：所以您上次跟邱鎮軍委員回應的就是一樣，就是立法院如果一直修改法律的話，可能預算你們就無法掌握，會一直膨脹下去，你們擔心的是這一點，我想請問一下，我們行政院這一次編列的114年總預算有沒有任何一塊錢不是依照中華民國的法律去編列的？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們都要依法編列。"],["廖委員先翔：對，行政院114年的總預算所編列的每一塊錢都是依照立法院通過的法律，行政院依照這個法律來編列總預算，它才有它的適法性，但是今天我們行政院似乎特別針對原住民禁伐補償條例的這條法律，好像選擇性的執法，是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：法律制定完成，可以請行政院去執行某一個政策，但是這個政策如何執行、時間、計畫、預算應該讓行政院來處理。委員，大院是監督，如果一個計畫……"],["廖委員先翔：所以院長認為這6萬元可能太急了，明年來不及編，是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果一個計畫、預算都是由立法院提出，立法院本身再來監督，那就違反了兩院……"],["廖委員先翔：沒關係！如果院長認為每公頃6萬塊的法律案通過、總統公布的時候，我們的總預算已經編得差不多了，我們很難去挪，我們以後想辦法去怎麼把它補足，包括有些人說用基金先來支應，往後年度再把它補足等等的，行政院是這樣的心態嗎？還是認為只要立法院通過的法律跟單價、跟金額有關的都不應該？"],["卓院長榮泰：我說法律本身可以要求行政院執行某一種政策，但是這個政策執行的過程，行政院必須提出整套的計畫，它也必須衡量所有部會在編列預算，以及國家政策推動的整體性要走……"],["廖委員先翔：好，我就跟部長報告……"],["卓院長榮泰：像這一次，從3萬到6萬這樣的調整……"],["廖委員先翔：除了原住民禁伐補償條例，還有其他許多的法律，立法院通過的法律都有在法律中明定政府應該編列的法定預算金額、單位，非常多，有沒有……"],["卓院長榮泰：那個都必須經過兩院協商……"],["廖委員先翔：國家的法律還有有沒有經過協商、人民要不要遵守的問題啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：當然，委員，您到立法院不久……"],["廖委員先翔：以後沒有經過協商通過的法律，人民可以不遵守嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：所謂協商不是形式上的協商，是我們對共同推動的……"],["廖委員先翔：法律經總統公布就是法律，還有遵不遵守的問題啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們在禁伐補償的過程當中，有提出不要一次漲到6萬，但不被大院所接受，我們無法承受。"],["廖委員先翔：好，沒關係，我們來看其他相關立法院通過的法律。這個就剛剛講的。這個是主決議，總統講的話也不是法律，或許跳票，民眾自有公評，沒關係！這個也是立法院通過的一個法律，有機農業獎勵補助辦法，跟原住民禁伐補償條例非常的類似，有面積單位──每公頃，有錢──6萬、24萬、8萬，我請問一下，有機農業獎勵及補貼辦法行政院有沒有編足？"],["卓院長榮泰：我覺得這個要編必須經過行政、立法兩院之間來協調，就某一個政策同意在一定的時程或編足一定的預算，這樣我們當然能執行。在禁伐補償這一件事情顯然不是如此，我們在朝野協商的過程當中提出，如果編到4萬塊，行政院是可以接受的，但是在那個過程就沒有辦法這樣執行。如果每個法律都是這樣子，這樣對行政院的壓力等於形成對國人、國家財務紀律最大的壓力啊！"],["廖委員先翔：依照院長的講法，我們的政府面對法律可以選擇性的執行？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是選擇性，不要用「選擇性」……"],["廖委員先翔：我們行政院面對中華民國的法律，可以看得順眼的就執行，看不順眼的就不遵守嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，請不要用「選擇性」這幾個字，如果你用選擇性，我就要說不要用壓迫性。"],["廖委員先翔：這是法律啊！這是法律吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是用壓迫的，我覺得這是壓迫性，一定要接受，不接受不行……"],["廖委員先翔：這是立法院通過的法律，總統頒布……"],["卓院長榮泰：這樣不好，委員，不要用選擇性……"],["廖委員先翔：目前為止，它不是一個違憲的法律吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：我也不要用這個字眼，我們不要用這個字眼，這是互相協調的，如果協調到一個我們認為財政可以負擔，而且它符合循序漸進的增加，可以。但從3萬塊一下跳到6萬塊，哪一個國家的補貼政策是這樣子？"],["廖委員先翔：可以啊！但我們的行政院到目前為止沒有釋出善意的來跟立法院溝通，就像我剛剛一開始講的，或許總統頒布的時候，行政院明年的總預算已經編得差不多了，我們很難去挪這個可能十多億、二十多億的預算進來，那可以來跟我們立法院協商，說明年度或許很難上路，我們用其他辦法來補足，往後年度我們逐漸把它上路，但目前的情況就是僵在這邊，行政院就什麼都不做啊！整天在那邊透過……好啦！我不要講一些政治性的攻擊的話，但目前就是兩院沒有溝通……"],["卓院長榮泰：這個錢的差距是二十幾億，不要認為這個錢少，這個代表的意義就是兩院之間有沒有遵照整個預算編列、制定跟審議的兩院的權力分立來看。"],["廖委員先翔：我們在乎的是我們的行政院有沒有依法編列預算……"],["卓院長榮泰：大院常常提醒我們一塊錢都不能浪費，不是錢多錢少的問題。"],["廖委員先翔：所以以後任何立法院通過的法律，沒有經過行政院的認可，這個法律就沒有辦法生效嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：請委員不要用「認可」兩個字，是協商、協調的過程，我很重視這個。"],["廖委員先翔：照院長講的，以後立法院通過的法律，在通過前沒有跟行政院協商獲得共識，這個法律就不用生效嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：從此以往，所有的法律都是兩院協商過的。"],["廖委員先翔：哇，這個行政院太侵權了吧！沒有經過協商、行政院認可的法律，行政院可以不遵守，立法院廢掉好了啦！難怪之前很多人說立法院是行政院的立法局，立法院通過的法律居然要行政院同意，這是什麼奇怪的道理啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：委員不要生氣，協商是立法院內部朝野協商。"],["廖委員先翔：協商是一個過程，協商的結果是要順行政院的意嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：協商時我們希望提出我們對整個的規劃，而不是用這種方式，就一定要你增加多少預算。如果今天原住民來一次、客家來一次、婦女來一次、勞動來一次、教師來一次、警察來一次，您認為政府承受得了嗎？我們都必須學習執政，將來有一天或許經過你的努力以後你會站在這個地方，你就知道國家不是這樣在經營的。如果不想執政的政黨，它也許可以這樣做，如果你也想執政，你就必須學習執政的經驗跟執政的過程。"],["廖委員先翔：我執政之後，可能上任的第一天就是要恪遵中華民國的憲法，遵守中華民國的法律，我講這個是行政部門最基本、最基本的責任。"],["卓院長榮泰：對，還有不浪費公帑。"],["廖委員先翔：當然不浪費公帑。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們對所有的預算都會錙銖必較。"],["廖委員先翔：所以原住民禁伐補償條例對院長來說是浪費公帑是不是？應該不是啦？"],["卓院長榮泰：這是違反國家財政紀律……"],["廖委員先翔：我想應該是口誤，院長應該不希望這個當新聞標題啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，違反國家財政紀律的編法，就是讓我們在這種狀況底下失衡整個預算的編列。"],["廖委員先翔：下一頁是我舉個例，補充一下剛剛的部分，交通部加速擴大吸引國際觀光客獎助辦法，境外獎勵每人5,000元，也明定金額，老農津貼也一樣明定金額，可能院長認為這個有經過行政院的同意，所以才能上路。"],["卓院長榮泰：當時都經過很好的協商，是立法院裡面的共識、兩院的共識。"],["廖委員先翔：立法院通過的東西要行政院同意啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：委員那時候不在這裡，不知道那個時候立法院的文化就是這樣子。"],["廖委員先翔：所以如果立法院通過委員提的法律案會增加行政院預算的話，可能都是不太恰當的，是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：這是違反財政紀律，行政院編定……"],["廖委員先翔：立委提出增加國家預算的都違反紀律？"],["卓院長榮泰：我再強調一次，委員可以提一個法案希望行政院做哪些政策，但這個政策要如何執行，其計畫、預算都要行政院來編列，編列完、執行完之後，再接受委員的監督，這才是兩院的制衡、check and balance。"],["廖委員先翔：院長，我懂、我懂、我懂，但是我們的總統好像不這麼認為，民國97年3月14日國民年金法部分條文修正草案，提案人柯建銘、賴清德、葉宜津，針對第五十二條之一新增項目，這個是分娩生育給付特別規定，可能是在國民年金中生育的部分特別增加了一些預算，這個增加預算的部分就一定是國家要增編預算，在院長的眼裡，這個可能有點違反兩院院際的……"],["卓院長榮泰：後來有沒有通過？"],["廖委員先翔：下一案。"],["卓院長榮泰：請問委員，後來有沒有通過？"],["廖委員先翔：制定獎勵再生能源發電條例，這個提案人也非常多，藍綠都有，包括我們的賴清德總統，這個也是每度電收購多少元，也是要求國家增編預算來買電。"],["卓院長榮泰：後來有沒有通過？"],["廖委員先翔：再生能源條例現在不是被罵得很慘嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：有沒有通過？"],["廖委員先翔：再生能源條例應該有，現在上路了吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：有沒有通過？"],["廖委員先翔：買電不就是用這個。"],["卓院長榮泰：那就是行政兩院協調的結果……"],["廖委員先翔：可是剛剛院長說，我們立法委員提的法律案如果會增加國家預算的話，這個東西可能就不太恰當。"],["卓院長榮泰：我是說要經過兩院的協調才可以。"],["廖委員先翔：但總統都一直在這麼做啊！下一張……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員經常斷了我一句話，這樣不好，這樣會造成大家的誤會。"],["廖委員先翔：這個金額更高！97年7月8日，當然這是民主進步黨立法院黨團提案的，但這時候可能我們的賴清德總統是黨團幹部，一樣有提案，可能那時候有一些金融風暴，希望政府增編一些經費，要政府擴大公共投資，經費上限583億元，其中也有一些個人的細項，包括本人4,000元，扶養親屬每人4,000元，也是有一個預算的規模跟一個單價的問題，但在院長的眼裡好像都不是那麼的恰當……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，你這樣是故意……"],["廖委員先翔：如果要通過，都要行政院同意嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我們這一代政治人物不要故意用這種方式來誤解大家，我沒有說立法院不能提這個案，而是提案的過程要經過立法院內部的協調、兩院的協調，這樣才能夠形成一個有效的法律來進行。"],["廖委員先翔：沒關係，院長論述得也非常清楚了，現在就是有一點意見不一致的情況。下一張。"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，你沒有聽到我……故意忽略我的重點。"],["廖委員先翔：沒關係，我知道我們的立場有點不一樣，我都有聽到。"],["卓院長榮泰：你故意忽略我的重點，這樣很不好。"],["廖委員先翔：總預算僵局，賴總統目前神隱，除了在媒體上面發一些言、打打嘴炮嘴在野黨、用情緒勒索拿治水預算、社福預算綁架未依法編列預算之外，總統好像有一些正事沒做啦！中華民國憲法第四十四條規定，院與院之間的紛爭，除本憲法有規定外，得召集各院院長會商……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，情緒性的發言解決不了實質問題。"],["廖委員先翔：總統好像沒有做該做的事情。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，你這種情緒性的發言……"],["廖委員先翔：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝廖委員。","下一位請葉元之委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":187,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-3","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","麥玉珍","沈伯洋","廖先翔","葉元之","黃仁","牛煦庭","王育敏","王世堅","高金素梅","盧縣一","邱議瑩","吳沛憶","王美惠","馬文君","林岱樺","徐巧芯"],"page_start":107,"meetingDate":["2024-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第3次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1137701_00007"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}