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監裁要彈劾你啊如果基金他已經不過用了那我想我們會請求會拜託主席總書是不是再給他再挹注進來讓這個基金能夠繼續的維持我希望依法行政"},{"start":394.383,"end":419.853,"text":"我希望尊重我們立法院三讀通過這樣的議題行政院應該要尊重我們在過去裡面民進黨他們所提案的三讀通過的不就是依法行政不是通過了預算來追加甚至在這個預算法第79條可以追加預算就是依法行政就好了嘛"},{"start":420.997,"end":428.684,"text":"報告委員您所提的就是一個整個預算的程序無論是年度預算或是追加預算您所提剛剛所談的都是一個程序的問題我所在意的也是程序的問題"},{"start":448.78,"end":477.468,"text":"未來競發補償怎麼處理我現在心中沒有定案但是如果都能夠循預算程序來處理都可以談因此報告委員從2000年以後我們成立了多少對原住民朋友生活融在一起的各種政策跟部會當然希望加強所以這件事情是黨派的問題你這個說詞我希望你加強"},{"start":479.029,"end":505.465,"text":"這件問題不是黨派的問題是原則性的問題如果明年增加到更多那行政院也要再照編嗎不會吧所以今年也應該循序這種方式來協調才對我很願意跟大家談現在很多國人都誤會退回預算不是在黨預算好不好 麻煩你重視我們每一個委員所提出來的不是討伐"},{"start":506.297,"end":527.756,"text":"是講道理我們今天講道理我們今天區區的一個14億但是對原住民的來講他是一個很大很大的一個福利政策因為這就是一個補償他們的缺失那這個不就是一個照顧國人的角色你穿著這個衣服不就是"},{"start":529.116,"end":535.217,"text":"對我們原住民是肯定榮耀的既然沒有被接受原住民一直在責怪我們行政院為什麼不尊重"},{"start":551.661,"end":552.422,"text":"另外就是在過去蔡英文承諾"},{"start":577.845,"end":603.625,"text":"在原住民的自治法原住民的土地法及海域法原住民的語言及發展原住民的語言發展法2017年公布原住民的自治及原住民的土地及海域尚未送到立法院但是我已經在本院本席已經在第1個會期已經提送我也希望"},{"start":604.258,"end":632.036,"text":"行政院裡面有自己的版本土地法跟海域法那另外我現在講的是內政部長我們講的是國土計劃法現在全國紛紛擾擾而且在對你們國土計劃法的不諒解很多縣市為什麼不送審到我們立法院給內政部原因在哪裡在送審的話我們土地法就判死了"},{"start":632.876,"end":659.891,"text":"看是什麼把所有的地方的農地變為國有國一國二國三農一農二農三的限制因地制宜沒有在想你們只是希望你們在執行這個任務要完成可是有沒有想到各縣市裡面在都市發展的前提之下都沒有真正的考量因地制宜的角色第一個我想問你"},{"start":663.115,"end":682.914,"text":"國土計劃法對原住民的土地產生了什麼樣的影響以下有6個問題要就教院長包含內政部長包含人民會主委第一個原住民傳統領域及傳統海域問題如何解決第二國土計劃法及原住民的傳統領域劃分"},{"start":685.475,"end":709.196,"text":"的問題如何解決．第3國土功能分析．劃設後原住民土地還能調整嗎．第4國土計劃法通過後．原住民的土地是否．無法自治．第5國土功能分析．分裂．可以蓋原住民傳統文化建築．可以嗎．第6"},{"start":710.377,"end":729.31,"text":"國土計劃會影響既有照領補助以禁法補償的資格請問你有沒有想到這6點你一下跳躍了我們延期法延期法憲法保障也就是你們民進黨總統陳水扁當時認同我們原住民的延期法"},{"start":729.89,"end":745.386,"text":"所以才有今天我們保障我們原住民的土地包含傳統領域但是你現在用國土計畫跳過了我們原住民的土地法還有海域法請問你有什麼樣對我們全國國人交代請說明"},{"start":747.583,"end":763.035,"text":"國土計畫法我跟委員報告其實這個法對原住民是有利的為什麼講呢因為你國土計畫法通過之後有一些原住民的土地管理規則會讓我們的土地等一下我請部長內政部長先回答我這個問題"},{"start":764.736,"end":782.29,"text":"謝謝委員的指教我想我的想法跟原民會主委非常的相像我們的國土計劃法如果能夠順利通過的話對於原住民現在的土地保障反而會更多元以現在原住民的朋友們最關心的就是說在原住民的聚落保留地裡面"},{"start":782.79,"end":783.551,"text":"我希望我希望完成的"},{"start":801.085,"end":802.907,"text":"保障原住民的土地法"},{"start":816.116,"end":817.799,"text":"土地法現在紛紛擾擾全國現在所有的鄉親對這個土地法的不滿為什麼"},{"start":833.015,"end":862.57,"text":"因為你們沒有周遣的考量所以你不要因為你們要去執法執行然後罔顧民意這一些要多聽聽各縣市的聲音當初在選舉的時候你們已經 原民會內政部已經在廣外的來宣達說我們要在土地法裡面要趕快上路但是這幾個月來你看看"},{"start":863.541,"end":877.483,"text":"你看看全國的鄉親對政府的隱憂你們到底有沒有聽聽老百姓的聲音希望國土計劃法延後而且"},{"start":878.226,"end":895.142,"text":"我們認同我們已經有提案希望展延6年把所有的土地法而且要因地制宜考量他們的生計跟土地的開發包含地方的發展還有產業你們都要考量可不可以"},{"start":896.245,"end":917.455,"text":"報告委員 如果要展延6年的話 現在會延緩現在原住民的土地使用管制規則以及上面原住民建物合法化的部分因為如果每個縣市地方政府就把工農分支法但是以大體來講的話 應該要展延6年嘛所以針對原住民的話 你們行密限制嘛 沒有叫你中斷啊"},{"start":919.176,"end":940.338,"text":"沒有叫你中斷,原住民本來是要保障的,但是其他的議題你們要真正考量地方的發展我們一定保障原住民的部分好,謝謝黃委員,謝謝卓院長下一位請紐許廷委員質詢"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2024-10-08T10:05:15.162000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:05:30.316000+08:00","text":"有請卓院長，還有原民會主委，待會內政部部長。","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-08T10:05:30.316000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:05:31.316000+08:00","text":"請卓院長備詢，原民會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T10:05:31.316000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:05:32.316000+08:00","text":"黃委員好。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2024-10-08T10:05:32.078000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:05:57.968000+08:00","text":"院長好，我們先看一下這3張影片，這是我們蔡英文、包含賴清德總統，還有我們卓院長，你們著裝了這個衣服，就表示你認同我們在臺灣，原住民是一家人，是嗎？","quality":0.937},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T10:06:00.145000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:06:01.827000+08:00","text":"我上次好像跟委員說過……","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2024-10-08T10:06:01.827000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:06:04.049000+08:00","text":"你看你著裝的衣服有多帥？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T10:06:04.049000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:06:11.336000+08:00","text":"我說原住民朋友曾經是臺灣這塊土地上唯一的主人，現在我們所有的人民都是臺灣這個國家共同的主人。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2024-10-08T10:06:11.416000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:06:14.058000+08:00","text":"院長，你看一下。沒錯。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2024-10-08T10:06:14.058000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:06:16.601000+08:00","text":"原住民的榮耀，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2024-10-08T10:06:16.601000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:06:17.321000+08:00","text":"你認同嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2024-10-08T10:06:18.422000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:06:46.558000+08:00","text":"那既然認同，我們區區的一個預算，而且不是違法通過，是經過了72位跨黨派，而且是三讀通過，是憲法保障，既然這樣的話，行政院也應該尊重我們區區的一個禁伐補償的預算。","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2024-10-08T10:06:48.079000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:07:23.208000+08:00","text":"當然，你們現在又認為要補充，或者是原民會要從原住民的綜合發展基金挪用，如果挪用的話，我們原住民的發展基金已經破產，沒有任何錢再提供給我們全國國人包含福利的這些基金、包含貸款基金，以上各項福利的基金已經沒有錢，對我們原住民的國人怎麼交代？","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2024-10-08T10:07:24.189000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:07:30.192000+08:00","text":"所以現在三兆兩千多億的預算，我們只有區區的14億。","quality":0.762},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2024-10-08T10:07:33.387000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:08:05.794000+08:00","text":"你們著裝了這個衣服，也彰顯了對世界、對國際認同我們臺灣的原住民就是主人，既然這樣的話，我們待會要討論的是福利、政策、教育、土地，那禁伐補償是國人最關心，我們當然也感謝過去的立法委員、包含現任的立法委員的努力，當然我也要對我們國人要交代，為什麼？","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2024-10-08T10:08:06.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:08:29.390000+08:00","text":"因為現在很多國人，包含原住民在誤解、誤會我們在擋總預算，不是，是退回總預算重新檢討，再把我們的預算是不是可以編列出來，因為原住民的事務裡面不是那麼繁雜，只是追求了一個對原住民的尊重。","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2024-10-08T10:08:29.390000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:08:36.763000+08:00","text":"今天我們禁伐補償，既然你們禁止開伐，不如也給他們一個鼓勵，所以這個就是你要對國人原住民的角度的重視，你著裝了這個衣服，表示你絕對對我們原住民感到榮耀，院長，你認為呢？","quality":0.187},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T10:08:36.763000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:09:15.128000+08:00","text":"委員對原住民朋友的關心，我們當然非常清楚，我當然比不上你，但是我們會透過各種的機會去了解原住民朋友的文化、需求、生活，我們希望大家融為一體，這絕對也請委員不用懷疑……","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2024-10-08T10:09:15.748000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:09:20.712000+08:00","text":"開國以來到現在，我們不是一個使用品了，也不是試用品……","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T10:09:20.712000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:09:21.812000+08:00","text":"不是、不是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2024-10-08T10:09:21.812000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:09:50.906000+08:00","text":"我們是一個核心的價值，原住民在臺灣這一塊土地，我們站起來，在歷史角度，我們絕對跟國際來發聲，因為我們是真正的臺灣主人，可是我們國家有沒有真正站在原住民的角度，一旦總統選舉，穿著原住民的衣服，說自己是原住民的孩子，但是選舉之後呢？","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2024-10-08T10:09:51.626000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:09:55.388000+08:00","text":"背後裡面沒有真正地給予原住民的尊重。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2024-10-08T10:09:55.388000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:09:56.388000+08:00","text":"主委，你來說明對於禁伐補償怎麼樣從哪幾個地方重新檢討，還是重新編列？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2024-10-08T10:09:56.388000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:09:57.388000+08:00","text":"或者是你要從原住民的發展基金挪用，這樣的話，原住民全部會討伐你，你來說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2024-10-08T10:09:56.046000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:10:26.992000+08:00","text":"我跟委員報告，歷年原民會成立以來，今年的預算是最多的一次，我們還編了28.16億要發禁伐補償。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2024-10-08T10:10:26.992000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:10:33.438000+08:00","text":"你不要跟我講這個，因為現在的物價指數已經上漲，你不提高，你還認為這個預算要減少嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2024-10-08T10:10:33.438000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:10:34.438000+08:00","text":"所以我們也……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2024-10-08T10:10:33.438000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:10:35.220000+08:00","text":"現在我要問的是禁伐補償你要怎麼處理？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2024-10-08T10:10:35.380000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:10:56.616000+08:00","text":"如果說禁伐補償，我們已經增加了七點多億，總共28.16億，那還不夠補、還不夠給的，就是如果是1公頃是6萬還不夠給的話，當然我們就按歷年的往例，循例由基金來補充。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2024-10-08T10:10:57.717000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:10:59.878000+08:00","text":"基金裡面是不能挪用的嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2024-10-08T10:11:00.278000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:11:01.118000+08:00","text":"這是違法的嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2024-10-08T10:11:01.118000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:11:03.019000+08:00","text":"以前都是這樣在用。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2024-10-08T10:11:03.019000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:11:09.902000+08:00","text":"以前雖然都在挪用，112年已經挪用到多少？","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2024-10-08T10:11:09.922000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:11:20.686000+08:00","text":"67億，你再挪用14億補貼禁伐補償的時候，已經是破產，而且是違法，到時候監察院要彈劾你。","quality":0.771},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2024-10-08T10:11:21.306000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:11:32.669000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，如果基金已經不夠用了，我們會請求、拜託主計總處是不是再挹注進來，讓這個基金能夠繼續維持。","quality":0.822},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2024-10-08T10:11:33.129000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:11:36.210000+08:00","text":"我希望依法行政。是。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2024-10-08T10:11:37.383000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:11:45.626000+08:00","text":"我希望尊重立法院三讀通過，這樣的議題行政院應該要尊重。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2024-10-08T10:11:46.947000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:12:02.833000+08:00","text":"過去民進黨他們所提案三讀通過的不就是依法行政，不是通過了預算來追加，甚至在預算法第七十九條可以追加預算，就是依法行政就好了嘛！","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2024-10-08T10:12:02.833000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:12:03.997000+08:00","text":"因為沒有違法，也不會減少三兆兩千多億的預算，只是用在這個預算裡面，應該尊重立法院的三讀通過，這才是真正尊重原住民，我們並沒有違法。","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T10:12:03.997000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:12:11.684000+08:00","text":"報告委員，你所提的就是整個預算的程序，無論是年度預算或是追加預算，你剛剛所談的都是一個程序的問題，我所在意的也是程序問題。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T10:12:31.780000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:12:34.941000+08:00","text":"未來禁伐補償怎麼處理，我現在心中沒有定案……院長……","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T10:12:35.661000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:12:46.344000+08:00","text":"但是如果都能夠循預算程序來處理，都可以談。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2024-10-08T10:12:46.344000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:12:47.344000+08:00","text":"你所說程序的問題，請問三讀通過有72位跨黨派來通過同意的，這不就是程序嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T10:12:47.144000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:12:54.926000+08:00","text":"報告委員，從2000年以後，我們成立了多少對原住民朋友生活融在一起的各種政策，跟部會、跟首長一起做……","quality":0.854},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2024-10-08T10:12:54.926000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:12:56.747000+08:00","text":"我當然希望加強……","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T10:12:56.747000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:12:59.628000+08:00","text":"所以這件事情不是黨派的問題。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2024-10-08T10:12:59.628000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:13:00.468000+08:00","text":"你這個說詞，我希望你加強，好不好？","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T10:13:02.029000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:13:10.894000+08:00","text":"這件事情不是黨派的問題，是原則性的問題，如果明年增加到更多，那行政院也要再照編嗎？","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T10:13:10.894000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:13:11.194000+08:00","text":"不會吧？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T10:13:12.155000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:13:16.638000+08:00","text":"所以今年也應該循序這種方式來協調才對，我很願意跟大家談。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2024-10-08T10:13:16.638000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:13:22.841000+08:00","text":"現在很多國人都誤會退回預算，不是在擋預算，好不好？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T10:13:22.841000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:13:23.841000+08:00","text":"沒有，現在是在程序委員會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2024-10-08T10:13:22.941000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:13:30.078000+08:00","text":"麻煩你重視我們每一個委員所提出來的，不是討伐，是講道理。是、是。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2024-10-08T10:13:31.459000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:13:54.577000+08:00","text":"我們今天講道理，今天區區的14億，但是對原住民來講，是一個很大、很大的福利政策，因為這就是補償他們的缺失，這個不就是一個照顧國人的角色，你穿著這個衣服不就是對我們原住民是肯定、榮耀的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T10:13:54.577000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:13:55.577000+08:00","text":"我很願意，所以在協商過程中，我們提出行政院主張調整到4萬，從3萬到4萬已經調整了33%，但這個提議沒有被接受，這個建議沒有被接受。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2024-10-08T10:13:54.857000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:13:55.937000+08:00","text":"既然沒有被接受……","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T10:13:55.937000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:13:59.681800+08:00","text":"但我們用現在的方式，只是說不希望用這種方式……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2024-10-08T10:13:59.681800+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:14:03.426600+08:00","text":"原住民一直在責怪行政院為什麼不尊重，這就是你們要檢討的地方，所以我相信你們絕對有更高的智慧來解決這個問題，不要在這個地方打繞，我們也還要往前行，有很多預算我們希望都要配合的……","quality":0.21},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T10:14:03.426600+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:14:07.171400+08:00","text":"也請委員相信……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2024-10-08T10:14:07.171400+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:14:10.916200+08:00","text":"但是也希望你們也尊重我們原住民的議題，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T10:14:10.916200+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:14:14.661000+08:00","text":"請委員相信我們跟我正在努力當中。好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2024-10-08T10:14:14.661000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:15:08.899000+08:00","text":"另外就是過去蔡英文承諾在原住民自治法、原住民土地法及海域法、原住民語言發展法，2017年公布原住民族自治法及原住民族土地及海域法，尚未送到立法院，但是本席已經在第一個會期提送，我也希望原住民族土地及海域法，行政院你們有自己的版本。","quality":0.835},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2024-10-08T10:15:11.461000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:15:24.109000+08:00","text":"另外，內政部長，我們講的是國土計畫法現在全國紛紛擾擾，而且對你們的國土計畫法不諒解。","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2024-10-08T10:15:24.829000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:15:32.134000+08:00","text":"很多縣市為什麼不送審給內政部，原因在哪裡？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2024-10-08T10:15:32.334000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:15:36.897000+08:00","text":"送審的話，我們土地法就判死了，判死什麼？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2024-10-08T10:15:36.897000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:15:59.469000+08:00","text":"把所有地方的農地變為國有，國一、國二、國三，農一、農二、農三，而有所限制，沒有因地制宜，你們只是在執行這個任務，要完成它，可是有沒有想到各縣市裡面，在都市發展的前提之下，都沒有真正地考量到因地制宜。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2024-10-08T10:16:00.710000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:16:11.400000+08:00","text":"第一個，我想問你，國土計畫法對原住民的土地產生了什麼樣的影響？","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2024-10-08T10:16:11.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:16:23.552000+08:00","text":"以下有六個問題要就教院長，包含內政部長、包含原民會主委，第一個，原住民傳統領域及傳統海域問題如何解決？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2024-10-08T10:16:23.552000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:16:30.337000+08:00","text":"第二，國土計畫法及原住民傳統領域劃分的問題如何解決？","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2024-10-08T10:16:30.337000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:16:37.303000+08:00","text":"第三，國土功能分區劃設後，原住民的土地還能調整嗎？","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2024-10-08T10:16:37.303000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:16:43.248000+08:00","text":"第四，國土計畫法通過後，原住民的土地是否無法自治？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2024-10-08T10:16:44.449000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:16:52.176000+08:00","text":"第五，國土功能分區分類可以蓋原住民傳統文化建築嗎？","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2024-10-08T10:16:52.176000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:17:01.542000+08:00","text":"第六，國土計畫會影響既有造林補助與禁伐補償的資格，請問你有沒有想到這六點？","quality":0.794},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2024-10-08T10:17:01.542000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:17:27.866000+08:00","text":"你一下跳過了我們的原基法，原基法憲法保障，你們民進黨總統陳水扁當時認同我們原住民的原基法，所以才有今天保障我們原住民的土地、包含傳統領域，但是你現在用國土計畫跳過了我們原住民的土地法還有海域法，請問你怎麼樣對我們全國國人交代？","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2024-10-08T10:17:28.366000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:17:28.366000+08:00","text":"請說明。","quality":1},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2024-10-08T10:17:30.583000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:17:35.587000+08:00","text":"國土計畫法，我跟委員報告，其實這個法對原住民是有利的，為什麼這樣講？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"曾主任委員智勇","start":"2024-10-08T10:17:36.347000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:17:41.891000+08:00","text":"因為國土計畫法通過之後，有一些原住民的土地管理規則會讓我們的土地……","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2024-10-08T10:17:42.252000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:17:46.035000+08:00","text":"等一下，我請內政部長先回答我這個問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T10:17:47.736000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:17:58.825000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員的指教，我想我的想法跟原民會主委非常地相像，我們的國土計畫法如果能夠順利通過，對於原住民現在的土地保障反而會更多元。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T10:17:58.825000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:18:05.790000+08:00","text":"現在原住民的朋友們最關心的就是在原住民的聚落保留地裡面房子的合法化問題，我想黃委員非常地清楚，現在全臺灣大概有14萬棟，我們在今天要跟原住民委員會共同召開一個原住民族土地使用管制規則的定案，希望能夠把……","quality":0.287},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2024-10-08T10:18:05.790000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:18:25.887000+08:00","text":"我希望要完整地保障原住民的土地法。","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T10:18:25.887000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:18:32.582000+08:00","text":"是，我們非常地清楚……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2024-10-08T10:18:32.582000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:18:39.277000+08:00","text":"但是我希望你們也提出行政院版，第一個，針對原住民的土地法、包含海域法及傳統領域的保障，以上這都是要提出報告給我，主委，也麻煩你提供報告給我，還有內政部長也請給我一份。","quality":0.027},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2024-10-08T10:18:39.277000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:18:40.799000+08:00","text":"另外就是國土計畫法現在紛紛擾擾，全國現在所有的鄉親對這個國土計畫法不滿，為什麼？","quality":0.703},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2024-10-08T10:18:56.015000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:19:39.462000+08:00","text":"因為你們沒有周全的考量，所以不要因為你們要去執法、執行，然後罔顧民意，要多聽聽各縣市的聲音，當初在選舉的時候，原民會、內政部已經在廣泛地宣達說國土計畫法要趕快上路，但是這幾個月來，你看看全國的鄉親對政府的隱憂，你們到底有沒有聽聽老百姓的聲音，希望國土計畫法延後？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2024-10-08T10:19:40.283000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:19:58.122000+08:00","text":"而且我們認同且已經有提案，希望展延六年，把所有的……而且要因地制宜、考量他們的生計跟土地的開發，包含地方的發展還有產業你們都要考量，可不可以？","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T10:19:59.245000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:20:13.052000+08:00","text":"報告委員，如果要展延六年的話，會延緩現在原住民的土地使用管制規則以及上面原住民建物合法化的部分，因為如果每個縣市、地方政府有把功能分區法……","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2024-10-08T10:20:13.052000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:20:14.052000+08:00","text":"你們可以循序漸進嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2024-10-08T10:20:13.312000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:20:16.473000+08:00","text":"但是以大體來講的話，應該要展延六年嘛！","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T10:20:16.473000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:20:17.473000+08:00","text":"但是在原住民……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2024-10-08T10:20:17.074000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:20:30.745000+08:00","text":"針對原住民的話，你們循序漸進嘛，沒有叫你中斷啊，原住民本來就要保障的嘛，但是其他的議題你們真正要考量地方的發展。","quality":0.863},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T10:20:31.206000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:20:33.168000+08:00","text":"我們一定保障原住民的部分。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員仁","start":"2024-10-08T10:20:33.168000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:20:35.891000+08:00","text":"好，以上，謝謝。","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-08T10:20:35.891000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:20:41.036000+08:00","text":"謝謝黃委員、謝謝卓院長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-08T10:20:41.036000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:20:43.338000+08:00","text":"下一位請牛煦庭委員質詢。","quality":0.727}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-08T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:05:03 - 10:20:45","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","gazette":{"lineno":361,"blocks":[["黃委員仁：（10時5分）有請卓院長，還有原民會主委，待會內政部部長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢，原民會。"],["卓院長榮泰：黃委員好。"],["黃委員仁：院長好，我們先看一下這3張影片，這是我們蔡英文、包含賴清德總統，還有我們卓院長，你們著裝了這個衣服，就表示你認同我們在臺灣，原住民是一家人，是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我上次好像跟委員說過……"],["黃委員仁：你看你著裝的衣服有多帥？"],["卓院長榮泰：我說原住民朋友曾經是臺灣這塊土地上唯一的主人，現在我們所有的人民都是臺灣這個國家共同的主人。"],["黃委員仁：院長，你看一下。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒錯。"],["黃委員仁：原住民的榮耀，對不對？你認同嘛！那既然認同，我們區區的一個預算，而且不是違法通過，是經過了72位跨黨派，而且是三讀通過，是憲法保障，既然這樣的話，行政院也應該尊重我們區區的一個禁伐補償的預算。當然，你們現在又認為要補充，或者是原民會要從原住民的綜合發展基金挪用，如果挪用的話，我們原住民的發展基金已經破產，沒有任何錢再提供給我們全國國人包含福利的這些基金、包含貸款基金，以上各項福利的基金已經沒有錢，對我們原住民的國人怎麼交代？所以現在三兆兩千多億的預算，我們只有區區的14億。你們著裝了這個衣服，也彰顯了對世界、對國際認同我們臺灣的原住民就是主人，既然這樣的話，我們待會要討論的是福利、政策、教育、土地，那禁伐補償是國人最關心，我們當然也感謝過去的立法委員、包含現任的立法委員的努力，當然我也要對我們國人要交代，為什麼？因為現在很多國人，包含原住民在誤解、誤會我們在擋總預算，不是，是退回總預算重新檢討，再把我們的預算是不是可以編列出來，因為原住民的事務裡面不是那麼繁雜，只是追求了一個對原住民的尊重。今天我們禁伐補償，既然你們禁止開伐，不如也給他們一個鼓勵，所以這個就是你要對國人原住民的角度的重視，你著裝了這個衣服，表示你絕對對我們原住民感到榮耀，院長，你認為呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員對原住民朋友的關心，我們當然非常清楚，我當然比不上你，但是我們會透過各種的機會去了解原住民朋友的文化、需求、生活，我們希望大家融為一體，這絕對也請委員不用懷疑……"],["黃委員仁：開國以來到現在，我們不是一個使用品了，也不是試用品……"],["卓院長榮泰：不是、不是。"],["黃委員仁：我們是一個核心的價值，原住民在臺灣這一塊土地，我們站起來，在歷史角度，我們絕對跟國際來發聲，因為我們是真正的臺灣主人，可是我們國家有沒有真正站在原住民的角度，一旦總統選舉，穿著原住民的衣服，說自己是原住民的孩子，但是選舉之後呢？背後裡面沒有真正地給予原住民的尊重。主委，你來說明對於禁伐補償怎麼樣從哪幾個地方重新檢討，還是重新編列？或者是你要從原住民的發展基金挪用，這樣的話，原住民全部會討伐你，你來說明。"],["曾主任委員智勇：我跟委員報告，歷年原民會成立以來，今年的預算是最多的一次，我們還編了28.16億要發禁伐補償。"],["黃委員仁：你不要跟我講這個，因為現在的物價指數已經上漲，你不提高，你還認為這個預算要減少嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：所以我們也……"],["黃委員仁：現在我要問的是禁伐補償你要怎麼處理？"],["曾主任委員智勇：如果說禁伐補償，我們已經增加了七點多億，總共28.16億，那還不夠補、還不夠給的，就是如果是1公頃是6萬還不夠給的話，當然我們就按歷年的往例，循例由基金來補充。"],["黃委員仁：基金裡面是不能挪用的嘛！這是違法的嘛！"],["曾主任委員智勇：以前都是這樣在用。"],["黃委員仁：以前雖然都在挪用，112年已經挪用到多少？67億，你再挪用14億補貼禁伐補償的時候，已經是破產，而且是違法，到時候監察院要彈劾你。"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，如果基金已經不夠用了，我們會請求、拜託主計總處是不是再挹注進來，讓這個基金能夠繼續維持。"],["黃委員仁：我希望依法行政。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["黃委員仁：我希望尊重立法院三讀通過，這樣的議題行政院應該要尊重。過去民進黨他們所提案三讀通過的不就是依法行政，不是通過了預算來追加，甚至在預算法第七十九條可以追加預算，就是依法行政就好了嘛！因為沒有違法，也不會減少三兆兩千多億的預算，只是用在這個預算裡面，應該尊重立法院的三讀通過，這才是真正尊重原住民，我們並沒有違法。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，你所提的就是整個預算的程序，無論是年度預算或是追加預算，你剛剛所談的都是一個程序的問題，我所在意的也是程序問題。未來禁伐補償怎麼處理，我現在心中沒有定案……"],["黃委員仁：院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：但是如果都能夠循預算程序來處理，都可以談。"],["黃委員仁：你所說程序的問題，請問三讀通過有72位跨黨派來通過同意的，這不就是程序嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，從2000年以後，我們成立了多少對原住民朋友生活融在一起的各種政策，跟部會、跟首長一起做……"],["黃委員仁：我當然希望加強……"],["卓院長榮泰：所以這件事情不是黨派的問題。"],["黃委員仁：你這個說詞，我希望你加強，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：這件事情不是黨派的問題，是原則性的問題，如果明年增加到更多，那行政院也要再照編嗎？不會吧？所以今年也應該循序這種方式來協調才對，我很願意跟大家談。"],["黃委員仁：現在很多國人都誤會退回預算，不是在擋預算，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有，現在是在程序委員會。"],["黃委員仁：麻煩你重視我們每一個委員所提出來的，不是討伐，是講道理。"],["卓院長榮泰：是、是。"],["黃委員仁：我們今天講道理，今天區區的14億，但是對原住民來講，是一個很大、很大的福利政策，因為這就是補償他們的缺失，這個不就是一個照顧國人的角色，你穿著這個衣服不就是對我們原住民是肯定、榮耀的？"],["卓院長榮泰：我很願意，所以在協商過程中，我們提出行政院主張調整到4萬，從3萬到4萬已經調整了33%，但這個提議沒有被接受，這個建議沒有被接受。"],["黃委員仁：既然沒有被接受……"],["卓院長榮泰：但我們用現在的方式，只是說不希望用這種方式……"],["黃委員仁：原住民一直在責怪行政院為什麼不尊重，這就是你們要檢討的地方，所以我相信你們絕對有更高的智慧來解決這個問題，不要在這個地方打繞，我們也還要往前行，有很多預算我們希望都要配合的……"],["卓院長榮泰：也請委員相信……"],["黃委員仁：但是也希望你們也尊重我們原住民的議題，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：請委員相信我們跟我正在努力當中。"],["黃委員仁：好。另外就是過去蔡英文承諾在原住民自治法、原住民土地法及海域法、原住民語言發展法，2017年公布原住民族自治法及原住民族土地及海域法，尚未送到立法院，但是本席已經在第一個會期提送，我也希望原住民族土地及海域法，行政院你們有自己的版本。","另外，內政部長，我們講的是國土計畫法現在全國紛紛擾擾，而且對你們的國土計畫法不諒解。很多縣市為什麼不送審給內政部，原因在哪裡？送審的話，我們土地法就判死了，判死什麼？把所有地方的農地變為國有，國一、國二、國三，農一、農二、農三，而有所限制，沒有因地制宜，你們只是在執行這個任務，要完成它，可是有沒有想到各縣市裡面，在都市發展的前提之下，都沒有真正地考量到因地制宜。","第一個，我想問你，國土計畫法對原住民的土地產生了什麼樣的影響？以下有六個問題要就教院長，包含內政部長、包含原民會主委，第一個，原住民傳統領域及傳統海域問題如何解決？第二，國土計畫法及原住民傳統領域劃分的問題如何解決？第三，國土功能分區劃設後，原住民的土地還能調整嗎？第四，國土計畫法通過後，原住民的土地是否無法自治？第五，國土功能分區分類可以蓋原住民傳統文化建築嗎？第六，國土計畫會影響既有造林補助與禁伐補償的資格，請問你有沒有想到這六點？你一下跳過了我們的原基法，原基法憲法保障，你們民進黨總統陳水扁當時認同我們原住民的原基法，所以才有今天保障我們原住民的土地、包含傳統領域，但是你現在用國土計畫跳過了我們原住民的土地法還有海域法，請問你怎麼樣對我們全國國人交代？請說明。"],["曾主任委員智勇：國土計畫法，我跟委員報告，其實這個法對原住民是有利的，為什麼這樣講？因為國土計畫法通過之後，有一些原住民的土地管理規則會讓我們的土地……"],["黃委員仁：等一下，我請內政部長先回答我這個問題。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員的指教，我想我的想法跟原民會主委非常地相像，我們的國土計畫法如果能夠順利通過，對於原住民現在的土地保障反而會更多元。現在原住民的朋友們最關心的就是在原住民的聚落保留地裡面房子的合法化問題，我想黃委員非常地清楚，現在全臺灣大概有14萬棟，我們在今天要跟原住民委員會共同召開一個原住民族土地使用管制規則的定案，希望能夠把……"],["黃委員仁：我希望要完整地保障原住民的土地法。"],["劉部長世芳：是，我們非常地清楚……"],["黃委員仁：但是我希望你們也提出行政院版，第一個，針對原住民的土地法、包含海域法及傳統領域的保障，以上這都是要提出報告給我，主委，也麻煩你提供報告給我，還有內政部長也請給我一份。","另外就是國土計畫法現在紛紛擾擾，全國現在所有的鄉親對這個國土計畫法不滿，為什麼？因為你們沒有周全的考量，所以不要因為你們要去執法、執行，然後罔顧民意，要多聽聽各縣市的聲音，當初在選舉的時候，原民會、內政部已經在廣泛地宣達說國土計畫法要趕快上路，但是這幾個月來，你看看全國的鄉親對政府的隱憂，你們到底有沒有聽聽老百姓的聲音，希望國土計畫法延後？而且我們認同且已經有提案，希望展延六年，把所有的……而且要因地制宜、考量他們的生計跟土地的開發，包含地方的發展還有產業你們都要考量，可不可以？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，如果要展延六年的話，會延緩現在原住民的土地使用管制規則以及上面原住民建物合法化的部分，因為如果每個縣市、地方政府有把功能分區法……"],["黃委員仁：你們可以循序漸進嘛！但是以大體來講的話，應該要展延六年嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：但是在原住民……"],["黃委員仁：針對原住民的話，你們循序漸進嘛，沒有叫你中斷啊，原住民本來就要保障的嘛，但是其他的議題你們真正要考量地方的發展。"],["劉部長世芳：我們一定保障原住民的部分。"],["黃委員仁：好，以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員、謝謝卓院長。","下一位請牛煦庭委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":187,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-3","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","麥玉珍","沈伯洋","廖先翔","葉元之","黃仁","牛煦庭","王育敏","王世堅","高金素梅","盧縣一","邱議瑩","吳沛憶","王美惠","馬文君","林岱樺","徐巧芯"],"page_start":107,"meetingDate":["2024-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第3次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1137701_00007"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}