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這把大火是桃園人心中永遠的痛因為它帶來的公害跟後面的損失是不計其數的不只是美孚的大火2022年4天過後3月14號在陽梅的家樂福同樣也是倉儲"},{"start":103.716,"end":133.139,"text":"發生了大火的事件大火的事件倉儲大火也不只是發生在桃園到2023年8月1號去年的時候這個林口的PC Home它一樣是倉儲的大火每一次這個火災的規模都很大救災的成本也非常高那證明了倉儲是火災的熱點是公害的溫床更是消防人員救災的巨大負擔院長跟部長應該不會反對這樣的說法這幾把大火應該我講了大概就有印象對不對是同意"},{"start":133.879,"end":148.806,"text":"同意對不對好這個院長可能會想說這個突然之間在這邊提兩年前發生的美孚大火為什麼要就案重提這我要跟院長講講故事院長你知不知道或部長知不知道美孚大火的公害影響多少人"},{"start":151.443,"end":172.939,"text":"對相當的多因為他燃燒的這個肉類他燃燒的時間非常的長他影響的人數數萬人甚至到十萬人之普因為那個臭味基本上北桃園的市民都聞到了部長曾經聞過火場的味道嗎我知道我有去過那個其實是蠻可怕的所以火災不只是消防人員的損傷而已他其實也是公害的來源"},{"start":174.929,"end":198.172,"text":"今天不只是這個救災的問題我要跟院長跟部長講的是有一小群人他們叫美孚大火公害自救會因為這場大火發生之後後來我們發現政府其實沒有什麼樣的法源依據去裁罰相關的廠商公害造成的損失到最後由市民自行承擔有一小群人看不過去只好抱團自救自己組了自救會"},{"start":199.153,"end":219.018,"text":"然後去跟美孚這個廠商打官司如果看來這叫做小蝦米對大鯨魚小市民站大財團他們希望透過市民站出來的力量一方面他們要為自己討一口公道討一點公道二方面更重要的是我曾經在擔任議員的時候我曾經進行協助的時候他們就拜託我們"},{"start":220.519,"end":241.133,"text":"希望透過他們站出來打官司的這個行為希望讓各級政府重視這樣子倉促的大火悲劇不能再重演那個時候我是桃園市的議員後來我跟順利他也在我們同一個選區在我們蘆竹南崁地區我現在是桃園第一選區的選區民意代表受人之托 忠人之勢"},{"start":242.034,"end":243.736,"text":"是的 這個身為民意代表"},{"start":259.377,"end":262.098,"text":"解決問題對不對所以這個方向目前這樣回答本期還算是非常滿意的我們希望喔"},{"start":278.582,"end":306.552,"text":"這樣子的大火悲劇不重演政府能夠重視並且進行制度上的調整今天是內政組的質詢所以我們馬上立法院也正在排審消防法所以我們還是回到救災的角度來討論這樣的事情回到防災救災的主軸請問院長部長要支援也可以我剛剛有講桃園的兩個大火一個是美孚一個是家樂福家樂福的大火救災的時間多久動員了多少資源兩位有概念嗎"},{"start":307.745,"end":311.526,"text":"好吧,誠實也是上冊,但我會希望有一個數字,我就把數字公布給兩位看就在時間40個小時20分鐘"},{"start":327.116,"end":327.897,"text":"那美孚呢?"},{"start":341.786,"end":369.674,"text":"要不要估一下這樣子的數字幾天吧我記得七天主要是悶燒悶燒對不對我告訴兩位不止七天啦美孚大火救災啦就實際上在壓制火勢的時間161個小時差不多是七天左右可是因為悶燒因為復燃因為他的倉儲的結構讓救災的難度提升啦所以這復燃悶燒變得大家束手無策後來出動了這個大鋼牙這些相關的機具啊"},{"start":370.094,"end":398.036,"text":"各式各樣的車次576輛次整個悶燒的時間21天超過500個小時一場火災動員的消防人力2163人次這數字應該滿驚人的吧 院長請問這個消防弟兄辛苦不辛苦非常辛苦我們應不應該從制度跟等等的角度去避免這樣的事情再次發生"},{"start":399.75,"end":403.219,"text":"如果從源頭能夠來避免這個事情就會減少他們的勤務量"},{"start":404.002,"end":431.437,"text":"好 那麼這兩場倉儲大火為什麼這麼的勞民傷財我們就直接講因為倉儲的火載量這我曾經在內政委員會質詢的時候消防組長答得非常快所謂的火載量就是單位面積可燃物完全燃燒的時候產生的熱能啦就它易不易燃它容不容易引起火災倉儲的易燃的火載量不只不低於工廠甚至高於工廠甚多有四倍五倍不止"},{"start":432.057,"end":458.472,"text":"所以剛剛開頭的時候我跟兩位在在在質詢的時候兩位第一個想到的火災想到的是桃園的進棚工業大火想到的是屏東的名陽大火這是工廠對不對但是倉儲的易燃的性質跟燃燒的強度其實是不低於這樣工廠的一個狀況那院長請問現在倉儲的部分存放物流倉庫冷鏈倉庫等等他們有沒有在消防裡面被正式的納管"},{"start":459.827,"end":488.395,"text":"我們曾經在院會裡面正式報告也討論過這一個事情所以我們也對於這個管制的方式有請內政部消防署能夠跟地方政府也要加強的合作配合來處理這個事情你這樣講說加強配合然後應該要做對我們都知道應該要做嘛剛剛我講了不管是基於為這個小市民來做代言或者是從救災人力的節省跟預防的角度來說我們這邊都有非常好的共識對不對就是我們應該要做這件事情但現在做了沒有"},{"start":489.056,"end":489.316,"text":"現在清不清楚"},{"start":503.652,"end":520.494,"text":"我可不可以補充一下跟委員報告一下就消防員救災的角度來看在那個工廠管理輔導法以及我們消防法裡面要注意的是有關他這個工廠在儲存這些物資的時候是否有確實申報尤其我們有關於這個危險物質的部分"},{"start":521.134,"end":538.882,"text":"這一點我們從消防署的角度上面已經有加強也就是說出去救災的消防人員他們出去救災的時候馬上就知道說他的工廠裡面到底儲放什麼樣的物質這是最重要的一點再來一點就是說第一個倉儲跟工廠的所在地或是公司的所在地有時候是距離比較遙遠"},{"start":539.762,"end":554.691,"text":"所以他的防火或者他的滅火措施被忽略掉那這一點我們會從工廠管理輔導法跟我們消防法一起來補足會跟縣市政府來努力來改善現在我們認為會發生比較大的火警甚至造成比較大的傷亡的部分做改善"},{"start":555.191,"end":576.839,"text":"回答得不錯但差了點勇氣其實我希望從院長裡面就直面問題就以現行的機制來講其實這個納管也好申報也好都還有若干的改進之處其實是不夠的包含我們現在的倉儲其實定位是不明確的我跟你講工廠很明確工廠有一套所謂剛剛部長也講了叫做工廠管理輔導法裡面有消防的設備配置等等一些配套措施但是倉儲"},{"start":578.159,"end":582.462,"text":"不過報告委員我們的消防署非常的認真就是說只要他有申報的話有任何火災的狀況站在我們的立場一定都會是遲緣的"},{"start":596.582,"end":617.303,"text":"當然是馳援我們現在講的是我心裡總是看到火災的時候我總是感念消防弟兄的付出甚至看到他們犧牲的時候我是非常傷痛的但是我們之所以去強調這個事情就是防災要重於救災我們如果前期的配套措施做得好前期的制度設計的是好的預防於前其實就是幫第一線要進去打火的弟兄減輕負擔可是現行的規制裡面倉儲"},{"start":620.686,"end":646.702,"text":"也好這個部分的工廠甚至在申報的部分他其實是不夠確實的我現在看到行政院提出的消防法的版本裡面這個本席當然就有提自己的版本原因是什麼呢因為在行政院消防法的兩個問題第一個倉儲依然是被一個定位不明確的角度針對工廠他當然做了若干的修正針對消防員的權益也做了若干的努力這些本席都看在眼裡"},{"start":647.242,"end":672.381,"text":"但是倉儲還是被漏掉啦那本期的選區發生這麼重要的事情桃園市政府也在院會裡面屢次提及這件事情的重要但我在消防行政院院版的消防法裡面並沒有看到相關條文的修正所以我今天一定要用總諮詢的時間來跟院長跟部長做釐清原因就在這個地方本期提出的意見來就教於這個兩位喔這個倉儲當然應該要納管本期的主張是"},{"start":673.677,"end":675.239,"text":"我為什麼要把一定規模以上的倉庫來做納入呢當然是因為先異後難嘛"},{"start":694.219,"end":709.611,"text":"規模大的它造成的影響災損等等的強度是比較高的那我甚至在裡面也有一定的授權條款就是說哪一些倉庫哪一些類型可以讓中央主管機關來擬定這樣子我們就可以針對不同型態的比如你放倉儲裡面存放的東西其實五花八門啊"},{"start":710.371,"end":725.116,"text":"他存的是易燃的油啊化學品啊這個紡織的棉布啊紙尿褲啊紙類品比如說林口PC Home的倉儲袋裡面都是衛生紙對不對那燒起來也是一發不可收拾那不能因為它是倉儲而不是工廠"},{"start":725.876,"end":744.684,"text":"然後就在這個地方被漏掉本席覺得這是非常奇怪的所以在我們的版本裡面就提要備制並且申報這我講什麼叫備制什麼叫申報也是第二個問題就是我們在行政院目前消防法的版本裡面我們只看到了備制備制的意思就是我這個工廠的負責人我只要準備好說我裡面有些什麼就好"},{"start":745.267,"end":768.289,"text":"但是我的準備不見得要讓政府知道阿我的備制萬一放在工廠的抽屜裡面大火燒起來他就在火場裡面的時候那備制變成這個流於表面我是覺得滿可惜的所以本席在這邊是主張阿不只是要備制也應該要申報對不對你要讓內政部讓消防弟兄非常清楚的了解可能發生火警的地方他的狀態是什麼"},{"start":769.079,"end":769.94,"text":"委員長我現在講到這邊大家同意嗎"},{"start":799.059,"end":801.803,"text":"公共安全及職業安全衛生的危害僅以場所管制"},{"start":815.982,"end":838.475,"text":"期望業者主動申報顯緣木求魚這就是我想法條有若干缺失可以改善的地方因為你只是期待他申報他不申報的時候到時候消防員就殉職了我們非常非常不希望看到這樣子的悲劇繼續重演這個沒有預防於前造成的後果我想是難以承載的輕叫做經濟損失"},{"start":839.956,"end":864.566,"text":"中呢叫做公害平傳重的話他會出人命犧牲消防弟兄所以我希望在消防法修法的過程之中行政院可以更開放的態度接納不同的意見我剛剛聽總質詢這樣一路談下來其實我們的溝通是非常順暢的這個部長跟院長也用非常開放的心態接受了倉儲納管這樣子的一個概念這樣的概念我們在修法的時候我們可以一樣用這樣子的心態來討論嗎"},{"start":865.866,"end":890.4,"text":"也謝謝委員希望能夠支持消防法趕快刪讀通過我們當然支持啊前面有一段沒有修就是因為我們這很重要的版本還沒有進來進來之後我想我今天講院長我這樣目前為止講都還算很講道理謝謝委員的提醒如果現行送來的修法過程文字當中還不夠周圓我們共同來努力用最高標準的安全部長剛剛有提到雙軌併星所以消防法要修公服法也要修納進倉儲"},{"start":894.158,"end":897.321,"text":"納進倉儲這是確定是我們行政院接下來推動的方向嗎對 是"},{"start":898.584,"end":922.973,"text":"內政部已經在做了院長你講的話很重要因為我剛剛講這是一個跨部的問題部法就牽涉經濟部那請問有沒有相關的一些時程的安排消防法已經排了嘛對不對公服法什麼時候會有進度院長院長回來公服法不是內政部的工廠管理輔導法在經濟部我們趕快協調經濟部可以排進去什麼時候會有一個明確的時程因為是經濟部主管我們盡快來請院長我會來請經濟部盡快排定好會後趕快回覆時間跟委員報告"},{"start":932.662,"end":934.09,"text":"好,謝謝牛委員,也謝謝卓院長"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:20:58.579000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:20:58.759000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:20:59.499000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:21:02.581000+08:00","text":"行政院長、內政部長有請。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-08T10:21:02.581000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:21:13.686000+08:00","text":"請院長還有內政部長備詢。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T10:21:13.686000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:21:13.866000+08:00","text":"牛委員好。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:21:14.606000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:21:19.329000+08:00","text":"院長早安，我們就直接進入主題，今天時間比較短、15分鐘而已。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:21:20.189000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:21:23.851000+08:00","text":"我想請問一下，您會親自主持行政院大部分的院會，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T10:21:23.851000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:21:24.851000+08:00","text":"行政院會……","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:21:24.851000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:21:25.851000+08:00","text":"行政院院會嘛，你會主持，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T10:21:25.851000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:21:26.851000+08:00","text":"每周四都會主持。","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:21:26.851000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:21:27.851000+08:00","text":"這個會找各地的縣市政府一起開會，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T10:21:27.851000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:21:28.851000+08:00","text":"六都的首長都會來列席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:21:28.851000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:21:29.851000+08:00","text":"六都首長有時候會來列席參與，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:21:24.952000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:21:26.314000+08:00","text":"桃園市政府其實很常在行政院院會的時候提到，針對倉儲跟危險物品的納管、談消防的議題，請問院長知不知道這背後的原因跟故事是什麼？","quality":0.328},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T10:21:45.108000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:21:48.752000+08:00","text":"之前有發生過大火的事件。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:21:48.752000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:21:49.752000+08:00","text":"之前有發生大火的事件嘛。","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T10:21:49.613000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:21:55.399000+08:00","text":"大家認為很需要就管制品做一個有效的安全維護。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:21:55.899000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:21:56.840000+08:00","text":"哪幾場大火，院長有印象嗎？敬鵬。","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:21:56.840000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:21:58.042000+08:00","text":"敬鵬是工廠，還有呢？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T10:21:58.042000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:21:59.042000+08:00","text":"明揚，屏東的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:21:59.042000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:22:00.042000+08:00","text":"屏東的是明揚，也是工廠。","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T10:22:00.042000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:22:01.042000+08:00","text":"另外是在南部。","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:22:01.042000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:22:02.042000+08:00","text":"有一點概念，但是沒有回答問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:22:01.891000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:22:21.383000+08:00","text":"我公布答案，是2022年3月10號的美福倉儲大火，這一把大火是桃園人心中永遠的痛！","quality":0.774},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:22:22.024000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:22:45.284000+08:00","text":"因為它帶來的公害跟後面的損失是不計其數的，不只是美福的大火，4天過後的2022年3月14號，在楊梅的家樂福同樣也是倉儲發生了大火事件；倉儲大火也不只是發生在桃園，到了2023年8月1號、去年的時候，林口的PChome一樣是倉儲的大火。","quality":0.937},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:22:45.785000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:23:00.656000+08:00","text":"每一次火災的規模都很大，救災的成本也非常高，證明了倉儲是火災的熱點、是公害的溫床、更是消防人員救災的巨大負擔，院長跟部長應該不會反對這樣的說法吧？","quality":0.985},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:23:01.497000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:23:04.119000+08:00","text":"這幾把大火我講了大家應該就有印象了，對不對？同意。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:23:04.879000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:23:05.579000+08:00","text":"同意，對不對？好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:23:08.401000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:23:14.163000+08:00","text":"院長可能會想說，突然之間在這邊提兩年前發生的美福大火，為什麼要舊案重提？","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:23:15.264000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:23:19.786000+08:00","text":"這我要跟院長講講故事，院長，你知不知道或部長知不知道美福大火的公害一共影響了多少人？","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T10:23:22.443000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:23:26.886000+08:00","text":"相當地多，因為它燃燒肉類……","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:23:27.007000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:23:34.872000+08:00","text":"它燃燒的時間非常地長，影響的人數數萬人，甚至到十萬人之普，因為那個臭味基本上北桃園的市民都聞到了！","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:23:35.253000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:23:37.614000+08:00","text":"部長跟院長曾經聞過火場的味道嗎？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T10:23:37.614000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:23:38.915000+08:00","text":"我知道、我有去過。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:23:38.915000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:23:40.176000+08:00","text":"那個其實是滿可怕！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:23:40.697000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:23:43.919000+08:00","text":"所以火災不只是消防人員的損傷而已，它其實也是公害的來源。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:23:45.929000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:24:19.115000+08:00","text":"今天不只是救災的問題，我要跟院長、部長講的是，有一小群人叫美福大火公害自救會，因為這場大火發生之後，後來我們發現政府其實沒有什麼樣的法源依據去裁罰相關的廠商，公害造成的損失到最後由市民自行承擔，有一小群人看不過去只好抱團自救，自己組了自救會去跟美福這個廠商打官司，依我看這叫做小蝦米對大鯨魚、小市民戰大財團！","quality":0.965},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:24:19.115000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:24:41.786000+08:00","text":"他們希望透過市民站出來的力量，一方面他們要為自己討一點公道，二方面更重要的是，曾經在我擔任議員進行協助的時候他們就拜託我們，希望透過他們站出來打官司的這個行為，讓各級政府重視這樣子的倉儲大火悲劇不能再重演！","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:24:42.486000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:24:52.113000+08:00","text":"那個時候我是桃園市的議員，後來我順利……它也在我們同一個選區，在我們蘆竹、南崁地區，我現在是桃園第一選區的選區民意代表，受人之託，忠人之事，悲劇不重演是我和我選區鄉親跟自救會共同的目標！","quality":0.699},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:24:52.113000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:25:01.245000+08:00","text":"現在我要請問院長、請問部長，這應不應該也是我跟行政院行政團隊共同的目標，讓倉儲大火的悲劇不重演？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T10:25:01.245000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:25:10.377000+08:00","text":"是的，身為民意代表，一則是為小市民做代言人，一則是監督行政機關，市民有任何需要，您出來代言，對的，行政機關有任何做得不夠的，你提出檢討，我們來做，這也是對的，共同面對解決人民的問題。","quality":0.101},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:25:10.377000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:25:10.537000+08:00","text":"解決問題，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:25:10.537000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:25:34.064000+08:00","text":"所以這個方向目前這樣回答本席還算是非常滿意的，我們希望這樣子的大火悲劇不重演，政府能夠重視並且進行制度上的調整。","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:25:34.664000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:25:43.387000+08:00","text":"今天是內政組的質詢，立法院也正在排審消防法，所以我們還是回到救災的角度來討論這樣的事情。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:25:44.407000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:25:57.552000+08:00","text":"回到防災、救災的主軸，請問院長，部長要支援也可以，我剛剛有講到桃園的兩個大火，一個是美福，一個是家樂福，關於家樂福的大火，救災的時間多久、動員了多少資源，兩位有概念嗎？","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T10:25:57.552000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:25:58.985000+08:00","text":"抱歉，我不清楚，我知道非常多，但是您非常關心有關消防人員或者是附近居民的安全，我們也都非常地清楚。好吧！","quality":0.043},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:25:58.985000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:25:59.865000+08:00","text":"誠實也是上策，但我會希望有一個數字。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:26:00.746000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:26:02.526000+08:00","text":"我就把數字公布給兩位看，救災時間40個小時20分鐘，接近2天的時間，動員的數量消防車47輛、消防人員259人次，這聽起來就已經夠累了、夠勞民傷財了，對不對？","quality":0.3},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:26:18.116000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:26:18.877000+08:00","text":"那美福呢？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:26:32.786000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:26:34.186000+08:00","text":"要不要估一下這樣子的數字？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T10:26:34.907000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:26:36.247000+08:00","text":"我記得幾天吧？7天？","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T10:26:37.267000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:26:38.708000+08:00","text":"主要是悶燒。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:26:38.708000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:26:39.128000+08:00","text":"悶燒，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:26:39.128000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:27:18.508000+08:00","text":"我告訴兩位不只7天，美福大火救災，就是實際上在壓制火勢的時間是161個小時，差不多是7天左右，可是因為悶燒、因為復燃、因為倉儲的結構讓救災的難度提升，所以這個復燃、悶燒使得大家束手無策，後來出動了大鋼牙這些相關的機具，各式各樣的車次576輛次，整個悶燒的時間21天，超過500個小時，一場火災動員的消防人力2,163人次，這數字應該滿驚人的吧！","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:27:18.628000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:27:23.111000+08:00","text":"院長，請問消防弟兄辛不辛苦？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T10:27:23.572000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:27:24.152000+08:00","text":"非常辛苦、非常危險。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:27:24.552000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:27:29.016000+08:00","text":"我們應不應該從制度等等一些角度，去避免這樣的事情再次發生？","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T10:27:30.750000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:27:34.199000+08:00","text":"如果從源頭能夠來避免這個事情，這會減少他們的勤務量。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:27:35.002000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:27:54.933000+08:00","text":"好，那麼這兩場倉儲大火為什麼這麼地勞民傷財，我們就直接講是因為倉儲的火載量，這我曾經在內政委員會質詢的時候，消防署長答得非常快，所謂的火載量就是單位面積可燃物完全燃燒時候產生的熱能，就是它易不易燃、容不容易引起火災。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:27:54.933000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:28:13.883000+08:00","text":"倉儲易燃的火載量不只不低於工廠，甚至高於工廠甚多，有的四倍、五倍不只，所以剛剛開頭我跟兩位在質詢的時候，兩位想到的第一個火災是桃園的敬鵬工業大火，想到的是屏東的明揚大火，這是工廠，對不對？","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:28:13.883000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:28:20.267000+08:00","text":"但是倉儲易燃的性質跟燃燒的強度，其實是不低於工廠的狀況。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:28:20.627000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:28:29.452000+08:00","text":"請問院長現在倉儲的部分，其存放、物流倉庫、冷鏈倉庫等等，他們在消防裡面有沒有被正式地納管？","quality":0.825},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T10:28:30.827000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:28:43.050000+08:00","text":"我們曾經在院會裡面正式報告也討論過這件事情，所以我們對於這個管制的方式，也有請內政部消防署能夠跟地方政府要加強合作配合來處理這件事情。","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:28:43.671000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:28:56.854000+08:00","text":"你講說要加強配合，然後應該要做，對，我們都知道應該要做，剛剛我已經講了，不管是基於為小市民來做代言，或者是從救災人力的節省跟預防的角度來說，我們這邊都有非常好的共識，對不對？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:28:56.854000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:28:59.375000+08:00","text":"就是我們應該要做這件事情，但現在做了沒有？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:28:59.375000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:29:00.375000+08:00","text":"我們先面對問題嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T10:29:00.375000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:29:01.375000+08:00","text":"首先，危險物品放在哪裡，這個圖資的資料一定要非常地清楚，才不會讓消防員進到一個不知名的危險狀態裡面去。","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:29:00.056000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:29:00.296000+08:00","text":"現在清不清楚？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T10:29:00.296000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:29:14.652000+08:00","text":"他應該……","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T10:29:14.652000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:29:15.673000+08:00","text":"我可不可以補充一下？可以。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T10:29:16.234000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:29:43.999000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告一下，就消防員救災的角度來看，在工廠管理輔導法以及消防法裡面要注意的是有關工廠在儲存這些物資的時候是否有確實申報，尤其是關於危險物質的部分，關於這一點，我們從消防署的角度上面已經有加強，也就是說，出去救災的消防人員去救災的時候，馬上就能知道工廠裡面到底儲放什麼樣的物質，這是最重要的一點。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T10:29:43.999000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:29:49.882000+08:00","text":"再來，第一個，倉儲跟工廠的所在地或是公司的所在地，有時候距離比較遙遠。沒錯。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T10:29:50.762000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:30:05.671000+08:00","text":"所以它的防火或者是滅火措施被忽略掉，這一點我們會從工廠管理輔導法跟消防法一起來補足，會跟縣市政府來努力改善現在我們認為會發生比較大的火警，甚至造成比較大的傷亡部分做改善。","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:30:06.191000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:30:19.056000+08:00","text":"回答得不錯，但差了一點勇氣，其實我希望院長就直面問題，就以現行的機制來講，不論納管也好、申報也好，都還有若干的改進之處，其實是不夠的，包含我們現在的倉儲，其實定位是不明確的。","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:30:19.456000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:30:27.038000+08:00","text":"我跟你講，工廠很明確，剛剛部長也講了，工廠有一套所謂的工廠管理輔導法，裡面消防的設備、配置等等一些配套措施……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T10:30:27.038000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:30:28.038000+08:00","text":"倉儲要納進去。","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:30:28.038000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:30:29.038000+08:00","text":"但是倉儲有在工廠管理輔導法裡面嗎？","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T10:30:29.038000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:30:30.038000+08:00","text":"希望能夠納進去。","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:30:30.038000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:30:31.038000+08:00","text":"其實是沒有的，對不對？對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:30:31.038000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:30:32.038000+08:00","text":"那麼以目前消防法的規範，也沒有任何的條文去提到倉儲的部分應該要怎麼處理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T10:30:29.159000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:30:33.442000+08:00","text":"不過，報告委員，消防署非常地認真，就是只要它有申報的話，有任何火災的狀況，站在我們的立場，一定都會是馳援的。","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:30:47.582000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:30:48.043000+08:00","text":"當然是馳援嘛！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:30:48.583000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:30:56.511000+08:00","text":"我們現在講的是，我看到火災的時候，我總是感念消防弟兄的付出，甚至看到他們犧牲的時候，我是非常非常傷痛的。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:30:56.831000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:31:07.942000+08:00","text":"但是我們之所以去強調這個事情就是防災要重於救災，如果前期的配套措施做得好，前期的制度設計是好的，預防於前，其實就是幫第一線要進去打火的弟兄減輕負擔，對不對？","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:31:07.942000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:31:17.289000+08:00","text":"可是現行的規制裡面，倉儲也好，部分工廠甚至在申報的部分，它其實是不夠確實的。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:31:17.770000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:31:23.753000+08:00","text":"我現在看到行政院提出的消防法版本裡面，本席當然就有提自己的版本，原因是什麼呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:31:24.254000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:31:39.443000+08:00","text":"因為在行政院的消防法有兩個問題，第一個，倉儲依然是被定位為一個不明確的角度，針對工廠，它當然做了若干的修正；針對消防員的權益，也做了若干的努力，這些本席都看在眼裡，但是倉儲還是被漏掉啦！","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:31:40.164000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:31:56.596000+08:00","text":"本席的選區發生了這麼重要的事情，桃園市政府也在院會裡面屢次提及這件事情的重要，但我在行政院院版的消防法裡面並沒有看到相關條文的修正，所以我今天一定要用總質詢的時間來跟院長與部長做釐清，原因就在這個地方。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:31:56.596000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:32:04.677000+08:00","text":"本席提出意見來就教於兩位，倉儲當然應該要納管，本席的主張是，版本裡面的第二十一條之一就有明確提到，不只是工廠和存放化學物品的地方，一定規模以上的倉庫，平時就應該要備置，並且申報儲存物品的數量、種類及搶救必要的資訊。","quality":0.255},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:32:04.677000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:32:05.558000+08:00","text":"我為什麼要把一定規模以上的倉庫來做納入呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:32:05.658000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:32:06.219000+08:00","text":"當然是因為先易後難嘛！","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:32:25.219000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:32:52.555000+08:00","text":"規模大的，它造成的影響、災損等等的強度是比較高的，我甚至在裡面也有一定的授權條款，也就是哪一些的倉庫、哪一些的類型可以讓中央主管機關來擬定，這樣子我們就可以針對不同型態的，比如倉儲裡面存放的東西其實五花八門，它存的是易燃的油、化學品、紡織的棉布、紙尿褲、紙類品，比如林口PChome的倉儲裡面都是衛生紙，對不對？","quality":0.965},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:32:52.555000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:32:54.075000+08:00","text":"那燒起來也是一發不可收拾。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:32:54.695000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:33:03.359000+08:00","text":"不能因為它是倉儲而不是工廠，然後就在這個地方被漏掉，本席覺得這是非常奇怪的，所以在我們的版本裡面就提要備置並且申報。","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:33:03.359000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:33:18.249000+08:00","text":"我講什麼叫備置、什麼叫申報，也是第二個問題，就是我們在行政院目前消防法的版本裡面，只看到了備置，備置的意思就是這個工廠的負責人，他只要準備好裡面有些什麼就好，但是他的準備不見得要讓政府知道啊！","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:33:19.090000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:33:27.337000+08:00","text":"他的備置萬一放在工廠的抽屜裡面，大火燒起來，它就在火場裡面的時候，則備置變成流於表面，我是覺得蠻可惜的。","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:33:27.718000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:33:31.742000+08:00","text":"所以本席在這邊主張，不只是要備置，也應該要申報，對不對？","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:33:31.742000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:33:39.289000+08:00","text":"你要讓內政部、讓消防弟兄非常清楚地了解可能發生火警地方的狀態是什麼，這樣才會加強防災的效果。","quality":0.721},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:33:40.179000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:33:40.940000+08:00","text":"院長、部長，我現在講到這邊，大家同意嗎？","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T10:33:40.940000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:33:55.499500+08:00","text":"報告委員，我想您的觀點非常正確，但是我希望它能夠雙軌進行，也就是工廠管理輔導法才能確切管到工廠的負責人；在消防法裡面，是要保障消防人員的安全。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T10:33:55.499500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:34:10.059000+08:00","text":"如果可以雙軌進行的話，不管未來有大面積或者是多重的、有可能的易燃物質的話，必須要做申報，這樣子才有可能真正管理到倉儲的安全。","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:34:10.059000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:34:30.944000+08:00","text":"我也提醒一下兩位，監察院在113年就針對明揚大火的糾正裡面也有講，環境部、經濟部、內政部、勞動部無視明揚對公共安全及職業安全衛生的危害，僅以場所管制，並期望業者主動申報，顯緣木求魚。","quality":0.418},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:34:30.944000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:34:42.811000+08:00","text":"這就是我認為法條有若干缺失可以改善的地方，因為你只是期待它申報，它不申報的時候，到時候消防員就殉職了，我們非常、非常不希望看到像這樣子的悲劇繼續重演。","quality":0.928},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:34:43.972000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:35:04.421000+08:00","text":"沒有預防於前，造成的後果我想是難以承載的，輕叫做經濟損失，中叫做公害頻傳，重的話會出人命、犧牲消防弟兄，所以我希望在消防法修法的過程之中，行政院可以更開放的態度接納不同的意見。","quality":0.988},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:35:04.421000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:35:15.566000+08:00","text":"我剛剛聽總質詢這樣一路談下來，其實我們的溝通是非常順暢的，部長跟院長也用非常開放的心態，接受了倉儲納管這樣子的一個概念，我們在修法的時候可以一樣用這樣子的心態來討論嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T10:35:16.866000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:35:20.808000+08:00","text":"也謝謝委員，希望能夠支持消防法趕快三讀通過，我們能有更多的保障。","quality":0.655},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:35:20.808000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:35:25.831000+08:00","text":"我們當然支持，前面有一段還沒有修，就是因為我們這很重要的版本還沒有進來。","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T10:35:25.831000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:35:26.831000+08:00","text":"因為等國民黨的黨團……","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:35:25.831000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:35:29.233000+08:00","text":"等進來之後……院長，我想我今天目前為止講的都還算講道理嘛？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T10:35:29.773000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:35:36.897000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員的提醒，如果現行送來的法，修法過程中文字還不夠周延，我們共同來努力，採最高標準的安全。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:35:37.317000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:35:41.380000+08:00","text":"部長剛剛有提到雙軌並行，所以消防法要修，工輔法也要修？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T10:35:41.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:35:41.400000+08:00","text":"是，納進倉儲。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:35:45.158000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:35:48.301000+08:00","text":"納進倉儲，這個確定是行政院接下來推動的方向嗎？對，是。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T10:35:49.584000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:35:50.424000+08:00","text":"內政部已經在做了。對。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:35:50.904000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:35:53.385000+08:00","text":"院長，你講的話很重要，因為我剛剛講這是一個跨部會的問題。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T10:35:53.385000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:35:54.385000+08:00","text":"剛剛詢問部長，他已經在做，我們……","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:35:53.385000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:35:57.687000+08:00","text":"這部法牽涉到經濟部，請問有沒有相關的一些時程安排？","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:35:58.287000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:35:59.608000+08:00","text":"消防法已經排了，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:35:59.908000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:36:00.688000+08:00","text":"工輔法什麼時候會有進度？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:36:03.489000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:36:05.530000+08:00","text":"請院長回，工輔法又不是內政部的。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T10:36:05.530000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:36:06.530000+08:00","text":"儘快排定。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T10:36:05.670000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:36:09.071000+08:00","text":"工廠管理輔導法在經濟部，我們會趕快協調經濟部可以排進去。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:36:09.291000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:36:10.491000+08:00","text":"什麼時候會有一個明確的時程？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T10:36:10.852000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:36:12.632000+08:00","text":"因為是經濟部主管，我們儘快來協調。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:36:12.632000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:36:13.632000+08:00","text":"所以我才要問院長嘛，對不對？","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T10:36:12.752000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:36:12.912000+08:00","text":"我會請經濟部儘快排定。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:36:12.992000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:36:13.232000+08:00","text":"好，會後趕快回復，好嗎？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T10:36:13.733000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:36:13.953000+08:00","text":"直接跟委員報告。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-10-08T10:36:13.953000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:36:24.165000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。謝謝。","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-08T10:36:24.165000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:36:25.090000+08:00","text":"謝謝牛委員也謝謝卓院長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-08T10:36:25.590000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:36:31.875714+08:00","text":"報告院會，休息10分鐘，休息之後繼續進行質詢，現在休息。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-08T10:36:32.175714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:36:33.318571+08:00","text":"休息（10時36分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-08T10:36:33.618571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:36:35.332857+08:00","text":"繼續開會（10時47分）","quality":0}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-08T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:20:51 - 10:36:28","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","gazette":{"lineno":426,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（10時20分）謝謝主席。行政院長、內政部長有請。"],["主席：請院長還有內政部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：牛委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：院長早安，我們就直接進入主題，今天時間比較短、15分鐘而已。我想請問一下，您會親自主持行政院大部分的院會，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：行政院會……"],["牛委員煦庭：行政院院會嘛，你會主持，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：每周四都會主持。"],["牛委員煦庭：這個會找各地的縣市政府一起開會，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：六都的首長都會來列席。"],["牛委員煦庭：六都首長有時候會來列席參與，對不對？桃園市政府其實很常在行政院院會的時候提到，針對倉儲跟危險物品的納管、談消防的議題，請問院長知不知道這背後的原因跟故事是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：之前有發生過大火的事件。"],["牛委員煦庭：之前有發生大火的事件嘛。"],["卓院長榮泰：大家認為很需要就管制品做一個有效的安全維護。"],["牛委員煦庭：哪幾場大火，院長有印象嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：敬鵬。"],["牛委員煦庭：敬鵬是工廠，還有呢？"],["劉部長世芳：明揚，屏東的。"],["牛委員煦庭：屏東的是明揚，也是工廠。"],["卓院長榮泰：另外是在南部。"],["牛委員煦庭：有一點概念，但是沒有回答問題。我公布答案，是2022年3月10號的美福倉儲大火，這一把大火是桃園人心中永遠的痛！因為它帶來的公害跟後面的損失是不計其數的，不只是美福的大火，4天過後的2022年3月14號，在楊梅的家樂福同樣也是倉儲發生了大火事件；倉儲大火也不只是發生在桃園，到了2023年8月1號、去年的時候，林口的PChome一樣是倉儲的大火。每一次火災的規模都很大，救災的成本也非常高，證明了倉儲是火災的熱點、是公害的溫床、更是消防人員救災的巨大負擔，院長跟部長應該不會反對這樣的說法吧？這幾把大火我講了大家應該就有印象了，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：同意。"],["牛委員煦庭：同意，對不對？好。院長可能會想說，突然之間在這邊提兩年前發生的美福大火，為什麼要舊案重提？這我要跟院長講講故事，院長，你知不知道或部長知不知道美福大火的公害一共影響了多少人？"],["劉部長世芳：相當地多，因為它燃燒肉類……"],["牛委員煦庭：它燃燒的時間非常地長，影響的人數數萬人，甚至到十萬人之普，因為那個臭味基本上北桃園的市民都聞到了！部長跟院長曾經聞過火場的味道嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我知道、我有去過。"],["牛委員煦庭：那個其實是滿可怕！所以火災不只是消防人員的損傷而已，它其實也是公害的來源。今天不只是救災的問題，我要跟院長、部長講的是，有一小群人叫美福大火公害自救會，因為這場大火發生之後，後來我們發現政府其實沒有什麼樣的法源依據去裁罰相關的廠商，公害造成的損失到最後由市民自行承擔，有一小群人看不過去只好抱團自救，自己組了自救會去跟美福這個廠商打官司，依我看這叫做小蝦米對大鯨魚、小市民戰大財團！他們希望透過市民站出來的力量，一方面他們要為自己討一點公道，二方面更重要的是，曾經在我擔任議員進行協助的時候他們就拜託我們，希望透過他們站出來打官司的這個行為，讓各級政府重視這樣子的倉儲大火悲劇不能再重演！那個時候我是桃園市的議員，後來我順利……它也在我們同一個選區，在我們蘆竹、南崁地區，我現在是桃園第一選區的選區民意代表，受人之託，忠人之事，悲劇不重演是我和我選區鄉親跟自救會共同的目標！現在我要請問院長、請問部長，這應不應該也是我跟行政院行政團隊共同的目標，讓倉儲大火的悲劇不重演？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的，身為民意代表，一則是為小市民做代言人，一則是監督行政機關，市民有任何需要，您出來代言，對的，行政機關有任何做得不夠的，你提出檢討，我們來做，這也是對的，共同面對解決人民的問題。"],["牛委員煦庭：解決問題，對不對？所以這個方向目前這樣回答本席還算是非常滿意的，我們希望這樣子的大火悲劇不重演，政府能夠重視並且進行制度上的調整。今天是內政組的質詢，立法院也正在排審消防法，所以我們還是回到救災的角度來討論這樣的事情。","回到防災、救災的主軸，請問院長，部長要支援也可以，我剛剛有講到桃園的兩個大火，一個是美福，一個是家樂福，關於家樂福的大火，救災的時間多久、動員了多少資源，兩位有概念嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：抱歉，我不清楚，我知道非常多，但是您非常關心有關消防人員或者是附近居民的安全，我們也都非常地清楚。"],["牛委員煦庭：好吧！誠實也是上策，但我會希望有一個數字。我就把數字公布給兩位看，救災時間40個小時20分鐘，接近2天的時間，動員的數量消防車47輛、消防人員259人次，這聽起來就已經夠累了、夠勞民傷財了，對不對？那美福呢？要不要估一下這樣子的數字？"],["卓院長榮泰：我記得幾天吧？"],["牛委員煦庭：7天？"],["劉部長世芳：主要是悶燒。"],["牛委員煦庭：悶燒，對不對？我告訴兩位不只7天，美福大火救災，就是實際上在壓制火勢的時間是161個小時，差不多是7天左右，可是因為悶燒、因為復燃、因為倉儲的結構讓救災的難度提升，所以這個復燃、悶燒使得大家束手無策，後來出動了大鋼牙這些相關的機具，各式各樣的車次576輛次，整個悶燒的時間21天，超過500個小時，一場火災動員的消防人力2,163人次，這數字應該滿驚人的吧！院長，請問消防弟兄辛不辛苦？"],["卓院長榮泰：非常辛苦、非常危險。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們應不應該從制度等等一些角度，去避免這樣的事情再次發生？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果從源頭能夠來避免這個事情，這會減少他們的勤務量。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，那麼這兩場倉儲大火為什麼這麼地勞民傷財，我們就直接講是因為倉儲的火載量，這我曾經在內政委員會質詢的時候，消防署長答得非常快，所謂的火載量就是單位面積可燃物完全燃燒時候產生的熱能，就是它易不易燃、容不容易引起火災。倉儲易燃的火載量不只不低於工廠，甚至高於工廠甚多，有的四倍、五倍不只，所以剛剛開頭我跟兩位在質詢的時候，兩位想到的第一個火災是桃園的敬鵬工業大火，想到的是屏東的明揚大火，這是工廠，對不對？但是倉儲易燃的性質跟燃燒的強度，其實是不低於工廠的狀況。請問院長現在倉儲的部分，其存放、物流倉庫、冷鏈倉庫等等，他們在消防裡面有沒有被正式地納管？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們曾經在院會裡面正式報告也討論過這件事情，所以我們對於這個管制的方式，也有請內政部消防署能夠跟地方政府要加強合作配合來處理這件事情。"],["牛委員煦庭：你講說要加強配合，然後應該要做，對，我們都知道應該要做，剛剛我已經講了，不管是基於為小市民來做代言，或者是從救災人力的節省跟預防的角度來說，我們這邊都有非常好的共識，對不對？就是我們應該要做這件事情，但現在做了沒有？我們先面對問題嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：首先，危險物品放在哪裡，這個圖資的資料一定要非常地清楚，才不會讓消防員進到一個不知名的危險狀態裡面去。"],["牛委員煦庭：現在清不清楚？"],["卓院長榮泰：他應該……"],["劉部長世芳：我可不可以補充一下？"],["牛委員煦庭：可以。"],["劉部長世芳：跟委員報告一下，就消防員救災的角度來看，在工廠管理輔導法以及消防法裡面要注意的是有關工廠在儲存這些物資的時候是否有確實申報，尤其是關於危險物質的部分，關於這一點，我們從消防署的角度上面已經有加強，也就是說，出去救災的消防人員去救災的時候，馬上就能知道工廠裡面到底儲放什麼樣的物質，這是最重要的一點。","再來，第一個，倉儲跟工廠的所在地或是公司的所在地，有時候距離比較遙遠。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒錯。"],["劉部長世芳：所以它的防火或者是滅火措施被忽略掉，這一點我們會從工廠管理輔導法跟消防法一起來補足，會跟縣市政府來努力改善現在我們認為會發生比較大的火警，甚至造成比較大的傷亡部分做改善。"],["牛委員煦庭：回答得不錯，但差了一點勇氣，其實我希望院長就直面問題，就以現行的機制來講，不論納管也好、申報也好，都還有若干的改進之處，其實是不夠的，包含我們現在的倉儲，其實定位是不明確的。我跟你講，工廠很明確，剛剛部長也講了，工廠有一套所謂的工廠管理輔導法，裡面消防的設備、配置等等一些配套措施……"],["劉部長世芳：倉儲要納進去。"],["牛委員煦庭：但是倉儲有在工廠管理輔導法裡面嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：希望能夠納進去。"],["牛委員煦庭：其實是沒有的，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：那麼以目前消防法的規範，也沒有任何的條文去提到倉儲的部分應該要怎麼處理。"],["劉部長世芳：不過，報告委員，消防署非常地認真，就是只要它有申報的話，有任何火災的狀況，站在我們的立場，一定都會是馳援的。"],["牛委員煦庭：當然是馳援嘛！我們現在講的是，我看到火災的時候，我總是感念消防弟兄的付出，甚至看到他們犧牲的時候，我是非常非常傷痛的。但是我們之所以去強調這個事情就是防災要重於救災，如果前期的配套措施做得好，前期的制度設計是好的，預防於前，其實就是幫第一線要進去打火的弟兄減輕負擔，對不對？可是現行的規制裡面，倉儲也好，部分工廠甚至在申報的部分，它其實是不夠確實的。","我現在看到行政院提出的消防法版本裡面，本席當然就有提自己的版本，原因是什麼呢？因為在行政院的消防法有兩個問題，第一個，倉儲依然是被定位為一個不明確的角度，針對工廠，它當然做了若干的修正；針對消防員的權益，也做了若干的努力，這些本席都看在眼裡，但是倉儲還是被漏掉啦！本席的選區發生了這麼重要的事情，桃園市政府也在院會裡面屢次提及這件事情的重要，但我在行政院院版的消防法裡面並沒有看到相關條文的修正，所以我今天一定要用總質詢的時間來跟院長與部長做釐清，原因就在這個地方。","本席提出意見來就教於兩位，倉儲當然應該要納管，本席的主張是，版本裡面的第二十一條之一就有明確提到，不只是工廠和存放化學物品的地方，一定規模以上的倉庫，平時就應該要備置，並且申報儲存物品的數量、種類及搶救必要的資訊。我為什麼要把一定規模以上的倉庫來做納入呢？當然是因為先易後難嘛！規模大的，它造成的影響、災損等等的強度是比較高的，我甚至在裡面也有一定的授權條款，也就是哪一些的倉庫、哪一些的類型可以讓中央主管機關來擬定，這樣子我們就可以針對不同型態的，比如倉儲裡面存放的東西其實五花八門，它存的是易燃的油、化學品、紡織的棉布、紙尿褲、紙類品，比如林口PChome的倉儲裡面都是衛生紙，對不對？那燒起來也是一發不可收拾。不能因為它是倉儲而不是工廠，然後就在這個地方被漏掉，本席覺得這是非常奇怪的，所以在我們的版本裡面就提要備置並且申報。","我講什麼叫備置、什麼叫申報，也是第二個問題，就是我們在行政院目前消防法的版本裡面，只看到了備置，備置的意思就是這個工廠的負責人，他只要準備好裡面有些什麼就好，但是他的準備不見得要讓政府知道啊！他的備置萬一放在工廠的抽屜裡面，大火燒起來，它就在火場裡面的時候，則備置變成流於表面，我是覺得蠻可惜的。所以本席在這邊主張，不只是要備置，也應該要申報，對不對？你要讓內政部、讓消防弟兄非常清楚地了解可能發生火警地方的狀態是什麼，這樣才會加強防災的效果。院長、部長，我現在講到這邊，大家同意嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我想您的觀點非常正確，但是我希望它能夠雙軌進行，也就是工廠管理輔導法才能確切管到工廠的負責人；在消防法裡面，是要保障消防人員的安全。如果可以雙軌進行的話，不管未來有大面積或者是多重的、有可能的易燃物質的話，必須要做申報，這樣子才有可能真正管理到倉儲的安全。"],["牛委員煦庭：我也提醒一下兩位，監察院在113年就針對明揚大火的糾正裡面也有講，環境部、經濟部、內政部、勞動部無視明揚對公共安全及職業安全衛生的危害，僅以場所管制，並期望業者主動申報，顯緣木求魚。這就是我認為法條有若干缺失可以改善的地方，因為你只是期待它申報，它不申報的時候，到時候消防員就殉職了，我們非常、非常不希望看到像這樣子的悲劇繼續重演。沒有預防於前，造成的後果我想是難以承載的，輕叫做經濟損失，中叫做公害頻傳，重的話會出人命、犧牲消防弟兄，所以我希望在消防法修法的過程之中，行政院可以更開放的態度接納不同的意見。我剛剛聽總質詢這樣一路談下來，其實我們的溝通是非常順暢的，部長跟院長也用非常開放的心態，接受了倉儲納管這樣子的一個概念，我們在修法的時候可以一樣用這樣子的心態來討論嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：也謝謝委員，希望能夠支持消防法趕快三讀通過，我們能有更多的保障。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們當然支持，前面有一段還沒有修，就是因為我們這很重要的版本還沒有進來。"],["劉部長世芳：因為等國民黨的黨團……"],["牛委員煦庭：等進來之後……院長，我想我今天目前為止講的都還算講道理嘛？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員的提醒，如果現行送來的法，修法過程中文字還不夠周延，我們共同來努力，採最高標準的安全。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長剛剛有提到雙軌並行，所以消防法要修，工輔法也要修？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，納進倉儲。"],["牛委員煦庭：納進倉儲，這個確定是行政院接下來推動的方向嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：對，是。"],["卓院長榮泰：內政部已經在做了。"],["劉部長世芳：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：院長，你講的話很重要，因為我剛剛講這是一個跨部會的問題。"],["卓院長榮泰：剛剛詢問部長，他已經在做，我們……"],["牛委員煦庭：這部法牽涉到經濟部，請問有沒有相關的一些時程安排？消防法已經排了，對不對？工輔法什麼時候會有進度？請院長回，工輔法又不是內政部的。"],["卓院長榮泰：儘快排定。"],["劉部長世芳：工廠管理輔導法在經濟部，我們會趕快協調經濟部可以排進去。"],["牛委員煦庭：什麼時候會有一個明確的時程？"],["劉部長世芳：因為是經濟部主管，我們儘快來協調。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以我才要問院長嘛，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：我會請經濟部儘快排定。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，會後趕快回復，好嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：直接跟委員報告。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝牛委員也謝謝卓院長。","報告院會，休息10分鐘，休息之後繼續進行質詢，現在休息。","休息（10時36分）","繼續開會（10時47分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":187,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-3","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","麥玉珍","沈伯洋","廖先翔","葉元之","黃仁","牛煦庭","王育敏","王世堅","高金素梅","盧縣一","邱議瑩","吳沛憶","王美惠","馬文君","林岱樺","徐巧芯"],"page_start":107,"meetingDate":["2024-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第3次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1137701_00007"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}