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有去過那你有跟當地的居民聊過天嗎"},{"start":35.868,"end":42.378,"text":"你在你的施政報告裡面有提到說你每天最重要的工作你都是把人放在第一優先"},{"start":43.874,"end":43.954,"text":"國土計劃法"},{"start":63.052,"end":74.934,"text":"就是他明年4月要上路的這件事情其實很多的農民特別是在農業縣農民都非常的焦慮他們的焦慮感他們的心聲你有感受到嗎"},{"start":76.581,"end":93.615,"text":"我們有充分感受到所以我們是請農業部跟內政部積極跟大家來說明是不是有不了解的地方試圖能夠讓大家了解之後這個法是不是能夠順利的推動對我跟部長我跟院長報告到目前為止農民的焦慮沒有解除"},{"start":94.235,"end":105.835,"text":"我最近才上到阿里山山上跟山上的農民在晚上的時間大家坐下來聊天我認真的聽他們的心聲我現在也要把他們的心聲講給院長聽"},{"start":108.015,"end":123.88,"text":"他們非常的焦慮有的人他其實是已經很早就上山去開墾在那邊工作他很擔心這個法通過之後他熱愛的這個土地他以後沒有辦法在那邊工作有的人在那邊"},{"start":124.66,"end":140.738,"text":"他主先留給他們的茶農土地但是兄弟分一分之後土地沒有多少但是我現場很感動的是有一個親農他的兒子大學二年級他也來現場他反映他的心聲他假日他現在在幫他爸爸工作"},{"start":141.198,"end":141.318,"text":"王育敏議員"},{"start":164.312,"end":170.056,"text":"阿里山這樣一個地方是國際觀光著名的地標我們都希望爭取國際觀光客來可以上到阿里山阿里山的產業阿里山的高山茶我不曉得院長有沒有喝過應該有吧"},{"start":195.01,"end":208.893,"text":"國人也非常熱愛他現在還有阿里山的咖啡你有喝過嗎有有喝過嗎量太少了對量太少所以農民他們的焦慮是他們想要在這片土地他們在山上有的很久了他們想要認真的繼續工作繼續經營繼續把"},{"start":213.475,"end":213.875,"text":"王育敏議員"},{"start":236.471,"end":252.745,"text":"但是這一點即使嘉義縣政府開過了說明會嘉義縣政府也已經把這個分區圖送給中央了但是當地你可以看到所有的農民山上的農民一片的焦慮感問題通通都沒有解決"},{"start":253.746,"end":254.226,"text":"阿里山是觀光風景區﹖"},{"start":274.776,"end":302.841,"text":"加一縣政府跟我們討論過我們也許可以按照一個阿里山鄉鄉村地區整體規劃也就是把它變成是個鄉階計劃法的方式來推動剛剛你講的民宿也好或是有關阿里山的這些小商店家都把可能濃縮在裡面變成是個很好的一個地標來發展而不是外界所說的你化成國土計劃法就不能用然後農地的完全不能繼承是完全相反的我想有些人訊息不太明確"},{"start":303.601,"end":332.157,"text":"所以我們很願意再去阿里山鄉跟他們溝通我要跟你說的是農民當天就跟我反映他說縣政府這個答應他們就是說不會化成國一結果送上來你看這張圖這張圖整個阿里山地區國一就是深綠色這一片幾乎通通都是那一天晚上鄉親他們那麼焦慮的座談就是政府嘴巴答應我的跟實質送出來的其實是不一樣的"},{"start":333.117,"end":349.643,"text":"多數地方都被劃為國一了他們知道的情況是這樣他們自己也會去打聽他說原來答應我這個土地不會是國一的也都變成國一了他說不會結果通通劃成國一而且在你們現在的辦法裡面你知道你們的土是怎麼劃出來的嗎你們是用套土"},{"start":351.284,"end":374.122,"text":"鄉親還告訴我的是說都沒有來實際的場勘沒有一個實際找專業人士來探勘就說我的土地說是國一就是國一而且他說縣府就是用資料套土嘛你們就是大筆一揮而且不到兩公頃的地方不是國一的也可以畫為國一為了畫起來的圖更好看更完整"},{"start":375.043,"end":398.159,"text":"我要告訴部長我要告訴院長的是說財產涉及到每一個人民他最在乎的事情但這些事情我們絕對不可以便宜行事也不可以非常粗糙粗暴的就直接套土的方式然後就判定他的土地是屬於什麼農民是可以被溝通的也是可以被說服的"},{"start":399.019,"end":427.209,"text":"那我很感動的是他們是熱愛那個地方想要好好經營他不是想要去徒利變賣土地什麼的喔國益這邊很多的農民他們的情況他們是想要好好留在原地耕作好好保護這塊土地他們也知道水保的重要但是他說可不可以給我們一條路在兼顧保育水保跟他們的產業發展之間給他們一個路可以走可不可以"},{"start":427.469,"end":452.763,"text":"報告委員非常謝謝您的關心我想講的也非常的正確阿里山的這些農民朋友們他們知道國土保育跟它的相接發展兩個都要並重所以我剛剛才跟您提到第一個沒有到現場會刊也表示說功能分區圖送上來的時候我們還沒有完全審查完成審查作業的情況之下如果我們農民有這些意見我們會接到這個意見馬上要去進行就是說是不是真的是國土保育需要的"},{"start":453.263,"end":481.098,"text":"如果你沒有隨便亂畫我們也不希望用這種比較粗糙的方式處理功能分區圖所以我剛有跟委員報告現在縣政府跟我們在處理有關的阿里山鄉的鄉村地區的整體作業就是要回復剛剛所說的這些阿里山的居民們他們對這方面的疑慮那我們願意很誠懇來回答這個問題因為我們相信在阿里山鄉的這些朋友們他們不是為了炒作農地也不是財團炒作都是祖先留下來的"},{"start":481.738,"end":509.314,"text":"而且他們更了解現場的狀況如果他願意把現場的狀況告訴我們讓我們來套疊現在我們所知道的地質上的變化如果沒有真正是屬於潛在危險區或是環境敏感區的話他不應該用這樣比較粗糙的方式全部一塊就把它劃進去那不曉得我就問你你這個補救措施是要怎麼個做法因為我到9月份去到現場的時候根本也沒有這樣的做法也沒有這樣的說明"},{"start":510.174,"end":513.696,"text":"我跟委員報告在總諮詢開始的第一天到現在很多委員都關心過國土計畫法這個事情那第一天蔡議員委員也提過這個事情"},{"start":528.286,"end":551.52,"text":"所以我特別去了解現在嘉義縣政府在辦理一個剛剛部長說的阿里山鄉村地區整體規劃作業目前縣政府嘉義縣政府在按照各地的需求應該是有計劃在這裡做一個各地因地制宜的使用的管制規則況且功能圖送上來之後內政部還要做第二次的審查我覺得這個我們會更嚴謹的進行"},{"start":553.902,"end":580.04,"text":"對現在你們最大的問題是其實信義度是完全不夠的因為急著明年的4月要上路包括其實這個部長你們自己該完成的執法你們現在還有8項只是完成預告都還沒有經過你們的法規會的審議預告就是表示已經經過我們法規會審議只有一項是屬於這個土地管制上面需要做罰則的部分我認為罰則的部分盡量往後延所以只有一項還沒有處理"},{"start":580.76,"end":608.273,"text":"所以你這個還沒有都完成你的程序啊?公告需要長達60天以上的時間是啊所以你們現在這個執法都還沒有正式完成所有的公告之前就急著上路我要問一個問題是到目前為止22個縣市首長裡面有哪幾位首長是支持國土計劃法在明年4月如期上路?我們現在送到內政部來的是一共有13個縣市政府是啊對"},{"start":609.557,"end":626.425,"text":"所以沒有送上來的送上來就代表他認同嗎其實包括嘉義縣的翁章良縣長他真的認同嗎他之前他在上半年的時候他曾經有發表一個談話他希望國土計劃法要延期上路他送上來是送上來了"},{"start":627.105,"end":640.171,"text":"但是你真的認為宋上海縣市首長他們希望這個國土計畫把明年如期上路我想翁縣長他的本意是希望說我們有完整的配套措施那這個完整的配套措施現在就還沒有阿現在就是還沒有嘛所以我覺得這件事情真的"},{"start":647.734,"end":647.794,"text":"王育敏議員"},{"start":669.938,"end":670.758,"text":"王育敏議員"},{"start":692.329,"end":692.609,"text":"國家必須有"},{"start":711.175,"end":711.395,"text":"王育敏"},{"start":733.863,"end":734.503,"text":"我希望這個法要暫緩實施先溝通再上路"},{"start":756.388,"end":781.354,"text":"第2個是不是可以請部長你到第一線去聽聽鄉親真正的意見到目前為止我想你得到的都是間接式的傳達上來到目前為止你有到第一線去開過任何一場公聽會真的聽到農民第一線的心聲嗎我們大概是跟一些團體然後跟縣市政府一起開會在中部地區有開過有沒有跟農民面對面的農會有"},{"start":783.234,"end":783.454,"text":"王育敏"},{"start":800.05,"end":800.21,"text":"是的,謝謝委員"},{"start":817.043,"end":843.311,"text":"那接下來呢我要再問一個是關於這個一樣是國土的問題但是是不一樣的情景我們現在在推動這個光電是如火如土但是一方面我們重視國土保育但是對於光電業者呢我們其實是毫不設防他們好像想怎麼蓋愛怎麼蓋通通都沒有問題甚至這個部長你是不是有Quota的壓力你連你的這個"},{"start":844.811,"end":867.074,"text":"你自己所掌管的國家公園你一開始都還要去大量鋪設這個光電板是不是報告委員這個完全錯誤第一個我們現在國家公園有管理中心就是在國家公園裡面但是他們在重建或是建造的過程當中他們用的是燃油發電機那這些對於國家公園來講我們要求的是碳排"},{"start":867.714,"end":885.48,"text":"所以我要求國家公園的管理中心自己本身的房舍或者是民宿的那些地方未來他們就是要用太陽能發電減少到處設立一些電線桿要從我們的台灣的平地上面輸送電到上面去只是這樣而已沒有其他的任何計畫"},{"start":886.28,"end":887.381,"text":"會再擴大嗎?因為你們這樣子 連環團都跳出來講話了"},{"start":907.711,"end":924.926,"text":"好 所以這個部分我希望這個要有把關的機制另外一個我要跟院長也是人民要跟院長請命這個在嘉愛縣有一個地方叫大埔大埔這個地方我想兩位可能還沒有機會上到這麼遠的地方曾文水庫有部分就是在大埔下"},{"start":925.646,"end":952.279,"text":"那大埔的居民現在也是一樣很困擾就是在他們熱愛這片土地上面的光電業者進來了然後不需要經過他們的同意然後這些光電板愛怎麼鋪設就怎麼鋪設愛怎麼蓋就怎麼蓋他蓋到連這個當地的議員議會都做成決議要求光電業者要停工可是有沒有效"},{"start":953.097,"end":953.337,"text":"請光電業者與居民多溝通"},{"start":976.462,"end":1001.552,"text":"院長跟部長看一下這是人民的苦就是它的光電板布滿了這個學校跟老人活動中心的旁邊你看到的這個建築物這個建築物裡面就是有在供餐但是老人的食堂然後它旁邊通通都是光電板它不是在屋頂發電它是旁邊布滿了光電板"},{"start":1002.612,"end":1020.22,"text":"居民非常的無力然後抗議然後通通都沒有用那這一個業者呢我想可能他也是仿照這個臺南有個弊案小二甲弊案這個院長應該非常清楚當時他就是規避嘛他就是一塊一塊這樣子"},{"start":1022.52,"end":1034.385,"text":"聽說這案也是就是他就是不同的以為是在自己家屋頂就是蓋光電門所以沒有問題不需要太多審查結果這個化整為零的模式一個一個進來就變成是這樣子一大片"},{"start":1035.404,"end":1060.794,"text":"那這個也沒有環境評估它的光害你可以看到嘛這麼大片它不是在屋頂喔它是在比較低的地方這陽光一照射產生的光害這也沒有辦法管然後現在極端氣候那個產生的熱鬧現在整個的熱氣上來也沒有辦法管請問這個怎麼辦人民怎麼辦人民要跟誰求助地方政府看起來沒有辦法"},{"start":1062.067,"end":1062.087,"text":"國務委員"},{"start":1085.128,"end":1085.268,"text":"王育敏"},{"start":1103.832,"end":1103.972,"text":"王育敏議員"},{"start":1120.728,"end":1132.702,"text":"我現在是有一個平台這個平台雖然是犯罪的平台不是犯罪阿我說有一個受理犯罪的平台那另外就是說我們也希望地方政府能夠負起責任比如說我那天到台南我就發覺說"},{"start":1134.113,"end":1134.553,"text":"院長我就問你"},{"start":1156.383,"end":1180.965,"text":"像這樣子的一個情況我看到幾個問題第一個光天夜人他的設置他完全不需要居民的同意以我剛剛給你看的這張圖那個就是看起來很離譜但是他完全不需要當地居民的同意他只要有辦法取得用地他就可以蓋那這個怎麼辦雲林縣縣長我記得他也曾經反映過就是說現在的評估裡面都不需要有居民同意的這一項"},{"start":1181.866,"end":1208.17,"text":"那結果人民就束手無策啊因為不需要經過我們同意啊光電業者只要有辦法取得土地他愛怎麼蓋就怎麼蓋所以我覺得這個部分應該要讓居民有同意權喔第二個民生聚落當中學校醫院老人長照中心這附近可以這樣子嗎就是如入無人之境然後鋪滿了光電板嗎這個部分完全沒有去設這個整個光電板面積的上限"},{"start":1208.71,"end":1236.244,"text":"這完全是不符合比例嘛我們當時鼓勵設置光電是在空曠的大範圍的而且不是在農業用地上面的大量鋪設這一種已經是社區式的民宅它還不是在每一個人住家上面的屋頂它不是屋頂啊它是在旁邊的空地上面鋪滿了這樣的一個光電板這樣子可以嗎第三個人民就是沒有求助的管道中央目前為止我看不到任何一個部會可以受理人民的陳情啊"},{"start":1237.024,"end":1256.691,"text":"經濟部不用講他是跟光電業者一起的他們要共同開發的那還有哪一個部會可以受理人民像這樣子求助無門呢院長我希望你回去之後你是不是可以去研議開會討論一下如果地方還有這種爭議人民求助無門的你應該要指定一個部會指定一個窗口來受理這樣的案件吧"},{"start":1257.271,"end":1285.629,"text":"這樣才是真的把人民放在你的心上當年我們鼓勵屋頂型跟地上型地上型的地點應該不容許這樣子看到哪裡射到哪裡現在就是這樣啊對於一些居住環境甚至交通安全的顧慮都必須要有的這個我會請經濟部來做一個廣泛性的檢討那希望我可以把這個個案的地點告訴我們好我一定要告訴你這個是大埔鄉民的一個痛接下來這個案子我希望這個"},{"start":1287.267,"end":1308.613,"text":"部長跟院長真的要好好正式處理剛上午我有聽到這個院長在回答委員諮詢說其實一塊錢都不能浪費我也很同意但是一塊錢都不能浪費在內政部審理的計畫當中我就看到了這個疑似有圖利的情況這個要好好的嚴查嚴辦"},{"start":1310.694,"end":1318.404,"text":"我先請教這個部長你的內政部永續提升人行安全計畫你現在總共"},{"start":1320.694,"end":1345.473,"text":"送出來的計劃有幾案你知道嗎全國各縣市相當的多但是我們通過的沒有那麼多因為現在只有剩下下半年的時間而已對 送了262案你只通過175案高達27億然後你這個是全國競爭型的你這一個人行安全計劃你是要有急迫性的要優先補助"},{"start":1346.775,"end":1352.253,"text":"然後卓院長你要建立一個以人為本的交通環境我們就來看接下來這個案子"},{"start":1353.5,"end":1377.787,"text":"這個案子呢 這個表格上面這10件的案子當中 有一件他是道路改善工程計劃 你們核定了1500萬其他所有的案子都是通學步道 都是國中國小或是人行道的改善其中有一案呢 通過了1500萬 他是道路改善工程計劃"},{"start":1379.187,"end":1399.31,"text":"我讓兩位看一下這個圖他要改善什麼樣的道路這個是在嘉義縣水上鄉這個道路大家看到這個圖他有一間私人的殯儀館正在興建當中他要改善的這個道路旁邊都沒有住家也沒有學校"},{"start":1400.492,"end":1420.665,"text":"然後這個旁邊這個實照圖也沒有商圈更不是都市計畫區之內那這個地方我實地有去看了一下我最近常常在跑家有些我有去看你不要說行人車輛都很少然後就是有一間興建中的私人的殯儀館"},{"start":1422.557,"end":1451.262,"text":"那不知道他的急迫性在哪裡這個是這個是以人為本基本上要有一些行人吧對不對看起來這個是非常偏僻的一個地方然後重點是你們在審查會議的時候審查委員的意見這個兩位聽一下現地人車流量低交通量低"},{"start":1452.881,"end":1477.973,"text":"表示說沒什麼人也沒什麼車他說建議考量人行通道的連續性因為看起來他沒有這個不是連續性的行人通道委員更說基於都市計劃區外周邊土地使用非居民的居住地"},{"start":1479.232,"end":1480.473,"text":"最後一個委員這個很關鍵本案似乎是以道路拓寬為主要目的"},{"start":1510.071,"end":1526.151,"text":"請教院長如果一個案子是以道路拓寬為主要目的當地不是都市計劃區內也不是學校也沒有人行然後有一個興建中的殯儀館這個案子為什麼可以通過"},{"start":1527.493,"end":1550.166,"text":"報告委員我想您提到的這個部分我們來審查我們來查一下因為計劃審查的過程當中通常我們會委託學者專家那他所提的這個案件送到我們內政部的國土署在審查的過程當中為什麼最後是核定1500萬您剛有提到黨土牆其實在人行道的安全上面黨土牆確實是有必要的"},{"start":1550.786,"end":1550.946,"text":"道路拓寬"},{"start":1562.267,"end":1587.936,"text":"我希望院長可以回答一下 院長你這樣聽完沒有覺得你說一塊錢都不應該浪費吧那一塊錢都不應該去圖利私人的業者那這個案子你這樣子 如果你是審查委員的話聽到審查委員講的這麼多連計畫的名稱跟原來要改善這個人行安全通通都無關他計畫就大剌剌的寫著道路改善工程"},{"start":1588.936,"end":1616.719,"text":"那這樣的案子夾雜的上來在審查會議當中如果你作為會議主席你會讓這樣的案子過嗎是 謝謝委員 審查委員當然是秉於專業來看交通的設施他也提出很多意見當事者有一定有提出他的需求我想還是請內政部去了解一下審查的過程甚至地方政府為何提出這樣的一個需求他的真正的用意目的到底在哪裡我們要了解之後才讓這個"},{"start":1618.482,"end":1646.81,"text":"補助能夠有效或是做其他的考慮的執行但是一定要聽聽當事者的地方政府提出這個需求跟理由你不覺得這個當中有很大的弊端的存在嗎怎麼會這麼的奇怪呢其他的案子都很正常改善通學步道我想這個是也是落實你說以人為本嗎真的有人潮的我們才在做這件事嗎但是沒有的為什麼可以送上這樣的一個案子"},{"start":1647.526,"end":1658.769,"text":"而且還通過了這個時間點我還不管下這麼大的斷語但是那你要不要查這個有必要讓我們院長我問你你要不要去徹查我會請內政部完全充分了解"},{"start":1659.977,"end":1688.163,"text":"要調查吧要好好的調查吧我在一頁提供你一個資訊參考這一個殯儀館現在在興建當中過去它其實在地方上有一些爭議它是山坡地保育地變更為殯葬用地而且它很巧妙的規避了這一個一萬平方公尺需要還平的規定就9989平方公尺"},{"start":1689.229,"end":1717.369,"text":"那這當中當然還涉及了這個過去這個企業呢他其實曾經停業然後又變成另外一家公司然後過去在另外一家企業的時候有當時時任立委的子女還在裡面擔任董事這個在地方上面大家議論紛紛那我不知道這一件事情跟這一家殯儀館到底有沒有關係但是我們再回放我們去看剛剛給大家看的那個圖就是"},{"start":1719.713,"end":1726.166,"text":"這個實景圖就是長這樣子了就是這個可能你們要好好去調查到底這當中有沒有什麼相關聯"},{"start":1727.659,"end":1747.205,"text":"因為真的是路上就是沒有住家跟商圈沒有行人跟車流那它就不是在都市計畫那它改善的路段為什麼這個是人行安全不懂沒有人在行走的為什麼是改善人行安全那我們真的就只有看到一家的私人殯儀館還在興建當中"},{"start":1750.446,"end":1774.299,"text":"這當中不曉得有沒有任何的關係所以今天利用總質詢我想因為院長在我也希望把這樣的情況就是讓院長你可以了解那你有說過一塊錢都不應該浪費那我認為一塊錢也都不應該去圖利私人如果有圖利的行為這是絕對不允許的因為"},{"start":1775.638,"end":1800.294,"text":"以剛剛講的這些計劃當中 送來的那麼多案子 262案只通過175案 我不知道這當中還有多少人家是真正要改善人行道行人安全的計劃 被排除在外結果你們通過了一件是這種跟這個八竿子打不著的 是道路拓寬計劃的案子夾雜在裡面 而且經費還高達1500萬"},{"start":1802.635,"end":1826.784,"text":"這件案子 院長你是不是承諾你真的會好好去調查你讓人民知道真相到底是什麼好不好會請內政部好好去瞭解這個事情瞭解之後馬上向委員說明好 我希望這個院長好好把事情來龍去脈 調查清楚我們也不允許這樣的情況好 謝謝王委員 謝謝卓院長下一位我們請王世堅委員質詢"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T10:47:56.235000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:47:57.616000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，是不是有請卓院長？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-08T10:47:57.756000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:47:57.876000+08:00","text":"請卓院長備詢。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T10:47:57.876000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:47:57.896000+08:00","text":"王委員好。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T10:47:57.916000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:47:58.097000+08:00","text":"院長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T10:47:58.157000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:47:59.217000+08:00","text":"院長，請問你就任到現在有沒有去過阿里山？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T10:47:59.237000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:47:59.678000+08:00","text":"有一次小火車搭到鐵路不能通的地方。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T10:47:59.698000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:47:59.738000+08:00","text":"有去過嘛！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T10:47:59.738000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:47:59.778000+08:00","text":"有去過。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T10:47:59.778000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:48:00.338000+08:00","text":"那你有跟當地的居民聊過天嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T10:48:00.338000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:48:15.103000+08:00","text":"因為那天主要是看鐵道修復的狀況。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T10:48:15.103000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:48:29.868000+08:00","text":"所以沒有空嘛！對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T10:48:29.868000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:48:36.358000+08:00","text":"你在你的施政報告裡面有提到，你每天最重要的工作都是把人放在第一優先，對不對？","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T10:48:36.358000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:48:37.358000+08:00","text":"我有觀察到你這次施政報告，你試圖帶入比較有溫度的，就是把你到每一個場域所看到的人的感受都放進去，基本上我非常肯定這一點。謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T10:48:37.358000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:48:38.358000+08:00","text":"因為執政其實就是要為人民服務嘛。是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T10:48:37.874000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:49:08.934000+08:00","text":"接下來我就要請教你這次的國土計畫法明年4月要上路的這件事，其實很多農民，特別是在農業縣，農民都非常地焦慮，他們的焦慮感、他們的心聲，你有感受到嗎？","quality":0.785},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T10:49:10.581000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:49:22.751000+08:00","text":"我們有充分感受到，所以我們請農業部跟內政部積極來跟大家說明，看是不是有不瞭解的地方，試圖讓大家瞭解之後，這個法是不是能夠順利地推動。","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T10:49:22.751000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:49:27.595000+08:00","text":"對，我跟院長報告，到目前為止，農民的焦慮沒有解除。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T10:49:28.235000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:49:39.835000+08:00","text":"我最近才上到阿里山山上，跟山上的農民們在晚上時間坐下來聊天，我認真地聽他們的心聲，我現在也要把他們的心聲講給院長聽。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T10:49:42.015000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:49:56.199000+08:00","text":"他們非常地焦慮，有的人其實已經很早就上山開墾、在那邊工作，他很擔心這個法通過之後，他熱愛的這個土地，以後就沒有辦法在那邊工作。","quality":0.965},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T10:49:56.819000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:50:04.727000+08:00","text":"有的人則是祖先在那邊留給他們一個茶農土地，但是兄弟分一分之後，分到的土地沒有多少。","quality":0.763},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T10:50:04.727000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:50:21.519500+08:00","text":"現場讓我很感動的是，有一個青農，他大學二年級的兒子也到現場來反映他的心聲，現在假日他在幫爸爸工作，然後他也希望可以繼承爸爸的職業，但是爸爸希望他的這個茶可以再多一點，畢竟他現在種得很有成就感，也希望他兒子接手後可以再多一點，但是國土計畫法通過之後，他擔心他的兒子沒有辦法在這片土地再繼續地耕作。","quality":0.255},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T10:50:21.519500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:50:38.312000+08:00","text":"有的人在山上做的是民宿或者是露營的用地，他說，政府大筆一揮，表示他們這邊是大面積的崩塌，而他在那邊幾十年，卻從來沒有崩塌過，但是卻被劃為是這樣的地方，然後一直廣告、一直宣傳說它是大規模崩塌地，人家都嚇得不敢來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T10:50:38.312000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:50:42.355000+08:00","text":"阿里山這樣一個地方是國際觀光著名的地標，我們都希望爭取國際觀光客，讓他們可以上到阿里山。","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T10:50:42.435000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:50:44.036000+08:00","text":"阿里山的產業中，像阿里山的高山茶，我不曉得院長有沒有喝過，應該有吧？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T10:50:44.036000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:50:56.523000+08:00","text":"非常好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T10:50:56.523000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:51:09.010000+08:00","text":"非常好，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T10:51:09.010000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:51:09.950000+08:00","text":"國際馳名，國人也非常熱愛。","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T10:51:10.410000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:51:12.691000+08:00","text":"現在還有阿里山的咖啡，你有喝過嗎？有！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T10:51:13.131000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:51:13.911000+08:00","text":"有喝過嘛！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T10:51:13.911000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:51:14.491000+08:00","text":"量太少了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T10:51:15.251000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:51:15.731000+08:00","text":"對，量太少。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T10:51:15.731000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:51:50.891000+08:00","text":"所以農民他們的焦慮是，因為有的人在山上很久了，他們想要認真地在這一片土地上繼續耕作、繼續經營、繼續把整個嘉義縣的觀光做得更好、將阿里山的觀光做得更好，但是新通過的、未來要通過的國土計畫法，讓每一個人充滿了焦慮感，他們沒有辦法確定他們可以在這一片土地繼續地生活，所以他們的訴求是，他們希望來捍衛他們在那邊的基本生計跟財產權。","quality":0.228},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T10:51:50.891000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:52:06.745000+08:00","text":"就這一點，即使嘉義縣政府開過了說明會，嘉義縣政府也已經把分區圖送給中央了，但是在當地你可以看到，所有的農民，包括山上的農民，卻是一片的焦慮感，問題通通都沒有解決，在這樣的情況底下，我們要怎麼上路？","quality":0.761},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T10:52:06.745000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:52:07.745000+08:00","text":"我們要怎麼上路？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T10:52:07.745000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:52:08.745000+08:00","text":"請問一下部長，這樣要怎麼上路？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T10:52:08.745000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:52:09.745000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我跟您補充一下，第一個，農一、農二的劃法，跟現在的區域計畫法完全一模一樣；再加上一個……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T10:52:09.745000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:52:10.745000+08:00","text":"這裡是國一。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T10:52:07.746000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:52:59.702000+08:00","text":"對，阿里山現在如果是一個觀光風景區的話，嘉義縣政府有跟我們討論過，我們也許可以按照一個阿里山鄉鄉村地區的整體規劃，也就是把它變成是個鄉街計畫法的方式來推動，剛剛你講的民宿也好，或是有關阿里山的這些小商店家，都把他們濃縮在裡面，變成是一個很好的地標來發展，而不是外界所說的，劃成國土計畫法就不能用，然後農地完全不能繼承，這是完全相反的，我想有些人的訊息不太明確，所以我們很願意再去阿里山鄉跟他們溝通。","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T10:52:59.722000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:53:17.972000+08:00","text":"我要跟你說的是，農民當天就跟我反映，他說縣政府答應他們不會劃成國一，結果送上來後，你看這張圖，整個阿里山地區，國一就是深綠色的這一片，幾乎通通都是啊！","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T10:53:18.593000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:53:38.441000+08:00","text":"那天晚上鄉親他們那麼焦慮的座談，就是因為政府嘴巴答應的跟實質送出來的，其實是不一樣的，就是多數地方都被劃為國一了，他們知道的情況是這樣，他們自己也會去打聽，他說原來答應的是這個土地不會劃成國一的，後來也都變成國一了，即他說不會這樣，結果通通被劃成國一。","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T10:53:38.921000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:53:42.882000+08:00","text":"而且在你們現在的辦法裡面，你知道你們的圖是怎麼劃出來的嗎？","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T10:53:42.882000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:53:43.323000+08:00","text":"你們是用套圖欸！","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T10:53:45.284000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:53:58.815000+08:00","text":"鄉親還告訴我，你們都沒有來實際的場勘，都沒有實際找專業人士來探勘，就說他的土地是國一就是國一，而且他說縣府就是用資料套圖嘛！","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T10:53:59.435000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:54:01.057000+08:00","text":"你們就是大筆一揮。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T10:54:01.057000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:54:08.102000+08:00","text":"而且不到兩公頃的地方，不是國一的也可以劃為國一，就是為了讓劃起來的圖更好看、更完整。","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T10:54:09.043000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:54:19.890000+08:00","text":"我要告訴院長、部長的是，財產涉及到每一個人民，是他最在乎的事情，但這件事情我們絕對不可以便宜行事。是。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T10:54:20.471000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:54:29.136000+08:00","text":"也不可以非常粗糙、粗暴地就直接以套圖的方式，然後就判定他的土地是屬於什麼。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T10:54:29.136000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:54:40.602000+08:00","text":"農民是可以被溝通的，也是可以被說服的，我很感動的是他們熱愛那個地方，想要好好經營，並不是想要去圖利、變賣土地什麼的……對。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T10:54:41.302000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:54:53.066000+08:00","text":"國一這邊有很多的農民，他們是想要好好留在原地耕作，好好保護這塊土地，他們也知道水保的重要，但是他說：可不可以給我們一條路？","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T10:54:53.546000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:55:01.189000+08:00","text":"在兼顧保育、水保跟產業發展之間，給他們一條路可以走，可不可以？","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T10:55:01.469000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:55:10.474000+08:00","text":"報告委員，非常謝謝您的關心，委員講的非常正確，阿里山這些農民朋友們知道國土保育跟他們鄉街發展兩個都要並重。","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T10:55:10.954000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:55:17.998000+08:00","text":"所以我剛才跟您提到，第一個，沒有到現場會勘，也表示功能分區圖送上來的時候，我們還沒有完全審查。","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T10:55:18.678000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:55:32.426000+08:00","text":"完成審查作業的情況之下，如果農民有意見，我們接到意見後馬上要去進行，以確定是不是真的是國土保育所需要的，如果沒有，隨便亂畫，我們也不希望用這種比較粗糙的方式來處理功能分區圖。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T10:55:32.426000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:55:55.078000+08:00","text":"所以我剛才有跟委員報告，現在縣政府跟我們正在處理有關阿里山鄉鄉村地區的整體作業，就是要回復剛剛所說的阿里山居民們對這方面的疑慮，我們願意很誠懇來回答這個問題，因為我們相信，阿里山鄉的這些朋友們不是為了炒作農地，也不是財團炒作，而都是祖先留下來的……是。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T10:55:55.738000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:55:58.079000+08:00","text":"而且他們更了解現場狀況！","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T10:55:58.079000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:56:12.908000+08:00","text":"如果他願意把現場狀況告訴我們，讓我們套疊在我們所知道的現在地質上的變化，如果沒有真正屬於潛在危險區或是環境敏感區的話，就不應該用這樣比較粗糙的方式，全部一塊劃進去。","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T10:56:13.868000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:56:16.670000+08:00","text":"部長，我問你，補救措施要怎麼做？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T10:56:18.191000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:56:23.294000+08:00","text":"我9月份到現場時，根本沒有這樣的作法，也沒有這樣的說明。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T10:56:23.294000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:56:24.294000+08:00","text":"他們告訴我，縣府已經把功能分區圖送上來，他們這邊就是國一，所以他們非常焦慮。","quality":0.029},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T10:56:24.294000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:56:26.656000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，從總質詢開始的第一天到現在，很多委員都關心過國土計畫法這件事。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T10:56:26.976000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:56:43.147000+08:00","text":"蔡易餘委員第一天也提過這件事情，所以我特別去了解。","quality":0.739},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T10:56:43.887000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:57:00.877000+08:00","text":"現在嘉義縣政府在辦理剛剛部長說的阿里山鄉村地區整體規劃作業，目前嘉義縣政府按照各地的需求，應該是有計畫在這裡做各地因地制宜的使用管制規則。","quality":0.985},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T10:57:00.877000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:57:05.500000+08:00","text":"況且功能圖送上來之後，內政部還要做第二次審查，這個我們會更嚴謹地進行。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T10:57:07.902000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:57:13.846000+08:00","text":"對，現在你們最大的問題是細膩度完全不夠，因為急著明年4月要上路。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T10:57:15.527000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:57:24.213000+08:00","text":"部長，你們該完成的子法中，現在還有八項只完成預告，都還沒有經過你們法規會的審議。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T10:57:24.213000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:57:34.020000+08:00","text":"預告就表示已經經過我們法規會的審議，只有一項是屬於土地管制上需要的罰則部分，我認為罰則部分要儘量往後延，所以只有一項還沒有處理。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T10:57:34.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:57:37.241000+08:00","text":"所以你還沒有完成程序啊。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T10:57:37.661000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:57:40.763000+08:00","text":"公告需要長達60天以上時間。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T10:57:40.763000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:57:47.726000+08:00","text":"是啊，所以在子法都還沒有正式完成公告之前就急著上路！","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T10:57:47.986000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:57:57.390000+08:00","text":"我要問你的一個問題是，到目前為止，22個縣市首長裡，有哪幾位首長支持國土計畫法在明年4月如期上路？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T10:57:57.891000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:58:02.273000+08:00","text":"現在送到內政部來的一共有13個縣市政府。是啊。對。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T10:58:03.557000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:58:07.739000+08:00","text":"所以沒有送上來的……送上來就代表它認同嗎？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T10:58:07.739000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:58:11.581000+08:00","text":"其實嘉義縣的翁章梁縣長真的認同嗎？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T10:58:11.581000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:58:18.864000+08:00","text":"他在上半年曾經發表過一個談話，希望國土計畫法延期上路。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T10:58:19.304000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:58:27.048000+08:00","text":"他是送上來了，但你真的認為送上來的縣市首長希望國土計畫法明年如期上路嗎？","quality":0.853},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T10:58:27.128000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:58:32.790000+08:00","text":"我想翁縣長的本意是希望我們有完整的配套措施，而這個完整的配套措施……","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T10:58:32.890000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:58:33.170000+08:00","text":"現在就還沒有啊！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T10:58:33.170000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:58:34.170000+08:00","text":"內政部跟農業部要能夠一起進行……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T10:58:33.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:58:33.590000+08:00","text":"現在就是還沒有。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T10:58:33.590000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:58:34.590000+08:00","text":"這一點我們會努力來改進。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T10:58:33.631000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T10:58:34.151000+08:00","text":"所以我覺得這件事情真的可以再好好去跟鄉親溝通。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T10:58:34.151000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:58:41.960333+08:00","text":"院長，我要告訴你的是：人真的很重要。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T10:58:41.960333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:58:49.769667+08:00","text":"像嘉義縣這樣的地方多數被劃在國土保育區，但如果因為這樣就沒有辦法有生計、產業也無法發展，我覺得這樣是不對的！","quality":0.02},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T10:58:49.769667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:58:57.579000+08:00","text":"我們應該可以在保育跟生計、跟產業發展之間找到一條路，一條平衡的道路，讓這件事情更圓滿上路，而不是讓鄉親們充滿了焦慮。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T10:58:57.579000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:59:05.388333+08:00","text":"你知道嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T10:59:05.388333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:59:13.197667+08:00","text":"到目前為止，鄉親還會一直問我：委員，國土計畫法真的要如期上路嗎？","quality":0.036},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T10:59:13.197667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:59:21.007000+08:00","text":"我們怎麼辦？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T10:59:21.007000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:59:28.816333+08:00","text":"每天都生活在這種焦慮感裡面。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T10:59:28.816333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:59:36.625667+08:00","text":"院長，我覺得你有責任，你應該要拍板，你應該不要讓這些鄉親充滿焦慮！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T10:59:36.625667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:59:44.435000+08:00","text":"如果現在還沒有做足準備，為什麼一定要明年如期上路？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T10:59:44.435000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T10:59:52.244333+08:00","text":"報告委員，國家必須要有必要的、充足的農地來從事生產，這個原則我們定下來。","quality":0.188},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T10:59:52.244333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:00:00.053667+08:00","text":"再來，任何一個法律，如果讓農民或是國人的土地因為一個法律讓他們像委員所說的沒有辦法做其他的使用或限制太強，我想這個法律本身就值得我們來深思熟慮，所以整個執行的過程，我還是希望能跟農民朋友說清楚、講明白，到底農民的權益受損跟沒有受損在哪裡，讓農民能夠完全支持之後，這個法才有辦法有效的上路。","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T11:00:00.053667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:00:07.863000+08:00","text":"當然，地方政府的配合也是極其需要的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:00:07.863000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:00:08.483000+08:00","text":"好，我在這邊有三個建議，第一個，我希望這個法要暫緩實施，先溝通，先溝通再上路。","quality":0.515},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:00:30.388000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:00:46.792000+08:00","text":"第二個，是不是可以請部長到第一線去聽聽鄉親真正的意見，到目前為止，我想你得到的都是間接式的傳達上來，到目前為止，你有到第一線去開過任何一場公聽會，真的聽到農民第一線的心聲嗎？","quality":0.988},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T11:00:46.792000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:00:53.373000+08:00","text":"我們大概是跟一些團體，然後跟縣市政府一起開會，在中部地區有開過……","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:00:53.373000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:00:55.054000+08:00","text":"有沒有跟農民面對面的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T11:00:55.334000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:00:55.334000+08:00","text":"農會有，農民比較沒有。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:00:55.334000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:00:57.673500+08:00","text":"農民沒有嘛，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T11:00:57.673500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:01:00.013000+08:00","text":"對，沒有。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:01:00.013000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:01:02.352500+08:00","text":"我真的強烈建議部長，你可以到第一線去……","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T11:01:02.352500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:01:04.692000+08:00","text":"好，我會去。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:01:04.692000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:01:07.031500+08:00","text":"你聽到的就會是最真實的聲音，如果你願意到嘉義縣來的話，本席也願意陪你一起來聽這些農民的聲音。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T11:01:07.031500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:01:09.371000+08:00","text":"我來安排。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:01:09.371000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:01:11.710500+08:00","text":"你看你的時間。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:01:11.710500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:01:14.050000+08:00","text":"農民的生計和產業的發展真的非常的重要，我覺得他們都非常辛苦，所以我希望我們以人為施政優先的目標，要把農民澈澈底底放在心上，照顧他們的權益，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T11:01:14.050000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:01:14.210000+08:00","text":"是的，謝謝委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:01:31.203000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:02:05.378000+08:00","text":"接下來我要再問的一樣是關於國土的問題，但是是不一樣的情景，我們現在在推動光電是如火如荼，一方面我們重視國土保育，但是對於光電業者其實是毫不設防，他們好像想怎麼蓋、愛怎麼蓋統統都沒有問題，甚至部長你是不是有quota的壓力，所以連你自己所掌管的國家公園一開始都還要去大量鋪設光電板，是不是？","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T11:02:06.559000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:02:08.241000+08:00","text":"報告委員，這個完全錯誤。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T11:02:08.241000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:02:39.480000+08:00","text":"第一個，我們現在國家公園有管理中心，就是在國家公園裏面，但是他們在重建或建造的過程中，他們用的是燃油發電機，這些對於國家公園來講，我們要求的是碳排，所以我要求國家公園管理中心自己本身的房舍或民宿等地方未來就是要用太陽能發電，減少到處設立一些電線桿要從臺灣的平地上輸送電到上面去，只是這樣而已，沒有其他的任何計畫……","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:02:40.280000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:02:40.520000+08:00","text":"不會再擴大嗎？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T11:02:40.520000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:02:41.520000+08:00","text":"我們七、八個國家公園裏面所產生的碳排量總共就三千多噸而已，其實並不多，我想外界做太擴大的解釋，對於未來我們在國家公園的管理上面反而是很大的困擾，這點也請委員幫我們澄清。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:02:40.520000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:02:41.361000+08:00","text":"好，因為你們這樣子，連環團都跳出來講話了……","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T11:02:41.361000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:03:01.711000+08:00","text":"沒有、沒有，環團是支持我們的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:03:01.711000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:03:05.334000+08:00","text":"好，所以這個部分，我希望要有把關的機制。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:03:05.975000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:03:18.765000+08:00","text":"另外一個，我要跟院長，也是人民要跟院長請命，在嘉義縣有個地方叫做大埔，大埔這個地方我想兩位可能還沒機會上到這麼遠的地方，曾文水庫有部分就是在大埔鄉。","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:03:19.806000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:03:46.259000+08:00","text":"大埔的居民現在也是一樣很困擾，就是在他們熱愛的這片土地上，光電業者進來了，不需要經過他們的同意，這些光電板愛怎鋪設就怎鋪設，愛怎麼蓋就怎麼蓋，蓋到連當地的議員、議會都做成決議要求光電業者要停工，可是有沒有效？","quality":0.989},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:03:46.259000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:03:47.259000+08:00","text":"沒有強制力欸！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:03:47.259000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:03:48.259000+08:00","text":"沒有效！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:03:48.259000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:03:49.259000+08:00","text":"他繼續施工、繼續蓋，然後議員帶著鄉親到現場去抗議、到嘉義縣政府去抗議，有沒有效？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:03:47.097000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:03:47.317000+08:00","text":"沒有效，縣長說那就請光電業者和居民多溝通。","quality":0.526},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:03:47.317000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:04:10.462000+08:00","text":"你知道他蓋到怎樣的情況嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:04:10.462000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:05:11.285000+08:00","text":"這個圖讓院長跟部長看一下，這是人民的苦啊，光電板布滿了學校跟老人活動中心的旁邊，你看到的這個建築物的裡面是有在供餐的，是老人的食堂，旁邊統統都是光電板，不是在屋頂發電，是旁邊布滿光電板，居民非常的無力，然後去抗議也統統都沒有用，這個業者我想可能他也是仿造臺南有個弊案，小二甲弊案，這個院長應該非常清楚，當時就是要規避嘛，所以一塊一塊的，聽說這一案也是，就是不同的，以為是在自家屋頂蓋光電板，所以沒有問題，也不需要太多審查，結果以化整為零的模式，一個一個進來就變成這樣一大片，這個也沒有環境評估。","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:05:12.005000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:05:29.312000+08:00","text":"他的光害，你可以看到嘛，這麼大片的光電板，不是在屋頂，而是在比較低的地方，陽光一照射產生的光害，這也沒有辦法管，然後現在極端氣候產生的熱島效應，整個熱氣上來，也沒有辦法管，請問這個怎麼辦？","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:05:29.312000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:05:31.092000+08:00","text":"人民怎麼辦？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:05:31.092000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:05:32.013000+08:00","text":"人民要跟誰求助？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:05:33.333000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:05:34.774000+08:00","text":"地方政府看起來也沒有辦法！","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T11:05:34.774000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:05:46.873000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我們在各地農民、漁民的種電的過程中，我上次到臺南去有特別提到農漁要優先，照顧大家的權益，所以我們提出制度要透明、過程要簡化，如果有不法，我們有一個綠能犯罪平臺，希望大家來檢舉，甚至我們說公私部門，法務部跟各地的地方政府也要合作，針對這些不法，這件看起來就算不是不法，也是有不當的問題。","quality":0.015},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:05:46.873000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:05:58.972000+08:00","text":"對啊，那怎麼辦呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:05:58.972000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:06:11.071000+08:00","text":"這是嚴重的不當啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:06:11.071000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:06:23.170000+08:00","text":"然後我覺得老百姓真的很苦耶，求助縣府也沒有用，縣議會都已經要求他停工，但是也約束不了，我們中央沒有任何一個部會有辦法管他的，內政部受理人民陳情，內政部管嗎？","quality":0.028},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:06:23.170000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:06:35.269000+08:00","text":"我們現在中央根本沒有一個，就是當地方都無能為力的時候，請問院長，中央有哪個部會可以受理人民的陳情？","quality":0.067},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T11:06:35.269000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:06:37.952000+08:00","text":"我們現在就有一個平臺，這個平臺雖然是犯罪的平臺，但如果說……","quality":0.654},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:06:38.432000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:06:39.233000+08:00","text":"不是犯罪啊！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T11:06:40.254000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:06:41.776000+08:00","text":"對，我說有一個受理犯罪的平臺。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T11:06:41.776000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:06:48.113000+08:00","text":"另外就是我們也希望地方政府能夠負起責任，比方說我那天到臺南就發現養殖面積現在還有2萬多公頃可以做，我說不需要這麼多，我們把不適合開放的地方縮起來，希望以後不要造成這樣的現象，但是已經發生的可能有契約的問題或現在在進行當中，能不能進行一個有效的，讓現在的光害或傷害能夠減少……","quality":0.236},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:06:48.113000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:07:28.399000+08:00","text":"院長，我就問你，像這樣的情況，我看到幾個問題，第一個，光電業者要設置光電板完全不需要居民的同意，以我剛剛給你看的這張圖，那個看起來就是很離譜，但是他完全不需要當地居民的同意，只要有辦法取得用地就可以蓋，這個怎麼辦？","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:07:28.399000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:07:38.869000+08:00","text":"我記得雲林縣縣長也曾經反映過，就是在現在的評估裡面都不需要有居民同意的這一項，結果人民就束手無策啊，因為不需要經過我們的同意啊！","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:07:39.089000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:07:46.696000+08:00","text":"光電業者只要有辦法取得土地，愛怎麼蓋就怎麼蓋，所以我覺得這個部分應該要讓居民有同意權。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:07:47.436000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:07:54.683000+08:00","text":"第二個，民生聚落當中，學校、醫院、老人長照中心附近，這附近可以這樣子嗎？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:07:55.023000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:07:58.186000+08:00","text":"可以如入無人之境的鋪滿光電板嗎？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:07:58.186000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:08:04.011000+08:00","text":"這部分完全沒有設光電板面積的上限，這完全不符合比例嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:08:04.331000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:08:16.557000+08:00","text":"我們當時鼓勵設置光電是在空曠的、大範圍的，而且不是在農業用地上大量鋪設，這種已經是社區式的民宅，他還不是在每個人的住家上的屋頂……","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T11:08:16.557000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:08:17.557000+08:00","text":"屋頂型。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:08:16.677000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:08:22.780000+08:00","text":"他不是屋頂，而是在旁邊的空地上面鋪滿光電板，這樣可以嗎？","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:08:22.780000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:08:36.626000+08:00","text":"第三個，人民沒有求助的管道，中央到目前為止，我看不到任何一個部會可以受理人民陳情，經濟部不用講，它是跟光電業者一起的，他們要共同開發，那還有哪個部會可以受理人民的陳情？","quality":0.934},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:08:36.786000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:08:38.387000+08:00","text":"像這樣子求助無門耶！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:08:39.447000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:08:53.172000+08:00","text":"院長，我希望你回去之後是不是可以研議或開會討論一下，如果地方還有這種爭議，人民求助無門的，你應該指定一個部會、指定一個窗口來受理這樣的案件吧，這樣才是真的把人民放在你的心上。","quality":0.988},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T11:08:53.433000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:09:00.217000+08:00","text":"當年我們是鼓勵屋頂型跟地上型，地上型的地點應該不容許這樣看到哪裡就設到哪裡，很多……","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:09:00.217000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:09:00.817000+08:00","text":"現在就是這樣啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T11:09:01.198000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:09:11.144000+08:00","text":"對於居住環境，甚至交通安全的顧慮都必須要有的，這個我會請經濟部來做個廣泛性的檢討，希望委員把這個個案的地點告訴我們，我們來了解。","quality":0.881},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:09:11.144000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:09:14.686000+08:00","text":"好，我一定會告訴你，這個是大埔鄉民的一個痛。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:09:15.967000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:09:42.613000+08:00","text":"接下來這個案子，我希望部長和院長真的要好好正視、處理，剛剛上午我聽到院長回答委員質詢的時候有說其實一塊錢都不能浪費，我也很同意，但是一塊錢都不能浪費，在內政部審理的計畫案當中，我就看到了疑似有圖利的情況，這個要好好的嚴查嚴辦。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:09:44.694000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:09:58.257000+08:00","text":"我先請教部長，內政部「永續提升人行安全計畫」，現在總共送出來的計畫有幾案，你知道嗎？","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T11:09:58.257000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:10:03.721000+08:00","text":"全國各縣市相當的多，但是我們通過的沒有那麼多，因為現在只剩下下半年的時間而已。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:10:04.662000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:10:10.867000+08:00","text":"對，送了262案，你只通過175案，高達27億。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:10:11.867000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:10:26.233000+08:00","text":"這是全國競爭型的，這個人行安全計畫是有急迫性的要優先補助，卓院長你說要建立一個以人為本的交通環境，我們就來看接下來這個案子。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:10:30.301000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:10:51.787000+08:00","text":"表格上面這十件案子當中，有一件是道路改善工程計畫，你們核定了1,500萬，其他所有的案子都是通學步道，都是國中、國小或是人行道的改善，其中有一案通過了1,500萬，它是道路改善工程計畫。","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:10:53.187000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:10:56.951000+08:00","text":"我讓兩位看一下這個圖，它要改善什麼樣的道路呢？","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:10:58.693000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:11:22.237000+08:00","text":"這個是在嘉義縣水上鄉，大家看到這個圖，這個道路旁有一間私人的殯儀館正在興建當中，他要改善的這個道路旁邊都沒有住家，也沒有學校，從旁邊的實照圖看起來也沒有商圈，更不是都市計畫區之內。","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:11:22.898000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:11:39.698000+08:00","text":"這個地方我有實地去看了一下，我最近常常在跑嘉義，所以我有去看，不要說行人，連車輛都很少，然後就是有一間興建中的私人殯儀館，不知道它的急迫性在哪裡？","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:11:39.698000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:11:46.219000+08:00","text":"這個計畫是以人為本，基本上要有一些行人，對不對？","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:11:46.219000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:11:48.699000+08:00","text":"看起來這是非常偏僻的一個地方。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:11:50.959000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:12:34.453000+08:00","text":"重點是在審查會議的時候審查委員的意見，這部分兩位聽一下，有委員說現地人車流量低、交通量低，表示說沒什麼人也沒什麼車；然後有委員說建議考量人行通道的連續性，因為看起來它不是連續性的行人通道；更有委員說，基地位於都市計畫區外，周邊土地使用非居民的聚居地，因為真的旁邊沒有人，不知道為什麼要做；還有委員說，應該確認民眾支援的需求性有多高，也就是不知道它的需求性在哪裡；然後也有委員提到，擋土牆的費用占總經費的四分之一，當地使用率偏低；最後一個委員說的這個很關鍵，本案似乎是以道路拓寬為主要目的。","quality":0.549},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:13:04.071000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:13:20.151000+08:00","text":"請教院長，如果一個案子是以道路拓寬為主要目的，當地不是都市計畫區內，也不是學校，也沒有人行通道，然後有一個興建中的殯儀館，這個案子為什麼可以通過？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T11:13:21.493000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:13:39.063000+08:00","text":"報告委員，您提到的這部分，我們來查一下，因為計畫審查的過程當中，通常我們會委託學者專家，他所提的這個案件送到我們內政部的國土署，在審查的過程當中，為什麼最後是核定1,500萬？","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-10-08T11:13:39.063000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:13:44.946000+08:00","text":"您剛有提到擋土牆，其實在人行道的安全上面，擋土牆確實是有必要的，但是如果它是以道路拓寬為主要目的的話，可能跟你剛剛所說的是競爭型計畫完全不太相關，讓我們有時間來查一下，再跟委員報告，好嗎？","quality":0.36},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:13:56.267000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:13:57.908000+08:00","text":"我希望院長可以回答一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:13:58.088000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:14:01.789000+08:00","text":"院長，你這樣聽完有沒有覺得，你說一塊錢都不應該浪費嘛？是。","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:14:02.769000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:14:05.530000+08:00","text":"那一塊錢都不應該去圖利私人的業者。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:14:06.851000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:14:31.203000+08:00","text":"這個案子，如果你是審查委員的話，聽到審查委員講了這麼多，連計畫的名稱都跟原來要改善人行安全通通無關，它的計畫就大喇喇的寫著道路改善工程，這樣的案子送上來，在審查會議當中，如果你作為會議主席，你會讓這樣的案子過嗎？","quality":0.928},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T11:14:31.203000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:14:32.003000+08:00","text":"是，謝謝委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T11:14:32.003000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:14:35.366000+08:00","text":"審查委員當然是秉於專業來看交通的設施，但是……","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:14:35.526000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:14:37.148000+08:00","text":"他也提出很多意見。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T11:14:37.148000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:14:49.458000+08:00","text":"當事者也一定有提出他的需求，我想還是請內政部去了解一下審查的過程，甚至地方政府為何提出這樣的一個需求，他真正的用意、目的到底在哪裡？","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T11:14:49.458000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:15:00.944000+08:00","text":"我們要了解之後，才讓這個補助能夠有效或是考慮做其他的執行，但是一定要聽聽當事者對地方政府提出的需求跟理由。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:15:02.065000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:15:06.226000+08:00","text":"你不覺得這個當中有很大的弊端存在嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:15:06.226000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:15:07.426000+08:00","text":"怎麼會這麼的奇怪呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:15:07.666000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:15:13.248000+08:00","text":"其他的案子都很正常，我想改善通學步道也是落實你說的以人為本嘛！","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:15:14.268000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:15:16.329000+08:00","text":"真的有人潮，我們才來做這件事嘛！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:15:17.189000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:15:20.790000+08:00","text":"但是沒有的，為什麼可以送上這樣的一個案子？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:15:21.526000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:15:22.729000+08:00","text":"而且還通過了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T11:15:23.711000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:15:25.635000+08:00","text":"在這個時間點我還不敢下這麼大的斷語，但是……","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:15:25.895000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:15:26.496000+08:00","text":"那你要不要查？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T11:15:27.519000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:15:29.102000+08:00","text":"這個有必要讓我們的內政部去了解……","quality":0.533},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:15:29.102000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:15:30.625000+08:00","text":"院長，我問你，你要不要去澈查？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T11:15:31.106000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:15:32.749000+08:00","text":"是，我會請內政部去完全充分了解。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:15:33.977000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:15:34.597000+08:00","text":"要調查吧？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T11:15:34.597000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-10-08T11:15:35.737000+08:00","text":"要，要查。要查。","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:15:35.737000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:15:36.658000+08:00","text":"要好好的調查吧！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:15:37.398000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:16:20.842000+08:00","text":"我再提供一個資訊給你參考，這一個殯儀館現在在興建當中，過去它其實在地方上有一些爭議，它是山坡地保育區變更為殯葬用地，而且它很巧妙的規避了1萬平方公尺需要環評的規定，就是9,987平方公尺，這當中當然還涉及了一個部分，就是過去這個企業其實曾經停業，然後又變成另外一家公司，而且過去在另外一家企業的時候，還有當時時任立委的子女在裡面擔任董事，這個在地方上面大家議論紛紛。","quality":0.904},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:16:21.302000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:16:58.084000+08:00","text":"我不知道這一件事情跟這一家殯儀館到底有沒有關係，但是我們再回放剛剛給大家看的那個圖，這個實景圖就是長這樣子，這個可能你們要好好去調查到底這當中有沒有什麼相關聯，因為真的路上就是沒有住家跟商圈，沒有行人跟車流，它就不是在都市計畫，它改善的路段為什麼是人行安全，我不懂，沒有人在行走的，為什麼是改善人行安全呢？","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:16:58.984000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:17:27.778000+08:00","text":"我們真的就只有看到一家私人殯儀館還在興建當中，那這當中不曉得有沒有任何的關係，所以我今天利用總質詢，因為院長在，我也希望讓院長可以了解有這樣的情況，你有說過一塊錢都不應該浪費，我認為一塊錢也都不應該去圖利私人，如果有圖利的行為，這是絕對不允許的。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:17:29.638000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:17:54.294000+08:00","text":"以剛剛講的這些計畫當中，送來那麼多案子，有262案，只通過175案，我不知道這當中還有多少真正要改善人行道、行人安全的計畫被排除在外，結果你們通過了一件這種跟這個八竿子打不著的，這個道路拓寬計畫的案子夾雜在裡面，而且經費還高達1,500萬。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:17:56.635000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:18:00.677000+08:00","text":"對於這件案子，院長是不是承諾你真的會好好地去調查？","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:18:01.037000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:18:03.397000+08:00","text":"你讓人民知道真相到底是什麼好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-10-08T11:18:03.798000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:18:07.099000+08:00","text":"我會請內政部好好去了解這個事情，在了解之後馬上向委員說明。","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-10-08T11:18:07.539000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:18:14.201000+08:00","text":"好，我希望院長好好把事情的來龍去脈調查清楚，我們也不允許這樣的情況存在，好不好？好的。謝謝。謝謝。","quality":0.738},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-08T11:18:14.381000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:18:18.843000+08:00","text":"謝謝王委員，謝謝卓院長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-10-08T11:18:18.843000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-10-08T11:18:20.784000+08:00","text":"下一位我們請王世堅委員質詢。","quality":1}]},"會議時間":"2024-10-08T09:00:00+08:00","委員發言時間":"10:47:54 - 11:18:23","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第3次會議（事由：對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢）","gazette":{"lineno":520,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（10時47分）謝謝主席，是不是有請卓院長？"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：王委員好。"],["王委員育敏：院長好。院長，請問你就任到現在有沒有去過阿里山？"],["卓院長榮泰：有一次小火車搭到鐵路不能通的地方。"],["王委員育敏：有去過嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：有去過。"],["王委員育敏：那你有跟當地的居民聊過天嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為那天主要是看鐵道修復的狀況。"],["王委員育敏：所以沒有空嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["王委員育敏：你在你的施政報告裡面有提到，你每天最重要的工作都是把人放在第一優先，對不對？我有觀察到你這次施政報告，你試圖帶入比較有溫度的，就是把你到每一個場域所看到的人的感受都放進去，基本上我非常肯定這一點。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["王委員育敏：因為執政其實就是要為人民服務嘛。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["王委員育敏：接下來我就要請教你這次的國土計畫法明年4月要上路的這件事，其實很多農民，特別是在農業縣，農民都非常地焦慮，他們的焦慮感、他們的心聲，你有感受到嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們有充分感受到，所以我們請農業部跟內政部積極來跟大家說明，看是不是有不瞭解的地方，試圖讓大家瞭解之後，這個法是不是能夠順利地推動。"],["王委員育敏：對，我跟院長報告，到目前為止，農民的焦慮沒有解除。我最近才上到阿里山山上，跟山上的農民們在晚上時間坐下來聊天，我認真地聽他們的心聲，我現在也要把他們的心聲講給院長聽。他們非常地焦慮，有的人其實已經很早就上山開墾、在那邊工作，他很擔心這個法通過之後，他熱愛的這個土地，以後就沒有辦法在那邊工作。有的人則是祖先在那邊留給他們一個茶農土地，但是兄弟分一分之後，分到的土地沒有多少。現場讓我很感動的是，有一個青農，他大學二年級的兒子也到現場來反映他的心聲，現在假日他在幫爸爸工作，然後他也希望可以繼承爸爸的職業，但是爸爸希望他的這個茶可以再多一點，畢竟他現在種得很有成就感，也希望他兒子接手後可以再多一點，但是國土計畫法通過之後，他擔心他的兒子沒有辦法在這片土地再繼續地耕作。有的人在山上做的是民宿或者是露營的用地，他說，政府大筆一揮，表示他們這邊是大面積的崩塌，而他在那邊幾十年，卻從來沒有崩塌過，但是卻被劃為是這樣的地方，然後一直廣告、一直宣傳說它是大規模崩塌地，人家都嚇得不敢來。","阿里山這樣一個地方是國際觀光著名的地標，我們都希望爭取國際觀光客，讓他們可以上到阿里山。阿里山的產業中，像阿里山的高山茶，我不曉得院長有沒有喝過，應該有吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：非常好。"],["王委員育敏：非常好，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：國際馳名，國人也非常熱愛。"],["王委員育敏：現在還有阿里山的咖啡，你有喝過嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：有！"],["王委員育敏：有喝過嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：量太少了。"],["王委員育敏：對，量太少。所以農民他們的焦慮是，因為有的人在山上很久了，他們想要認真地在這一片土地上繼續耕作、繼續經營、繼續把整個嘉義縣的觀光做得更好、將阿里山的觀光做得更好，但是新通過的、未來要通過的國土計畫法，讓每一個人充滿了焦慮感，他們沒有辦法確定他們可以在這一片土地繼續地生活，所以他們的訴求是，他們希望來捍衛他們在那邊的基本生計跟財產權。","就這一點，即使嘉義縣政府開過了說明會，嘉義縣政府也已經把分區圖送給中央了，但是在當地你可以看到，所有的農民，包括山上的農民，卻是一片的焦慮感，問題通通都沒有解決，在這樣的情況底下，我們要怎麼上路？我們要怎麼上路？請問一下部長，這樣要怎麼上路？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我跟您補充一下，第一個，農一、農二的劃法，跟現在的區域計畫法完全一模一樣；再加上一個……"],["王委員育敏：這裡是國一。"],["劉部長世芳：對，阿里山現在如果是一個觀光風景區的話，嘉義縣政府有跟我們討論過，我們也許可以按照一個阿里山鄉鄉村地區的整體規劃，也就是把它變成是個鄉街計畫法的方式來推動，剛剛你講的民宿也好，或是有關阿里山的這些小商店家，都把他們濃縮在裡面，變成是一個很好的地標來發展，而不是外界所說的，劃成國土計畫法就不能用，然後農地完全不能繼承，這是完全相反的，我想有些人的訊息不太明確，所以我們很願意再去阿里山鄉跟他們溝通。"],["王委員育敏：我要跟你說的是，農民當天就跟我反映，他說縣政府答應他們不會劃成國一，結果送上來後，你看這張圖，整個阿里山地區，國一就是深綠色的這一片，幾乎通通都是啊！那天晚上鄉親他們那麼焦慮的座談，就是因為政府嘴巴答應的跟實質送出來的，其實是不一樣的，就是多數地方都被劃為國一了，他們知道的情況是這樣，他們自己也會去打聽，他說原來答應的是這個土地不會劃成國一的，後來也都變成國一了，即他說不會這樣，結果通通被劃成國一。而且在你們現在的辦法裡面，你知道你們的圖是怎麼劃出來的嗎？你們是用套圖欸！鄉親還告訴我，你們都沒有來實際的場勘，都沒有實際找專業人士來探勘，就說他的土地是國一就是國一，而且他說縣府就是用資料套圖嘛！你們就是大筆一揮。而且不到兩公頃的地方，不是國一的也可以劃為國一，就是為了讓劃起來的圖更好看、更完整。","我要告訴院長、部長的是，財產涉及到每一個人民，是他最在乎的事情，但這件事情我們絕對不可以便宜行事。"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["王委員育敏：也不可以非常粗糙、粗暴地就直接以套圖的方式，然後就判定他的土地是屬於什麼。農民是可以被溝通的，也是可以被說服的，我很感動的是他們熱愛那個地方，想要好好經營，並不是想要去圖利、變賣土地什麼的……"],["劉部長世芳：對。"],["王委員育敏：國一這邊有很多的農民，他們是想要好好留在原地耕作，好好保護這塊土地，他們也知道水保的重要，但是他說：可不可以給我們一條路？在兼顧保育、水保跟產業發展之間，給他們一條路可以走，可不可以？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，非常謝謝您的關心，委員講的非常正確，阿里山這些農民朋友們知道國土保育跟他們鄉街發展兩個都要並重。所以我剛才跟您提到，第一個，沒有到現場會勘，也表示功能分區圖送上來的時候，我們還沒有完全審查。完成審查作業的情況之下，如果農民有意見，我們接到意見後馬上要去進行，以確定是不是真的是國土保育所需要的，如果沒有，隨便亂畫，我們也不希望用這種比較粗糙的方式來處理功能分區圖。所以我剛才有跟委員報告，現在縣政府跟我們正在處理有關阿里山鄉鄉村地區的整體作業，就是要回復剛剛所說的阿里山居民們對這方面的疑慮，我們願意很誠懇來回答這個問題，因為我們相信，阿里山鄉的這些朋友們不是為了炒作農地，也不是財團炒作，而都是祖先留下來的……"],["王委員育敏：是。"],["劉部長世芳：而且他們更了解現場狀況！如果他願意把現場狀況告訴我們，讓我們套疊在我們所知道的現在地質上的變化，如果沒有真正屬於潛在危險區或是環境敏感區的話，就不應該用這樣比較粗糙的方式，全部一塊劃進去。"],["王委員育敏：部長，我問你，補救措施要怎麼做？我9月份到現場時，根本沒有這樣的作法，也沒有這樣的說明。他們告訴我，縣府已經把功能分區圖送上來，他們這邊就是國一，所以他們非常焦慮。"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，從總質詢開始的第一天到現在，很多委員都關心過國土計畫法這件事。蔡易餘委員第一天也提過這件事情，所以我特別去了解。現在嘉義縣政府在辦理剛剛部長說的阿里山鄉村地區整體規劃作業，目前嘉義縣政府按照各地的需求，應該是有計畫在這裡做各地因地制宜的使用管制規則。況且功能圖送上來之後，內政部還要做第二次審查，這個我們會更嚴謹地進行。"],["王委員育敏：對，現在你們最大的問題是細膩度完全不夠，因為急著明年4月要上路。部長，你們該完成的子法中，現在還有八項只完成預告，都還沒有經過你們法規會的審議。"],["劉部長世芳：預告就表示已經經過我們法規會的審議，只有一項是屬於土地管制上需要的罰則部分，我認為罰則部分要儘量往後延，所以只有一項還沒有處理。"],["王委員育敏：所以你還沒有完成程序啊。"],["劉部長世芳：公告需要長達60天以上時間。"],["王委員育敏：是啊，所以在子法都還沒有正式完成公告之前就急著上路！我要問你的一個問題是，到目前為止，22個縣市首長裡，有哪幾位首長支持國土計畫法在明年4月如期上路？"],["劉部長世芳：現在送到內政部來的一共有13個縣市政府。"],["王委員育敏：是啊。"],["劉部長世芳：對。"],["王委員育敏：所以沒有送上來的……送上來就代表它認同嗎？其實嘉義縣的翁章梁縣長真的認同嗎？他在上半年曾經發表過一個談話，希望國土計畫法延期上路。他是送上來了，但你真的認為送上來的縣市首長希望國土計畫法明年如期上路嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我想翁縣長的本意是希望我們有完整的配套措施，而這個完整的配套措施……"],["王委員育敏：現在就還沒有啊！"],["劉部長世芳：內政部跟農業部要能夠一起進行……"],["王委員育敏：現在就是還沒有。"],["劉部長世芳：這一點我們會努力來改進。"],["王委員育敏：所以我覺得這件事情真的可以再好好去跟鄉親溝通。院長，我要告訴你的是：人真的很重要。像嘉義縣這樣的地方多數被劃在國土保育區，但如果因為這樣就沒有辦法有生計、產業也無法發展，我覺得這樣是不對的！我們應該可以在保育跟生計、跟產業發展之間找到一條路，一條平衡的道路，讓這件事情更圓滿上路，而不是讓鄉親們充滿了焦慮。你知道嗎？到目前為止，鄉親還會一直問我：委員，國土計畫法真的要如期上路嗎？我們怎麼辦？每天都生活在這種焦慮感裡面。院長，我覺得你有責任，你應該要拍板，你應該不要讓這些鄉親充滿焦慮！如果現在還沒有做足準備，為什麼一定要明年如期上路？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，國家必須要有必要的、充足的農地來從事生產，這個原則我們定下來。再來，任何一個法律，如果讓農民或是國人的土地因為一個法律讓他們像委員所說的沒有辦法做其他的使用或限制太強，我想這個法律本身就值得我們來深思熟慮，所以整個執行的過程，我還是希望能跟農民朋友說清楚、講明白，到底農民的權益受損跟沒有受損在哪裡，讓農民能夠完全支持之後，這個法才有辦法有效的上路。當然，地方政府的配合也是極其需要的。"],["王委員育敏：好，我在這邊有三個建議，第一個，我希望這個法要暫緩實施，先溝通，先溝通再上路。第二個，是不是可以請部長到第一線去聽聽鄉親真正的意見，到目前為止，我想你得到的都是間接式的傳達上來，到目前為止，你有到第一線去開過任何一場公聽會，真的聽到農民第一線的心聲嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我們大概是跟一些團體，然後跟縣市政府一起開會，在中部地區有開過……"],["王委員育敏：有沒有跟農民面對面的？"],["劉部長世芳：農會有，農民比較沒有。"],["王委員育敏：農民沒有嘛，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：對，沒有。"],["王委員育敏：我真的強烈建議部長，你可以到第一線去……"],["劉部長世芳：好，我會去。"],["王委員育敏：你聽到的就會是最真實的聲音，如果你願意到嘉義縣來的話，本席也願意陪你一起來聽這些農民的聲音。"],["劉部長世芳：我來安排。"],["王委員育敏：你看你的時間。","農民的生計和產業的發展真的非常的重要，我覺得他們都非常辛苦，所以我希望我們以人為施政優先的目標，要把農民澈澈底底放在心上，照顧他們的權益，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的，謝謝委員。"],["王委員育敏：接下來我要再問的一樣是關於國土的問題，但是是不一樣的情景，我們現在在推動光電是如火如荼，一方面我們重視國土保育，但是對於光電業者其實是毫不設防，他們好像想怎麼蓋、愛怎麼蓋統統都沒有問題，甚至部長你是不是有quota的壓力，所以連你自己所掌管的國家公園一開始都還要去大量鋪設光電板，是不是？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，這個完全錯誤。第一個，我們現在國家公園有管理中心，就是在國家公園裏面，但是他們在重建或建造的過程中，他們用的是燃油發電機，這些對於國家公園來講，我們要求的是碳排，所以我要求國家公園管理中心自己本身的房舍或民宿等地方未來就是要用太陽能發電，減少到處設立一些電線桿要從臺灣的平地上輸送電到上面去，只是這樣而已，沒有其他的任何計畫……"],["王委員育敏：不會再擴大嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我們七、八個國家公園裏面所產生的碳排量總共就三千多噸而已，其實並不多，我想外界做太擴大的解釋，對於未來我們在國家公園的管理上面反而是很大的困擾，這點也請委員幫我們澄清。"],["王委員育敏：好，因為你們這樣子，連環團都跳出來講話了……"],["劉部長世芳：沒有、沒有，環團是支持我們的。"],["王委員育敏：好，所以這個部分，我希望要有把關的機制。","另外一個，我要跟院長，也是人民要跟院長請命，在嘉義縣有個地方叫做大埔，大埔這個地方我想兩位可能還沒機會上到這麼遠的地方，曾文水庫有部分就是在大埔鄉。大埔的居民現在也是一樣很困擾，就是在他們熱愛的這片土地上，光電業者進來了，不需要經過他們的同意，這些光電板愛怎鋪設就怎鋪設，愛怎麼蓋就怎麼蓋，蓋到連當地的議員、議會都做成決議要求光電業者要停工，可是有沒有效？沒有強制力欸！沒有效！他繼續施工、繼續蓋，然後議員帶著鄉親到現場去抗議、到嘉義縣政府去抗議，有沒有效？沒有效，縣長說那就請光電業者和居民多溝通。你知道他蓋到怎樣的情況嗎？這個圖讓院長跟部長看一下，這是人民的苦啊，光電板布滿了學校跟老人活動中心的旁邊，你看到的這個建築物的裡面是有在供餐的，是老人的食堂，旁邊統統都是光電板，不是在屋頂發電，是旁邊布滿光電板，居民非常的無力，然後去抗議也統統都沒有用，這個業者我想可能他也是仿造臺南有個弊案，小二甲弊案，這個院長應該非常清楚，當時就是要規避嘛，所以一塊一塊的，聽說這一案也是，就是不同的，以為是在自家屋頂蓋光電板，所以沒有問題，也不需要太多審查，結果以化整為零的模式，一個一個進來就變成這樣一大片，這個也沒有環境評估。他的光害，你可以看到嘛，這麼大片的光電板，不是在屋頂，而是在比較低的地方，陽光一照射產生的光害，這也沒有辦法管，然後現在極端氣候產生的熱島效應，整個熱氣上來，也沒有辦法管，請問這個怎麼辦？人民怎麼辦？人民要跟誰求助？地方政府看起來也沒有辦法！"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，我們在各地農民、漁民的種電的過程中，我上次到臺南去有特別提到農漁要優先，照顧大家的權益，所以我們提出制度要透明、過程要簡化，如果有不法，我們有一個綠能犯罪平臺，希望大家來檢舉，甚至我們說公私部門，法務部跟各地的地方政府也要合作，針對這些不法，這件看起來就算不是不法，也是有不當的問題。"],["王委員育敏：對啊，那怎麼辦呢？這是嚴重的不當啊！然後我覺得老百姓真的很苦耶，求助縣府也沒有用，縣議會都已經要求他停工，但是也約束不了，我們中央沒有任何一個部會有辦法管他的，內政部受理人民陳情，內政部管嗎？我們現在中央根本沒有一個，就是當地方都無能為力的時候，請問院長，中央有哪個部會可以受理人民的陳情？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在就有一個平臺，這個平臺雖然是犯罪的平臺，但如果說……"],["王委員育敏：不是犯罪啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：對，我說有一個受理犯罪的平臺。另外就是我們也希望地方政府能夠負起責任，比方說我那天到臺南就發現養殖面積現在還有2萬多公頃可以做，我說不需要這麼多，我們把不適合開放的地方縮起來，希望以後不要造成這樣的現象，但是已經發生的可能有契約的問題或現在在進行當中，能不能進行一個有效的，讓現在的光害或傷害能夠減少……"],["王委員育敏：院長，我就問你，像這樣的情況，我看到幾個問題，第一個，光電業者要設置光電板完全不需要居民的同意，以我剛剛給你看的這張圖，那個看起來就是很離譜，但是他完全不需要當地居民的同意，只要有辦法取得用地就可以蓋，這個怎麼辦？我記得雲林縣縣長也曾經反映過，就是在現在的評估裡面都不需要有居民同意的這一項，結果人民就束手無策啊，因為不需要經過我們的同意啊！光電業者只要有辦法取得土地，愛怎麼蓋就怎麼蓋，所以我覺得這個部分應該要讓居民有同意權。","第二個，民生聚落當中，學校、醫院、老人長照中心附近，這附近可以這樣子嗎？可以如入無人之境的鋪滿光電板嗎？這部分完全沒有設光電板面積的上限，這完全不符合比例嘛！我們當時鼓勵設置光電是在空曠的、大範圍的，而且不是在農業用地上大量鋪設，這種已經是社區式的民宅，他還不是在每個人的住家上的屋頂……"],["卓院長榮泰：屋頂型。"],["王委員育敏：他不是屋頂，而是在旁邊的空地上面鋪滿光電板，這樣可以嗎？","第三個，人民沒有求助的管道，中央到目前為止，我看不到任何一個部會可以受理人民陳情，經濟部不用講，它是跟光電業者一起的，他們要共同開發，那還有哪個部會可以受理人民的陳情？像這樣子求助無門耶！","院長，我希望你回去之後是不是可以研議或開會討論一下，如果地方還有這種爭議，人民求助無門的，你應該指定一個部會、指定一個窗口來受理這樣的案件吧，這樣才是真的把人民放在你的心上。"],["卓院長榮泰：當年我們是鼓勵屋頂型跟地上型，地上型的地點應該不容許這樣看到哪裡就設到哪裡，很多……"],["王委員育敏：現在就是這樣啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：對於居住環境，甚至交通安全的顧慮都必須要有的，這個我會請經濟部來做個廣泛性的檢討，希望委員把這個個案的地點告訴我們，我們來了解。"],["王委員育敏：好，我一定會告訴你，這個是大埔鄉民的一個痛。","接下來這個案子，我希望部長和院長真的要好好正視、處理，剛剛上午我聽到院長回答委員質詢的時候有說其實一塊錢都不能浪費，我也很同意，但是一塊錢都不能浪費，在內政部審理的計畫案當中，我就看到了疑似有圖利的情況，這個要好好的嚴查嚴辦。我先請教部長，內政部「永續提升人行安全計畫」，現在總共送出來的計畫有幾案，你知道嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：全國各縣市相當的多，但是我們通過的沒有那麼多，因為現在只剩下下半年的時間而已。"],["王委員育敏：對，送了262案，你只通過175案，高達27億。這是全國競爭型的，這個人行安全計畫是有急迫性的要優先補助，卓院長你說要建立一個以人為本的交通環境，我們就來看接下來這個案子。表格上面這十件案子當中，有一件是道路改善工程計畫，你們核定了1,500萬，其他所有的案子都是通學步道，都是國中、國小或是人行道的改善，其中有一案通過了1,500萬，它是道路改善工程計畫。","我讓兩位看一下這個圖，它要改善什麼樣的道路呢？這個是在嘉義縣水上鄉，大家看到這個圖，這個道路旁有一間私人的殯儀館正在興建當中，他要改善的這個道路旁邊都沒有住家，也沒有學校，從旁邊的實照圖看起來也沒有商圈，更不是都市計畫區之內。這個地方我有實地去看了一下，我最近常常在跑嘉義，所以我有去看，不要說行人，連車輛都很少，然後就是有一間興建中的私人殯儀館，不知道它的急迫性在哪裡？","這個計畫是以人為本，基本上要有一些行人，對不對？看起來這是非常偏僻的一個地方。重點是在審查會議的時候審查委員的意見，這部分兩位聽一下，有委員說現地人車流量低、交通量低，表示說沒什麼人也沒什麼車；然後有委員說建議考量人行通道的連續性，因為看起來它不是連續性的行人通道；更有委員說，基地位於都市計畫區外，周邊土地使用非居民的聚居地，因為真的旁邊沒有人，不知道為什麼要做；還有委員說，應該確認民眾支援的需求性有多高，也就是不知道它的需求性在哪裡；然後也有委員提到，擋土牆的費用占總經費的四分之一，當地使用率偏低；最後一個委員說的這個很關鍵，本案似乎是以道路拓寬為主要目的。","請教院長，如果一個案子是以道路拓寬為主要目的，當地不是都市計畫區內，也不是學校，也沒有人行通道，然後有一個興建中的殯儀館，這個案子為什麼可以通過？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，您提到的這部分，我們來查一下，因為計畫審查的過程當中，通常我們會委託學者專家，他所提的這個案件送到我們內政部的國土署，在審查的過程當中，為什麼最後是核定1,500萬？您剛有提到擋土牆，其實在人行道的安全上面，擋土牆確實是有必要的，但是如果它是以道路拓寬為主要目的的話，可能跟你剛剛所說的是競爭型計畫完全不太相關，讓我們有時間來查一下，再跟委員報告，好嗎？"],["王委員育敏：我希望院長可以回答一下。院長，你這樣聽完有沒有覺得，你說一塊錢都不應該浪費嘛？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["王委員育敏：那一塊錢都不應該去圖利私人的業者。這個案子，如果你是審查委員的話，聽到審查委員講了這麼多，連計畫的名稱都跟原來要改善人行安全通通無關，它的計畫就大喇喇的寫著道路改善工程，這樣的案子送上來，在審查會議當中，如果你作為會議主席，你會讓這樣的案子過嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，謝謝委員。審查委員當然是秉於專業來看交通的設施，但是……"],["王委員育敏：他也提出很多意見。"],["卓院長榮泰：當事者也一定有提出他的需求，我想還是請內政部去了解一下審查的過程，甚至地方政府為何提出這樣的一個需求，他真正的用意、目的到底在哪裡？我們要了解之後，才讓這個補助能夠有效或是考慮做其他的執行，但是一定要聽聽當事者對地方政府提出的需求跟理由。"],["王委員育敏：你不覺得這個當中有很大的弊端存在嗎？怎麼會這麼的奇怪呢？其他的案子都很正常，我想改善通學步道也是落實你說的以人為本嘛！真的有人潮，我們才來做這件事嘛！但是沒有的，為什麼可以送上這樣的一個案子？而且還通過了。"],["卓院長榮泰：在這個時間點我還不敢下這麼大的斷語，但是……"],["王委員育敏：那你要不要查？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個有必要讓我們的內政部去了解……"],["王委員育敏：院長，我問你，你要不要去澈查？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，我會請內政部去完全充分了解。"],["王委員育敏：要調查吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：要，要查。"],["劉部長世芳：要查。"],["王委員育敏：要好好的調查吧！我再提供一個資訊給你參考，這一個殯儀館現在在興建當中，過去它其實在地方上有一些爭議，它是山坡地保育區變更為殯葬用地，而且它很巧妙的規避了1萬平方公尺需要環評的規定，就是9,987平方公尺，這當中當然還涉及了一個部分，就是過去這個企業其實曾經停業，然後又變成另外一家公司，而且過去在另外一家企業的時候，還有當時時任立委的子女在裡面擔任董事，這個在地方上面大家議論紛紛。我不知道這一件事情跟這一家殯儀館到底有沒有關係，但是我們再回放剛剛給大家看的那個圖，這個實景圖就是長這樣子，這個可能你們要好好去調查到底這當中有沒有什麼相關聯，因為真的路上就是沒有住家跟商圈，沒有行人跟車流，它就不是在都市計畫，它改善的路段為什麼是人行安全，我不懂，沒有人在行走的，為什麼是改善人行安全呢？我們真的就只有看到一家私人殯儀館還在興建當中，那這當中不曉得有沒有任何的關係，所以我今天利用總質詢，因為院長在，我也希望讓院長可以了解有這樣的情況，你有說過一塊錢都不應該浪費，我認為一塊錢也都不應該去圖利私人，如果有圖利的行為，這是絕對不允許的。以剛剛講的這些計畫當中，送來那麼多案子，有262案，只通過175案，我不知道這當中還有多少真正要改善人行道、行人安全的計畫被排除在外，結果你們通過了一件這種跟這個八竿子打不著的，這個道路拓寬計畫的案子夾雜在裡面，而且經費還高達1,500萬。對於這件案子，院長是不是承諾你真的會好好地去調查？你讓人民知道真相到底是什麼好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：我會請內政部好好去了解這個事情，在了解之後馬上向委員說明。"],["王委員育敏：好，我希望院長好好把事情的來龍去脈調查清楚，我們也不允許這樣的情況存在，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好的。"],["王委員育敏：謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員，謝謝卓院長。","下一位我們請王世堅委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":187,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-3","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","麥玉珍","沈伯洋","廖先翔","葉元之","黃仁","牛煦庭","王育敏","王世堅","高金素梅","盧縣一","邱議瑩","吳沛憶","王美惠","馬文君","林岱樺","徐巧芯"],"page_start":107,"meetingDate":["2024-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1137701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第3次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1137701_00007"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}